Will nvidia EVER fix the shimmering problem?

Slade

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tested
need for speed underground
star wars battlefront

NFSU very slight shimmering
Battlefront none

Enabling 2x AA or better fixes it.

So far tested

Doom3 None 16x12 High Quality Max Everything else
SWKOTOR Little Fixed Max with 4xAA in game
NFSU Little Fixed with AA Max Quality 12x10 2xQAA in drivers
SWB None

P42.6@3.3
IC7-G
1GB DDR
BFG Geforce 6800 GT 410/1.08
Dell P991 Monitor Using Standard VGA port

High quality set in drivers
AF set to application preference
AA set to application preference
Optimizations are off

From my perspective this is looking like floating point precision aliasing. The scene is rendered with so much detail when calculated, but when drawn to screen aliasing is just rearing its ugly head.
 

Chris_B

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brent_anderson said:
It drives me crazy in flight sims, no modern video card has looked as good as my "retired" Voodoo5500 when hunting for ground targets from 15,000 feet :) .


Yup, id go as far as to say that 6xfsaa on the 6000 would probably be visibly better than any gaming card today for antialiasing at least.
 

skiddy

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I'm getting major shimmering on white jersies on Madden 2005 with my 6800ultra and the WHQL 66.81's. Running it at 2xaa/8xaf on 1280x1024.
 

Impulse

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Apple740 said:
Ok, here is the same BF1942 vid, but now rendered on my X800XT. (Divx 5.2.1 codec, 800x600 res with 4xAA/16xAF)

http://www.henno.dutchweb.nl/bf1942atix800xt.avi

Btw, I've noticed something funny. In the Nv6800 vid you don't walk but "skate". In my X800 vid your view/head is really going up/down when you walk. (I don't know if this is due to another BF1942 version, i use 1.0)

It's slightly noticeable there but less so than on the previously posted video, much less imo, particulary in the section of the ground closer to the gunsights as you walk towards it.
 

MFZ

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Apple740 said:
Ok, here is the same BF1942 vid, but now rendered on my X800XT. (Divx 5.2.1 codec, 800x600 res with 4xAA/16xAF)

http://www.henno.dutchweb.nl/bf1942atix800xt.avi


Btw, I've noticed something funny. In the Nv6800 vid you don't walk but "skate". In my X800 vid your view/head is really going up/down when you walk. (I don't know if this is due to another BF1942 version, i use 1.0)

I do not see any shimmering in this video aside from the alpha textures in the barbed wire but that's due to the lack of supersampling. BTW for those of you running ATi/nVidia cards, turn your texture quality down to 80% in game. The aggressive mip map bias in BF1942 can cause what looks like shimmering at 100%.

Take a look here: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16233&sid=848f995195071911799209f95d99ef8a

Here's a quick movie I just made with my X800XT PE using 80% (mip map bias 0), 4xAA/16xAF performance using Omega 2590 drivers:

DCX800XTPE.avi

Here's the videos from nVidia cards for comparison/reference:

Video 1

Video 2 with Trilinear and opts off and LOD 0


BTW guys if you're going to make FRAPS videos, you should agree to use the same settings and compression so that the quality doesn't differ so much. I found that XVID at 5000 kbps to be a pretty good medium. I'm using a freeware program called VirtualDub to convert the FRAPS vids.
 

hordaktheman

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For those interested, I get that same *exact* shimmering effect in bf1942 on my 9500pro if, and only if, I have AF enabled. It does not, however, happen in bf:Vietnam (nor any other game for that matter). I also remember seeing that same exact effect on my old Geforce ddr when I lowered the lod bias to a less than zero (about -1 or so).

NVidia better fix this though... I have my eyes on a 6600gt when the agp version arrives.

Edit: I *could* be mistaken, but the shimmering in bf1942 *may* only have applied if I had AF set to "performance" rather than "quality". I don't have it anymore so I can't check, but maybe someone else can?
 

