Windows 11 leak reveals new UI, Start menu, and more (UPDATE - added source for Windows 10 retirement date)

schoolslave

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Actually, the more I learn about TPM, the more I think it's a good idea, BUT it should be optional for DIY builders.

Yes, force Dell and others to sell compliant hardware, but if someone has an older machine and does not want or can't afford a whole new rig, at least give them the option of the new OS.But if it's really that important for security to MS, then fine, I will accept it. I do think the security benefits are substantial.
The TPM provides security for Microsoft and “content providers” - there is ZERO benefit to you the user (at least as Microsoft currently describes the “security” aspects). In fact it is much more likely this “security” will actively hurt you the user by arbitrarily locking down parts of your hardware.

FWIW and FYI Microsoft tried this same shit over a decade ago: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/idiotic_article.html and linked from there: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html. Luckily back then enough people complained and it didn’t go all the way as Microsoft planned - nowadays? Sounds like most users are on their knees and lubed up to be used instead.
 
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defaultluser

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Actually, the more I learn about TPM, the more I think it's a good idea, BUT it should be optional for DIY builders.

Yes, force Dell and others to sell compliant hardware, but if someone has an older machine and does not want or can't afford a whole new rig, at least give them the option of the new OS.

But if it's really that important for security to MS, then fine, I will accept it. I do think the security benefits are substantial.

I disagree - the theory of TPM is fine, but the implementation is clunky - the integration is customized for every motherboard.

This mean that, if there is a major exploit on TPM 2.0 tomorrow, then, you will have to replace your entire system (its going to be too much of a cluster shipping new modules / or new motherboards for those without a slot!)

There are other successful approaches to two-factor hardware authentication that work through a standard USB drive, forever getting around this "Customized TPM platform" weakness.

https://www.yubico.com/why-yubico/how-the-yubikey-works/

if someone hacks your usb key. then you just replace it before you get owned...you'll be waiting months to get a replacement RMA motherboard with these fixes in the TPM camp! This clunkines is the same reason why MS blacklisted real Skylake TPM 2.0 slot-upgrade systems - I guess they would rather not have to work around the cluster that is mixed TPM platforms?
 
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pendragon1

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I disagree - the theory of TPM is fine, but the implementation is clunky - the integration is customized for every motherboard.

This mean that, if there is a major exploit on TPM 2.0 tomorrow, then, you will have to replace your entire system (its going to be too much of a cluster shipping new modules / or new motherboards for those without a slot!)

There are other successful approaches to two-factor hardware authentication that work through a standard USB drive, forever getting around this "Customized TPM platform" weakness.

https://www.yubico.com/why-yubico/how-the-yubikey-works/

if someone hacks your usb key. then you just replace it before you get owned...you'll be waiting months to get a replacement RMA motherboard with these fixes in the TPM camp!
thats the point. you enable tpm and bitlocker and the drive is locked to that system and require a key to access the drive on anything else.
sure, could happen to any potential tech.
but then people will bitch about having to buy a key and carry it and insert it etc etc etc.
but, you dont have to enable bitlocker and you can turn tpm off after install anyways...
 

defaultluser

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thats the point. you enable tpm and bitlocker and the drive is locked to that system and require a key to access the drive on anything else.
sure, could happen to any potential tech.
but then people will bitch about having to buy a key and carry it and insert it etc etc etc.
but, you dont have to enable bitlocker and you can turn tpm off after install anyways...


no, I'm not going to enable a technology the has a habit of turning itself on without asking, and then prompting you for your password. It also has a tendency to drop itself into recovery mode anytime you touch anything - Windows Updates, Firmware updates., meaning you spend more time babysitting it than you do actually running Windows!

In this age of amazing improvements in Storage Reliability, we are seriously trying to find new ways to wipe a drive in a single unintentional press of a button! And why the fuck do you think I need that level of protections on my fucking porn drive , when I'm not doing any work on my PC?

