XBOX 360 has everything a PC has..Why cant you load windows onto it?

Headbust

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just popped into my head, it SEEMS to have everything a PC has, why wouldnt you be able to load windows onto it? If it could actually be done wouldnt a $400 xbox premium(retail of course) be the best computer on the market and the cheapest?

im sure theres an obvious answer, but i dont know it..

But im sure it can and most likley will be done this time around..:)
 

JethroXP

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A Mercedes Turbo Deisel seems to have everything that an standard unleaded burning car does, so why can you just put unleaded in it?
 

Dapperdan

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JethroXP said:
A Mercedes Turbo Deisel seems to have everything that an standard unleaded burning car does, so why can you just put unleaded in it?

a chimp has a 5% genetic deference then humans, so I guess that means with enough time, people could have human-monkey hybrid
 

deathBOB

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Headbust said:
just popped into my head, it SEEMS to have everything a PC has, why wouldnt you be able to load windows onto it? If it could actually be done wouldnt a $400 xbox premium(retail of course) be the best computer on the market and the cheapest?

im sure theres an obvious answer, but i dont know it..

But im sure it can and most likley will be done this time around..:)

Obvious answer: it uses a PowerPC based chip, not an x86.
 

bonkrowave

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Why would you want to put windows on it. I would think anything beyond a proof of concept would just lead to even more instability in the machine.
 

Tazman2

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deathBOB said:
Obvious answer: it uses a PowerPC based chip, not an x86 based chip and Microsoft likes to control you and what you do with their crap!.

FIXED! :D
 

Kahnvex

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Oranges have juice, and so do apples, so why can't I have applornge juice?

j/k

The true answer to that question is that MS has lockouts in place preventing the system from running unsigned code, thereby preventing you from getting a really awesome PC for a fraction of the damn price.

The other answer is that the 360 uses a highly proprietary multi core Power PC CPU setup with a highly customized ATI GPU that also acts as the northbridge system.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the drivers for talking to that probably aren't built into ol' WinXP.

Thats mostly the non-smart ass answer to your question.
 

Archaea

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give your question 1 months time...and there will be a linux OS that is bootable off a disc, or a mod chip you can buy that will turn the xbox360 into a workable PC...the fact that they gave us USB ports makes it that much more desirable....I pretty much guarentee it's only a matter of time, and SHORT time at that.
 

Sesheron

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they have already modded the hardware to allow linux....it was just really hard because their os is basically loaded straight to the processor as weird as that sounds, and there is a chip that continually checks the kernal on the processor, if it is changed the 360 won't work.....they had to get around it which is where the modding came in...other than that it was just your generic boot disc tweaked to work with the 360's hardware setup

my friend showed me the site...i just wish i remember where it was
 

nst6563

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taken from front page of http://www.xbox-scene.com/
Free60 Project Updates Overview and More ...
>> Here's an overview of some of the progress made by the Free60 Project over the last few days. For those who missed earlier news the project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux to the Xbox360.

* Some info about the stock HD: It's a Samsung or Seagate drive, it's not locked, a FATX partition exists on the drive, 360's serial number is required when formatting a HDD so possible encryption of serial # into HDD info, so far no reason to believe content on HD is encrypted. There's also a full pin-out of the SATA connector and some more info about the drive content. Check it out here.

* Boot initialization details of the PowerPC 64-bit 970FX CPU. This is not the Xbox360 CPU, but it's probably similar. There are also some technical details/guesses about the architecture of the 360 CPU, you can check it out here.

* The Xbox360 can read iPod and standard USB flashdrives using HFS+, FAT(32)(?) filesystem. More about USB here.

* Lot's of info about the chips used on the Wifi Adapter PCB is available here.

* The (US) Xbox 360 ships with kernel and dashboard 2.0.1888.0, upon the first live update the dashboard and kernel are updated to (D:2.0.2241.0 - K:2.0.2241.0) BK:2.0.1888.0. It's speculated that a backup of 2.0.1888.0 remains in the backup kernel storage. More here.

* Some info about UPnP (Universal Plug and Play): it runs on TCP port 1026 and seems to adhere to UPnP MediaRenderer Specifications. The 360 also uses UPnP to talk to Windows Media Connect and routers. Read more here.

