Windows 8: A Design Disaster

heatlesssun

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Can't say that was my experience at all, and I had numerous Windows between 2006 and 2010 until I got an Android..

If the last time you tried a Windows Phone was in 2010 then it wasn't a Windows Phone. Those didn't launch until November 2010, you must be talking about Windows Mobile, big difference.
 

potency

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If the last time you tried a Windows Phone was in 2010 then it wasn't a Windows Phone. Those didn't launch until November 2010, you must be talking about Windows Mobile, big difference.

You would be correct. But it would be hard for me to purchase any MS powered device based on my experiences and read-the-fine-print 30-day satisfaction policies. I'll admit though that I'll be checking them out now that my contract is up, you've opened my eyes. Android isn't the "everything and a bag of chips" that it could be, and I'm about as loyal to any product as Yoenis Cespedes is to Fidel Castro.
 

Dekoth-E-

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But for the overwhelming amount of time that one actually spends using and launching programs there's no difference in mouse clicks. The three areas where this subject comes up is shutting down, searching and accessing All Programs. The amount of time that most people do these things is totally insignificant compared to everything else in which there is absolutely no difference in mouse clicks.



Of course its subjective. I transition between different devices and input methods in Windows, its become core to how I use Windows. People who use Windows 8 in this fashion and with hardware that supports it will probably tend to like it more than people who only use it with mouse and keyboard. Microsoft understands this and its one of the reasons why they are building PCs for the first time in their history.

Because clicking and dragging is so much better than just clicking......:rolleyes:

Glad it works for you..it doesn't for me and as evidenced by this article and many others, it doesn't work for quite a few.

You seem so convinced that Devs are going to flock to Win 8 apps and that people are going to snap them up. Sure developers might initially go there, but if no one wants the apps well you see how long developers stuck with Google plus.

The problem with the assumption that metro apps are going to succeed on a regular desktop/laptop is that unlike mobile devices there is little need. If I want productivity software, I have tons of choices, If I want games I have tons of choices, if I want different browsers I have tons of choices. What exactly does the App market offer to a non touch device other than a headache for developers? Angry birds is about all I can come up with..Yea, real compelling.

In order for that app market to have a chance. MS is going to need to saturate the market with Touch win 8 devices quickly. Price is king in this area and we all know that all the Win 8 tablets thus far are anything but cheap. You can quote the install base being millions nearly overnight all you want, but the reality is the gross majority of those installs Don't benefit one bit from an app market. There is literally nothing on the app store that I would ever want on my PC as there are too many choices of things that do it better. This is the point that some of you just completely ignore over and over and over and thread after thread. The reason why metro is a terrible decision for a non touch device is it does not offer a Single benefit. The app store is not a benefit, having to go through more actions to close programs is not a benefit, having the entire functional productivity ui gutted is not a benefit. The entire point some of us have been trying to make and the one that this thread is about is that Win 8 from a non touch perspective is just an absolutely god awful design.

Win 8 if it has any chance must have both the hardware and the Apps at a price that lets it compete in the mobile space directly against Apple and Android. If MS is relying on desktop/laptop users, it is going to fail miserably because it offers nothing but negatives to that experience. Do not counter this post with another pie in the sky "But but next gen hardware, or touch" or any other retarded argument that tries to ignore the fact that a Desktop and Laptop are NOT touch driven devices. This debate is about If windows 8 brings better overall experience to the desktop environment and the fact is, It Does Not. Desktops are never going to mainstream be touch driven, because holding your arm up to do things that a resting arm barely moving a mouse can do is a monumentally stupid design.
 

Acer_Sheep

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What is actually a bad idea about it all is that it describes everything you have installed as apps. It's otherwise plain stupid because app(or at least the short word from application) is small single-use program for tablets and phones and so on. I don't consider high performance software such as photoshop, autocad, open office or similar to be apps. It was prior to 2011+ never used in corelation with computer programs. So I consider it as stupid either if we speak about desktop operating system.
 

heatlesssun

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Whose fault is it that application developers are allowed to do practically anything they want with the Close button?

