Windows 8: A Design Disaster

[nOrVow]

lol, No one is going to use a GUI for any serious administration

GUI?

what's that?

 

[Red Falcon]

GUI?

what's that?

Don't even try to explain it to anyone else in this thread.
Hipster admins exclusively use a gui and special 'apps' which are neither proven, nor secure... but damn are they bubbly and colorful.

They also exclusively save everything to the 'cloud', it's what the posers *cough* I mean pros do.

 

[heatlesssun]

I never said that, however you have deflected every single argument against win 8 on a desktop/laptop by throwing the next gen hardware argument out. You aren't the only one though.

I use Windows 8 extensively with only keyboards and mice and have talked a lot about Windows 8 on keyboard and mouse only hardware. I've also talked a lot about Windows 8 with touch hardware because touch is obviously the major point and when you use Windows 8 across form factors and input methods is make a lot more sense. I've said since I've been having these discussions that Windows 8 isn't about desktops and keyboards and mice OR tablets and touch but about desktops and keyboards and mice AND tablets and touch and the announcement of Surface tablets, the FIRST general purpose computers that Microsoft has made in its 37 year history couldn't illustrate the point better.

I think I've said more than once that if the future of PCs lies in keyboards and mice the Windows 8 isn't the right thing for Microsoft to do. But I seriously don't think anyone believes that was much of a future left for desktops and mice and keyboards as consumer devices, at least not ones that general consumers had any passion for. This stuff isn't going away, indeed Windows 8 is counting on the desktop not going away.

Again, the debate isn't is Win 8 a good tablet OS. We all generally acknowledge that it is and given the right circumstances may compete against apple and android. That is yet to be seen though.

I agree.

This article is all about what Win 8 offers to the non touch device, and the fact is even by your own admission, not much.

Well the Kingsley article was more than Windows 8 doesn't offer much to non-touch devices, it's that the UI is a disaster. That I simply disagree with because I use Windows 8 on non-touch devices all the time without issue . I'm not saying that others aren't and I'm not saying that Metro is perfect with keyboards and mice, I see issues particularly with Metro apps that have quirky keyboard and mouse behavior, but if Metro were that bad with keyboards and mice I should be having more trouble with it.

Facts that cannot be forgotten;

[*]Desktops Still outnumber Tablets. While tablets may be outselling desktops, they still have a Long way to go before they will outnumber desktops. Laptops outsold desktops for a long time and never outnumbered them.

True, but Windows 8 could be the greatest thing for desktops and keyboards and mice ever and most people still wouldn't upgrade for the most part.

[*]The next major consideration is that the life cycle on a desktop is typically longer than a mobile device. As such there isn't a need to replace them as often, resulting in seemingly lower sales. Laptops and tablets are going to be replaced far more often due to lack of upgrade options and the simple fact that mobile devices get broken more.

Again I don't disagree. But then this hardly seems like a way to convince Microsoft that Metro is a bad idea.

[*]Tablets and touch devices aren't going to replace the traditional desktop productivity machine in a corporate environment, or at least not in the foreseeable future. I seriously doubt this will ever happen and there aren't too many arguments grounded in business reality that would deny that. Corporate clients make up a huge percentage of the market and are more than big enough to keep the desktop as a primary device for years to come.

There's a number of caveats to this one. One being the emergence of people bringing their own devices to work. The truth is that a device like the Surface Pro can serve a lot of needs and work perfectly in the corporate world. But it be more mobile, and that has downsides to it but people seem to like mobile computers, even in the corporate world. As little as Windows 8 may bring to desktops and the Metro UI, bottom line is that's going to work with the overwhelming majority of Windows software, certainly better than an iOS or Android device.

However for the segment of "home users" who aren't in the average user category, there is no sense alienating them.

Not really sure what the point is here. Few of even the not average home user would upgrade to Windows 8 no matter what.