* XEX File Format Speculation/Info: "XEX is the executable file format used by the Xbox 360 operating system. It seems to be a crypto and packing container for PPC PE executable files, comparable to UPX or TEEE Burneye. This would give more creedence to reports of .xex's being gigs large. Such speculation is also fueled by the presence of what appear to be clear text file and folder names. If games are Gigabyte sized .xex files then it's likely the 360 knows how to grab the section it needs into memory and decrypt/decompress on demand, instead of traditional all at once extraction. The executable code seems to be crypted, though, there exists some uncrypted XEX files in the wild.
A XEX file is composed of the following:
-A 32 bytes XEX Header
-Variable-length program/section headers
-Program/Section content "
More including info about Cryptography and Structure of the XEX File here and specifically about the Backwards Compatibility XEX update here.
Also more technical info about the XEX file format on this XBH thread. They found a SHA1 sums in default.xex (BC update file). More at source(xboxhacker.net)

More on http://www.free60.org/wiki/Documentation
Discuss this news item on our forums: forums.xbox-scene.com
(Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:31 EST) - (direct link to article)
website for the linux on 360 project: http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page
 

Prim3

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Becuase it isnt "the best computer on the market" Sorry, this thing has nothing on computers other then hype for gaming.

Also, the biggest reason. MICROSOFT DOESN'T WANT THEIR CONSOLES TO BE KNOWN AS A CHEAP COMPUTER. This is how they felt with the first and this one. This is why in this one. The os is basically built into the mobo by a chip on the board and not the harddrive. They also don't want the system to really be consider a cheap computer and this is why there is 0 mouse support and only text support for the system. Not to keep it an even playing field, becuase we all know and well, that every FPS player that wants to be hardcore would use it even if they had to pay 150 for an xbox branded combo to use it.
 

J-M-E

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Prim3 said:
Becuase it isnt "the best computer on the market" Sorry, this thing has nothing on computers other then hype for gaming.

Also, the biggest reason. MICROSOFT DOESN'T WANT THEIR CONSOLES TO BE KNOWN AS A CHEAP COMPUTER. This is how they felt with the first and this one. This is why in this one. The os is basically built into the mobo by a chip on the board and not the harddrive. They also don't want the system to really be consider a cheap computer and this is why there is 0 mouse support and only text support for the system. Not to keep it an even playing field, becuase we all know and well, that every FPS player that wants to be hardcore would use it even if they had to pay 150 for an xbox branded combo to use it.

QFT
 

noobman

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deathBOB said:
Obvious answer: it uses a PowerPC based chip, not an x86.
DeathBob beat me to it. The 3 core, dual threaded PowerPC processor is not supported by Windows. Don't forget, that the X360 uses an operating system derrived from Windows.

So Windows Xp won't work. Boo hoo. Why don't you try your hand with Mac OS X? :p lol
 

Stereophile

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Good point although isn't that where MS is taking things ?
One integrated be all end all entertainment/computing/information box ?
 

GFreeman9

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noobman said:
DeathBob beat me to it. The 3 core, dual threaded PowerPC processor is not supported by Windows. Don't forget, that the X360 uses an operating system derrived from Windows.

So Windows Xp won't work. Boo hoo. Why don't you try your hand with Mac OS X? :p lol
Why use Mac OSX when you can use Linux? :p
 

steviep

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nst6563 said:

Wow, Xbox-Scene is pretty smart and dumb for a site that's supposed to know a lot about this thing.
I don't even own one, and I know that the X360 has a FAT32 drive with a limit of 32gb, and not to mention that they couldn't be more wrong about the CPU.

It is NOT a standard PPC970FX. In fact, the closest to THAT chip would be the new Revolution CPU. The IBM PPE inside the X360 is extremely similar to the main CPU in the Cell processor (PS3), and it is an in-order chip with many stipped down or weak aspects, that couldn't run x86 (or regular out-of-order PPC) instructions very well without a complete recompile - which I'm sure not many programmers want to tackle. Though you could likely run PowerPC code for it, unoptimized code will run at roughly half the CPU's rated speed (around 1.6ghz) and wouldn't make a very good budget PC, even with the customized ATI GPU with different shader pipelines untypical of today's GPUs.
 

diehard

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steviep said:
Wow, Xbox-Scene is pretty smart and dumb for a site that's supposed to know a lot about this thing.
I don't even own one, and I know that the X360 has a FAT32 drive with a limit of 32gb, and not to mention that they couldn't be more wrong about the CPU.

