Will never buy an Intel CPU again.

robbiekhan

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505
AMD doesn't sold me something I can't buy.
Neither did Intel. YOU chose a DDR5 board to go with ADL instead of a DDR4 board even though everything online pointed to supply issues with DDR5 and the minimal performance difference between 4 and 5 currently which will stay that way for at least a year or two.

This is a problem that is on you alone, not anyone else.
 

travm

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Neither did Intel. YOU chose a DDR5 board to go with ADL instead of a DDR4 board even though everything online pointed to supply issues with DDR5 and the minimal performance difference between 4 and 5 currently which will stay that way for at least a year or two.

This is a problem that is on you alone, not anyone else.
learning shit the hard way sucks doesn't it. :D Unfortunately the new wave is to blame other people for your own stupidity. Climate change wont end the human race... This may.
 

AzixTGO

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134
That doesn't mean they can make any of those parts ~right now~. Their fabs aren't set up for that, they don't have the tape-out designs, they don't own the licenses for the designs, and they don't have a line free to do it (currently). Who knew that a PMIC would be a limited run item? I guarantee you that if the fabs that make it knew it would be in this high demand, they'd have been trying to make more of the things - that's pure revenue in their pocket - but EVERYTHING semiconductor wise is constrained right now. I'm speccing enterprise servers with 180+ day lead times! Things folks need next SEPTEMBER they're ordering right now, because that's the only way to guarantee delivery. And as they do so, the lead times increase, and more people order ahead of time - all of that kit is feeding off the same fabs. Even if they reached out to the designers of those parts and got a license, getting the tape-out design and the fab set up for making it is a 6 month + process, and unless the process and design shares a lot with other things, requires that it be dedicated to that product

Heck, certain NETWORK cards are constrained out over 200 days at this point. A bloody network card!

Fab machines aren't simple. Last I saw, the current 7nm systems come in SIX full size containers and take about 6 months to get set up - and that's assuming you have a place to even put the thing, and the requisite supplies to feed it.
I don't mean on short notice. they could have spent months securing their launch.

Things like DDR5 and SSDs should be on the easier side to supply. A network card will have more components to source. DDr5 is literally DDR5 chips and a chip or two. The number of components that could cause a shortage is veeery limited. If you were trying at all to secure supply of something like that, its not hard.

And since it seems like a single chip is the issue, I expect the supply will explode at some point. The chips aren't made on the latest process. I think the samsung one is a 90nm chip.
 

Motley

2[H]4U
Joined
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Messages
2,497
Geeezus this guy is complaining about getting the bleading edge products. You;ll be lucky if everything runs correctly, let alone being able to purchase all the new stuff.

We got multiple problems right now in the tech industry. Covid affecting supply chains, the fucking scalpers.
 

Nasgul

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Jun 11, 2005
Messages
54
4K euros? That's like what? 10K Mexican Pesos and about 2,000 Canadian Pesos or probably equal to $900 Australian Pesos, or close to 2 million Vietnamese Dongs, but most important, that's about $500 U.S. Dollars, yeah! Sounds like a lot of Rupees to me.
 

Nenu

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Messages
20,187
4K euros? That's like what? 10K Mexican Pesos and about 2,000 Canadian Pesos or probably equal to $900 Australian Pesos, or close to 2 million Vietnamese Dongs, but most important, that's about $500 U.S. Dollars, yeah! Sounds like a lot of Rupees to me.
x10 at least.
 
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lopoetve

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I don't mean on short notice. they could have spent months securing their launch.
Why? That's not their product. They're going to sell every chip they make regardless - from a business perspective, that makes no sense.
There also was no easy way to predict that there would be this bad a shortage of the part.
Things like DDR5 and SSDs should be on the easier side to supply. A network card will have more components to source. DDr5 is literally DDR5 chips and a chip or two. The number of components that could cause a shortage is veeery limited. If you were trying at all to secure supply of something like that, its not hard.
Not... quite. No. Network cards are all standard parts too - even the controller chips are older lines too. It's a PHY, a controller chip, and a pile of caps/resistors/PCIE connectors. When we say EVERYTHING is short, we mean everything. I worked for a major OEM until 2 months ago, and now work for a major partner - there is ~nothing~ that is not in short supply right now. Hell, they can't even get substrate!
And since it seems like a single chip is the issue, I expect the supply will explode at some point. The chips aren't made on the latest process. I think the samsung one is a 90nm chip.
Samsung has one 90nm fab plant. One (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants). It's an ancient process - why would intel (or anyone) invest in more of those for a single part, where margins are literally razor thin? Same reason Intel and everyone is pushing the car manufacturers to get off of the 200nm parts they use - why make more plants for razor thin parts? The demand will eventually normalize - can't "unmake" a plant that is running an ancient process.
 

thecold

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,217
That doesn't mean they can make any of those parts ~right now~. Their fabs aren't set up for that, they don't have the tape-out designs, they don't own the licenses for the designs, and they don't have a line free to do it (currently). Who knew that a PMIC would be a limited run item? I guarantee you that if the fabs that make it knew it would be in this high demand, they'd have been trying to make more of the things - that's pure revenue in their pocket - but EVERYTHING semiconductor wise is constrained right now. I'm speccing enterprise servers with 180+ day lead times! Things folks need next SEPTEMBER they're ordering right now, because that's the only way to guarantee delivery. And as they do so, the lead times increase, and more people order ahead of time - all of that kit is feeding off the same fabs. Even if they reached out to the designers of those parts and got a license, getting the tape-out design and the fab set up for making it is a 6 month + process, and unless the process and design shares a lot with other things, requires that it be dedicated to that product

Heck, certain NETWORK cards are constrained out over 200 days at this point. A bloody network card!

