Windows 8: A Design Disaster

Zarathustra[H]

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I'm hoping they'll notice my support and get in touch with me so they can ship a free Microsoft branded mouse pad to me. I need a new one since my Babbage's mouse pad is starting to fall apart.

Get a ratpad :p

Last mousepad you'll ever buy (at least for 10 years or so)
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Zarathustra[H];1038854970 said:
Get a ratpad :p

Last mousepad you'll ever buy (at least for 10 years or so)

My original one from 2000 to 2001 some time (the one with the silver ratpadz.com logo) never wore out (well th eprinted logo wore off, but it wore off cleanly), but finally in 2011 it started warping to the point where it became an annoyance to use.

sizecomparsmall.jpg


Some people have had luck bending theirs back, I couldn't quite get it straight.

Either way, it's the best $20 I ever spent.

So I - of course - ordered another one :)
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Zarathustra[H];1038854981 said:
My original one from 2000 to 2001 some time (the one with the silver ratpadz.com logo) never wore out (well th eprinted logo wore off, but it wore off cleanly), but finally in 2011 it started warping to the point where it became an annoyance to use.

sizecomparsmall.jpg


Some people have had luck bending theirs back, I couldn't quite get it straight.

Either way, it's the best $20 I ever spent.

So I - of course - ordered another one :)

Doh, Image link messed up.

7409888102_484141b12d_o.jpg
 

Tudz

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then, once the user does actually get the search function working, he or she has to know the name or a partial name of the program to launch it. and that's not necessarily a given. the final problem is that apparently at least some applications don't show up in the search.

Yeah, that's one nice thing about the W7/Vista start menu, it presents what I've pinned, what I've used recently and a search bar for finding things, but in addition to that if I can't remember what I'm looking for (and yes it happens at times :p) I can always "seek and ye shall find" through the programs list. It's quite useful for programs which I don't use often and the launcher name isn't directly related to the program name, ANSYS for example, is called ANSYS, but has separate launchers for Workbench, Client ANSLIC utility, License Preferences, CAD configuration manager, etc, so typing "ANSYS" into the search bar won't come up with much and certainly won't come up with the specific launcher I might be looking to find. Occasionally you also get 2 different versions of the same program with the same launcher name... and while I COULD be tidy and rename the shortcuts for each version I'm lazy so just use the "all programs" link in the start menu to find the version I want.

Maybe W8 has some good and equally efficient alternatives to that, I've only played with it in a virtual box and haven't tried installing my full range of programs... but still I really liked the start menu on W7 and Vista and it was one of my favourite changes from XP and I still despise the whole concept of a start menu replacement that takes up the whole screen :p
 

XamediX

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I already pointed out two programs I'm having issue with: intel's ssd toolbox in legacy desktop and silverlight in metro. Try to run this http://simeonpilgrim.com/nikon-patch/Nikon-Patch.html and you should experience a glaring issue

I'd appreciate it if you tried both and left your impressions here
Ill try those. I hope the ssd toolbox doesnt murk up my install as I dont have an Intel SSD. But it is VM so if it messes up, wipe it and start again!

You guys keep calling it a "start menu" but the thing that win8 lacks is a centralized repository for installed applications.

the closest it has to that is in metro...with them splattered across the "desktop" in a twisted mess. that's the opposite of organization. And that's only if they are compatible and show up there, however. If they aren't then you need to go into the legacy desktop and launch them from there. Since there's no "start menu" as you put it, you have to figure out how to get the search to work. I've listed a few instances where it either doesn't work or is more difficult than it should be. that is, it slows down the user not because of lack of familiarity but because of its actual design.

then, once the user does actually get the search function working, he or she has to know the name or a partial name of the program to launch it. and that's not necessarily a given. the final problem is that apparently at least some applications don't show up in the search.

I will share some agreement in this particular statement. I know it may sound stupid but if they had section just like the android tablet's app drawers that will include any shortcuts to any programs installed. And have default icons for those legacy ones that never have any. So an easy fix would to include an app drawer that works with any program in metro or have a version of it that exists as part of the legacy desktop (app). I will check into more of these things when I get home as I am curious.

I also forgot that this is the infamous mope that defended the shit out of your stance on that Seattle/Apple macbook situation.. You are a level 7 internet debater. I am only a level 5. I shall gracefully bow out of any contrasting viewpoints that I have. Haha. :cool:
 

heatlesssun

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You guys keep calling it a "start menu" but the thing that win8 lacks is a centralized repository for installed applications.