It is NOT a standard PPC970FX. In fact, the closest to THAT chip would be the new Revolution CPU. The IBM PPE inside the X360 is extremely similar to the main CPU in the Cell processor (PS3), and it is an in-order chip with many stipped down or weak aspects, that couldn't run x86 (or regular out-of-order PPC) instructions very well without a complete recompile - which I'm sure not many programmers want to tackle. Though you could likely run PowerPC code for it, unoptimized code will run at roughly half the CPU's rated speed (around 1.6ghz) and wouldn't make a very good budget PC, even with the customized ATI GPU with different shader pipelines untypical of today's GPUs.
First of all, how do you know that is FAT32 and not "FATX", like the first xbox used?

About the CPU, maybe you didnt read where it said "This is not the Xbox360 CPU" regarding to the 970. Just because both the Cell and the 360's CPU are both in-order does not make them similar, and do we even know anything about the revolutions CPU? Id like a link.

Also, ill take a 3 core 1.6ghz effective PPC with a R400 for $400 anyday!
 

Moose777

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I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If you want a PC then buy a PC. Not a console running a Windows based OS.
 

NulloModo

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Eh, its just one of those things that is cool to do. This is a computer enthusiast site, lots of us like to play around with stuff and make things work in ways they aren't neccessarily supposed to.

If I could load up MacOS on a 360, you better bet I'm going to do it, if only to just play around with it like that for a few days and then revert it back to normal.
 

Erasmus354

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steviep said:
Wow, Xbox-Scene is pretty smart and dumb for a site that's supposed to know a lot about this thing.
I don't even own one, and I know that the X360 has a FAT32 drive with a limit of 32gb, and not to mention that they couldn't be more wrong about the CPU.

Rather than trying to sound all condescending maybe you could check your facts. Just because it is FAT32 doesn't mean you are limited to 32gb of storage. You just need to use a specialized program when partitioning the drive. Llama managed to mod a 60gb harddrive formatted with FAT32 into the 360 successfully.
 

steviep

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And only the first 30gb was addressable, from what I remember reading on that very same article or a similar "hack the X360" article. A modchip will fix that. It is FAT32, though. Read.

The Revolution CPU is most likely a derivative of the PPC970 for the following reasons:
1) IBM offered it to Apple (widely known) for their laptops, before the Intel switch
2) Nintendo claims that Revolution is fully backwards compatible with the Gamecube
3) The Gamecube uses a derivative of the Power3 core (G3)

IBM would not offer Apple a stripped down in-order core for use in any PC desktop environment, as it would be nearly useless. As I said, it would run unoptimized code at like half the rated speed. Also, if Nintendo chose the PPE core that is in use in the Cell/X360, it would have to use emulation to be backwards compatible with the Gamecube, as many of the instruction sets of the G3 aren't in that core - that simply isn't going to happen - they said "100% compatibilty".

ARSTechnica said:
IBM's trifecta
Before I get into Nintendo's general statements about the Revolution, it's worth spending a moment add some context by reviewing a few salient facts about the company behind the next-gen console's CPU.

The Revolution's PowerPC processor, codenamed "Broadway," is designed by IBM. One of the signal characteristics of IBM as a microprocessor design house is their modular approach to processor design, wherein major functional blocks of logic are reused across multiple processors spanning multiple market segments. IBM doesn't start processor designs completely from scratch anymore, because they don't need to. They repurpose technology that is already on hand by tailoring it to fit customers' needs.

Exhibit A of this trend is the PowerPC 970 that IBM produced for Apple. When IBM set out to build Apple's next-generation workstation processor, they took the POWER4's basic core architecture and tacked on an AltiVec unit, thereby turning a server-class multicore monster into a workstation-class media processor.

As for Exhibit B, that would be the basic PowerPC Processing Element (PPE) core design shared by Cell and Xenon. Not only did IBM reuse the same PPE design (with modifications) across two different console architectures, but that design itself has its roots in an earlier IBM research project that was intended to explore the effects of combining deep pipelines and high clockspeeds with static execution.