Even if they do replace a traditional laptop and desktop for the average user, merging the tablet experience with the desktop experience is a retarded idea.

And ultimately this is mainly where the difference of opinion lies that I see between people who don't like Metro and myself. I think that this makes total sense and it is perfectly feasible and has advantages in that a single device isn't necessarily tied to any particular environment or input method.

All it accomplishes is alienating the two very large remaining groups who aren't going away and discourages them from upgrading their OS. It essentially forces another Win XP situation which MS has claimed they want to avoid.
[/LIST]

Upgrade sales of Windows don't drive the Windows business. And the situation around XP that Microsoft wanted to avoid was the 5 years between XP and Vista.

I know that you that I deflect the issue of Windows 8 on desktops by bringing up new hardware but with the announcement of Surface tablets, the first general purpose PCs that Microsoft has ever made, it's quite clear that hardware is at the very core of Windows 8 in Microsoft's mind anyway. If Microsoft cared about Windows 8 upgrades on existing hardware it's very unlikely that would be making their first PCs.

 

[SkribbelKat]

snip

You know you're my hero for being at this Win8 debate thing for so long don't you? Are you working at Redmond, Washington perchance?

 

[heatlesssun]

You know you're my hero for being at this Win8 debate thing for so long don't you? Are you working at Redmond, Washington perchance?

No, it's just that I got my first good job as a developer working a project that used Windows for Pen Computing about 20 years ago and I've just been a tablet fan since. I simply believe that a computer should be able to do anything, go with you anywhere. Something you can play games on, do math homework with a pen, do spreadsheets, read, watch a movie. Whatever one wishes to do. Hybrid tablet devices and Windows 8 can do it all. Some will say that that is a jack of all trades and a master of none, but Excel works just it always has on my Windows 8 devices as my Windows 7 devices. So does Angry Birds with touch and that's a desktop app. So does everything else. Yes the UI is different but there are no functional boundaries.

The way I see it is that if Windows 8 fails all were going to get are incremental iPad upgrades forever and a new Android version every week and no one will try to make powerful and flexible solutions anymore. And that will suck.

 

[Red Falcon]

I simply believe that a computer should be able to do anything, go with you anywhere.

And yet you despise Linux and use Windows, because that makes sense.

 

[heatlesssun]

And yet you despise Linux and use Windows, because that makes sense.

I don't despise Linux but it can't power my devices for my uses.

 

[daglesj]

I just wish I was one of the 12 people this OS was specially designed for. I'd feel so special I guess I'd be deluded too.

 

[Monkey God]

Don't even try to explain it to anyone else in this thread.
Hipster admins exclusively use a gui and special 'apps' which are neither proven, nor secure... but damn are they bubbly and colorful.

They also exclusively save everything to the 'cloud', it's what the posers *cough* I mean pros do.

You guys done self-fellating each other? If you think the only 'real" admin is done via command line only then you are either:
a) remarkably closed minded
b) don't have any actual experience administrating networks/servers/applications/etc. (and no, running a handful of test machines at home doesn't count, rockstar)

Actual professionals use whatever tools are available, that are secure, functional, and allow them to get the job done correctly as efficiently as possible. Whether its command line, GUI, or done via an iPad over RDP/VPN, whatever gets the job fucking *done*. All or nothing viewpoints have no place in the work environment. Try politics or Mac vs Windows vs *Nix wank fests?

 

[Bankie]

You seem so convinced that Devs are going to flock to Win 8 apps and that people are going to snap them up. Sure developers might initially go there, but if no one wants the apps well you see how long developers stuck with Google plus.

The problem with the assumption that metro apps are going to succeed on a regular desktop/laptop is that unlike mobile devices there is little need. If I want productivity software, I have tons of choices, If I want games I have tons of choices, if I want different browsers I have tons of choices. What exactly does the App market offer to a non touch device other than a headache for developers? Angry birds is about all I can come up with..Yea, real compelling.

