Zenimax v Oculus Raging with Carmack

FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
54,441
UploadVR has a bit wider coverage on the Zenimax v Oculus case going on in Federal Court here in Dallas. Carmack copped to taking the files in question but does not cop to "stealing" those files. I know if I walk out of the Stop-N-Rob down on the corner with a 40oz, the cops are not going to cut me a lot of slack just because I have not popped it open. Of course this is a civil case about damages, not a criminal trial. Still, it will be interesting to see what decisions are made based on the fact that he had the files in question in his possession.

According to Gizmodo, Carmack said, “I copied files that I shouldn’t have. I think stealing is an uncharitable way to look at it since I didn’t benefit and ZeniMax didn’t lose, but I shouldn’t have done it, and I did.” Beth Wilkinson, Oculus’ lawyer, also said Carmack shouldn’t have copied the files, and that he turned everything in within a year of the litigation being filed.

This is what is at the crux of the matter.

Sammi’s questions focused on the allegations that Carmack used ZeniMax-owned computers to work on the Oculus Rift, took thousands of files and emails via USB drive upon leaving the company in 2013, played a role in soliciting five employees from id Software, and used “VR testbed” code to benefit the Oculus Rift. Carmack said he found a MacBook in his closet which contained code from id’s RAGE, and copied files and emails owned by ZeniMax.


Of course, the fact that RAGE is involved somehow is enough for me to suggest they lock him up. It's been 5 years and I still want my money back.
 
I don't keep many personal files at all at work, but the ones I do have, and occasionally work on (during downtime) I keep in a virtual box VM on the desktop. If I need to copy or get rid of it, it's a single tidy little package. I also don't keep any company files inside the VM.
 
purefun65 said:
So he had files. Case closed in my eyes.
Click to expand...

It's a bit of stretch to go from "he took some files that he had access to while he worked for us" to "Oculus owes us everything! We're the rightful owners of VR! Pay us $2 billion!"

ZeniMax is butt hurt that they were too shortsighted to see the potential in VR and that shortsightedness cost them one of the best game coders out there. They figured out their mistake too late and are now out for blood and Carmack was their convenient way in.

I am not an Oculus fan (they've pulled too much anti-consumer bullshit at this point for me to care what happens to them) but Zenimax deserves to be curb stomped.

And RAGE was a decent game. Granted I paid $10 for it and got about that much worth out of it.
 
RAGE was a decent game. If you're going to lock someone up for making a shitty game lock up Randy Pitchford for DNF.
 
NeoNemesis said:
RAGE was a decent game. If you're going to lock someone up for making a shitty game lock up Randy Pitchford for DNF.
Click to expand...

I've had some differences with Randy in the past, (worked on Halo PC) and he can be a total goofball, but I can't really put DNF on him. That disaster was all 3D Realms. Randy just made it available, and put some finishing touches on it, so it could be released at all. I can think of worse releases...
 
Dwango said:
It's a bit of stretch to go from "he took some files that he had access to while he worked for us" to "Oculus owes us everything! We're the rightful owners of VR! Pay us $2 billion!"

ZeniMax is butt hurt that they were too shortsighted to see the potential in VR and that shortsightedness cost them one of the best game coders out there. They figured out their mistake too late and are now out for blood and Carmack was their convenient way in.

I am not an Oculus fan (they've pulled too much anti-consumer bullshit at this point for me to care what happens to them) but Zenimax deserves to be curb stomped.

And RAGE was a decent game. Granted I paid $10 for it and got about that much worth out of it.
Click to expand...
He took files that belong to ZeniMax. I have been on civil jury cases. Guilty is my vote.
 
purefun65 said:
He took files that belong to ZeniMax. I have been on civil jury cases. Guilty is my vote.
Click to expand...