Apple740

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BTW guys if you're going to make FRAPS videos, you should agree to use the same settings and compression so that the quality doesn't differ so much. I found that DIVX at 3000 kbps to be a pretty good medium. I'm using a freeware program called VirtualDub to convert the FRAPS vids.

After i posted my Ati movie i found a codec-viewer tool, and found out that the Nv vid is coded
with Xvid MPEG4. So i redid the job and used Xvid too in stead of Divx.. Btw, Xvid looks much better than Divx imho, at the same file size.
 

DaveBaumann

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Cali3350 said:
Shimmering in any 68xx series card. Nvnews is flooded with problems, and even Dave at Beyond3d has mentioned that in a upcomming review Painkiller is almost un-reviewable due to the bug.

We don't use Painkiller in reviews, and I've not mentioned this before.
 

MFZ

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Apple740 said:
After i posted my Ati movie i found a codec-viewer tool, and found out that the Nv vid is coded
with Xvid MPEG4. So i redid the job and used Xvid too in stead of Divx.. Btw, Xvid looks much better than Divx imho, at the same file size.

Yep I switched over to Xvid as well, 5000 kbps and almost the same file size as DiVX at a lower quality setting. :)
 

aldamon

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sKiDmArK said:
I'm getting major shimmering on white jersies on Madden 2005 with my 6800ultra and the WHQL 66.81's. Running it at 2xaa/8xaf on 1280x1024.

I saw that too before I uninstalled the POS. :cool:
 

Cali3350

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DaveBaumann said:
We don't use Painkiller in reviews, and I've not mentioned this before.

? I coulda sworn i read that at beyond3d. Im not joking ?

:(

well, i didnt mean to put words in your mouth, i can promise you that.
 

Cali3350

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Some now think its simply the games setting LOD values to low and the drivers not correcting it. If thats all Nvidia should have no trouble fixing this, so why havent they?
:mad:
 

Impulse

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Maybe they think it's the game dev's responsibility... Kinda counter-intuitive for them to limit how low a game can set lod on a case by case basis imo (though it's a solution).
 

raz-0

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Cali3350 said:
Some now think its simply the games setting LOD values to low and the drivers not correcting it. If thats all Nvidia should have no trouble fixing this, so why havent they?
:mad:

maybe because it is less of a PR nightmare to have developers fix their LOD values than to listen to legions of people bitch about something being an optimization or a cheat.
 

provoko

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So I've played through lots of games and demos and this is what I get:

In counter strike I get tons of shimmering on quality, but shimmering is completely gone on high quality. In america's army I get very little shimmering on either qaulity. On farcry there is no shimmering at all on any quality. In LOMAC I notice shimmering, but on high quality it's very little.

So far I don't get as much shimmering as people are complaining about, but I do get it. So Whats the problem, is it a bug, nvidia really hasn't said anything about it? And it seems shimmering is in ATI cards too, I read that post above where the guy got really bad shimmering on his 9800 pro.
 

tranCendenZ

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MFZ said:
It doesn't exist on the ATi cards, period. The only thing remotely close to shimmer on an ATi card is when there are alpha textures on the screen. Like I said, aside from that, there is not one iota of proof to support there is a hint of shimmering with ATi cards.

Isn't that the truth, now he's grasping at straws trying to make it an ATi issue as well. :rolleyes:

:)

Netrat33 @ Hardocp using ATI x800xt said:
A64 Shimmer x800xt(me)

Farcry everything pimped out
shimmering. When you start moving these little areas I drew out...start moving vibrating

Sc0rched @ Hardocp ysing ATI 9800XT said:
This is somewhat related I assume... I notice "shimmering" such as that in the screenshot of farcry, little white dotted lines where skins seperate that I have noticed mainly in CS and CS:S. However, I am NOT using an nVidia card. I am using a 9800XT with stock clocks.

hordaktheman @ Hardocp using ATI 9500PRO said:
For those interested, I get that same *exact* shimmering effect in bf1942 on my 9500pro if, and only if, I have AF enabled.