How do you know that no one will want the apps? I can see the app store as being a tremendous benefit to the non-[H] desktop users. If Microsoft throws Office and their other applications on there and allows full size third-party apps then it could effectively be a built-in alternative to Steam with the extra addition of non-game applications.

I love Metro on my Windows Phone though I'm not fond of it on the desktop at this point.

 

[rkatapt]

All I know is ever since I installed Windows 8 on the first preview a few months ago Battlefield 3 quit crashing to desktop. So I'm kind of keen to it...

 

[wonderfield]

Whether its command line, GUI, or done via an iPad over RDP/VPN, whatever gets the job fucking *done*. All or nothing viewpoints have no place in the work environment.

Exactly. I'll happily use command line tools when those tools are well-suited to that modality, but more often than not, in my experience, using a CLI tool makes absolutely no sense when there are GUI tools that are faster and easier to work with. I genuinely believe that command line aficionados simply enjoy the 'hacker' feeling of that type of interface — the feeling that their workflow is superior because it's overly-complicated and difficult for news users to grapple with.

 

[SkribbelKat]

You guys done self-fellating each other? If you think the only 'real" admin is done via command line only then you are either:
a) remarkably closed minded
b) don't have any actual experience administrating networks/servers/applications/etc. (and no, running a handful of test machines at home doesn't count, rockstar)

Actual professionals use whatever tools are available, that are secure, functional, and allow them to get the job done correctly as efficiently as possible. Whether its command line, GUI, or done via an iPad over RDP/VPN, whatever gets the job fucking *done*. All or nothing viewpoints have no place in the work environment. Try politics or Mac vs Windows vs *Nix wank fests?

I wouldn't have quite said it that way, but this is very true. Systems administration requires a multitude of different tools, some of which reside in a GUI, to perform efficiently. Ultimately, we're trying to minimize downtime or make new things work as intended and that doesn't happen exclusively inside a CLI.

That aside, even if someone is more comfortable typing out commands to get work accomplished, there's nothing that prevents you from propping up a tablet and connecting a USB keyboard to enter text more quickly. I think what heatless is getting at is that the tablet can be both exceptionally easy to carry around and flexible enough to act as a desktop in a nearly seamless manner (docking stations are clearly a requirement for the "nearly seamless" transitions, of course). Given that, there doesn't appear to be a legitimate downside to having one when you're using it for admin chores.

Seriously, I've never seen more emo-whining over a something as minor as a user interface change. It's -just- a computer, not your little sticky pretend love mistress.

 

[mope54]

the problem is that I can't figure out how to get the old functionality back. it's not like the desktop is the old desktop--it only superficially resembles it. last night I installed intel's ssd toolbox and now I can't figure out how to launch it since it doesn't work in any mode outside of desktop and there's no start button where all of my programs are conveniently listed.

it's taking me longer to do things and that doesn't feel like progress and it's not me stubbornly disliking change, either.

 

[SkribbelKat]

the problem is that I can't figure out how to get the old functionality back. it's not like the desktop is the old desktop--it only superficially resembles it. last night I installed intel's ssd toolbox and now I can't figure out how to launch it since it doesn't work in any mode outside of desktop and there's no start button where all of my programs are conveniently listed.

it's taking me longer to do things and that doesn't feel like progress and it's not me stubbornly disliking change, either.

It's no surprise that you're taking longer. It's natural and expected for efficiency to drop off when someone deals with something new. In the case of Windows 7, you've been using it for a good 2+ years and similar interfaces (guessing you had Win95) for around 17 years. Getting your brain recognize what to do in Win8 is significant, but we may as well all get used to it. Microsoft is doing their thing with Windows Phone 8 today (shared core OS components with Windows 8) and it looks like they've committed to Metro as a unified UI standard moving forward along with tight integration between a Metro tablet and the phone. We're on the cusp of platform convergence on the MS side with the UI everyone despises leading the charge.