Trusted boot - fine, but leave the rest of the troublesome crypto-follies for use by businesses :rolleyes: By forcing this minimum on people who don't give-a-shit about Crypto THREE YEARS AFTER IT WAS INTRODUCED, you''re just permanently splitting your userbase!
 
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pendragon1

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no, I'm not going to enable a technology the has a habit of turning itself on without asking, and then prompting you for your password. Itr aklso has a tendancy to drop itself into recovery mpde anytime you touch anything - Windows Updates, Firmware updateas., meaning you spemnd nmore time jumping through hoops.

In this age of amazing improvements in Storage Reliability, we are seriously trying to find new ways to wipe a drive in a single unintentional press of a button! And why the fuck do you think I need that level of protections on my fucking porn drive , when I'm not doing any work on my PC?

Trusted boot - fine, but leave the rest of the troublesome crypto-follies for use by businesses :rolleyes: By forcing this minimum on people who don't give-a-shit about Crypto, you''re just permanently splitting your userbase!
it doesnt and it doesnt need a password unless you enable encryption. otherwise it does nothing. none of that affects it.

that doesnt happen and youd have to specify encrypting your porn drive.

you dont have to use, it just has to be available during install. then you can turn it off. yes its business like protection, but you dont have to use it.

have you ever even used tpm/bitlocker?!
 

defaultluser

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have you ever even used tpm/bitlocker?!


No, but I shouldn't have to worry about handling cases whee it enables itself, and then locks your drive permanently. it also has a habit of dropping you into recovery mode anytime you PATCH windows:

Apparently certain Windows Updates can break the TPM pairing with Bitlocker and require Bitlocker recovery to boot into Windows if those updates are installed.
We have recovery keys available, however, even though we would be able to provide users with the recovery keys, it would still would be a nightmare if a certain Windows Update caused us to have to do Bitlocker recover on every system using TPM unlock after a Patch Tuesday.
What types of Windows Updates, driver updates or firmware updates invoke Bitlocker recovery and is there anything that can be done to prevent Bitlocker recovery prompts from happening if we know in advance that a certain update is going to cause this issue?
If we enable TPM plus PIN, will the PIN alone unlock the system or will they then need Bitlocker recover plus PIN after one of these updates are installed?

More instances:

https://social.technet.microsoft.co...o-boot-into-safe-mode?forum=win10itprogeneral
https://social.technet.microsoft.co...-going-into-recovery?forum=win10itprosecurity
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1359375-bitlocker-keeps-asking-for-recovery-key

You seem to have not-a-care-in-the-world when it comes to these annoyances! check out what a pain it is to turn off?

https://www.m3datarecovery.com/bitl...ing-for-recovery-key-instead-of-password.html

I have offline Backups to handle random zero-days, not to handle random nuking of my encrypted drive! Much like REFS, this feature is nowhere near ready for the general public!
 

pendragon1

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No, but I shouldn't have to worry about handling cases whee it enables itself, and then locks your drive permanently. it also has a habit of dropping you into recovery mode anytime you PATCH windows:



More instances:

https://social.technet.microsoft.co...o-boot-into-safe-mode?forum=win10itprogeneral
https://social.technet.microsoft.co...-going-into-recovery?forum=win10itprosecurity
https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/1359375-bitlocker-keeps-asking-for-recovery-key

You seem to have not-a-care-in-the-world when it comes to these annoyances! check out what a pain it is to turn off?

https://www.m3datarecovery.com/bitl...ing-for-recovery-key-instead-of-password.html