Fab machines aren't simple. Last I saw, the current 7nm systems come in SIX full size containers and take about 6 months to get set up - and that's assuming you have a place to even put the thing, and the requisite supplies to feed it.
This reminds me, I was out of internet this summer for 20 days because centurylink couldn't get parts for the repair.

They were tight lipped and a pain in the ass about it as well. I had to go through billing, then service escalations. I was pretty pissed. They would show the estimated repair date, the next day or same day. They did this for like 18 of the 20 days...
 
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Dan_D

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4K euros? That's like what? 10K Mexican Pesos and about 2,000 Canadian Pesos or probably equal to $900 Australian Pesos, or close to 2 million Vietnamese Dongs, but most important, that's about $500 U.S. Dollars, yeah! Sounds like a lot of Rupees to me.
1638983568608.png


I'll just leave this here.
 

Dan_D

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I think that's more than I spent on my 10980XE system OR my 3960X system...
I doubt that. The Core i9 10980XE was $999 by itself at MSRP. The Threadripper 3960X was around $1,799.99 if i recall correctly. If you were to total up everything, including the case, PSU, etc. I bet you'd find you broke $4,000 easily unless you run low end GPU's with them.
 

Krenum

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I have 4K euros of components getting the dust because there is no DDR5 in the entire europe.

My "refund window" is expired and I can't even ask for a refund.

Shops here says that there will be no DDR5 for months, a lot of months.
I have spent a lot of money for the components and I will not be able to use them for months.

Intel will never see my money again.
This is the last time I buy an Intel CPU, no matter how good they will be in the future.
What did you expect buying New, highly sought after tech amid a global chip shortage?
 

lopoetve

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I doubt that. The Core i9 10980XE was $999 by itself at MSRP. The Threadripper 3960X was around $1,799.99 if i recall correctly. If you were to total up everything, including the case, PSU, etc. I bet you'd find you broke $4,000 easily unless you run low end GPU's with them.
3960X was $1399 MSRP, I got it for $1250 with MC bundle. Zenith II Extreme Alpha was 750 after discount (MC Bundle again). 128G of DDR4 was $400. The 6800XT I got before things went nuts for $950 (SO lucky on this one - Asus Strix LC). PSU was a ROG Thor 1200 - $300 (also before things went nuts). Case was $250 (O11 Dynamic XL). Fans were another $100. Cooler was $100 (Noctua TR version of the big'un). $150 for the NVMe drive, times two.

$4500. Whew! Just under! If it hadn't been for microcenter, it would have cost me the same - but damn. That seems like a LOT for an Alder Lake non-HEDT box.

As for the 10980 - MC bundles again. I paid $700 for that sucker! :D I put it all in a 5000D though so lord knows what that entire thing cost. Motherboard was 500, RAM was 450 (no more sales :()... GPU was a pre-stupid 3080... but that case was $500+ fans. And that's a LOT of fans.
 

evhvis

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Messages
362
Again, that doesn't really make any sense. How does a completely different and budget oriented configuration that doesn't have a 12th generation Intel CPU at all prove he's trolling? I'm in the U.S. and the cost of a 12900K and ASUS Maximus Z690 Extreme is pretty close to $2,000 right there. I've got an RTX 3090, Lian-Li O11-Dynamic XL case, and the new build will also have new radiators, distribution plate, fittings, etc. I don't have RAM yet and I'm pretty sure I'm easily past $4,000 US in parts so far.

Depending on the board and the final system configuration, 4,000 euros doesn't seem like it's all that hard to reach.
Yeah, it used to take an effort to get to 4k euros but last few years GPUs, CPUs, MBs and drives have skyrocketed in price (even before corona hit). Nowdays it is just about doing multiple orders of 500 here and 1200 there. Do it a few times and your build price just skyrockets :( Bought most of the stuff on my 1 year old build at or below MSRP, but didn't realize the total cost until I added it up. Probably was bought on 12 different orders each ranging between 200 and 1400 euros each which made it not feel that expensive.
 

Dan_D

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I put it all in a 5000D though so lord knows what that entire thing cost. Motherboard was 500, RAM was 450 (no more sales :()... GPU was a pre-stupid 3080... but that case was $500+ fans. And that's a LOT of fans.
That's kind of my point. If you add up all the fans, cables, extensions, brackets, or whatever other incidentals are needed the price gets out of control rather quickly. A lot of us don't buy everything all at once, so we don't generally think about what we have invested in these things.