There is an All Programs from the Start Screen, go to the app bar (top/bottom swipe on touch screen or right click with a mouse) and click All Programs. Metro doesn't support Silverlight so from Metro IE go to the app bar click the wrench and the select "view on desktop" to open the current page in IE desktop.

then, once the user does actually get the search function working, he or she has to know the name or a partial name of the program to launch it. and that's not necessarily a given. the final problem is that apparently at least some applications don't show up in the search.

If you'd state your problem with search, works perfectly for me and it's VERY fast.
 

heatlesssun

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Maybe W8 has some good and equally efficient alternatives to that, I've only played with it in a virtual box and haven't tried installing my full range of programs... but still I really liked the start menu on W7 and Vista and it was one of my favourite changes from XP and I still despise the whole concept of a start menu replacement that takes up the whole screen :p

All of this works in Windows 8 Metro search. The biggest difference is that you have to select the category or app to search with so it's not all one list but there's a lot more things that can be effectively searched.
 

Dekoth-E-

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I use Windows 8 extensively with only keyboards and mice and have talked a lot about Windows 8 on keyboard and mouse only hardware. I've also talked a lot about Windows 8 with touch hardware because touch is obviously the major point and when you use Windows 8 across form factors and input methods is make a lot more sense. I've said since I've been having these discussions that Windows 8 isn't about desktops and keyboards and mice OR tablets and touch but about desktops and keyboards and mice AND tablets and touch and the announcement of Surface tablets, the FIRST general purpose computers that Microsoft has made in its 37 year history couldn't illustrate the point better.

I have used it across multiple form factors..it makes sense with touch. It doesn't make a bit of sense without touch. Again, just because it works for 1 type of device doesn't make it work for another. Also to clarify once again, I am not talking about the technical plug it in, does it work. I talk about navigating through the operating system and executing commands and tasks. In this regard using a mouse and keyboard with Win 8 is an irritating experience.

I think I've said more than once that if the future of PCs lies in keyboards and mice the Windows 8 isn't the right thing for Microsoft to do. But I seriously don't think anyone believes that was much of a future left for desktops and mice and keyboards as consumer devices, at least not ones that general consumers had any passion for. This stuff isn't going away, indeed Windows 8 is counting on the desktop not going away.

I am pretty sure it is counting on desktops going away as it makes zero attempt at being a good experience on them. The only thing win 8 that was designed with desktops in mind other than it being built off win 7, is the Ribbon. To be entirely fair, I am surprised that didn't show up in vista/7 given how good a feature it is.

Well the Kingsley article was more than Windows 8 doesn't offer much to non-touch devices, it's that the UI is a disaster. That I simply disagree with because I use Windows 8 on non-touch devices all the time without issue . I'm not saying that others aren't and I'm not saying that Metro is perfect with keyboards and mice, I see issues particularly with Metro apps that have quirky keyboard and mouse behavior, but if Metro were that bad with keyboards and mice I should be having more trouble with it.

It is a design disaster, that is the point you don't get. Making the overall experience on a non touch device inferior in every aspect to the previous generation is a major design flaw. Again, I am not talking about technical does it function crap. There is a giant leap from plugging it in and it works to being a user friendly experience. If there were not, we would still be using Win 3.11.


True, but Windows 8 could be the greatest thing for desktops and keyboards and mice ever and most people still wouldn't upgrade for the most part.

It it were, people would upgrade in droves. I am extremely jaded when it comes to computers and even I am not that cynical. You will be hard pressed to find a win 7 hater for example. You might find some unwilling to upgrade too it for special circumstances and sure a handful of "get off my lawn" types but generally speaking.


Again I don't disagree. But then this hardly seems like a way to convince Microsoft that Metro is a bad idea.
This point had nothing to do with metro, just highlighting the nonsensical idea that the desktop market is going away anytime soon.


There's a number of caveats to this one. One being the emergence of people bringing their own devices to work. The truth is that a device like the Surface Pro can serve a lot of needs and work perfectly in the corporate world. But it be more mobile, and that has downsides to it but people seem to like mobile computers, even in the corporate world. As little as Windows 8 may bring to desktops and the Metro UI, bottom line is that's going to work with the overwhelming majority of Windows software, certainly better than an iOS or Android device.

Not really. Perhaps in small business type environments, but not in large business with actual IT. I have spent time as an It administrator and the last thing any IT admin wants is people bringing their own crap into the network. That violates so many fundamental security policies it isn't even funny. I thought you above all people should know this (you used to program right?). People bringing their own devices is a MAJOR not gonna happen in most environments. As far as tablets go, I can see them replacing *some* mobile users laptops but not all. Executives and general non power users, sure I can see that. Power users can't because a tablet just flat isn't powerful enough (This could change) and regular cubicle workers it will never happen. The rule is mobile technology tends to have legs. No company is ever going to mass deploy tablets.