I have offline Backups to handle random zero-days, not to handle random nuking of my encrypted drive! Much like REFS, this feature is nowhere near ready for the general public!
no? thought so.
those are all one off instances, not wide spread problems. every admin/office staff in my district use tpm and bitlocker and it acts nothing like you think it does. neither tpm or bitlocker magically turn themselves on.
in june i had a users laptop that was having charge issues. i removed the nvme and transplanted into another unit, fed it the bitlocker key on boot up and renewed it to the new hardware. it was back in her hands in under 20min. the only time its an issue is if you loose the key. i can even take a locked drive, connect it to my system via sata/nvme/usb, unlock it and then renew it or remove it all together. as long as you have the key there are no issues.
and they are actually called recovery keys, not passwords, its just a shorter word.
you seem to be er-mah-gerd-the-world-is-ending when it comes to something you have no experience with...
 

defaultluser

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no? thought so.
those are all one off instances, not wide spread problems. every admin/office staff in my district use tpm and bitlocker and it acts nothing like you think it does. neither tpm or bitlocker magically turn themselves on.
in june i had a users laptop that was having charge issues. i removed the nvme and transplanted into another unit, fed it the bitlocker key on boot up and renewed it to the new hardware. it was back in her hands in under 20min. the only time its an issue is if you loose the key. i can even take a locked drive, connect it to my system via sata/nvme/usb, unlock it and then renew it or remove it all together. as long as you have the key there are no issues.
and they are actually called recovery keys, not passwords, its just a shorter word.
you seem to be er-mah-gerd-the-world-is-ending when it comes to something you have no experience with...

If your only fucking solution to making Bitlocker approachable is to have a full-time staff of support people PLUS A CLOSET FULL OF HOT SPARES, then you're not understanding me at-all.

Microsoft is forcing this shit on CONSUMERS LIKE ME, who don't have this kind of time and money to spend supporting our way around it's massive list of issues!

Otherwise, if you're not going to force universal drive encryption, then what exactly is the point to this sudden "TPM-2-ONLY" bug-up-their-ass?
 
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pendragon1

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If your only fucking solution to making Bitlocker approachable is to have a full-time staff of support people PLUS A CLOSET FULL OF HOT SPARES, then you're not understanding me at-all.

Microsoft is forcing this shit on CONSUMERS LIKE ME, who don't have this kind of time and money to spend supporting our way around it's massive list of issues!

Otherwise, there is no pountn to this sudden "TPM-2-ONLY" push/.
you missed the point, its not a nightmare like you think it is. you dont seem to understand how it works and have no experience with it.
i was addressing what you claimed in your post, now youre moving posts.
we still dont know if its going to be a final requirement for diy.
tpm 1.2 works fine too.
 

jlbenedict

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so much for win 10 being the last version ever...lol win 11 now crammed with MORE spyware and telementry

Thankfully there is freedom of choice. As with every Windows release.. some will jump ship to Linux.. or stay on same Windows version..
Some drink this $hit up and welcome it with open arms
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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the choice is non existent when you have to run apps everyone else does

Apple does the same thing...
 

Jagger100

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so much for win 10 being the last version ever...lol win 11 now crammed with MORE spyware and telementry
What a bunch of bs. Someone wrote an article, all the MS defenders glommed onto it and Microsoft sat there we're suppose to believe, not correcting a pretty high profile point. I'm really getting done with this bs. My gaming has contracted immensely. I have more pc's than I really need. They are mostly surfing convenience. They don't need to be windows or mac.
 

cybereality

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If you really don't like Microsoft or Windows, then simply don't use it.

Nothing drives me nuts more than people that complain on one hand, and then continue to support the company or product they are complaining about.

Vote with your wallet, vote with your time.
 

Axman

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If you really don't like Microsoft or Windows, then simply don't use it.

That's not entirely fair since there's a whole list of things that require Windows, not limited to personal computing. Then on top of that it's the default gaming OS.

Although the Deck might shake things up for gamers.
 

cybereality

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Well things don't change by themselves. People need to take action.

For example, what percentage of Windows users are unhappy with the OS (for whatever reasons)? 10%? 20%? 50%?

What if, tonight, they all switched to Linux. You better believe Adobe would start on their Photoshop Linux port tomorrow.