Yeah, it used to take an effort to get to 4k euros but last few years GPUs, CPUs, MBs and drives have skyrocketed in price (even before corona hit). Nowdays it is just about doing multiple orders of 500 here and 1200 there. Do it a few times and your build price just skyrockets :( Bought most of the stuff on my 1 year old build at or below MSRP, but didn't realize the total cost until I added it up. Probably was bought on 12 different orders each ranging between 200 and 1400 euros each which made it not feel that expensive.
Computers costing well more than $3,000 aren't new. In fact, high end machines always have. Most of my machines have been well in excess of $5,000 for years now. Granted, I usually built HEDT rigs which meant $500 motherboards, $1,000 CPU's, and twice as many memory modules for quad-channel. That being said, your correct. The mainstream segment has become far more expensive in recent years on the high end. The main difference is where we spend the money. Things that used to be cheap are rather expensive now and somethings that used to cost a fortune simply don't anymore. Motherboards used to be $100, but you used to need a modem, network card, sound card, and even a drive controller. Now, it's all rolled into one.
 

noko

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Seems like a severe lack of communication between Intel, motherboard makers and memory makers for the launch. Why would the motherboard makers make boards, use up hard to find parts on boards where the users will not be able to put to use? Causing the boards over time sitting on the shelf, being returned etc.? Anyways this Intel launch is not going that well overall. E-cores are worthless or just plain weak for gamers, incompatibilities with games due to E-Cores and updates needed for games (expected with new core design), motherboard prices are much higher, the top end boards are available but not all parts can be obtain to get system working if going all new..

Now personally if I found myself in OP situation -> Buy decent but cost effective DDR4 motherboard and put my parts to use. Maybe even sell the DDR 5 motherboard. Seeing available scalped DDR5 prices -> nope -> DDR4 motherboard purchase route.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l2632&_nkw=ddr5+ram&_sacat=175673

lol, on the bidding war with the DDR 5 ram.
 

Dan_D

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Seems like a severe lack of communication between Intel, motherboard makers and memory makers for the launch. Why would the motherboard makers make boards, use up hard to find parts on boards where the users will not be able to put to use? Causing the boards over time sitting on the shelf, being returned etc.? Anyways this Intel launch is not going that well overall. E-cores are worthless or just plain weak for gamers, incompatibilities with games due to E-Cores and updates needed for games (expected with new core design), motherboard prices are much higher, the top end boards are available but not all parts can be obtain to get system working if going all new..

Now personally if I found myself in OP situation -> Buy decent but cost effective DDR4 motherboard and put my parts to use. Maybe even sell the DDR 5 motherboard. Seeing available scalped DDR5 prices -> nope -> DDR4 motherboard purchase route.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l2632&_nkw=ddr5+ram&_sacat=175673

lol, on the bidding war with the DDR 5 ram.
There are a lot of misconceptions in this post.

You do not understand how these launches work or how the industry works in regard to motherboards, Intel and memory companies. Intel exerts a great deal of pull with motherboard manufacturers and far less with memory manufacturers. The difference? Intel makes components used on motherboards. It makes chipsets, PHY's and other components in some cases. It makes nothing that goes on the memory modules. There is a relationship there, but it isn't the same as what you see on the motherboard side. The VRD specifications are also from Intel and these companies have to follow Intel's guidelines for CPU compatibility, chipset implementation, and even the BIOS. Essentially, the two work hand in hand and that allows Intel a great deal of control over motherboard makers.

Even if Intel knew that there was going to be a really bad supply of DDR5, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't get its DDR5 boards out there now. There is some supply after all. It also doesn't mean that Intel had any way of knowing the full extent of the supply issues. We have no idea what the memory companies told Intel about supply or necessarily what Intel told motherboard makers. In any case, the shortage of DDR5 isn't on Intel. It's on the memory makers and their supply issues. Intel has product out there. It's responsible for the chipsets, PHY's of Integrated networking and the CPU's. All of which are in decent supply. Delaying the DDR5 motherboards or Alder Lake entirely could impact stock prices and the business. It wasn't about to do that.

That's also not specific to Intel. I've seen plenty of companies release hardware before what was needed was in place. AMD's 990FX chipset based boards were optimized for Bulldozer and launched without it. Motherboard makers weren't going to let them sit in warehouses. This led to the boards being perceived as being horrendous quality given their issues with existing Phenom/Phenom II processors. Hell, I gave a couple motherboards absolutely SCATHING reviews at the time. The GIGABYTE 990FXA-UD7 in particular. Back in 2000/2001, there was a shortage of RDRAM (RAMBUS) memory but there were plenty of boards out there that supported it. Sound familiar? Intel was far more in bed with RAMBUS than it has been with any memory manufacturers since. Intel still couldn't control what they did and that situation was less bad. Back then, the issue was more about memory makers underestimating demand more than anything.

And if you think this situation is bad, we've seen paper launches from Intel and AMD where you couldn't buy a single CPU on "launch day." With the launch being announced and availability being quoted as "sometime within the next few weeks." Reviewers had samples of course, but you couldn't buy product on day one. This was actually trending towards becoming normal before HardOCP and other review sites lambasted Intel, AMD and NVIDIA for this type of nonsense. Now, they don't do it anymore.

The DDR5 boards are getting purchased, but all we see are high end motherboards with DDR5 support. Few of those are getting bought compared to DDR4 motherboards. We will probably see cheaper DDR5 boards that are more akin to mid-range offerings when DDR5 availability improves and DDR4 motherboards end up being relegated to more entry level pricing. That's how they manage this. Motherboard makers aren't releasing a deluge of DDR5 models in light of the supply issues. The high end makes up a small percentage of the market. As for using up components, the motherboard makers are using what they can get in a way that will make them as much profit as they can.