Not really sure what the point is here. Few of even the not average home user would upgrade to Windows 8 no matter what.
I said segment, not average. Meaning enthusiasts like us, gamer's and other power users that are technically home users but not average users by any stretch. These groups tend to upgrade, not buy off the shelf. So yes, we would be upgrading the OS.


And ultimately this is mainly where the difference of opinion lies that I see between people who don't like Metro and myself. I think that this makes total sense and it is perfectly feasible and has advantages in that a single device isn't necessarily tied to any particular environment or input method.
That is great, and what we are saying is that for users like us the move doesn't make sense. Remember that whole conversation we have had about choice? A large chunk of us want a choice in the matter. We don't want a forced combining of environments. We view the touch market and the non touch market as completely different markets that have no bearing on one another. Attempting to make a non touch device look like a touch device is not something we want.


I know that you that I deflect the issue of Windows 8 on desktops by bringing up new hardware but with the announcement of Surface tablets, the first general purpose PCs that Microsoft has ever made, it's quite clear that hardware is at the very core of Windows 8 in Microsoft's mind anyway. If Microsoft cared about Windows 8 upgrades on existing hardware it's very unlikely that would be making their first PCs.

The surface tablets aren't general purpose PC's. There is a whole list of things a general purpose PC can do that they can't. Sorry but that statement is like calling a netbook a general purpose PC, it is rather laughable. Tablet hardware is the core of Win 8, not general hardware. There is a massive difference.

No, it's just that I got my first good job as a developer working a project that used Windows for Pen Computing about 20 years ago and I've just been a tablet fan since. I simply believe that a computer should be able to do anything, go with you anywhere. Something you can play games on, do math homework with a pen, do spreadsheets, read, watch a movie. Whatever one wishes to do. Hybrid tablet devices and Windows 8 can do it all. Some will say that that is a jack of all trades and a master of none, but Excel works just it always has on my Windows 8 devices as my Windows 7 devices. So does Angry Birds with touch and that's a desktop app. So does everything else. Yes the UI is different but there are no functional boundaries.

The way I see it is that if Windows 8 fails all were going to get are incremental iPad upgrades forever and a new Android version every week and no one will try to make powerful and flexible solutions anymore. And that will suck.

You should well know that the notion of a hand held device doing everything a full machine can do is an unrealistic belief and if you don't, well.... That is just never going to happen. Sorry, but Win 8 isn't going to change that simple fact that more powerful hardware will always be bigger. Ok well, perhaps not "never" as you can't say never when it comes to technology. With current technology and any technology projected for at least a few decades it isn't going to happen.

How do you know that no one will want the apps? I can see the app store as being a tremendous benefit to the non-[H] desktop users. If Microsoft throws Office and their other applications on there and allows full size third-party apps then it could effectively be a built-in alternative to Steam with the extra addition of non-game applications.

I love Metro on my Windows Phone though I'm not fond of it on the desktop at this point.

You are confusing "app" with App Store.

1) I don't need a complete UI change to go download programs. I can do that through a web browser just fine. I can also do it through programs like Steam if I so choose.

2) Just because a program is in an app store, doesn't make it an app in the sense that we are discussing. Office for example doesn't change what it is just because you downloaded it vs bought the DVD. Again, I don't mind if microsoft offers digital distribution (they already do), but i don't need my entire OS ui changed for that purpose.

3) Name me a single app in the app stores of Amazon, Apple, Microsoft or Android that does something that can't be done on a PC better. I will save you the trouble, there isn't one. Every single productivity App for mobile devices is designed to try and emulate something a PC does to make that device more useful. As such the "app store" is a complete waste on a PC and having it integrated into the UI is about the most retarded idea imaginable.
 

SkribbelKat

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Zarathustra[H];1038854970 said:
Get a ratpad :p

Last mousepad you'll ever buy (at least for 10 years or so)

I can't buy a mousepad! That'd be so weird after getting freebies from companies.
 

heatlesssun

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That is great, and what we are saying is that for users like us the move doesn't make sense. Remember that whole conversation we have had about choice? A large chunk of us want a choice in the matter. We don't want a forced combining of environments. We view the touch market and the non touch market as completely different markets that have no bearing on one another. Attempting to make a non touch device look like a touch device is not something we want.