Arioch @ nvnews using ATI x800xtpe said:
This problem also exists to some extent on a X800 card as I had a X800XT PE for two months. The high quality setting with optimizations off seem to eliminate most of this problem on my 6800 Ultra.

Malificar @ nvnews using ATI x800pro said:
I had a X800Pro. ATi's optimized AF is more offensive in this department than nVidia's set to high quality no optimizations.

etc
 

MFZ

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tranCendenZ said:


And yet not a single shred of proof aside from Netrats supposed shimmer problem which looks more like pixel popping than anything else. I've even posted a video comparison between the two cards and you can clearly see the 6800's shimmer.
 

Brent_Justice

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Ok, I have read this entire thread now, as well as the one at NVNews, next up I will read the one at B3D.

I'd like to point out that I did mention this "shimmering" problem which I noticed on the X700XT actually, here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDY= Under the Image Quality section.

This definitely warrants investigation on both NVIDIA and ATI hardware.

I will be looking specifically for this problem on future reviews, and point it out if its very noticeable.

Also regarding the dots/lines that are appearing at the seams of textures or other parts of the texture I have noticed this one too, a lot, I first pointed it out here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY0LDEw and then here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDQ= in DOOM 3, FarCry and City of Heroes. I have also been playing CS:S a lot lately and have noticed it badly in that game. ATI is aware of and looking into that dot/line problem.
 

R1ckCa1n

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I must say I did not have shimmering problems with my X800, like on my 6800GT.
 

tranCendenZ

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MFZ said:
And yet not a single shred of proof aside from Netrats supposed shimmer problem which looks more like pixel popping than anything else. I've even posted a video comparison between the two cards and you can clearly see the 6800's shimmer.

And you haven't posted a single shred of proof that the shimmering issue some are having isn't a system-specific or configuration issue as opposed to a general videocard problem, your point? If you like I could repost some old farcry videos showing shimmering on the x800 from ages ago.
 

MFZ

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Brent_Justice said:
Ok, I have read this entire thread now, as well as the one at NVNews, next up I will read the one at B3D.

I'd like to point out that I did mention this "shimmering" problem which I noticed on the X700XT actually, here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDY= Under the Image Quality section.

This definitely warrants investigation on both NVIDIA and ATI hardware.

I will be looking specifically for this problem on future reviews, and point it out if its very noticeable.

Also regarding the dots/lines that are appearing at the seams of textures or other parts of the texture I have noticed this one too, a lot, I first pointed it out here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY0LDEw and then here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDQ= in DOOM 3, FarCry and City of Heroes. I have also been playing CS:S a lot lately and have noticed it badly in that game. ATI is aware of and looking into that dot/line problem.


You only got that issue with the X700XT though and I'm assuming not any of the X800 cards since you didn't mention it. Did it only happen with the drivers using AI? I've never seen any of those problems cited in your review of the X700XT though I do not use the 4.10/AI drivers.

Its about time this problem got attention, if these are a result of the companies using aggressive settings then there should be a line drawn to when it becomes unacceptable and you reviewers should definitely be looking for this kind of stuff.
 

MFZ

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tranCendenZ said:
And you haven't posted a single shred of proof that the shimmering issue some are having isn't a system-specific or configuration issue as opposed to a general videocard problem, your point? If you like I could repost some old farcry videos showing shimmering on the x800 from ages ago.

Just look at the large number of nVidia users complaining of shimmering vs the few ATi guys who may or may not even know what shimmering is. Like I said, I haven't seen any hard proof of shimmering on an ATi card yet. If it exists feel free to post a nice quality video and show me, I'm not biased enough like some people to put a veil over my eyes and say it doesn't exist if I see proof. Hell if it is found I'd work to get a list of games showing it and then find a way to present it to ATi so it can be fixed. You on the other hand spent most of your time in this thread denying it and blaming peoples systems.
 

tranCendenZ

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MFZ said:
Just look at the large number of nVidia users complaining of shimmering vs the few ATi guys who may or may not even know what shimmering is. Like I said, I haven't seen any hard proof of shimmering on an ATi card yet. If it exists feel free to post a nice quality video and show me, I'm not biased enough like some people to put a veil over my eyes and say it doesn't exist if I see proof.