 

[mope54]

how do I start up an application like intel ssd toolbox then?

 

[SkribbelKat]

how do I start up an application like intel ssd toolbox then?

By using a bottle of gypsy tears and a sprinkle of roasted garlic. Go download the latest preview and play with it.

 

[mope54]

I am using the latest preview. Apparently you don't know what you're talking about so stfu and let the adults continue the conversation.

heatlesssun, can you let us know how these types of applications are supposed to be started in win8?
I've also noticed some legit pains with silverlight

 

[{NG}Fidel]

I like windows 8, and like always on these type of sties (anand, Hard, Beyond3d) people are going to just moan and whine aobut something new and honestly the reason I feel is more because they dont want to spend money so they justify it by bashing the new OS. And as always about 4 to 5 months after the OS has been out and once the majority of enthusiasts are using it, those people that were previously hating on it will be mising out and uddenly shut there traps.

 

[Tawnos]

how do I start up an application like intel ssd toolbox then?

Press windows key.
Type intel
Click or press enter to launch the toolbox

Alternatively:
From desktop, launch the search charm (win + Q or from the charms bar on right click search)
Look through list of programs
Click the toolbox

 

[mope54]

Press windows key.
Type intel
Click or press enter to launch the toolbox

Alternatively:
From desktop, launch the search charm (win + Q or from the charms bar on right click search)
Look through list of programs
Click the toolbox

There's no windows key on tablets nor when I vnc in from a non-MS keyboard

this is one of the problems with making a hybrid OS without focus--many people in here knocking people for being stuck in an old paradigm but the solution you're giving to some of this UI's issues is to rely on the old paradigm...it doesn't work as it's no longer available.

try to use the UI without the common MS hotkeys and you'll see more problems that some of us are having

 

[SkribbelKat]

I am using the latest preview. Apparently you don't know what you're talking about so stfu and let the adults continue the conversation.

heatlesssun, can you let us know how these types of applications are supposed to be started in win8?
I've also noticed some legit pains with silverlight

So your panties are in a bunch because Intel hasn't updated their software to be complaint with an unreleased OS.

 

[Hamish Campbell]

So your panties are in a bunch because Intel hasn't updated their software to be complaint with an unreleased OS.

He has a good point. It's not just intel. There's about a million software vendors and about a billion legacy programs that are affected.

 

[SkribbelKat]

He has a good point. It's not just intel. There's about a million software vendors and about a billion legacy programs that are affected.

Of course he has a point, but we are talking about an operating system that won't be released for a while. I expect a lot of stuff to be broken in this process, but that responsibility is on the software vendors, not Microsoft.

 

[mope54]

Of course he has a point, but we are talking about an operating system that won't be released for a while. I expect a lot of stuff to be broken in this process, but that responsibility is on the software vendors, not Microsoft.

silverlight is the responsibility of MS unless I'm mistaken

 

[mope54]

and besides, this is a design failure because i'm not talking about windows 8 in general I specifically stated this is an issue when using the legacy desktop UI. it's not working like the old desktop, which it should if that's the reason for it!

 

[SkribbelKat]

silverlight is the responsibility of MS unless I'm mistaken

If it's important to them, they'll get around to updating it. If it's not important to them, then they won't bother.

and besides, this is a design failure because i'm not talking about windows 8 in general I specifically stated this is an issue when using the legacy desktop UI. it's not working like the old desktop, which it should if that's the reason for it!

I don't recall reading in the dev blog that they were trying to exactly duplicate the Win7 desktop. I'm pretty sure that doing so wasn't their intent.

 

[Hamish Campbell]

Of course he has a point, but we are talking about an operating system that won't be released for a while. I expect a lot of stuff to be broken in this process, but that responsibility is on the software vendors, not Microsoft.