I would agree in a technical sense. In a realistic view on humans sense though, I don't know many people who wouldn't want to take some of their work, contacts, correspondence, etc. with them when they leave a company. People do it all the time. That doesn't make it legal, and in some cases may even be morally bankrupt, but I'd say there's a bit more grey to the practice. I'm not 100% up on this case, just casually follow it. If he took files that are directly Zenimax IP from an actual product or secret project then, yeah, that wasn't smart. If they're something he was working on in more of a private capacity, but still on premises on company machines then I actually am more in favor of his case. I know that's against most companies' policies, and that legally he probably still isn't in a good position, but on a personal level, I'd totally side with him on that.
 
prime2515102 said:
That's what he gets for for deserting ID. I hope he goes to prison. <sniffle>
Click to expand...

:D

I agree and disagree. He seems to be the type to get bored if he keeps doing the same thing for too long. If you're stuck doing something you don't want to do the results will diminish over time. Also, take a look at what they did without him. Doom 2016! The game is incredible, and the engine is as good as any they've ever done. Granted, it was built upon a lot of his previous work. I think they'll do just fine. The fact that they're also collaborating with ex-Starbreeze people in the form of Machine Games is another good sign. These groups can code.
 
J3RK said:
I've had some differences with Randy in the past, (worked on Halo PC) and he can be a total goofball, but I can't really put DNF on him. That disaster was all 3D Realms. Randy just made it available, and put some finishing touches on it, so it could be released at all. I can think of worse releases...
Click to expand...

Problem is that I trusted him before that and ended up buying the game because of his backing.

He's dead to me now.
 
J3RK said:
RAGE is good. It's a good game.

:p

We've disagreed on this before. I won't change your mind, but it's pretty fun. Still play it now and then.
Click to expand...

I liked RAGE a lot when I picked it up a few years ago. It was like DOOM 3 meets Borderlands 1. Loved those boomerangs.

I understand everyone lost their minds when it first launched due to technical issues, but plays great now.
 
Last edited:
J3RK said:
I would agree in a technical sense. In a realistic view on humans sense though, I don't know many people who wouldn't want to take some of their work, contacts, correspondence, etc. with them when they leave a company. People do it all the time. That doesn't make it legal, and in some cases may even be morally bankrupt, but I'd say there's a bit more grey to the practice. I'm not 100% up on this case, just casually follow it. If he took files that are directly Zenimax IP from an actual product or secret project then, yeah, that wasn't smart. If they're something he was working on in more of a private capacity, but still on premises on company machines then I actually am more in favor of his case. I know that's against most companies' policies, and that legally he probably still isn't in a good position, but on a personal level, I'd totally side with him on that.
Click to expand...

What a strange response...please never be on my jury. :)
 
purefun65 said:
He took files that belong to ZeniMax. I have been on civil jury cases. Guilty is my vote.
Click to expand...

Then you are a shitty juror. While Carmack can be sued for breech of contract for walking off with anything, that doesn't appear to be the argument here. The argument is that he stole IP/code and raided employees, and that both of those contributed in such a way that everything rift is a product of those actions.

If Carmack copied a bunch of source code to something non rift related, or his time reporting, then that argument, at least on that point means jack shit. It's all about WHAT he took with him. The simple act of taking comes down to suing him over his employment contract and or criminal charges of theft.

As for the stealing of talent, once again, employment contract. Were they violating non-competes, and can you prove they used privileged knowledge of zenimax IP to benefit rift?

Is there likely some degree of culpability, yeah. $2 billion worth? Unlikely, and that's what the trial is about more than likely. That and possibly who owns the IP for patent fights with other VR hardware makers.

Going against oculus is the fact carmack knows shit and they hired a number of zenimax employess anb carmack stole stuff.

Going against zenimax is the fact that the industry lives and dies by terms of employment contracts, and they haven't named any individuals as co-defendants or appear to be suing them separately unless the news is falling down on the job and not reporting it.
 
LonerVamp said:
What a strange response...please never be on my jury. :)
Click to expand...

No problem. If I can coast through life without ever setting foot in a jury box, I will be a happy person. :D

I don't think it's all that strange trying to pick apart some of the factors, grey areas, and try to separate the legalities from ethical aspects. They don't all mesh perfectly together. My response was a bit disjointed. (I'm at work right now...) However, I don't view a lot of things as black and white. I need a lot more information before I could make a guilty/innocent sort of judgement call on something like this. They wouldn't let me on the Jury anyway, because I like John, hate facebook, hate Zenimax but love many of the companies that Zenimax owns. That's not very impartial.