Well if you're implying that it's Microsoft's fault ok. However I'm not exactly sure how Microsoft could control individual programs running on the desktop since they have no control over desktop programs.

Microsoft has provided guidance on many things over the years including UIs but developers were under no obligation to adhere to those guidelines.
 

wonderfield

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Well if you're implying that it's Microsoft's fault ok. However I'm not exactly sure how Microsoft could control individual programs running on the desktop since they have no control over desktop programs.
Considering it's Microsoft's implementation you have to work with to create a window, yes, they do. Or at least they could have had such control. Currently, you check for the WM_DESTROY message in your pump and then you do whatever the hell you want with that. This isn't how it should be.
 

heatlesssun

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Do not counter this post with another pie in the sky "But but next gen hardware, or touch" or any other retarded argument that tries to ignore the fact that a Desktop and Laptop are NOT touch driven devices. This debate is about If windows 8 brings better overall experience to the desktop environment and the fact is, It Does Not. Desktops are never going to mainstream be touch driven, because holding your arm up to do things that a resting arm barely moving a mouse can do is a monumentally stupid design.

First of all I've never claimed that Windows 8 had a lot in it focused solely on the desktop. That said it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to put a lot of effort on desktops at this time, especially in the consumer world.

But I understand that you're focused on efficiency and productivity and not so much things aimed at average people. If the future of the PC lies in desktops and keyboards and mice and that will be a healthy, growing and interesting market for average people into the future then Windows 8 is the wrong thing. And while Windows 7 has been very successful the world really doesn't seem to care about the desktop anymore beyond the thing dad works one. Windows has a serious interest deficit these days. And while you think that Metro has no place or use on the desktop it can create some visually appealing apps that are even better on bigger screens.
 

heatlesssun

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Considering it's Microsoft's implementation you have to work with to create a window, yes, they do. Or at least they could have had such control. Currently, you check for the WM_DESTROY message in your pump and then you do whatever the hell you want with that. This isn't how it should be.

So a developer shouldn't have the freedom to create a window in whatever fashion he or she sees fit? Does any desktop OS enforce UI consistency in its presentation engine? Plus were talking about some ancient APIs here.
 

Jagger100

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Note to Microsoft.

Smartphones took off with people where PCs didn't. True. But its not the swipe interface. That's a compromise.

Smartphones took off with people where PCs didn't because they have an illusion of an off button (which usually does work as one).

I can yank the battery out of a smartphone out of the blue and unless its installing something, it almost never breaks anything.

They don't want swipe. They just don't want to agonize over doing the wrong thing. Smartphones have much much less of that than a PC.
 

phred15

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after I got over my shock of seeing the desktop for the first time. I started asking questions and started getting around in it. It works OK but it isn't something I would buy or even steal. I'm back to wind 7 now.
 

wonderfield

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It actually means "no". Seems easy enough to infer, but apparently I've misjudged your capacity to draw logical inferences.
 

RamonGTP

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I've only read the first few replies in this thread but after using win 8 preview, I completely agree. I'm just not feeling this "hybrid" OS.
 

heatlesssun

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It actually means "no". Seems easy enough to infer, but apparently I've misjudged your capacity to draw logical inferences.

I was being sarcastic, obviously you see an issue with the Windows UI consistency and that's fair enough. I just didn't think that there were any such conventions enforced in the API of any desktop OS.
 

Red Falcon

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I've only read the first few replies in this thread but after using win 8 preview, I completely agree. I'm just not feeling this "hybrid" OS.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see how it can integrate into an enterprise environment, if at all.
 

heatlesssun

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Yeah, it will be interesting to see how it can integrate into an enterprise environment, if at all.

Functionally, the Surface Pro can fit perfectly into the enterprise as it's practically 100% backwards compatible with Windows 7. The RT version on the other hand doesn't support domains, which does seem like an odd thing to leave out but at the same time Cedar Trail devices probably can fill that role for cheaper Windows 8/RT devices.
 

heatlesssun

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What are they admins of, Angry Birds high scores?

For checking on a process, starting, stopping or restarting something, that type of common activity it's pretty quick and easy to do a lot of those kinds of things from a tablet.
 