Buying a DDR4 motherboard in the interim and buying RAM for it, or reusing it isn't a compelling option. I am in the same boat as the OP aside from a greater understanding of the industry having worked as a reviewer for more than a decade. I wouldn't want to spend $200 or $300 on a DDR4 motherboard to put my system together just to get a CPU upgrade in the interim when acquiring DDR5 could be as simple as timing a refresh on Best Buy's website or being lucky at my local Microcenter. There are a lot of things to consider. The headache of installing everything, including a fresh OS. Then there is setting up everything and tuning it. Then you have Windows activation which is tied to the motherboard. In my case, I have hard tubing and custom water cooling as well. I'm not doing that work more than once if I can avoid it.

Keep in mind, I have tons of DDR4 memory kits and three Z690 motherboards sitting in my office right now. I can throw in a lower end Z690 motherboard if I want to, but it's not like my 10900K is struggling to play games or anything. It's not worth the hassle. I'll wait for my DDR5 RAM. Even if that means waiting a bit longer than I'd like. I'm not paiyng a scalper and persistence pays off. I bought a RTX 3090 FE last December without getting raped, I can probably find DDR5 as well. I'll wait. Beyond the headache and expense of DDR4 and a motherboard as a stop gap solution, the people who buy $500+ motherboards aren't the type of people who are likely to be happy with a $200 or $300 DDR4 motherboard. These are the early adopters and enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest and are willing to pay for it. I wouldn't be happy with a DDR4 stop gap and neither will many of them.

The next thing you have to understand is that E-cores not benefiting games today isn't the point and frankly that does even matter. Even if we were talking about 16 P-cores it wouldn't matter. Show me a game that can really leverage more than 8 cores. Or better yet, show me a scenario where you see much better performance at higher resolutions going from 8 to 12 or even 16 cores. You are primarily GPU bound unless you are at 1920x1080. There are games that do show some improvement at lower resolution with more than 8 cores but they are few and far between and even when they do, it's not huge. And, those extra cores show no improvement vs. an 8 or sometimes even a 6 core CPU using a high end GPU at 2560x1440 or beyond.

When software is made to take advantage of E-cores, we'll see offloading of things like Discord or web browsers to them. Yes, it will take software a while to catch up but given how Intel works with software companies and the SDK's it provides, I wouldn't worry about this. Within 2022, you'll see most major software companies like Microsoft, Adobe and others have full support for Alder Lake.
 

noko

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Messages
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There are a lot of misconceptions in this post.

You do not understand how these launches work or how the industry works in regard to motherboards, Intel and memory companies. Intel exerts a great deal of pull with motherboard manufacturers and far less with memory manufacturers. The difference? Intel makes components used on motherboards. It makes chipsets, PHY's and other components in some cases. It makes nothing that goes on the memory modules. There is a relationship there, but it isn't the same as what you see on the motherboard side. The VRD specifications are also from Intel and these companies have to follow Intel's guidelines for CPU compatibility, chipset implementation, and even the BIOS. Essentially, the two work hand in hand and that allows Intel a great deal of control over motherboard makers.

Even if Intel knew that there was going to be a really bad supply of DDR5, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't get its DDR5 boards out there now. There is some supply after all. It also doesn't mean that Intel had any way of knowing the full extent of the supply issues. We have no idea what the memory companies told Intel about supply or necessarily what Intel told motherboard makers. In any case, the shortage of DDR5 isn't on Intel. It's on the memory makers and their supply issues. Intel has product out there. It's responsible for the chipsets, PHY's of Integrated networking and the CPU's. All of which are in decent supply. Delaying the DDR5 motherboards or Alder Lake entirely could impact stock prices and the business. It wasn't about to do that.

That's also not specific to Intel. I've seen plenty of companies release hardware before what was needed was in place. AMD's 990FX chipset based boards were optimized for Bulldozer and launched without it. Motherboard makers weren't going to let them sit in warehouses. This led to the boards being perceived as being horrendous quality given their issues with existing Phenom/Phenom II processors. Hell, I gave a couple motherboards absolutely SCATHING reviews at the time. The GIGABYTE 990FXA-UD7 in particular. Back in 2000/2001, there was a shortage of RDRAM (RAMBUS) memory but there were plenty of boards out there that supported it. Sound familiar? Intel was far more in bed with RAMBUS than it has been with any memory manufacturers since. Intel still couldn't control what they did and that situation was less bad. Back then, the issue was more about memory makers underestimating demand more than anything.

And if you think this situation is bad, we've seen paper launches from Intel and AMD where you couldn't buy a single CPU on "launch day." With the launch being announced and availability being quoted as "sometime within the next few weeks." Reviewers had samples of course, but you couldn't buy product on day one. This was actually trending towards becoming normal before HardOCP and other review sites lambasted Intel, AMD and NVIDIA for this type of nonsense. Now, they don't do it anymore.

The DDR5 boards are getting purchased, but all we see are high end motherboards with DDR5 support. Few of those are getting bought compared to DDR4 motherboards. We will probably see cheaper DDR5 boards that are more akin to mid-range offerings when DDR5 availability improves and DDR4 motherboards end up being relegated to more entry level pricing. That's how they manage this. Motherboard makers aren't releasing a deluge of DDR5 models in light of the supply issues. The high end makes up a small percentage of the market. As for using up components, the motherboard makers are using what they can get in a way that will make them as much profit as they can.