Again, this is the big philosophical disagreement I have with Metro opponents. Maybe Windows 8 isn't the answer to hybrid computing but I feel very strongly that it can work. And yes I know this isn't Microsoft's first attempt at Tablet PCs. Indeed Windows 8 is probably going to launch close the 10th anniversary of the Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, kind of ironic and perhaps even bad omen as we know those devices were generally failures. That said, Tablet PC had far more critical issues than how many clicks it took to shutdown a machine. Battery life has been so poor on these devices historically that tended to shut themselves down in zero clicks.

But the hardware and software are MUCH better today and I applaud Microsoft for going at it again. Windows 8 may fail but for me it's the way I want to use a computer, a single OS across input devices and form factors and do it with one device.

The surface tablets aren't general purpose PC's. There is a whole list of things a general purpose PC can do that they can't. Sorry but that statement is like calling a netbook a general purpose PC, it is rather laughable. Tablet hardware is the core of Win 8, not general hardware. There is a massive difference.

The Surface Pro is absolutely a general purpose PC, more general purpose than all current PCs in that it can be used virtually everyway that PCs are used to do. Connect it to an external monitor and keyboard you have a desktop. While not quite a laptop with the type cover and kickstand, it's pretty close and it looks like it could support a folding keyboard dock and come an ultrabook. And last but not least, pen and touch capable tablet. The Surface Pro is about as general purpose as it gets.

You should well know that the notion of a hand held device doing everything a full machine can do is an unrealistic belief and if you don't, well.... That is just never going to happen. Sorry, but Win 8 isn't going to change that simple fact that more powerful hardware will always be bigger. Ok well, perhaps not "never" as you can't say never when it comes to technology. With current technology and any technology projected for at least a few decades it isn't going to happen.

I think I understand power PCs as well as anyone around here. And most people simply do not want or need them. The average PC user would probably get a lot more utility out of a Surface Pro than something like my sig rig, and save themselves a few grand in the process. If the iPad has taught us anything I think it has taught us that average computers users don't want or need powerful PCs, at least not all of the time. A

3) Name me a single app in the app stores of Amazon, Apple, Microsoft or Android that does something that can't be done on a PC better. I will save you the trouble, there isn't one. Every single productivity App for mobile devices is designed to try and emulate something a PC does to make that device more useful. As such the "app store" is a complete waste on a PC and having it integrated into the UI is about the most retarded idea imaginable.

Is the Windows desktop a more powerful platform than phones and tablets? Of course. But powerful isn't necessarily better always in the eyes of the beholder. If computing was all about power then Apple wouldn't be the most valuable company on the planet right now. Sure they have some great stuff, but they really aren't about creating stuff with tons of customizability and functionality. I think for now average people like a mix of both, but would rather have a solid and pleasant experience rather than one with lots of features and functions they don't even really understand.

This might be is the fundamental challenge of Windows 8. It is trying to mix complexity and simplicity in one OS. It's not an easy thing to do but not impossible either I believe.
 

Dekoth-E-

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Again, this is the big philosophical disagreement I have with Metro opponents. Maybe Windows 8 isn't the answer to hybrid computing but I feel very strongly that it can work. And yes I know this isn't Microsoft's first attempt at Tablet PCs. Indeed Windows 8 is probably going to launch close the 10th anniversary of the Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, kind of ironic and perhaps even bad omen as we know those devices were generally failures. That said, Tablet PC had far more critical issues than how many clicks it took to shutdown a machine. Battery life has been so poor on these devices historically that tended to shut themselves down in zero clicks.

But the hardware and software are MUCH better today and I applaud Microsoft for going at it again. Windows 8 may fail but for me it's the way I want to use a computer, a single OS across input devices and form factors and do it with one device.

That is great for you, but it still doesn't justify giving users no choice in the way it works. If you wanted everything to look like your tablet, that is fine. There is however no reasonable argument as to why my desktop which doesn't work like a tablet should be forced to look like one.


The Surface Pro is absolutely a general purpose PC, more general purpose than all current PCs in that it can be used virtually everyway that PCs are used to do. Connect it to an external monitor and keyboard you have a desktop. While not quite a laptop with the type cover and kickstand, it's pretty close and it looks like it could support a folding keyboard dock and come an ultrabook. And last but not least, pen and touch capable tablet. The Surface Pro is about as general purpose as it gets.

Uh, no not even close. Just because you can hook up a keyboard and mouse doesn't make it a general purpose PC. There is a slew of things you aren't going to be doing on it; encoding video, playing games (mobile games don't count, you know what I refer too), and intensive programs like Photoshop aren't going to be run on a low power device. This just isn't even a point to debate. So while it pretends to be a general purpose PC, the fact is it is a Specialty device.


