Why so excited for the iPhone X ? It's the same old thing running boring iOS

Aurelius

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And you know this how? The X isn't even out yet or tested. What is out currently is what I am discussing and what we know.

I am far from an Android fan. My Note 8 is my favorite Android. But I have had iPhones since the 3G. My last was my 7 plus. I have actually hated Android till recently after I saw how well it has become. The point is, anytime Apple Fanboys lose they cry and make up excuses. It is a good phone, but it isn't the best phone. Apple has lost it's way in design period. The X will not sell well at that price period.

Android gets timely o/s updates every month and has face recognition that works unlike Apples that failed.

And you know this sales performance how? (Hey, turnabout is fair play.) It hasn't gone on sale yet. Given that the consensus is that many enthusiasts are waiting for the iPhone X, it's entirely likely that it'll sell as well as supplies allow.

I know the iPhone X's cameras will be more competitive due to simple physics. A wider aperture on the second camera means it absorbs more light, so low-light performance will be better; adding OIS to that camera will improve its sharpness in virtually all situations, and should reduce noise even in moderately well-lit scenes. Whether or not it's better than the Note 8 is hard to say, but it will be better than the iPhone 8 Plus.

Also, I have to be blunt: you're getting some technical claims straight-up wrong.

Android gets monthly security updates, and only some devices actually receive them on a monthly basis. What I'm referring to are updates that improve functionality... you know, upgrades, not fixes. Yeah, if you have a recent Pixel or Nexus you didn't have to wait too long to get Oreo, but what if you have an S8 or Note 8? Hope you don't mind getting Oreo by the time you're hearing about the Galaxy S9.

And sorry, but Apple's face recognition does work. You clearly didn't pay attention to the story beyond the initial headlines. You know what caused that problem on stage? Enough people had stared at the phone that it triggered the "you need to enter your passcode" failsafe. In other words, it worked exactly as it was supposed to. Plus, it's a bit rich to brag about face recognition "that works" when Samsung's can be fooled by a photo. You need to use the iris scanner for a vaguely secure option, and it's still more vulnerable than Face ID.

Look, you say you're "far from an Android fan," but that's not how you're behaving. You're clearly riding on that high of not only getting a brand new phone, but of switching and experiencing a platform you hadn't touched for years. You feel you have to defend Android and the Note 8 at all costs because the switch was a very important decision to you. I'm not asking you to return your Note! What I am saying is that even a Note 8 isn't going to be the best at everything, and that the iPhone X is likely to be just dandy as a phone (even given its price), particularly for people who have no inclination toward Android or Samsung devices.

For context: I've used multiple mobile platforms regularly. An iPhone is my daily driver, but I regularly use Android and even dabble in Windows phones. And you know what? That kind of constant contact changes your perspective. Instead of feeling like you have to cheerlead for the only platform you use, you realize that it's okay for other platforms to have advantages so long as the one you use happens to work well for you. Basically, I'm telling you to breathe. Relax. It's a phone; Samsung will not be in trouble if you don't go to bat for it at every opportunity.
 

NIZMOZ

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What's amazing is that every tech blog on Earth treats every iPhone reveal as the 2nd coming of JC and a new era in phones, when the changes at best are minor.

A decade of copying Android features, which in Apple speak is 'for the first time ever', and according to all these bloggers and Apple Apologists, 'its not done properly till Apple does it'. And still iOS is a locked down OS with a horrible notification system, Siri is a joke, the keyboard is a joke, and you still can't share files between apps.

The one good point, pretty much the only thing iPhone does better, is battery life.

Use to do better in battery life. See this video. iOS 11 ruined it. And agreed on everything else. Android has had all those features for years, and when Apple gets them, it's the best thing since sliced bread and all the apple fans think no one has had it before and Apple invented it. Makes me sick.

 

NIZMOZ

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Because I've been around Apple since the phone came out. I know that the iPhone X is overpriced. I know that Apple also had hardly any iPhone 8 sales, which are down. When Apple isn't changing hardly anything any more people are noticing. Everyone on the MacRumors forum or should I say a lot of them, are leaving Apple now for a phone because of it. It's all over the web how badly they are doing. Apples stocks dropped when they announced both the phones. That notch is ugly. Only hard core Apple fans will get it. It is a poor design. Only the blind that do not see that are the ones that are fanboys for Apple and refuse to believe anything.

Android gets software/security updates all the time. I already had a software and security update on my Note 8 since I got it. Yes, to improve functionality! Apple releases a major O/S upgrade once a year just like Android. There is not that much of a difference between the two other than Google devices (Pixel, Nexus) get it a bit earlier than Samsung/LG and so on.

Why do I need the latest O/S when I already have more features than iOS period! What new features do I need? I have more than an iPhone already! If I got an iPhone, I would be downgrading myself to an iOS with less features.