What exactly do you expect with a thread called "Will nvidia ever fix the shimmering problem?" You expect a bunch of ATI users to look for it and post in the thread with that thread title?
 

R1ckCa1n

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tranCendenZ said:
What exactly do you expect with a thread called "Will nvidia ever fix the shimmering problem?" You expect a bunch of ATI users to look for it and post in the thread with that thread title?
I should start a "why can't ATI produce a 16 pipe card?" thread .:)
 

MFZ

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R1ckCa1n said:
I should start a "why can't ATI produce a 16 pipe card?" thread .:)

Yeah I guess the XT PE in my system or the previous one I owned were made of cardboard. :rolleyes:
 

MFZ

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tranCendenZ said:
What exactly do you expect with a thread called "Will nvidia ever fix the shimmering problem?" You expect a bunch of ATI users to look for it and post in the thread with that thread title?

Who cares what I expect? You being such an nVidia loyalist should have helped them out rather than criticizing them and saying its their systems. Hell most of the ATi owners who bothered to post in here were far more constructive and helpful than you.
 

tranCendenZ

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MFZ said:
. Like I said, I haven't seen any hard proof of shimmering on an ATi card yet. If it exists feel free to post a nice quality video and show me, I'm not biased enough like some people to put a veil over my eyes and say it doesn't exist if I see proof. Hell if it is found I'd work to get a list of games showing it and then find a way to present it to ATi so it can be fixed. You on the other hand spent most of your time in this thread denying it and blaming peoples systems.

Pay attention to the stone wall on the left:

FarCry 9700PRO (some minor shimmering on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

FarCry x800PRO (lots more shimmering/dot crawl on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

Here is a saved game from that point in the game (use flashlight):
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FC_ShimmerSave.zip

Click here for a gamma boosted low res version if to get an idea what you are looking for.
 

MFZ

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tranCendenZ said:
Pay attention to the stone wall on the left:

FarCry 9700PRO (some minor shimmering on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

FarCry x800PRO (lots more shimmering/dot crawl on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

Here is a saved game from that point in the game:
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FC_ShimmerSave.zip

Click here for a gamma boosted low res version if to get an idea what you are looking for.

I'll run the save file on my system in a second and report back if I have it. I'll post a video regardless.

EDIT: As promised here is the video -

FCX800XTPE.avi

Settings used were everything high quality, 1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF trilinear through the in-game setings. Driver I have is the Omega 2590. I'll post a higher gamma one in a few minutes as well.

EDIT 2: This one is with the flashlight. There is a very slight bit of what seems to be shimmering on the wall as a result of turning on the flashlight. Keep in mind this does not occur when the light is off or if you're walking around outside -

FCLightX800XTPE.avi
 

Chris_B

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tranCendenZ said:
What exactly do you expect with a thread called "Will nvidia ever fix the shimmering problem?" You expect a bunch of ATI users to look for it and post in the thread with that thread title?


Well usually people will start drawing comparrisons so id say yes.
 

Netrat33

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Chris_B said:
Well usually people will start drawing comparrisons so id say yes.


Well..one thing it is a big thread..and who knows how many people are really interested in a long thread ;) by now

Some people have posted here with Ati card problems (like me trying to find answers) so i look towards nvidia answers (lowering LOD levels works SOMETIMES...but i really rather not have a blurry image)

MFZ...you gotta let it go, it's just like how some nvidia owners don't have shimmering while others do...some ati cards have problems and other don't it seems. I've even witnessed it on a 9800pro on a completely different machine. And if you want to call shimmering "pixel popping" "texture crawling" "Case of the Flickies" It's a problem and it happens in a crap load of games for me (most are tolerable)

Brent (if you ever come back to this thread :)...THANK YOU so much for letting us know that both companies are aware and looking into the problem. That was my only concern (and yes I am one who personally emailed Ati about it) But it's nice to hear some feedback about the issue.
 