I think I understand power PCs as well as anyone around here. And most people simply do not want or need them. The average PC user would probably get a lot more utility out of a Surface Pro than something like my sig rig, and save themselves a few grand in the process. If the iPad has taught us anything I think it has taught us that average computers users don't want or need powerful PCs, at least not all of the time.

I have never disputed this. I have said multiple times that I see the power PC disappearing out of "joe averages" house. Mom and pop don't need one, they just do email and facebook. This is why iPads and such are selling so fast. However the part you quoted was me talking about those who "DO" require a real desktop. I easily acknowledge that the desktop/laptop market for the average user is very likely going to disappear. I also have zero problem with it. Mostly because after years of being free IT, I bought them all iPads and told them to leave me alone. :D


Is the Windows desktop a more powerful platform than phones and tablets? Of course. But powerful isn't necessarily better always in the eyes of the beholder. If computing was all about power then Apple wouldn't be the most valuable company on the planet right now. Sure they have some great stuff, but they really aren't about creating stuff with tons of customizability and functionality. I think for now average people like a mix of both, but would rather have a solid and pleasant experience rather than one with lots of features and functions they don't even really understand.

This might be is the fundamental challenge of Windows 8. It is trying to mix complexity and simplicity in one OS. It's not an easy thing to do but not impossible either I believe.

I probably encompassed most of this in the previous quote. However you are being a little idealistic here, that or you have not actually worked with "Average" users in quite a long time. You grossly overestimate the intelligence and patience of the average user when it comes to new things. People are reactionary and the reactions to even Vista and Win 7 frustrated average XP users because things moved and things largely looked the same. Do you honestly think that group (who by the way are the overwhelming majority) is going to just pick up win 8 and be like "Ohhh this is so easy!" Not a snowballs chance in hell is that going to happen. They are going to take one look at it and turn right around and walk away. I would bet good money that Apple is already preparing marketing like they had during vista to exploit that and we both know just how effective that little campaign was. Hell there are people on this very forum still spouting outright BS about vista that was perpetuated in those commercials.

I won't repeat myself, but I already addressed the major things that must happen for this to succeed. Microsoft must compete head to head with the iPad in price, performance AND available apps in the mobile space if win 8 is to succeed. Because it certainly is not going too in the non touch market. Right now frankly things are looking bad. If you look past the shiny parts of the Surface tablet, it is just flat out priced out of the market.
 

heatlesssun

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That is great for you, but it still doesn't justify giving users no choice in the way it works. If you wanted everything to look like your tablet, that is fine. There is however no reasonable argument as to why my desktop which doesn't work like a tablet should be forced to look like one.

I don't understand why you think that your view of it is some sort of universal truth. This will all be decided in the market place. If you're right, then Windows will crash and burn and Microsoft will be a lot of trouble. If I'm right then people will adapt with keyboards and mice and they'll like the benefits of a new generation of Tablet PCs.

Windows isn't a democracy but everyone will have an opportunity to vote, or not, with their money.

Uh, no not even close. Just because you can hook up a keyboard and mouse doesn't make it a general purpose PC. There is a slew of things you aren't going to be doing on it; encoding video, playing games (mobile games don't count, you know what I refer too), and intensive programs like Photoshop aren't going to be run on a low power device. This just isn't even a point to debate. So while it pretends to be a general purpose PC, the fact is it is a Specialty device.

The ironic thing about this is that the Surface Pro with it's Ivy Bridge will beat a LOT of the keyboard and mouse only devices that you say people would come in droves to by Windows 8 if it were better than keyboards and mice. And Photoshop users have historically been loyal Tablet PC users. Half the people that will buy the Surface Pro, the first thing they're going to load on it is Photoshop.

I have never disputed this. I have said multiple times that I see the power PC disappearing out of "joe averages" house. Mom and pop don't need one, they just do email and facebook. This is why iPads and such are selling so fast. However the part you quoted was me talking about those who "DO" require a real desktop. I easily acknowledge that the desktop/laptop market for the average user is very likely going to disappear. I also have zero problem with it. Mostly because after years of being free IT, I bought them all iPads and told them to leave me alone. :D

It seems like you just made as strong of a case for Windows 8 as anyone I've seen. And that's kind of inconsistent with the droves of people that would by Windows 8 upgrades if it were a big improvement on the desktop.

I probably encompassed most of this in the previous quote. However you are being a little idealistic here, that or you have not actually worked with "Average" users in quite a long time. You grossly overestimate the intelligence and patience of the average user when it comes to new things.