Buying a DDR4 motherboard in the interim and buying RAM for it, or reusing it isn't a compelling option. I am in the same boat as the OP aside from a greater understanding of the industry having worked as a reviewer for more than a decade. I wouldn't want to spend $200 or $300 on a DDR4 motherboard to put my system together just to get a CPU upgrade in the interim when acquiring DDR5 could be as simple as timing a refresh on Best Buy's website or being lucky at my local Microcenter. There are a lot of things to consider. The headache of installing everything, including a fresh OS. Then there is setting up everything and tuning it. Then you have Windows activation which is tied to the motherboard. In my case, I have hard tubing and custom water cooling as well. I'm not doing that work more than once if I can avoid it.

Keep in mind, I have tons of DDR4 memory kits and three Z690 motherboards sitting in my office right now. I can throw in a lower end Z690 motherboard if I want to, but it's not like my 10900K is struggling to play games or anything. It's not worth the hassle. I'll wait for my DDR5 RAM. Even if that means waiting a bit longer than I'd like. I'm not paiyng a scalper and persistence pays off. I bought a RTX 3090 FE last December without getting raped, I can probably find DDR5 as well. I'll wait. Beyond the headache and expense of DDR4 and a motherboard as a stop gap solution, the people who buy $500+ motherboards aren't the type of people who are likely to be happy with a $200 or $300 DDR4 motherboard. These are the early adopters and enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest and are willing to pay for it. I wouldn't be happy with a DDR4 stop gap and neither will many of them.

The next thing you have to understand is that E-cores not benefiting games today isn't the point and frankly that does even matter. Even if we were talking about 16 P-cores it wouldn't matter. Show me a game that can really leverage more than 8 cores. Or better yet, show me a scenario where you see much better performance at higher resolutions going from 8 to 12 or even 16 cores. You are primarily GPU bound unless you are at 1920x1080. There are games that do show some improvement at lower resolution with more than 8 cores but they are few and far between and even when they do, it's not huge. And, those extra cores show no improvement vs. an 8 or sometimes even a 6 core CPU using a high end GPU at 2560x1440 or beyond.

When software is made to take advantage of E-cores, we'll see offloading of things like Discord or web browsers to them. Yes, it will take software a while to catch up but given how Intel works with software companies and the SDK's it provides, I wouldn't worry about this. Within 2022, you'll see most major software companies like Microsoft, Adobe and others have full support for Alder Lake.
Pretty long rant for my utter lack of understanding. So your saying the communication between board makers, Intel and memory makers is not important and having people buying systems they cannot use due to no reasonably priced DDR 5 ram is to be expected, maybe ok even? -> All indicates poor communication and expectations between parties involved. Using resources to make boards that cannot be used by the buyers is definitely not optimum. As for how AMD poorly related Bulldozer era makes it ok for Intel or explains Intel position now seem irrelevant.

Your case conditions and acceptance of not being able to use what you bought, accepting maybe you might get lucky, spend time hunting, standing in line maybe is on you. Others have their own views and expectations. As for the OP, if buying a DDR4 motherboard in the interim which could be sold later is just an option, it would be up to him/her if viable or acceptable or not is my opinion.

As for current day OS's, installation is around 15min. Resetting Windows 10 or 11 keeping your data/programs while configuring your new system is also possible. If you have a retail copy then there is zero issue with activation. If you have no key there is virtually zero differences one will see with no activation. Then there are many sources for OEM keys that are rather cheap in the scheme of things. I don't share your views on the OS aspects or considerations while accepting waiting several months maybe, getting lucky at some store timing is.

As for E-Cores, one could call them Bulldozer cores for games if ever used. I am sure your right, over time OS, games, other applications will effectively use both types of cores effectively. The issue is also the power requirements of Alder Lake in general does not look good. Maybe in Laptops Alder Lake will shine. Still, Alder Lake P Cores are the best gaming CPUs for high frame rates, CPU limiting type games and settings pushing frame rates.
 

kirbyrj

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On the topic of trying the latest "and greatest", some Win11 users are saying the new OS seems laggy with SSDs. https://hothardware.com/news/some-claim-win11-gimping-ssd-speeds

The differences between those numbers in that article would not produce a "laggy" machine except under very specific circumstances. For most situations, it would be an imperceptible difference. The read speeds and access times are almost identical or close enough that you wouldn't notice a difference and that's what the average user would notice.

Not to mention it has very little to do with the OPs issue.
 

travm

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The differences between those numbers in that article would not produce a "laggy" machine except under very specific circumstances. For most situations, it would be an imperceptible difference. The read speeds and access times are almost identical or close enough that you wouldn't notice a difference and that's what the average user would notice.