I also have the privilege as a private citizen not serving on this jury to think about it like this. What has John Carmack done for me? He played a pivotal role in bringing some of my favorite gaming experiences of all time into existence, pushing the industry forward by leaps and bounds at the same time. (sure there were others with similar honors in my mind, but he's one of the biggest)

What has Zenimax done? They buy up studios, for better or worse, toss around frivolous (in my personal opinion) lawsuits like suing Mojang over the word "Scrolls". The only good thing I see is that they provide funding to some of my current favorite game studios, so I guess I can't complain too badly.

Facebook (as the owner of Oculus)? Absolutely nothing. I don't own Oculus hardware, have never had (and likely never will have) a Facebook account, nor does anything they do provide any real benefit IMO. The only good thing during this scenario I can see is that they're backing up Carmack.

So, yeah. Heavily biased opinion from someone who has no bearing on this case. :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Texas is a Right To Work State, so non-competes are virtually worthless there. They might be able to get back some cash for violating the terms of any golden handcuff type incentives he had but most likely that has already been handled and is chump change next to the billions they are seeking.

The files could be worth some damages, should highly depend on what is in them. The fact that there was a functional HMD before Carmack got involved (and was why he did get involved) makes me think there is no good justification for the billions they want.
 
It will be hard to prove that he copied a bunch of files and then didn't use them, and since this is a civil case not a criminal one, it is up to Oculus/Facebook to somehow prove that they never touched the files in question. However, I don't think ZeniMax will get the full $2 Billion, but they will get paid. Oculus just needs to hope that a win in the civil court doesn't cause ZeniMax to move to push for an injunction on making and shipping units.
 
Accursed said:
I couldn't get past how ugly the game looked, that whole debacle on the texture files. I'm with Kyle on this one.
Click to expand...

There are some textures in the game that aren't great. The bulk of them are in the indoor/underground areas. However, in motion, taken as a whole, the game is gorgeous. The only time I notice the shittier end of the textures is when I stop and stare at them. The game is silky smooth, the action is constant and consistent, and the visuals are actually very very good taken as a whole and in context. Some of the artwork is actually quite incredible. The size and scale of some of the locations, machinery, bosses, etc. and the fluidity of the animation can be pretty breathtaking.

The only way I could see someone having the opinion that you do, is if they sought out the bad textures, then stood still, and sat there stewing in it. If you just played the game, I think you'd have another opinion. I could be wrong in your case, and there are definitely people out there that agree with you 100%. However, having played the game through many times, I can confidently say that the game is one of the better looking ones out there, and is a blast to play. The only real complaint I had was the truncated final area/missions. However the DLC missions made up for that.
 
J3RK said:
The only way I could see someone having the opinion that you do, is if they sought out the bad textures, then stood still, and sat there stewing in it. If you just played the game, I think you'd have another opinion. I could be wrong in your case, and there are definitely people out there that agree with you 100% .
Click to expand...

My experience was "Ohh look, Rage is on sale", load it up and look around "wtf? Why does it look all blurry and weird", research a little online and read about texture problems. Try a few fixes, eventually loose interest before I ever really got going in the game. So many games, so little time....

Now a days I would have hit the refund button on Steam and called it a day.

But glad your experience was better, glad some enjoyed it. Doom has been great.
 
TroubleMagnet said:
Texas is a Right To Work State, so non-competes are virtually worthless there. They might be able to get back some cash for violating the terms of any golden handcuff type incentives he had but most likely that has already been handled and is chump change next to the billions they are seeking.

The files could be worth some damages, should highly depend on what is in them. The fact that there was a functional HMD before Carmack got involved (and was why he did get involved) makes me think there is no good justification for the billions they want.
Click to expand...

just like anything else, you ask for more than what you want and have room for negations. If you want to sell something like a car you price it high knowing people will offer less.
 
