Windows 11 Will Soon Block All Default Browser Workarounds

LukeTbk

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Imagine if Microsoft said you had to use their built in image viewing program (which is really rudimentary) or had to use Skype/Teams as your ONLY chat program. Same thing. This should be obvious to someone at Microsoft how stupid it is.
This seem completely signifcantly different.

It would be if in Microsoft word you clicked the help or about and it use microsoft built in image viewing program or skype in there I think.

A lot of people use different chat program or image viewing program, very few use edge deflector to intercept OS-level url request.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I fell like many people on tech forums have forgotten (or never knew) what computing was like in the early 2000's, but still think like it should be the early 2000's. The way we use computers now is so much different, with so many devices, online accounts and such. While there are plenty of people (myself included) who resist that, it is clear that the mass usage of computers is going the way of always online, always connected, and remotely managed. Microsoft moving Windows into a more controlled (by Microsoft) environment is necessary to stay dominant. Take the Apple ecosystem, where you have significantly less control than on a Windows computer. So many people don't mind that lack of control because the MacOS "integrates so well with all of my other Apple devices." (I've heard that exact line so many times I want to puke). It's a fine line Microsoft has to walk in order to compete with that but at the same time not totally close off their system (like Apple has) which would cut off the bulk of their users.

Ugh, I know.

I hate this with every ounce of my being.

I want my systems to behave like they are not connected to a network at all, unless I explicitly tell them to do something.

The default should always be "the network doesn't even exist, I won't even try to use it". If I want some form of online automation, I should have to opti in to it and configure it myself.

This modern "everything cloud, always online" bullshit makes me want to burn down all of silicon valley on a regular basis.

So in the end, over what is a minor, minor issue, shouting "Switch to Linux" is going to fall on deaf ears.

I partially agree here.

I'm not pushing for anyone to switch to linux. But I am also not going to discourage anyone who wants to try and learn something new along the way.

In fact, I feel like the push for "the year of the Linux Desktop" has done more harm than good in general. It has driven a lot of changes in Linux I don't really like, ones that make it more and more like windows, with binary blob distribution, statically linked dependencies, etc. etc.

If Linux has to become more like Windows in order to attain mass adoption, honesly, I'd rather it just doesn't achieve mass adoption. I like my Linux the way it is.

Actually, I liked my Linux the way it was in 2014. I feel Ubuntu Server LTS 14.04 was the absolute peak.

No SystemD (and also not Sysinit. I thought Upstart was a brilliant alternative and am sad it is dead), No Netplan, (I love my ifup/down), no snaps, flatpak, Appimage or any kind of nonsense like that.

Most modern developments in Linux have been negatives, IMHO. The only one I am looking forward to is Wayland, as it is going to solve some really irritating limitations with Xorg.

(And yes, I know Wayland is already out there, but I only use LTS based distributions, so not yet for me)

All of my systems (except my clients) are usually on the oldest supported LTS release, and when that LTS release goes EOL, they get upgraded to the next LTS release (not the newest one)

I was really sad when I had to retire my 14.04 boxes 2 years ago. (I wasn't about to subscribe to ESM support)

I only just upgraded them from 16.04 to 18.04, and did so reluctantly. Every new release has some new bullshit in it I hate.
 

1_rick

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Have you installed an Ubuntu or Mint distribution lately?

It just works. No driver installation, no configuration needed.
Well, right up until it doesn't. Try plugging in a modern usb wifi adapter, unless they finally got around to putting the drivers for the most common Realtek chip those use into the kernel. The last time I looked into it, less than a year ago, the recommendation was to just tether an android phone.
 

cybereality

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You can get Wi-Fi adapters that work, but you have to do some research. If you buy any random adapter, it is not guaranteed to work.

And I think the Realtek chip used in the faster USB dongles doesn't have kernel support, but you can get it working with a community driver.

In any case, Intel AX200 series Wi-Fi 6 is fully supported in the kernel. Though they don't have USB adapters, if you get a PCIe card it is guaranteed to work with no problems.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Well, right up until it doesn't. Try plugging in a modern usb wifi adapter, unless they finally got around to putting the drivers for the most common Realtek chip those use into the kernel. The last time I looked into it, less than a year ago, the recommendation was to just tether an android phone.