I'm just not arrogant. If I can figure something out, at lot of other people can too. I'm not that special.

People are reactionary and the reactions to even Vista and Win 7 frustrated average XP users because things moved and things largely looked the same. Do you honestly think that group (who by the way are the overwhelming majority) is going to just pick up win 8 and be like "Ohhh this is so easy!" Not a snowballs chance in hell is that going to happen.

Microsoft has talked quite a lot about usability. They are very well aware of this complaint. Somehow, someway, either they're lying and betting the company on a product that most people won't be able to use or maybe they've actually studied it and figured that it's going to work for most people, with maybe some guidance or tutorial or something.

Microsoft has made plenty of mistakes but Windows has never really been considered simple to use and doesn't when UI awards and when versions of Windows haven't been well received like Vista it's never been because people couldn't figure out how to use it.

They are going to take one look at it and turn right around and walk away. I would bet good money that Apple is already preparing marketing like they had during vista to exploit that and we both know just how effective that little campaign was. Hell there are people on this very forum still spouting outright BS about vista that was perpetuated in those commercials.

And in reality that marketing while funny never proved to be all that effective. But maybe you're right.

I won't repeat myself, but I already addressed the major things that must happen for this to succeed. Microsoft must compete head to head with the iPad in price, performance AND available apps in the mobile space if win 8 is to succeed. Because it certainly is not going too in the non touch market. Right now frankly things are looking bad. If you look past the shiny parts of the Surface tablet, it is just flat out priced out of the market.

Well if it boosts faster and has better battery life than Windows 7 and is 100% backwards compatible, it might just do fine there.
 

SkribbelKat

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Zarathustra[H];1038858579 said:
But the proceeds go to the [H] (or at least to Kyle, not sure how that is all set up business wise) :p

I guess padding Kyle's bank account is a worthy cause. *pouts* I still want a Microsoft mousey pad for free though. Maybe I can stack them on top of one another to make a MicroRat or something.
 

Bankie

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1) I don't need a complete UI change to go download programs. I can do that through a web browser just fine. I can also do it through programs like Steam if I so choose.

No one mentioned a UI change for the app store; not even you in the post I quoted. You simply said that nobody would use it so I'm not sure why you're trying to make that argument.

2) Just because a program is in an app store, doesn't make it an app in the sense that we are discussing. Office for example doesn't change what it is just because you downloaded it vs bought the DVD. Again, I don't mind if microsoft offers digital distribution (they already do), but i don't need my entire OS ui changed for that purpose.

To say that fully functional applications won't be on the app store is shortsighted. I see this as a move towards a combined "app store" and a standard "digital distribution" store. If you look at it from your average user's perspective it will be a big deal. Normal users will now easily be able to find and get whatever app/program they want without going to Newegg, Bestbuy, etc. Again no one mentioned the UI change for the app store.

3) Name me a single app in the app stores of Amazon, Apple, Microsoft or Android that does something that can't be done on a PC better. I will save you the trouble, there isn't one. Every single productivity App for mobile devices is designed to try and emulate something a PC does to make that device more useful. As such the "app store" is a complete waste on a PC and having it integrated into the UI is about the most retarded idea imaginable.

You should consider that most users want portability or ease of use in their apps more than power. As such "better" will be determined on a case-by-case basis. I'd rather have GPS on a small handheld device than a laptop for instance. I find calendars to be more useful on the same devices. Surface will have models with Ivy Bridge so it will likely be more powerful than many user's PCs and running Win8 so it will have the ability to run anything you want just as well.

You seem to base your dislikes on the assumption that the "app store" will just have half-assed shareware programs when it will likely have everything from widgets to fully functional PC applications.
 

Tudz

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You should consider that most users want portability or ease of use in their apps more than power. As such "better" will be determined on a case-by-case basis. I'd rather have GPS on a small handheld device than a laptop for instance. I find calendars to be more useful on the same devices. Surface will have models with Ivy Bridge so it will likely be more powerful than many user's PCs and running Win8 so it will have the ability to run anything you want just as well.

You seem to base your dislikes on the assumption that the "app store" will just have half-assed shareware programs when it will likely have everything from widgets to fully functional PC applications.

This goes back to the whole thing why do we have Metro on desktop and why is it being forced on us?

I look at all the apps on my phone, and I can't think of a single one I would want on my desktop. Why? Because my friggin desktop already does all those things either through an internet browser or through purpose built desktop applications that are more functional than the portable versions anyway!