It is sort of a catch 22 where customers buy it cause it's well supported, and developers support it because it is popular.
 

Eulogy

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Well things don't change by themselves. People need to take action.

For example, what percentage of Windows users are unhappy with the OS (for whatever reasons)? 10%? 20%? 50%?

What if, tonight, they all switched to Linux. You better believe Adobe would start on their Photoshop Linux port tomorrow.

It is sort of a catch 22 where customers buy it cause it's well supported, and developers support it because it is popular.
I'd bet your percentages are off by an order of magnitude or more. Don't fall into the trap of believing that these forums represent anything amounting to much of the typical user base.
 

LukeTbk

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One clue could be how hard even for free it can be to convince people to update their current version of windows (i.e. Thing how long it took for WinXP to go away, Win7 after that, etc...) if people would have been significantly unhappy one think the update would go faster.

Annoyed almost everyone, unhappy enough that it show in their actions, not much, specially that it got (with the hardware) so so much better over time.
 
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Axman

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Well things don't change by themselves. People need to take action.

Maybe for personal use but not for work; those decisions aren't usually made by the individual.

One clue could be how hard even for free it can be to convince people to update their current version of windows

Everyone loves to bash Vista but look at how poorly Windows 8 did, and how fast MS was to respond with 10.
 
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grifter_66

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My boot drive failed yesterday so I've got to get a new drive and reinstall the OS. I'm thinking about just installing 11 from scratch instead of having to upgrade from 10 in a month or two. Is there a way to do this yet or do you have to upgrade from 10 right now?
 

GSDragoon

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My boot drive failed yesterday so I've got to get a new drive and reinstall the OS. I'm thinking about just installing 11 from scratch instead of having to upgrade from 10 in a month or two. Is there a way to do this yet or do you have to upgrade from 10 right now?
You can get an image to perform a clean installation here: https://uupdump.net/
 

Eulogy

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My boot drive failed yesterday so I've got to get a new drive and reinstall the OS. I'm thinking about just installing 11 from scratch instead of having to upgrade from 10 in a month or two. Is there a way to do this yet or do you have to upgrade from 10 right now?
11 is still Fast Ring beta. There isn't any guarantee that there will be a path to GA/released 11 from that. You can install 11 directly now, just keep that in mind.
 

cybereality

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11 is still Fast Ring beta. There isn't any guarantee that there will be a path to GA/released 11 from that. You can install 11 directly now, just keep that in mind.
Yeah, this has turned me off to trying it. I don't want to waste time setting up a machine I have to reinstall the OS in a few months anyway. I'll wait for the real release.
 

Eulogy

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Yeah, this has turned me off to trying it. I don't want to waste time setting up a machine I have to reinstall the OS in a few months anyway. I'll wait for the real release.
Sometimes going from beta -> GA version is just a massive "update" that gets done, too. I just don't know how it'll go this time.
 

GSDragoon

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LukeTbk

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Guess they stopped caring about anti-trust.
There is a giant reversal in both politics and the public about it I feel.

in 2021 pushing Broadcast syndication law into the streamers or steam like platform would sound alien to the young people I imagine (in the 70s there was law that prevented networks to program hours in prime time and forced them to create new company for their syndication branch even).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Time_Access_Rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Interest_and_Syndication_Rules

Imagine politicians trying to do that with Netflix, Disney+ or steam front page..... people that were not adults in the 70s would find that to be some extreme socialism strangeness....

The fact Microsoft had to split is OS and Office branch or the fact that Internet Explorer came already installed on computer was an big issue at some point in time (could you imagine now creating a fuss about Safari or Chrome coming pre-installed on Apple or Google device... without an extra charge)

We went quickly enough from film studio that could not own movies theaters to them owning streaming platform that play almost exclusively their own content. We live in a world were the audience and the politicians in some part, became fans of corporation and are happy to see them win's, to have more control to deliver a more integrated and pleasing experience even at the cost of a closed to competition vertical integration going on.