The number one rule of networking on any operating system is as follows.

Never use Realtek for anything. Even when there is driver support it sucks.

The golden rule of networking is Intel, Intel, Intel Intel.

If Intel isn't an option, Broadcom will work. (Their NetXtreme adapters weren't bad.)

But never under any circumstance use Realtek unless you like low speeds that don't hit the standard, random disconnects, and other random weird problems.
 

Lakados

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Ugh, I know.

I hate this with every ounce of my being.

I want my systems to behave like they are not connected to a network at all, unless I explicitly tell them to do something.

The default should always be "the network doesn't even exist, I won't even try to use it". If I want some form of online automation, I should have to opti in to it and configure it myself.

This modern "everything cloud, always online" bullshit makes me want to burn down all of silicon valley on a regular basis.



I partially agree here.

I'm not pushing for anyone to switch to linux. But I am also not going to discourage anyone who wants to try and learn something new along the way.

In fact, I feel like the push for "the year of the Linux Desktop" has done more harm than good in general. It has driven a lot of changes in Linux I don't really like, ones that make it more and more like windows, with binary blob distribution, statically linked dependencies, etc. etc.

If Linux has to become more like Windows in order to attain mass adoption, honesly, I'd rather it just doesn't achieve mass adoption. I like my Linux the way it is.

Actually, I liked my Linux the way it was in 2014. I feel Ubuntu Server LTS 14.04 was the absolute peak.

No SystemD (and also not Sysinit. I thought Upstart was a brilliant alternative and am sad it is dead), No Netplan, (I love my ifup/down), no snaps, flatpak, Appimage or any kind of nonsense like that.

Most modern developments in Linux have been negatives, IMHO. The only one I am looking forward to is Wayland, as it is going to solve some really irritating limitations with Xorg.

(And yes, I know Wayland is already out there, but I only use LTS based distributions, so not yet for me)

All of my systems (except my clients) are usually on the oldest supported LTS release, and when that LTS release goes EOL, they get upgraded to the next LTS release (not the newest one)

I was really sad when I had to retire my 14.04 boxes 2 years ago. (I wasn't about to subscribe to ESM support)

I only just upgraded them from 16.04 to 18.04, and did so reluctantly. Every new release has some new bullshit in it I hate.
I love Linux as a server OS, you set it up you get your services running you schedule your backups and your updates get your networking rules in place and verified then you leave it the hell alone. Actually I love all servers for that. Desktop Linux is not for me, too many different programs I use just don’t work with each other out the gate and the more I have to tweak it to make it work the more stuff there is to go wrong when I update one thing and break 3 others.
Linux’s inherent flexibility is it’s greatest strength and ultimate weakness, it’s OS design by committee and every time somebody make a great OS and it gets too popular somebody forks it splits the community and resources then you are left with a formerly great OS and 5 forks trying to achieve what it once had. Linux is a beautiful symphony of chaos which makes it ultimately a powerful tool but unless somebody narrows down the support scope it is ultimately unsupportable as a mass desktop environment.
It’s a struggle to walk most people through clicking on menus they can read. I can’t imagine (and don’t want to imagine) walking through those same individuals through navigating to /etc/config.conf and walking them down to line XXX so they can type in dtoverlay=audremap,pins_18_19,enable_jack=on so they can have sound when no device is plugged in the HDMI.
 
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1_rick

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The number one rule of networking on any operating system is as follows.

Never use Realtek for anything. Even when there is driver support it sucks.

The golden rule of networking is Intel, Intel, Intel Intel.
How many USB wifi adapters with Intel chips exist and are easy to get, by walking into a Best Buy or Microcenter? Generally all I see are the Realtek ones. Like I said, I went through this about 6 months ago, and after a ton of googling, searching through half a dozen obsolete PPAs that only worked with older kernels, and so on, the recommendations I found, like I said, were "get a cheap Android phone". Which, to be fair, works. But it's stupid.
 