A while is sooner than you think and the responsibility is shared here. Microsoft is fundamentally altering the users experience and their interaction with software. It may ultimately be the best direction and a good move to make. However, given the semi-standardized PC/windows-centric ecosystem they've cultivated for the better part of 40 years MS can't expect that the businesses and users who've supported them will adjust virtually overnight. So what can MS do to make this transition smoother? They can fix their shit with the legacy desktop tool first and foremost because it's what nearly every piece of software written for their OS is designed to work around.

 

[XamediX]

Press windows key.
Type intel
Click or press enter to launch the toolbox

Alternatively:
From desktop, launch the search charm (win + Q or from the charms bar on right click search)
Look through list of programs
Click the toolbox

There's no windows key on tablets nor when I vnc in from a non-MS keyboard. try to use the UI without the common MS hotkeys and you'll see more problems that some of us are having

I think mope is being difficult on purpose. There is no windows key on tablets. Because swiping from the right to make it show up is that difficult. Silverlight is one example of an application that MS has control over, the vast majority, they don't. If you are "VNC"ing into a windows system and your vnc client has no windows+key functionality, then get a new VNC client. I figured that's standard by now.

 

[SkribbelKat]

A while is sooner than you think and the responsibility is shared here. Microsoft is fundamentally altering the users experience and their interaction with software. It may ultimately be the best direction and a good move to make. However, given the semi-standardized PC/windows-centric ecosystem they've cultivated for the better part of 40 years MS can't expect that the businesses and users who've supported them will adjust virtually overnight. So what can MS do to make this transition smoother? They can fix their shit with the legacy desktop tool first and foremost because it's what nearly every piece of software written for their OS is designed to work around.

Microsoft has been providing previews for literally anyone to play with since September 13, 2011. It's June 2012 right now.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/13/welcome-to-windows-8-the-developer-preview.aspx

Oh, and Windows 8 hasn't gone on sale yet. It's still a preview.

 

[mope54]

I think mope is being difficult on purpose. There is no windows key on tablets. Because swiping from the right to make it show up is that difficult. Silverlight is one example of an application that MS has control over, the vast majority, they don't. If you are "VNC"ing into a windows system and your vnc client has no windows+key functionality, then get a new VNC client. I figured that's standard by now.

no, i'm not being difficult

the problem you don't understand, because you apparently aren't using the preview (if you were the problems I mentioned become immediately obvious), is that when you do what you're suggesting--swiping to search, or the advice of using the search widget from the sidebar, is that the legacy programs don't show up.

the problem I pointed out is that the legacy desktop doesn't look like and doesn't work like the desktop it's supposed to represent which makes things more difficult to use. whether software vendors should have to rework their code to address that is a moot point. if this were about metro then my point wouldn't have much weight, but since it's about the legacy desktop it means that users are just going to pass on the headache

 

[mope54]

swiping from the right isn't working in the legacy desktop so either something's wrong with my install or something else

I'm not even sure how someone using a mouse *could* or *would* swipe from the right in metro or the legacy desktop

so my htpc keyboard doesn't have a windows key and my trackball doesn't get me anywhere on this windows 8 preview



I don't know what the motivation is for some of these posters' comments but the sad reality is that a fair number of us on this board like to use things and fiddle with things and that's been the heart of the site from the first day. I'm not quite sure why these noobs are flogging long-time members after we report our experiences trying shit out

go try it out on a range of hardware: try it in on a htpc with a portable/wireless keyboard, try it with a trackball, try it with a mouse, try it via android, or touchpad, or a VM from a macbook. I've tried it on all of them that I just listed and it's working like shit. now the only thing I haven't tried is on my traditional desktop, where I'm sure it will function just peachy. of course, that's idiotic to "test" something on a known, working platform in my opinion :\

 

[SkribbelKat]

I don't know what the motivation is for some of these posters' comments but the sad reality is that a fair number of us on this board like to use things and fiddle with things and that's been the heart of the site from the first day. I'm not quite sure why these noobs are flogging long-time members after we report our experiences trying shit out

That's a good mix of "I'm a forum veteran," and "I'm a victim," you resorted to once you ran out of valid arguments.