Shmee said:
It will be hard to prove that he copied a bunch of files and then didn't use them,
Click to expand...
Exactly. It's shocking that anyone would try and defend the argument that Carmack was working with a company's proprietary information, left the company, "found" the laptop in his closet, copied files off it, and then spun a company using his previous employer's IP.

Just for further laughs, as for the notion that it could have been contacts and emails and whatnot, since this was a MacBook that was all in iCloud. The files he copied off the computer were related to the work he had been doing in the company. No reasonable juror is going to be able to overcome that common sense conclusion during deliberations even if by some bizarre occurrence that's not what actually happened.
 
raz-0 said:
Then you are a shitty juror. While Carmack can be sued for breech of contract for walking off with anything, that doesn't appear to be the argument here. The argument is that he stole IP/code and raided employees, and that both of those contributed in such a way that everything rift is a product of those actions.

If Carmack copied a bunch of source code to something non rift related, or his time reporting, then that argument, at least on that point means jack shit. It's all about WHAT he took with him. The simple act of taking comes down to suing him over his employment contract and or criminal charges of theft.

As for the stealing of talent, once again, employment contract. Were they violating non-competes, and can you prove they used privileged knowledge of zenimax IP to benefit rift?

Is there likely some degree of culpability, yeah. $2 billion worth? Unlikely, and that's what the trial is about more than likely. That and possibly who owns the IP for patent fights with other VR hardware makers.

Going against oculus is the fact carmack knows shit and they hired a number of zenimax employess anb carmack stole stuff.

Going against zenimax is the fact that the industry lives and dies by terms of employment contracts, and they haven't named any individuals as co-defendants or appear to be suing them separately unless the news is falling down on the job and not reporting it.
Click to expand...
You have never served as a juror on a civil case. That i would make a shitty juror says you dont understand the law is very different from a criminal case. You dont need 12 unanimous for a guilty verdict in a civil case, so you can vote not guilty and still be overruled by us remaining jurors. The last one I was on was 10 guilty 2 non and they were found liable.
 
Last edited:
I think it all comes down to what the files are. If they're old archived company emails, they might have nothing to do with VR. If it's Rage source code, it doesn't have anything to do with VR. Either way Oculus had hardware designed and well beyond the prototype stage well before Carmack went to work for them.
 
Burticus said:
I think it all comes down to what the files are. If they're old archived company emails, they might have nothing to do with VR. If it's Rage source code, it doesn't have anything to do with VR. Either way Oculus had hardware designed and well beyond the prototype stage well before Carmack went to work for them.
Click to expand...
If just one file or email has anything tied to ZeniMax claim. CASE CLOSED! That is the law. You dont need a per ponderous of evidence.The fact he admitted he copied files and he did not return the laptop. I guess he knew if he perjured himself and denied any such action it would be a very serious problem.
 
Last edited:
purefun65 said:
If just one file or email has anything tied to ZeniMax claim. CASE CLOSED! That is the law. You dont need a per ponderous of evidence.The fact he admitted he copied files and he did not return the laptop. I guess he knew if he perjured himself and denied any such action it would be a very serious problem.
Click to expand...
Sounds like they were asking questions that they already had evidence of and he recognized the jig was up so he came clean. I mean we all know deep down inside Zen doesnt deserve anything even if he built the entire rift SDK in his office at iD. It was his creation done outside of company purview. But if they lose the case over it so be it. Honestly I dont think VR is ever going to take off in any meaningful way anyway, so whatever Zen stands to gain from this wont be worth much in 10 years.
 
Here is the thing i learned being on civil jury's. One word MONEY. That is how it works. If you are not involved in a violent action. Its all about money That is it if you are guilty of criminal actions they dont care unless you cant pay. Not to say that is the rule. Predominately iti s. The last was just pure hell the lawyers went on and on about shit archaic laws about crap that bored us jurors to sleep. 2 weeks of hell to deliberated a 10 to 2 verdict because the 2 hold outs were asleep half of the trial. We gave up and knew we needed only10 and fucked them so we could go home.
 