Lakados

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How many USB wifi adapters with Intel chips exist and are easy to get, by walking into a Best Buy or Microcenter? Generally all I see are the Realtek ones. Like I said, I went through this about 6 months ago, and after a ton of googling, searching through half a dozen obsolete PPAs that only worked with older kernels, and so on, the recommendations I found, like I said, were "get a cheap Android phone". Which, to be fair, works. But it's stupid.
I don’t like that this is so true….. but it really is. Keep an eye out for a cheap Dlink or Lynksys router, set it up to act as a wifi link back then you can just connect in via Ethernet. Much more reliable then you don’t have to mess with wifi drivers and you can use it for multiple devices real easy.
 

lopoetve

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I don’t like that this is so true….. but it really is. Keep an eye out for a cheap Dlink or Lynksys router, set it up to act as a wifi link back then you can just connect in via Ethernet. Much more reliable then you don’t have to mess with wifi drivers and you can use it for multiple devices real easy.
Simpler solution: buy a motherboard with WiFi or a PCIE card version. The USB adapters suck period.
 

ManofGod

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Honestly, at home, although I do have a Windows installation, I almost never use it and stick with Linux as my daily driver. I have been doing so for over 1.5 years as my primary and almost all the time only OS and it works great. Windows is not needed to get what I need done and if I really need to game with XBox games, I have a Series S which fulfill those needs quite nicely. You could say this is a none issue, the thread topic but, I would not use it anyways, since it is an excellent place for Microsoft to gather and harvest information from the user.
 

cybereality

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Yeah, I'm not a hater. While my main machine is Linux (for various reasons), I do have a second gaming PC and that is on Windows 11.

While Linux is great for a lot of stuff, there are still some compatibility problems. Like I play Forza 5 with my brother on Windows because we can talk on Xbox and I'm pretty sure that doesn't work on Linux.

And yes, I could probably get Forza to run (I know there were some problems at launch, maybe they've been fixed) but on Windows it will just be easier. Plus, I have the 4K monitor and FreeSync works in Windows.
 
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blandead

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I mean...if you make a website link on your desktop that specifically starts with microsoft-edge:// then you probably wanted it to start in edge rather than your default browser no?
 

cybereality

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eb2ae9062c1934a632a9298de5c81b84f43f243deac1d3cdb2d602ba385e4c8a_1.webp
 

Mazzspeed

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How many USB wifi adapters with Intel chips exist and are easy to get, by walking into a Best Buy or Microcenter? Generally all I see are the Realtek ones. Like I said, I went through this about 6 months ago, and after a ton of googling, searching through half a dozen obsolete PPAs that only worked with older kernels, and so on, the recommendations I found, like I said, were "get a cheap Android phone". Which, to be fair, works. But it's stupid.
How is that any fault of Linux specifically?

Any Realtek drivers you use under Linux are essentially reverse engineered Windows drivers created by the Linux community, Realtek as a company does not support Linux 'at all'. Likewise, under Windows I have plenty of perfectly good hardware here that isn't supported beyond Windows 7 at all - Furthermore the hardware isn't that old. I don't blame Microsoft for the lack of such hardware support, that would be silly. I have an FTDI chip here that works perfectly out the box under Linux but struggles using Windows drivers.

The year of the Linux desktop is whenever your willing to leave all preconceptions regarding 'all operating systems behaving like Windows' at the door and are prepared to learn something new. I started in ~2013 and never looked back, since then I've swapped everything over to Linux and essentially don't even think of the OS I'm running - I just get work done and use my PC the way I want to use it.
 