The fact is I don't WANT the same apps on my desktop as my phone, I don't WANT the same functionality on my desktop as my phone, why would I want the same OS and associated UI?

That's my thought at least. I know people like heatlesssun will come along and extol the virtues of having a single UI across different devices and that's great that's what he wants and that's what he's getting, personally I couldn't give a flying fuck since the devices are different enough in function that I don't want nor need the same UI.

We'll see in the coming years how W8 does, but personally I'm not jumping up and down over having "Windows touch edition" on my desktop when I have no desire or need to a touch device beyond my phone.
 

mope54

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 2, 2004
Messages
7,452
Android's Play store doesn't have full applications yet but that will presumably change when Chrome OS has a larger footprint and android tablets become more capable.

Apple's App Store already has become a full digital distribution center. In answer to Dekoth-E's query about naming a fully capable application in the app store, there are many--including but not limited to OSX, Final Cut Pro, the entire iLife suite (iMovie, iPhoto, etc.).
 

SkribbelKat

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
5,330
Android's Play store doesn't have full applications yet

Do you mean stuff that's identical to retail software packages or just fully functional software? When I was last using an Android device, I could find most of what I felt I needed from a functionality perspective. (Office suite, stupid games, ebook readers, etc.)
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
44,154
That's my thought at least. I know people like heatlesssun will come along and extol the virtues of having a single UI across different devices and that's great that's what he wants and that's what he's getting, personally I couldn't give a flying fuck since the devices are different enough in function that I don't want nor need the same UI.

Then why is it you see more and more people saying that can replace PCs with tablets? Why is it that almost every industry analysts sees tablets replacing PCs and laptops at an ever growing rate?

I web browse on my desktops and tablets, and everyone with desktops and tablets use them for web browsing. I read documents, play video and music and game (though different kinds of games between devices) on my desktops and tablets and everyone else with desktops and tablets pretty much do these same activities on each device. I even run Microsoft Office on both my desktops and tablets, and many do use Office on their desktop and some type of office automation software on their tablets.

Yes there's obviously things that require lots of performance that people don't do on tablets but a great number of common tasks, the functions of desktops and tablets are identical. The only real difference is the user interface..
 

Tudz

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Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
7,434
Then why is it you see more and more people saying that can replace PCs with tablets? Why is it that almost every industry analysts sees tablets replacing PCs and laptops at an ever growing rate?

I web browse on my desktops and tablets, and everyone with desktops and tablets use them for web browsing. I read documents, play video and music and game (though different kinds of games between devices) on my desktops and tablets and everyone else with desktops and tablets pretty much do these same activities on each device. I even run Microsoft Office on both my desktops and tablets, and many do use Office on their desktop and some type of office automation software on their tablets.

Yes there's obviously things that require lots of performance that people don't do on tablets but a great number of common tasks, the functions of desktops and tablets are identical. The only real difference is the user interface..
I don't see how that's relevant to what you quoted or the gist of what I was talking about. You just went around my actual comments to bring up the same tired arguments again, but sense you did...

That's fine for YOU and for TABLETS. Personally I don't see the point in owning a tablet when I have a nice big 24" screen that I use for basically everything and have absolutely no need for a tablet. Portability is great and all but there's very few places I actually want to use a computer beyond my desk. That's not to say I wouldn't take a tablet if someone gave me one, but it's not something I see the point in wasting money on when I have a desktop for "computing" and a smartphone for "portable". For me, and obviously I'm not everyone else, tablets sit in this limbo of being less portable than a smartphone but less useful than a desktop.

Desktops aren't going anywhere soon because when you actually want to do some "computing" the most efficient way of doing it is with a big arse screen, a full sized keyboard and a mouse.

That's not to say tablets don't have a place, they do, but I think that place is highly over rated and the desktop isn't going anywhere soon. Also, as has been said a million fucking times across a million fucking threads, all the "analysts" estimates you talk about tablets replacing desktops and laptops are based on projected growth matching current growth WHICH NO ONE KNOWS whether or not is actually sustainable. We don't know how close the market is to saturation or how many of the current sales are based on school girls following the latest fad which will evaporate as soon as Apple decides to shift it's marketing focus.

Which brings us full circle. Desktops aren't going anywhere. Desktop applications should benefit from increased functionality compared to their small limited capability touch screen nephews. If the applications should be different, then why are we being forced to use the same damned UI and OS.