Cali3350

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tranCendenZ said:
Pay attention to the stone wall on the left:

FarCry 9700PRO (some minor shimmering on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

FarCry x800PRO (lots more shimmering/dot crawl on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

Here is a saved game from that point in the game:
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FC_ShimmerSave.zip

Click here for a gamma boosted low res version if to get an idea what you are looking for.
Im not sure thats the same thing.

On Nvidia cards sometimes the area with texutre shimmering will also appear as if it doesnt have AA applied to it when the rest of the screens will. Some GTA:VC shots at NVnews show it rather nicely. Thats something ive personally not experienced, but others apparently have.
 

Impulse

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The plot thickens... thanks for looking into it Brent! :cool:

Could you guys leave the fanaticsm out of the thread? I know discussing whether it's also present on ATI cards could help but the snide remarks and jabs sure don't, so grow up and help out or get out.
 

Cali3350

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Brent_Justice said:
Ok, I have read this entire thread now, as well as the one at NVNews, next up I will read the one at B3D.

I'd like to point out that I did mention this "shimmering" problem which I noticed on the X700XT actually, here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDY= Under the Image Quality section.

This definitely warrants investigation on both NVIDIA and ATI hardware.

I will be looking specifically for this problem on future reviews, and point it out if its very noticeable.

Also regarding the dots/lines that are appearing at the seams of textures or other parts of the texture I have noticed this one too, a lot, I first pointed it out here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY0LDEw and then here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDQ= in DOOM 3, FarCry and City of Heroes. I have also been playing CS:S a lot lately and have noticed it badly in that game. ATI is aware of and looking into that dot/line problem.
Thank You! I really do appreciate that. Thats why i love this site, you guys tell us what you know :)
 

HeavenX

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Does anyone know what mip map dithering is? because in the riva tuner this option can not be enabled for 6800 cards. Im just curious...
 

tranCendenZ

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MFZ said:
I'll run the save file on my system in a second and report back if I have it. I'll post a video regardless.

EDIT: As promised here is the video -

FCX800XTPE.avi

Settings used were everything high quality, 1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF trilinear through the in-game setings. Driver I have is the Omega 2590. I'll post a higher gamma one in a few minutes as well.

Heh, forgot to tell you, you need to turn on the flashlight
 

HeavenX

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Hey cali I might of found something interesting. If you have riva tuner go to the section where it saiz Mipmapping. On the bottom on that page you will see this "Filtering mode for automatic mipmaps" that section is locked with bilinear and can not be changed to anything else. Check it out and let me know if you smell something there... :D
 

Apple740

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tranCendenZ said:
Pay attention to the stone wall on the left:

FarCry 9700PRO (some minor shimmering on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

FarCry x800PRO (lots more shimmering/dot crawl on wall)
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

Here is a saved game from that point in the game (use flashlight):
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FC_ShimmerSave.zip

Click here for a gamma boosted low res version if to get an idea what you are looking for.


Trancendenz, i saw these movies 6 months ago, just after the release of X800. It would be nice if you post something more up to date. :D
I've checked your savepoint myself, and what MFZ already showed us on his X800, the issue is mostly solved.

Brent_Justice said:
I'd like to point out that I did mention this "shimmering" problem which I noticed on the X700XT actually, here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2LDY= Under the Image Quality section.

This definitely warrants investigation on both NVIDIA and ATI hardware.

In your X700XT review you've stated that this shimmering was due to Ati's A.I., turning off AI removed it. Maybe we can simply state that Nv uses to much "hidden optimizations" in their drivers, which you can't turn off, which causes the shimmering.
 
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