Last edited:
nysmo said:
Sounds like they were asking questions that they already had evidence of and he recognized the jig was up so he came clean. I mean we all know deep down inside Zen doesnt deserve anything even if he built the entire rift SDK in his office at iD. It was his creation done outside of company purview. But if they lose the case over it so be it. Honestly I dont think VR is ever going to take off in any meaningful way anyway, so whatever Zen stands to gain from this wont be worth much in 10 years.
Click to expand...

There is a slight issue here. He was being paid by Zenimax to make a VR headset. So can you say that if you are paying somebody to make a VR headset, and they take the files about your VR headset and then they make a VR headset of their own and sell it that they used zero knowledge that you paid them to create in making that new VR headset? That is what is at trail here. The fact that Zenimax was working on a VR headset, if they gave up on the idea or not isn't at trial here. It is that they had paid people to work on developing one and that one of the people leading the project then turned around and gave information to a competitor to make one, then left to join the competitor.

Lets say that that head of Sony's PlayStation R&D team started to help somebody making a new console and then left to join that company, then a month later they released a console that could play PS1 - PS4 games perfectly knowing how to perfectly emulate the systems while having perfect copies of their OSs. Then a month later you find out that they took with them when they left a copy of the entire source code for all the systems. Would you see that as no problem and not a theft of IP and just somebody deciding that they wanted to make their own PlayStation console on their own time? That is the type of thing at trial here.

As for what they get not being worth anything in 10 year. They are looking for money, not the technology back. The money will be worth something in 10 years. Not as much as today as the value of the dollar does decrease every year just because of normal things. But $2 billion today would still be worth something in 10 years. Might only around $1.68 Billion but that is still far from worthless.
 
ok this is funny i live in Pennsylvania. I was in civil court and i said hey bailiff. He said im not a bailiff im a tipstaff. WTF is a tipstaff? Our job title comes from early america when we would use a long stick and poke sleeping jurors. true story
 
I played through RAGE again a few months ago. Even on a modern system with an NVMe SSD you still get popin when you turn around quickly. It doesn't really play better than it did back then.

However, I think the game is really fun and enjoy playing it.
 
Dwango said:
It's a bit of stretch to go from "he took some files that he had access to while he worked for us" to "Oculus owes us everything! We're the rightful owners of VR! Pay us $2 billion!"

ZeniMax is butt hurt that they were too shortsighted to see the potential in VR and that shortsightedness cost them one of the best game coders out there. They figured out their mistake too late and are now out for blood and Carmack was their convenient way in.

I am not an Oculus fan (they've pulled too much anti-consumer bullshit at this point for me to care what happens to them) but Zenimax deserves to be curb stomped.

And RAGE was a decent game. Granted I paid $10 for it and got about that much worth out of it.
Click to expand...
He took their IP, its on them to somehow demonstrate they didn't reverse engineer it or gain insights from it. That would be almost impossible to prove. Case closed.
 
Stuff like this has happened before. Sergey Aleynikov did something similar with Goldman Sachs source code, which was primarily open source, modified for GS. He was convicted (this was a criminal rather than civil trial). It was appealed, and the he was cleared, but NY is appealing the appeal. I think many of you are placing far too much competence on the quality of the jury that will exist in the Zenimax trial.
 
Exavior said:
There is a slight issue here. He was being paid by Zenimax to make a VR headset.
Click to expand...
What it sounds like really happened here is they paid a guy to make a VR headset, and they gave him a paperclip, some chewed gum and a shoelace as tools to do it. Palmer Lucky comes along with a fully functional prototype and no software, so John joins forces with him having all the tools at his disposal to make this thing work. Zenimax basically didnt care about VR at all until one of their employees designed the software to bring it all together for a competitor that was willing to sink or swim on the idea.
 
bigdogchris said:
I played through RAGE again a few months ago. Even on a modern system with an NVMe SSD you still get popin when you turn around quickly. It doesn't really play better than it did back then.

However, I think the game is really fun and enjoy playing it.
Click to expand...
The issue with pop-in was meant to address underperforming hardware at the time by streaming in map content on the fly. It was an interesting solution to providing highly detailed worlds with non-repeating textures . So even on today's systems you're going to see pop-in, albeit just slightly faster pop-in based upon how the engine was designed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top