Even when you talk about doing the same thing on either device, web browsing, document reading, play videos, etc... those aren't tasks that require the same damned application. Both my phone and my desktop have a web browser, I use both my phone and my desktop for web browsing, however I don't want the same fucking limitations that my phone browser or a tablet browser has when using my desktop browser. Or playing videos, yes, both devices play videos, but on my desktop I have VLC which as soon as you open it has about 50 different options for playing and tweaking and adjusting things which I don't need on a tablet nor would it be practical due to the limited screen space and precision of a touch interface.

Hence, DIFFERENT FUNCTIONALITY. Just because you do some of the same tasks on your tablet as your desktop doesn't mean you have OR WANT the same functionality between them.

Different functionality, different capability, different programs, different UI/OS.
 

heatlesssun

Extremely [H]
Joined
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Messages
44,154
Even when you talk about doing the same thing on either device, web browsing, document reading, play videos, etc... those aren't tasks that require the same damned application. Both my phone and my desktop have a web browser, I use both my phone and my desktop for web browsing, however I don't want the same fucking limitations that my phone browser or a tablet browser has when using my desktop browser. Or playing videos, yes, both devices play videos, but on my desktop I have VLC which as soon as you open it has about 50 different options for playing and tweaking and adjusting things which I don't need on a tablet nor would it be practical due to the limited screen space and precision of a touch interface.

Hence, DIFFERENT FUNCTIONALITY. Just because you do some of the same tasks on your tablet as your desktop doesn't mean you have OR WANT the same functionality between them.

Fair enough but be it a desktop, laptop, tablet or phone, most people just want to click a button and watch a video without 50 options. It's great to have them if needed, but most people no matter the platform don't want to have to deal with that sort of thing most of the time.

Different functionality, different capability, different programs, different UI/OS.

And this is what I appreciate about Windows 8 (x86 not ARM, not at this point). One device with one OS can do all of this. Putting the Metro UI aside, I can use VLC in Windows 8, when I want, I can even use it with touch on the desktop. But normally I just you the Metro video player, and that works fine with keyboards and mice even though it's touch optimized.
 

PhartStorm

n00b
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
1
Been working in and around the computing business for a long time (I learned on punched cards) and thought I would add my thoughts/comments to those expressed on this thread.

First off - Yes, I realize that I am not the target demographic for all this "innovation". That said, I believe my experiences over the years will provide a flavor to my opinions that some may find interesting.

I have used various flavors of Windows on PDAs and phones over the years that simply tried to replicate the look and feel of the desktop version. Now MS seems to be doing the opposite. They were barely successful the first time (until IOS took over the market) and I don't think they will be successful now. Why? For the same reasons they failed the first time.
  • The platforms do not share the same capabilities - Windows had to be "dumbed down" to work on PDAs and smartphones because they did not have processing power, storage and graphics display required to run the desktop/laptop version of Windows. In Windows 8, they are "dumbing down" the primary UI to match the inferior capabilities of smartphones and tablets. Once heralded as showcasing the superior capabilities of desktops and laptops, MS now calls the Aero interface, 3d effects and transparencies as "cheesy and outdated". In a word - bunk.
  • Touch vs. Mouse and Keyboard - It was uncomfortable navigating on the old Windows PDAs and smartphones using touch. The vast majority of desktops and laptops still use a mouse and keyboard interface. Metro feels totally out of place on these devices. I like Metro for smartphones and tablets - but my desktop is not a tablet and my laptop is not a smartphone.
  • Screen Size - Until tablets can generate large interactive, 3d holographic displays, they will not supplant desktops and laptops (to a lesser extent) for productivity applications. There is no question that tablets are taking away from PC sales for casual users (surfing, email, ebooks, etc.), but declaring it a "post-pc" world is bit premature.
  • The Start Menu - the Start menu has been around since Windows 95. It has become a signature feature of Windows - anyone who has spent more than a minute using a Windows OS instinctively looks for the Start Menu to find their applications. Removing it from Windows 8 was just plain stupid - I realize that they want to force their customers into Metro, but I believe this will annoy at best and alienate at worst the bulk of the Windows user community.
  • The real reason for the Metro UI in Windows 8 - the App Store. Now that Gadgets have, for the most part, been removed from Windows Vista and 7, we get them back in Windows 8 as "apps" with the key difference that we now have to pay for them.

Because of my experiences, I realize that I can be a little jaded and perhaps set in my ways when evaluating new software. As such, I like to put myself in the position of a brand new computer user with no history with MS and ask myself "How do I like the experience of using this new OS?"

In the case of Windows 8, it feels cumbersome, disjointed and not very intuitive. MS needs to make Metro optional and bring back the Start Menu if they expect this dog to hunt. Unless this happens now, I for one will be awaiting these corrections in Windows 9.
 
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