1_rick

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How is that any fault of Linux specifically?
I'm not blaming Linux. I'm saying that the most common USB wifi adapters don't work on Linux unless you spend hours of research and aren't afraid of compilers and messing with PPAs. Saying "move your computer into a room with a router so you can go wired" or "buy a second router" or "get a spare Android phone to do Internet sharing" are the exact same kind of answers people would rip Microsoft a new one for.
The year of the Linux desktop is whenever your willing to leave all preconceptions regarding 'all operating systems behaving like Windows' at the door and are prepared to learn something new.
I've been using Linux off and on since 0.99. I can use it for most stuff, but not my day job, and I don't see why "spend a bunch of time figuring out workarounds so you can play games" seems so reasonable to people.
 

cybereality

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I'm not blaming Linux. I'm saying that the most common USB wifi adapters don't work on Linux unless you spend hours of research and aren't afraid of compilers and messing with PPAs.
Yes, but those adapters were made for Windows, and the company made the choice to not release Linux drivers. Same reason most of those same adapters probably don't work on macOS either.

Like, am I going to complain to Sony that I bought Halo for Xbox and it doesn't work in my PS5? Doesn't make sense.
 

Mazzspeed

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I've been using Linux off and on since 0.99. I can use it for most stuff, but not my day job, and I don't see why "spend a bunch of time figuring out workarounds so you can play games" seems so reasonable to people.
With the advent of Proton and Lutris, I barely use workarounds at all - In fact I find the current situation regarding Linux gaming very impressive. Quite often when I was running Windows, I'd have to utilize workarounds to get titles to run under Windows itself; in fact quite often the workarounds I have to apply under Linux are the exact same workarounds needed to get the same title running under Windows.
 

cybereality

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I don't even check ProtonDB anymore. I'd say like 90% of the time I just install random games and they work fine. Sometimes there are small issues, but that is always the case with PC gaming, even on Windows, and they are usually fixable.
 

Mazzspeed

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I don't even check ProtonDB anymore. I'd say like 90% of the time I just install random games and they work fine. Sometimes there are small issues, but that is always the case with PC gaming, even on Windows, and they are usually fixable.
Totally.

Essentially, Linux is now Win32 compatible. the only issues are over the top client side DRM/Anti cheat.
 

GoldenTiger

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Totally.

Essentially, Linux is now Win32 compatible. the only issues are over the top client side DRM/Anti cheat.
It is? When can I run 3ds max, Photoshop, substance painter w/ drawing tablet, Zbrush, and visual studio on it? Microsoft office (word and excel)? Games with anticheat or drm?

Please. I'm sure desktop Linux is a cool toy for some into it but that's a hyperbolic claim.
 

ChosenUno

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Pretty off-topic but it's hilarious that anytime somebody complains about things not working in Linux, it's always the same responses pushing the blame elsewhere. THAT is why Linux will never take off.

As an OS, it is its job to make sure things run on it, not the other way around. MS learnt this with Vista, remember how much of a shitshow it was when things broke? Imagine that 24/7, you have Linux.
 

cybereality

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Linux has already taken off, at least in some form.

Android is the most popular OS of all time, and that is the Linux kernel. ChromeOS also has a small but sizable market.

But Google took out the confusing parts of Linux and made it easy for average people to use, in fact easier than even Windows.
 

GoldenTiger

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Linux has already taken off, at least in some form.

Android is the most popular OS of all time, and that is the Linux kernel. ChromeOS also has a small but sizable market.

But Google took out the confusing parts of Linux and made it easy for average people to use, in fact easier than even Windows.
We're talking desktop Linux... Nice goalpost moving you have there though. Android is not Linux anyway.
 

Lakados

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Linux has already taken off, at least in some form.

Android is the most popular OS of all time, and that is the Linux kernel. ChromeOS also has a small but sizable market.

But Google took out the confusing parts of Linux and made it easy for average people to use, in fact easier than even Windows.
Perfect examples of Linux environments where the support scope has been greatly reduced. Making it something that is feasible to be used by the masses.
 

1_rick

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At the end of the day, Realtek chipsets suck balls anyway, go get a real WiFi adapter.
Ah, the typical "git gud, noob" Linux snob attitude comes out, coupled with no suggestion for an actual part that would work. Nice. Meanwhile I'm looking at Micro Center's category listing and not seeing a single one yet that supports Linux. I bet Best Buy will have similar results.

Edit: so far I've seen Asus, Linksys, Trendnet, Tenda, TP-Link, and Netgear models, none of which list Linux.
 