Not to mention it has very little to do with the OPs issue.
My benchmark scores are better than your benchmark scores :p
 

Dan_D

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Pretty long rant for my utter lack of understanding. So your saying the communication between board makers, Intel and memory makers is not important
No, I didn't say that. No where in my post did I indicate this was the case. What I am saying is that people in this thread are making assumptions about how the industry works. I'm telling you, that it doesn't work the way you think it does or necessarily the way it should. Intel can exert some measure of control over motherboard manufacturers but cannot exert the same control over memory makers. Even if it could, the memory makers cannot change the fact that the chip they need is unavailable. There are a lot of factors going on here. Demand for DDR5 may be higher than expected. Supply shortages to this extent may not have been foreseeable or correctable.
having people buying systems they cannot use due to no reasonably priced DDR 5 ram is to be expected, maybe ok even?
This is not what I said. I said that shortages like this have happened before and are not entirely unprecedented. I'm reasonably certain no one could have accurately predicted that the situation would have been as bad as it is. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that anything could have been done about it.
-> All indicates poor communication and expectations between parties involved. Using resources to make boards that cannot be used by the buyers is definitely not optimum.
Again, it doesn't necessarily indicate a communication issue. No where did I say that building parts that couldn't be used by the consumer was optimal. I simply said that the decision to release everything even with the shortage is likely a business decision and Intel and all parties doing the best they can under the circumstances. Intel, the motherboard makers and even the memory companies wish they had more product to sell. They don't make anything off the scalpers.

Trust me, if Intel could have resolved this situation in some way, it would have. Intel wants you to buy product. There are many people who have been saying that they wouldn't buy anything new until DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 were available or something to that effect. Additionally, because some people wnat DDR5, they may not buy motherboards or CPU's until it is available. The thing is, motherboard manufacturers are customers of Intel just like anyone who buys a CPU is. They sell chipsets and other things to motherboard makers, who won't order as many chipsets if they can't move them.
As for how AMD poorly related Bulldozer era makes it ok for Intel or explains Intel position now seem irrelevant.
Again, I didn't say that. At no point did I say it was OK. I'm simply providing historical context. This sort of thing happens from time to time for a variety of reasons. There are a ton of things in motion at dozens if not hundreds of companies regarding these products and their launches. Sometimes, things don't go well on someone's end and the end result is less than ideal. There is a bit of a domino effect a lot of times when one company can't deliver one seemingly simple thing on time or in the quantity required.
Your case conditions and acceptance of not being able to use what you bought, accepting maybe you might get lucky, spend time hunting, standing in line maybe is on you. Others have their own views and expectations. As for the OP, if buying a DDR4 motherboard in the interim which could be sold later is just an option, it would be up to him/her if viable or acceptable or not is my opinion.
What I said was, the type of people who buy new technologies like this are early adopters. They are enthusiasts that are probably more often like me than not. Selling your DDR5 board and going with a DDR4 board, the best of which are midrange at most is not likely an acceptable alternative for many of them. Buying a DDR4 board and taking a loss on it later isn't necessarily a good work around. It's a huge pain in the ass for a number of reasons I've already covered. I simply relayed that I'm essentially in the same position as the OP, having a lot of expensive parts sitting around I can't use because of this situation.

I sympathize, but there isn't much you can do but try and hunt down what you need. It sucks, but it is what it is.
As for current day OS's, installation is around 15min. Resetting Windows 10 or 11 keeping your data/programs while configuring your new system is also possible. If you have a retail copy then there is zero issue with activation. If you have no key there is virtually zero differences one will see with no activation. Then there are many sources for OEM keys that are rather cheap in the scheme of things. I don't share your views on the OS aspects or considerations while accepting waiting several months maybe, getting lucky at some store timing is.
Reinstalling the OS isn't really the problem. It's everything else. I can't stress that part enough. It's even worse for bandwidth limited individuals. Also, if you have an OEM copy, activation is problematic if you've done it too often in a short period of time. Few if any of you change hardware as often as I've been known to do it so I experience these problems more than most. Your denial of these issues and the difficulty or annoyance of installing and reinstalling all your programs and configuring the system doesn't change the fact that its a real consideration for people. This is especially true if the machine has a commercial use.
As for E-Cores, one could call them Bulldozer cores for games if ever used. I am sure your right, over time OS, games, other applications will effectively use both types of cores effectively. The issue is also the power requirements of Alder Lake in general does not look good. Maybe in Laptops Alder Lake will shine. Still, Alder Lake P Cores are the best gaming CPUs for high frame rates, CPU limiting type games and settings pushing frame rates.
It's just like new instruction sets or other internal processor features. It takes time for software developers to learn to leverage them. What will be interesting is whether or not this type of design will catch on with AMD or not or if it will continue to do what its doing over the long haul. Right now its mostly a stop gap so Intel can say they have 16 core CPU's on the desktop, even if some of them have more limited functionality or don't help in a lot of situations. That being said, you can run games on them alone and do so efficiently if you wanted to. In mobile applications, they really could shine as they are efficient power wise. We'll have to see how things shake out on the software side. But, you could in theory run E-cores for most things while on battery and then P-cores and or E-cores when plugged in depending on what you need.
 