I think there is technological reason for that and if something like this past it will be with a Google can defend itself mentality (i.e. if Firefox can achieved to become the default browser without any issue for the user even if they miss the first time question, Google will figure it out) versus how smaller Netscape was to Microsoft at the time and if they do not they are powerful enough to sue Microsoft themselves about it (like Epyc vs Apple and the giant list of case going on).
 

ManofGod

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There is a giant reversal in both politics and the public about it I feel.

in 2021 pushing Broadcast syndication law into the streamers or steam like platform would sound alien to the young people I imagine (in the 70s there was law that prevented networks to program hours in prime time and forced them to create new company for their syndication branch even).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Time_Access_Rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Interest_and_Syndication_Rules

Imagine politicians trying to do that with Netflix, Disney+ or steam front page..... people that were not adults in the 70s would find that to be some extreme socialism strangeness....

The fact Microsoft had to split is OS and Office branch or the fact that Internet Explorer came already installed on computer was an big issue at some point in time (could you imagine now creating a fuss about Safari or Chrome coming pre-installed on Apple or Google device... without an extra charge)

We went quickly enough from film studio that could not own movies theaters to them owning streaming platform that play almost exclusively their own content. We live in a world were the audience and the politicians in some part, became fans of corporation and are happy to see them win's, to have more control to deliver a more integrated and pleasing experience even at the cost of a closed to competition vertical integration going on.

I think there is technological reason for that and if something like this past it will be with a Google can defend itself mentality (i.e. if Firefox can achieved to become the default browser without any issue for the user even if they miss the first time question, Google will figure it out) versus how smaller Netscape was to Microsoft at the time and if they do not they are powerful enough to sue Microsoft themselves about it (like Epyc vs Apple and the giant list of case going on).

This is one of the biggest reasons I will not use Windows as my daily driver, at home, anymore. If I could walk away on my phone, I would but at the moment, all I can do is minimize the impact. I think I will stick with Windows 10 until such time as there are proper debloat scripts and Windows 11 is stable and complete.
 

Wizard220

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TPM and Secure Boot should be optional. If you are using it as a "home" device then it should be a choice. If on a "enterprise" system then make it required.

MS by making both required will render a boat load of systems obsolete. Sorry but MS is forcing this on everyone inref to Windows 11. If you want Windows 11 then pony up the dollars to buy all new shit.
 
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pendragon1

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TPM and Secure Boot should be optional. If you are using it as a "home" device then it should be a choice. If on a "interprise" system then make it required.

MS by making both required will render a boat load of systems obsolete. Sorry but MS is forcing this on everyone inref to Windows 11. If you want Windows 11 then pony up the dollars to buy all new shit.
secure boot is not required and ms is still assessing the diy tpm requirements.
 

sadsteve

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I'd bet your percentages are off by an order of magnitude or more. Don't fall into the trap of believing that these forums represent anything amounting to much of the typical user base.
Heh, my wife has no clue as to what a forum is!!
 

DWolvin

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I threw it on my game rig, it's not bad. Wakes from sleep very quickly. The centered taskbar icons can be pushed to the left if you want but it's no harder to get used to than a speedometer in the center of the dash...
 

DukenukemX

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ehxu4tbay8j71.jpg
 

DWolvin

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Not saying that at all, but it is nice that there is a feedback hub so you can tell them things like wanting to be able to put the taskbar where you'd like (I'm a right or left side weirdo myself...). I'd love Vulcan to hit the point that I can run *ux as my game rig, but it's not there yet. And thinks for the graphic, I'd missed Garuda and Zorin (reading up now)!
 

DWolvin

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Just stumbled on that video and came to post it also. :ROFLMAO: Agree that the spacing is one of those things I love, even thought I never really picked up on it before (big monitor FTW).
 
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DWolvin

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I like Linus well enough, but c'mon... There was less substance than usual even for him.
 
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