Lakados

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We're talking desktop Linux... Nice goalpost moving you have there though. Android is not Linux anyway.
Chrome OS can be argued to be a desktop environment. But is it still Linux when all the flexibility of Linux is removed. Sure it’s based on Linux but at what point is something based on Linux no longer linux but an entity of its own?
 

Lakados

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Ah, the typical "git gud, noob" Linux snob attitude comes out, coupled with no suggestion for an actual part that would work. Nice. Meanwhile I'm looking at Micro Center's category listing and not seeing a single one yet that supports Linux. I bet Best Buy will have similar results.
It’s issues like that why I will always recommend the cheapest wifi router you can buy that has the ability to act as a wireless hub will always be my recommendation for how to get wireless on a Linux box that doesn’t have a good one built onto the MB.
Drivers for USB wifi dongles are a crap shoot and helpful troubleshooting just slightly better than non existent.
 

1_rick

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It’s issues like that why I will always recommend the cheapest wifi router you can buy that has the ability to act as a wireless hub will always be my recommendation for how to get wireless on a Linux box that doesn’t have a good one built onto the MB.
Drivers for USB wifi dongles are a crap shoot and helpful troubleshooting just slightly better than non existent.
Yeah, but I just got told "get a real wifi adapter" without any named ones. The top seller on Amazon, btw, says it only supports thru kernel 4.4.3. There are a couple of Panda wireless-N models. Really slim pickings, though.

Personally I found that the Android tethering recommendation works best--although if you didn't already have one, that could well be more pricy than buying a spare router.
 

ManofGod

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Pretty off-topic but it's hilarious that anytime somebody complains about things not working in Linux, it's always the same responses pushing the blame elsewhere. THAT is why Linux will never take off.

As an OS, it is its job to make sure things run on it, not the other way around. MS learnt this with Vista, remember how much of a shitshow it was when things broke? Imagine that 24/7, you have Linux.

Interesting, you could be right, for you. However, I have experienced nothing like what you said above and of course, I never experienced that with Vista, either which, in my opinion, was the last best OS that Microsoft made. (Everything since then has been average, at best.)
 

ManofGod

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Yeah, but I just got told "get a real wifi adapter" without any named ones. The top seller on Amazon, btw, says it only supports thru kernel 4.4.3. There are a couple of Panda wireless-N models. Really slim pickings, though.

Personally I found that the Android tethering recommendation works best--although if you didn't already have one, that could well be more pricy than buying a spare router.

What, you literally do not have a spare PCIe slot?
 

lopoetve

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USB wifi is a bit of an oddball; they’re crap cards under anything. PCIE ones are cheap and easy; and those work well. I get both sides- I really do- because office stuff and one note just don’t work well on linux, and that’s the most important for real long term success
 

cybereality

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The Intel AX200 line of Wi-Fi 6 PCIe cards have built-in kernel support, and are some of the fastest Wi-Fi you can buy today. It works fine, I've tried a few models.

Also, my motherboard Wi-Fi 6 also works perfectly out-of-box, not sure why a USB adapter is even needed unless you have some old computer and can't spare a PCIe slot.
 

Lakados

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Pretty off-topic but it's hilarious that anytime somebody complains about things not working in Linux, it's always the same responses pushing the blame elsewhere. THAT is why Linux will never take off.

As an OS, it is its job to make sure things run on it, not the other way around. MS learnt this with Vista, remember how much of a shitshow it was when things broke? Imagine that 24/7, you have Linux.
At least in Vista's case, they broke compatibility in a good way, with XP most drivers were written accessing the Kernel directly ignoring the API's, in Vista, they were forced to close off direct Kernel access and they did so very late in the game, like in the last Beta release before they launched Retail. Most vendors who could afford it the most notorious being HP decided that re-writing the drivers for the API was a waste of time for existing products and instead only rewrote those drivers for newer hardware releases. A lot of people crap all over Creative for this as well but I am pretty sure they did get drivers out eventually just really late for their older and legacy products. But at least in Microsoft's case, they knew driver support was coming, in Linux, if it wasn't there on day one it's not likely to come at all.
 
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