Zepher

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I doubt that. The Core i9 10980XE was $999 by itself at MSRP. The Threadripper 3960X was around $1,799.99 if i recall correctly. If you were to total up everything, including the case, PSU, etc. I bet you'd find you broke $4,000 easily unless you run low end GPU's with them.
Ya, I got a 5900X with a 3080Ti and my setup was $3500 before tax
 

Dan_D

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Joined
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Messages
61,225
Ya, I got a 5900X with a 3080Ti and my setup was $3500 before tax
I think I'm at just under $3k in parts for my upgrade. Then again, I'm also doing a new case, radiators, case fans, etc. That's increasing the price quite a bit right there. The motherboard and CPU are just under $2k.
 

lopoetve

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Joined
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Messages
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I think I'm at just under $3k in parts for my upgrade. Then again, I'm also doing a new case, radiators, case fans, etc. That's increasing the price quite a bit right there. The motherboard and CPU are just under $2k.
Fortunately both the ones I quoted were just air. And pre crazy pricing that has happened - I even got discounts! I don’t want to think about the gaming system on water, but that was just a 10700K
 

noko

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No, I didn't say that. No where in my post did I indicate this was the case. What I am saying is that people in this thread are making assumptions about how the industry works. I'm telling you, that it doesn't work the way you think it does or necessarily the way it should. Intel can exert some measure of control over motherboard manufacturers but cannot exert the same control over memory makers. Even if it could, the memory makers cannot change the fact that the chip they need is unavailable. There are a lot of factors going on here. Demand for DDR5 may be higher than expected. Supply shortages to this extent may not have been foreseeable or correctable.

This is not what I said. I said that shortages like this have happened before and are not entirely unprecedented. I'm reasonably certain no one could have accurately predicted that the situation would have been as bad as it is. Even if they did, that doesn't mean that anything could have been done about it.

Again, it doesn't necessarily indicate a communication issue. No where did I say that building parts that couldn't be used by the consumer was optimal. I simply said that the decision to release everything even with the shortage is likely a business decision and Intel and all parties doing the best they can under the circumstances. Intel, the motherboard makers and even the memory companies wish they had more product to sell. They don't make anything off the scalpers.

Trust me, if Intel could have resolved this situation in some way, it would have. Intel wants you to buy product. There are many people who have been saying that they wouldn't buy anything new until DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 were available or something to that effect. Additionally, because some people wnat DDR5, they may not buy motherboards or CPU's until it is available. The thing is, motherboard manufacturers are customers of Intel just like anyone who buys a CPU is. They sell chipsets and other things to motherboard makers, who won't order as many chipsets if they can't move them.

Again, I didn't say that. At no point did I say it was OK. I'm simply providing historical context. This sort of thing happens from time to time for a variety of reasons. There are a ton of things in motion at dozens if not hundreds of companies regarding these products and their launches. Sometimes, things don't go well on someone's end and the end result is less than ideal. There is a bit of a domino effect a lot of times when one company can't deliver one seemingly simple thing on time or in the quantity required.

What I said was, the type of people who buy new technologies like this are early adopters. They are enthusiasts that are probably more often like me than not. Selling your DDR5 board and going with a DDR4 board, the best of which are midrange at most is not likely an acceptable alternative for many of them. Buying a DDR4 board and taking a loss on it later isn't necessarily a good work around. It's a huge pain in the ass for a number of reasons I've already covered. I simply relayed that I'm essentially in the same position as the OP, having a lot of expensive parts sitting around I can't use because of this situation.

I sympathize, but there isn't much you can do but try and hunt down what you need. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Reinstalling the OS isn't really the problem. It's everything else. I can't stress that part enough. It's even worse for bandwidth limited individuals. Also, if you have an OEM copy, activation is problematic if you've done it too often in a short period of time. Few if any of you change hardware as often as I've been known to do it so I experience these problems more than most. Your denial of these issues and the difficulty or annoyance of installing and reinstalling all your programs and configuring the system doesn't change the fact that its a real consideration for people. This is especially true if the machine has a commercial use.

It's just like new instruction sets or other internal processor features. It takes time for software developers to learn to leverage them. What will be interesting is whether or not this type of design will catch on with AMD or not or if it will continue to do what its doing over the long haul. Right now its mostly a stop gap so Intel can say they have 16 core CPU's on the desktop, even if some of them have more limited functionality or don't help in a lot of situations. That being said, you can run games on them alone and do so efficiently if you wanted to. In mobile applications, they really could shine as they are efficient power wise. We'll have to see how things shake out on the software side. But, you could in theory run E-cores for most things while on battery and then P-cores and or E-cores when plugged in depending on what you need.
Thanks for all of your clarifications.

Now information/news on DDR5 future availability is also lacking. That would help one decide on getting parts now or waiting is a better option besides all the others. AMD vs. Intel at this stage is looking much better for a launch in comparison -> plenty of motherboards already in use that can be upgraded -> AMD will most likely not be able to make enough CPUs. Any new boards/revisions will not be hindered by at least availability of ram. If DDR5 floods the market in 2 months, then that would be great, if it trickles in with the current high prices - ugh!

For those wanting to go high end Alder Lake, at this time it is probably best to procure the DDR5 before splurging on the rest.
 

DrezKill

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DDR4 was super-scarce in 2014 when it came out. I built a new system in Fall 2014, and I had to wait a month for the RAM which was on back-order. And being brand-new, DDR4 also cost a fucking fortune at the time. I expected the same thing to happen with DDR5 when it launched, and that was years before the worldwide components shortage happened.

You wanna complain about the lack of DDR5, don't ask Intel, they had nothing to do with it. Go ask Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron.
 

lopoetve

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This is very much a transitional product in my mind. First release of a hybrid CPU; really needs a brand new OS, first with DDR5, mixed PCIE speeds and types…. THATS why I’m avoiding it till the next gen. 10th might have only been incremental, but it’s a known quantity and works well. 13th will probably have all this nailed.
 