SkribbelKat

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I hear people around here all the time how they use tablets just for this purpose.

I don't currently use a tablet for my work, but I don't see why you couldn't remotely access server instances, perform basic account management activities, or monitor system health from one. It seems like a pretty good idea and the tools already exist for that purpose.

Okay, I admit that doesn't rule out doing the exact same thing on Windows 7 with a laptop, netbook, or anything else, but why not a Windows 8 tablet?
 

heatlesssun

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Okay, I admit that doesn't rule out doing the exact same thing on Windows 7 with a laptop, netbook, or anything else, but why not a Windows 8 tablet?

I've been logging into machines remotely with tablets for years, it's perfectly fine for simple and straight forward things. Not saying everyone would dig it but I've been using the Windows desktop with touch for a long time, I have a good feel for things that work well and things that don't via touch on the Windows desktop.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much is that Microsoft has done some work with fuzzy targeting with touch on the Windows 8 desktop and with the addition of the ribbon it's actually quite workable to do file administration and other basic tasks with touch.
 

nOrVow

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I suppose it'll be good for on-the-go network monitoring.. good point. But that's as far as it'll go before any serious maintenance is needed. Managing multiple bash shells on a tablet would be a PITA.
 

Red Falcon

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For checking on a process, starting, stopping or restarting something, that type of common activity it's pretty quick and easy to do a lot of those kinds of things from a tablet.

You can keep it.
Tablets have their place, but not as an admin tool, at least not a secure or functional one.
 

Dekoth-E-

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First of all I've never claimed that Windows 8 had a lot in it focused solely on the desktop. That said it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to put a lot of effort on desktops at this time, especially in the consumer world.

But I understand that you're focused on efficiency and productivity and not so much things aimed at average people. If the future of the PC lies in desktops and keyboards and mice and that will be a healthy, growing and interesting market for average people into the future then Windows 8 is the wrong thing. And while Windows 7 has been very successful the world really doesn't seem to care about the desktop anymore beyond the thing dad works one. Windows has a serious interest deficit these days. And while you think that Metro has no place or use on the desktop it can create some visually appealing apps that are even better on bigger screens.

I never said that, however you have deflected every single argument against win 8 on a desktop/laptop by throwing the next gen hardware argument out. You aren't the only one though.

Again, the debate isn't is Win 8 a good tablet OS. We all generally acknowledge that it is and given the right circumstances may compete against apple and android. That is yet to be seen though.

This article is all about what Win 8 offers to the non touch device, and the fact is even by your own admission, not much.

Facts that cannot be forgotten;
  • Desktops Still outnumber Tablets. While tablets may be outselling desktops, they still have a Long way to go before they will outnumber desktops. Laptops outsold desktops for a long time and never outnumbered them.
  • The next major consideration is that the life cycle on a desktop is typically longer than a mobile device. As such there isn't a need to replace them as often, resulting in seemingly lower sales. Laptops and tablets are going to be replaced far more often due to lack of upgrade options and the simple fact that mobile devices get broken more.
  • Tablets and touch devices aren't going to replace the traditional desktop productivity machine in a corporate environment, or at least not in the foreseeable future. I seriously doubt this will ever happen and there aren't too many arguments grounded in business reality that would deny that. Corporate clients make up a huge percentage of the market and are more than big enough to keep the desktop as a primary device for years to come.
  • The desktop is indeed becoming less necessary in the average users hands for personal use. This market is certainly fading and while a large market, hardly the entire market. Microsoft certainly does need to focus on emerging trends here. However for the segment of "home users" who aren't in the average user category, there is no sense alienating them.
  • Tablets just like desktops and laptops will eventually hit a saturation point. What that point is, we don't know. Will it be one in every household? Will it replace other devices completely? Will it be complimentary to other devices? Those are questions that none of us have the answer too. Even if they do replace a traditional laptop and desktop for the average user, merging the tablet experience with the desktop experience is a retarded idea. All it accomplishes is alienating the two very large remaining groups who aren't going away and discourages them from upgrading their OS. It essentially forces another Win XP situation which MS has claimed they want to avoid.
 

nOrVow

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lmfao

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