 

[mope54]

just trying to figure out why you're sucking microsoft's dick so hard over this topic

 

[SkribbelKat]

just trying to figure out why you're sucking microsoft's dick so hard over this topic

I'm hoping they'll notice my support and get in touch with me so they can ship a free Microsoft branded mouse pad to me. I need a new one since my Babbage's mouse pad is starting to fall apart.

 

[mope54]

I'm hoping they'll notice my support and get in touch with me so they can ship a free Microsoft branded mouse pad to me. I need a new one since my Babbage's mouse pad is starting to fall apart.

lol, touche

alright I got shit to do but I'll be back later (provided I don't get banned for my comment above )

 

[XamediX]

no, i'm not being difficult

the problem you don't understand, because you apparently aren't using the preview (if you were the problems I mentioned become immediately obvious), is that when you do what you're suggesting--swiping to search, or the advice of using the search widget from the sidebar, is that the legacy programs don't show up.

the problem I pointed out is that the legacy desktop doesn't look like and doesn't work like the desktop it's supposed to represent which makes things more difficult to use. whether software vendors should have to rework their code to address that is a moot point. if this were about metro then my point wouldn't have much weight, but since it's about the legacy desktop it means that users are just going to pass on the headache

Sweeping assumptions aren't the best look for you man. I have Windows 8 RP installed on a VM on my Win7 machine. I have this app called splashtop that allows me to connect to that same install and use the touch-based functionality of that same system but on my galaxy tab. I linked to it earlier in the thread. If you have an ipad or tablet you should check it out, its pretty dope.

So when I said swipe right, I was referring to your statement that when you are on a tablet you don't have a windows key to use to bring up that panel on the right. Yet it seems you thought I was referring to desktops? All else fails you just point your cursor to the lower right corner.

The only major difference in the new desktop is that it doesn't have a start menu. But I'm sure as soon as you cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it... you'll be fine. So I think I understand fine. I think it's you who doesn't want to understand. Or at the very least its a tie. But don't try to put the blame on someone else entirely. =)

 

[XamediX]

Also give me a legacy program I can test this situation with. I am curious. From what I gather certain programs don't show up in the search results regardless? That is what you said right? Give me one to install or find and I'll see what happens. Because I don't quite believe you. But hey it is a beta version so stranger things can happen.

 

[mope54]

Also give me a legacy program I can test this situation with. I am curious. From what I gather certain programs don't show up in the search results regardless? That is what you said right? Give me one to install or find and I'll see what happens. Because I don't quite believe you. But hey it is a beta version so stranger things can happen.

I already pointed out two programs I'm having issue with: intel's ssd toolbox in legacy desktop and silverlight in metro. Try to run this http://simeonpilgrim.com/nikon-patch/Nikon-Patch.html and you should experience a glaring issue

I'd appreciate it if you tried both and left your impressions here

 

[mope54]

The only major difference in the new desktop is that it doesn't have a start menu. But I'm sure as soon as you cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it... you'll be fine. So I think I understand fine. I think it's you who doesn't want to understand. Or at the very least its a tie. But don't try to put the blame on someone else entirely. =)

You guys keep calling it a "start menu" but the thing that win8 lacks is a centralized repository for installed applications.

the closest it has to that is in metro...with them splattered across the "desktop" in a twisted mess. that's the opposite of organization. And that's only if they are compatible and show up there, however. If they aren't then you need to go into the legacy desktop and launch them from there. Since there's no "start menu" as you put it, you have to figure out how to get the search to work. I've listed a few instances where it either doesn't work or is more difficult than it should be. that is, it slows down the user not because of lack of familiarity but because of its actual design.

then, once the user does actually get the search function working, he or she has to know the name or a partial name of the program to launch it. and that's not necessarily a given. the final problem is that apparently at least some applications don't show up in the search.