Dan_D

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DDR4 was super-scarce in 2014 when it came out. I built a new system in Fall 2014, and I had to wait a month for the RAM which was on back-order. And being brand-new, DDR4 also cost a fucking fortune at the time. I expected the same thing to happen with DDR5 when it launched, and that was years before the worldwide components shortage happened.

You wanna complain about the lack of DDR5, don't ask Intel, they had nothing to do with it. Go ask Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron.
All newer RAM technologies are scarce in comparison when they launch. I've been around for everything from the SIPP, SIMM, EDO SIMMs and DIMMs to all versions of RAMBus, SDRAM and DDR. It's always the same deal. Memory manufacturers tool up to produce the new stuff but the demand for the older stuff will be higher as memory upgrades are not only used in new systems, but are probably the most common upgrade made to older computers. I went with X99 when it was new and it took awhile to get DDR4 for my own personal use. Granted, supply seems weaker than usual with DDR5, but supplies for a lot of stuff are bad. Hence the insane car pricing and so on.
 

funkydmunky

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Seems like a severe lack of communication between Intel, motherboard makers and memory makers for the launch. Why would the motherboard makers make boards, use up hard to find parts on boards where the users will not be able to put to use? Causing the boards over time sitting on the shelf, being returned etc.? Anyways this Intel launch is not going that well overall. E-cores are worthless or just plain weak for gamers, incompatibilities with games due to E-Cores and updates needed for games (expected with new core design), motherboard prices are much higher, the top end boards are available but not all parts can be obtain to get system working if going all new..

Now personally if I found myself in OP situation -> Buy decent but cost effective DDR4 motherboard and put my parts to use. Maybe even sell the DDR 5 motherboard. Seeing available scalped DDR5 prices -> nope -> DDR4 motherboard purchase route.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l2632&_nkw=ddr5+ram&_sacat=175673

lol, on the bidding war with the DDR 5 ram.
I think Intel knew exactly what they were doing. This was more about capturing mind share with DDR5 and PCI Express 5 and Efficientcy Cores as the catch words to drive the hype with the obviously good reviews based on benchies. It's unfortunate with the supply issues but not really Intel's time to give a shit at this pivotal time. That's why they made the DDR4 boards to insure volume.
 

noko

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I think Intel knew exactly what they were doing. This was more about capturing mind share with DDR5 and PCI Express 5 and Efficientcy Cores as the catch words to drive the hype with the obviously good reviews based on benchies. It's unfortunate with the supply issues but not really Intel's time to give a shit at this pivotal time. That's why they made the DDR4 boards to insure volume.
Probably Dan is right, pretty much Intel does not have much they can do. I see it as Intel is pushing next generation of memory forward by creating a rather big demand for it which will influence more production in the long run. I would think DDR5 is more lucrative now then DDR4 for memory manufacturers to start moving over to it more. Less of a gamble for them now knowing there is a market starving for it.
 

funkydmunky

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Intel made sure the key reviewers got DDR5. It is about, hey looka what we got not about hey looka what you can buy :D
 
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Captain Newmackwa

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Intel made sure the key reviewers got DDR5. It is about, hey looka what we got not about hey looka what you can buy :D
It's not like that stopped those key reviewers from testing Alder Lake with DDR4 anyway. The comparisons of DDR4 vs. DDR5 on the 12th gen are a dime a dozen for us consumers to be able to make an informed decision.
 
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Dan_D

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I think Intel knew exactly what they were doing. This was more about capturing mind share with DDR5 and PCI Express 5 and Efficientcy Cores as the catch words to drive the hype with the obviously good reviews based on benchies. It's unfortunate with the supply issues but not really Intel's time to give a shit at this pivotal time. That's why they made the DDR4 boards to insure volume.
A lot of these reasons played into why Intel chose to release Z690 and Alder Lake-S despite the supply issues with DDR5. It's a PR win for them that they support technologies that AMD doesn't. It's seen as more advanced and newer. Business is about perception as much as it's about having the best product.
 

Dan_D

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Intel made sure the key reviewers got DDR5. It is about, hey looka what we got not about hey looka what you can buy :D
You can always tell what the supply is going to look like by what reviewers get hardware. When it's everyone, the supply should be good. When it's just the biggest Youtubers and websites, it's likely going to suck.
 

N4CR

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It's a PR win for them that they support technologies that AMD doesn't. It's seen as more advanced and newer. Business is about perception as much as it's about having the best product.
I've seen a lot of salt generated, with often multi-paragraphs explaining stuff the average PC build/user type these days doesn't understand nor care for and not much else. Bit like zen1 launch, better in some ways but with its own drawbacks and it's difficult to communicate. Next one is ecosystem price/perf, I'd bet their cheap boards will have the same cheap board issues as every other.
Dropping prices at launch in a tech shortage about sums it up, plus AMD hasn't touched pricing in response yet.
 

Elios

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Hole Lee SHIT. In the fucking microwave...really dude. But then say its ok it is under 200 watts. Well i guess democrat's really are that fucking stupid.
reminds me troll that cut down the PCIe tab to fit in an AGP slot years ago lol
 
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