The Face Recognition FAILED. Yes, I did pay attention. Most believed Apples lies. It was configured for his face. He tried to unlock it once. It failed. He wiped his face again, it failed and then asked for the code. That is how it works. It wasn't tampered with at all. There are many discussions on the web from legit sources about this that Apple gave a BS story like they usually do (You are holding it wrong).



I've been in Technology for 30 years, and I don't go by peoples opinion and how they are blinded. I go by the facts. So don't tell me I am a fan or not of something when I own more Apple stuff in this house than Android. You have proven to be the fan however of Apple. I don't need to defend anything, it's out there on the web and I am just relaying it and correcting peoples mis-information.

And you know this sales performance how? (Hey, turnabout is fair play.) It hasn't gone on sale yet. Given that the consensus is that many enthusiasts are waiting for the iPhone X, it's entirely likely that it'll sell as well as supplies allow.

I know the iPhone X's cameras will be more competitive due to simple physics. A wider aperture on the second camera means it absorbs more light, so low-light performance will be better; adding OIS to that camera will improve its sharpness in virtually all situations, and should reduce noise even in moderately well-lit scenes. Whether or not it's better than the Note 8 is hard to say, but it will be better than the iPhone 8 Plus.

Also, I have to be blunt: you're getting some technical claims straight-up wrong.

Android gets monthly security updates, and only some devices actually receive them on a monthly basis. What I'm referring to are updates that improve functionality... you know, upgrades, not fixes. Yeah, if you have a recent Pixel or Nexus you didn't have to wait too long to get Oreo, but what if you have an S8 or Note 8? Hope you don't mind getting Oreo by the time you're hearing about the Galaxy S9.

And sorry, but Apple's face recognition does work. You clearly didn't pay attention to the story beyond the initial headlines. You know what caused that problem on stage? Enough people had stared at the phone that it triggered the "you need to enter your passcode" failsafe. In other words, it worked exactly as it was supposed to. Plus, it's a bit rich to brag about face recognition "that works" when Samsung's can be fooled by a photo. You need to use the iris scanner for a vaguely secure option, and it's still more vulnerable than Face ID.

Look, you say you're "far from an Android fan," but that's not how you're behaving. You're clearly riding on that high of not only getting a brand new phone, but of switching and experiencing a platform you hadn't touched for years. You feel you have to defend Android and the Note 8 at all costs because the switch was a very important decision to you. I'm not asking you to return your Note! What I am saying is that even a Note 8 isn't going to be the best at everything, and that the iPhone X is likely to be just dandy as a phone (even given its price), particularly for people who have no inclination toward Android or Samsung devices.

For context: I've used multiple mobile platforms regularly. An iPhone is my daily driver, but I regularly use Android and even dabble in Windows phones. And you know what? That kind of constant contact changes your perspective. Instead of feeling like you have to cheerlead for the only platform you use, you realize that it's okay for other platforms to have advantages so long as the one you use happens to work well for you. Basically, I'm telling you to breathe. Relax. It's a phone; Samsung will not be in trouble if you don't go to bat for it at every opportunity.
 

samp

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I am excited because I have been using an iPhone 6 for over the last two years, waiting for my free upgrade to come. For me, it is a huge update but I am still not sure if I am going to get the iPhone 8 or iPhone 6. $999 is a bit expensive!
 

NIZMOZ

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1) Apple deals with both Qualcomm and Intel for their modem chipset. Intel chips do not have the capacity for GB LTE. The closest they can reach is 600 mbps. (already 150 mbps less than the existing carrier upgrade). Some iPhones have Qualcomm chips which have the ABILITY to work and achieve GB LTE speeds if your carrier can manage it.

2) Apple has crippled the features on the Qualcomm chip to match that of the Intel chip (currently a lawsuit going on regarding this). So when they release the phones next year (Intel has a GB LTE chip in the works but not ready for release at this time). Your new phone, should you have bought one, will be unable to achieve the carrier max speed should it exceed 600 mbps!

3) Apple would not activate these chips because the uproar between the carriers that carry the Qualcomm chips vs the Intel chips would be insane!

4) After researching the chipsets sold on the 8 and 8 Plus are NOT the Qualcomm chips.

5) S8, S8+, and Note 8 support GB LTE out of the gate.

For myself I could NOT justify spending that much money on a phone that is crippled, for a watch that may or may not have connectivity issues (hardware or software yet undetermined), as well as what I feel is a risk that the design of the current iPX is merely a beta product for Apple, I couldn't do it... And the watch can't receive regular text messages, only imessage! My Gear S3 does regular text messages. Apple does things half baked.
 