In conclusion, IBM currently has on hand two basic core designs that it could conceivably tweak for use in the Revolution: the 970/POWER4 design and the Cell/Xenon PPE design. Given IBM's track record, it's a near certainty that the Revolution is based on one of those two designs. The first question is, which one?
 

hity645

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Why not hook your pc up to a tv and save the $400 from buying what is pretty much a pc?
 

steviep

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Nope, it's an IBM core - stripped down PowerPC derivative...and the main core is pretty much the same thing as the 3 inside the X360. What makes it the "cell" is the 7 SPE's surrounding the 1 main core. These SPE's are pretty useless for most tasks, until they learn how to load some specific operations on them (perhaps AI or physics, but because neither the PPE or the SPE's are very good with branch prediction, it will be very very hard for the programmers). Let's just say the PS3 launch titles, especially from third parties, will probably suck until the game developers learn how to use these things. Much like the X360, most will probably only use the 1 main core, and look very similar to the X360 visually. The NVidia chip inside the PS3 has a very small advantage, though.
 

DukenukemX

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It's either Mac OSX or Linux that'll run on the 360. A modded 360 of course.

You'll be certain that linux will run on the 360. Mac OSX might be possible but that dpeends what instructions are missing that's needed to get the OS to boot.

Forget Windows. There isn't a Power PC WIndows OS.
 

NulloModo

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Ah, I had misread, apparently the Cell was co-developed by IBM, Sony, and Toshiba. Hmm, and interesting enough there are plans to use the Cell in graphics workstations and servers too... as well as in Toshiba televisions... how bizarre.
 

steviep

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NulloModo said:
Ah, I had misread, apparently the Cell was co-developed by IBM, Sony, and Toshiba. Hmm, and interesting enough there are plans to use the Cell in graphics workstations and servers too... as well as in Toshiba televisions... how bizarre.

Servers and workstations? Unlikely... read Anand's article about in-order vs out-of-order. The X360/PS3 have in-order cores, almost the same main PPE's, which are unsuitable for a lot of desktop-related tasks. Server usage? Well, not without a hell of a lot of programming and compiling work... It was co-developed, yes, but it's IBM's baby.
 

Kevlarman

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JethroXP said:
A Mercedes Turbo Deisel seems to have everything that an standard unleaded burning car does, so why can you just put unleaded in it?

Uh, because diesel engines don't have spark plugs? :D
 

Nasty_Savage

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The original dev kit for xbox was a Mac G5 running on a PowerPC kernel version of Windows 2000
 

diehard

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steviep said:
. The NVidia chip inside the PS3 has a very small advantage, though.
You could argue that the extra features of the xenon more than make up for its small disadvantage in fillrate.
 

diehard

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Nasty_Savage said:
The original dev kit for xbox was a Mac G5 running on a PowerPC kernel version of Windows 2000
Actually i think the first dev kit for the xbox was a dual core G5 running regular old OS X.
 

lopoetve

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hity645 said:
Why not hook your pc up to a tv and save the $400 from buying what is pretty much a pc?

Because most PC's (cough any cough) can't play Madden06 at 1080i like that. drool.
 
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steviep said:
Wow, Xbox-Scene is pretty smart and dumb for a site that's supposed to know a lot about this thing.
I don't even own one, and I know that the X360 has a FAT32 drive with a limit of 32gb, and not to mention that they couldn't be more wrong about the CPU.

It is NOT a standard PPC970FX. In fact, the closest to THAT chip would be the new Revolution CPU. The IBM PPE inside the X360 is extremely similar to the main CPU in the Cell processor (PS3), and it is an in-order chip with many stipped down or weak aspects, that couldn't run x86 (or regular out-of-order PPC) instructions very well without a complete recompile - which I'm sure not many programmers want to tackle. Though you could likely run PowerPC code for it, unoptimized code will run at roughly half the CPU's rated speed (around 1.6ghz) and wouldn't make a very good budget PC, even with the customized ATI GPU with different shader pipelines untypical of today's GPUs.
i LOOVE how the nintendo console doesnt have a stripped down cpu


i love you bias lil stevie, im almost certain revolutions cpu will be extremly similar to the 360s architecture wise
 
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