CHANG3D

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Apple is rumored to be making its own modems in house. I dunno if it's a rumor cause Apple has basically confirmed that they have invested in research and development of a baseband modem chip. I don't know how quickly that will come though.
 

Aurelius

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Because I've been around Apple since the phone came out. I know that the iPhone X is overpriced. I know that Apple also had hardly any iPhone 8 sales, which are down. When Apple isn't changing hardly anything any more people are noticing. Everyone on the MacRumors forum or should I say a lot of them, are leaving Apple now for a phone because of it. It's all over the web how badly they are doing. Apples stocks dropped when they announced both the phones. That notch is ugly. Only hard core Apple fans will get it. It is a poor design. Only the blind that do not see that are the ones that are fanboys for Apple and refuse to believe anything.

Android gets software/security updates all the time. I already had a software and security update on my Note 8 since I got it. Yes, to improve functionality! Apple releases a major O/S upgrade once a year just like Android. There is not that much of a difference between the two other than Google devices (Pixel, Nexus) get it a bit earlier than Samsung/LG and so on.

Why do I need the latest O/S when I already have more features than iOS period! What new features do I need? I have more than an iPhone already! If I got an iPhone, I would be downgrading myself to an iOS with less features.

The Face Recognition FAILED. Yes, I did pay attention. Most believed Apples lies. It was configured for his face. He tried to unlock it once. It failed. He wiped his face again, it failed and then asked for the code. That is how it works. It wasn't tampered with at all. There are many discussions on the web from legit sources about this that Apple gave a BS story like they usually do (You are holding it wrong).



I've been in Technology for 30 years, and I don't go by peoples opinion and how they are blinded. I go by the facts. So don't tell me I am a fan or not of something when I own more Apple stuff in this house than Android. You have proven to be the fan however of Apple. I don't need to defend anything, it's out there on the web and I am just relaying it and correcting peoples mis-information.


So, so many false or unprovable statements.

First: whatever you think of the iPhone X's pricing doesn't mean it won't sell well. People have been complaining that the iPhone is overpriced since 2007; see Steve Ballmer's infamous comments about the original iPhone. It's a question of whether or not people are willing to pay. Also, on iPhone 8 sales: you genuinely don't know anything about sales, because Apple hasn't reported anything. All we know is that the usual iPhone pre-order crush didn't happen... because, surprise, many people are waiting for the iPhone X. This is an unusual launch year for Apple: it's spreading out its high-end iPhone launches, and there's a split between the hardcore I'll-buy-the-best-of-whatever-Apple-makes buyers and those who were just waiting to replace their existing iPhone on contract/installments at a similar price. I'm expecting people to freak out over Apple's summer quarter sales (which should be reported this month) because they may be down compared to last year, when the iPhone 7 line was the only high-end option; however, I also expect its fall quarter sales (likely reported in January) to be higher than last year as it'll combine both 8 and X sales.

And yes, both Android and iOS get one major software upgrade every year. However, there are some important distinctions. First: Apple also releases significant minor upgrades throughout the year, in many cases adding very visible user features. Google doesn't do that as often, and there are Android vendors who will actually skip these entirely in favor of major OS updates. Also, as I said, there's the matter of timeliness. My iPhone was running iOS 11 within minutes of it being available; I'm looking forward to early 2018 when you're still wondering where your Note 8's Oreo update is, and when it does hit why it doesn't have the same purely software-driven features as the S9.

There's a simple reason why timely OS updates matter: because when features are ready, you don't have to wait months longer to get them. And remember, Apple actually supports its OS beyond two years, so you don't have to buy a new phone every 2-3 years to get more value. And don't deny it: while there are definitely things Android does better than iOS, it's those timely updates that have meant that iPhone users were enjoying some features first. Night mode arrived first on iOS, and it was part of a minor update rather than a major release, for example.

Face ID still didn't fail. I watched that video; it's a joke. Really, you're trusting a YouTube vlogger's uninformed editorial as absolute fact? He wasn't backstage, he certainly doesn't know the inner workings of Face ID... and simply speaking, the passcode feature would never trigger so quickly with one person who'd barely started looking at it. And no one said it was tampered with. The whole point was that stage crew were looking at it, triggering successive attempts by accident. That does raise concerns about what happens if you unlock your phone on a busy street, but even then, it should see your face almost instantly.

And I'm sorry to say, but the length of time you've been in tech doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're talking about. You certainly need some experience, but I've seen veteran tech analysts (Rob Enderle is the most notorious example) proclaim gloom and doom for a company while clearly misunderstanding what a company was trying to do or who it was catering to. You say you go by the facts, but clearly you don't -- you were speculating and making assumptions about iPhone sales without any facts to go on, for starters. You say you're "correcting peoples [sic] mis-information," but a lot of what you just said was based on opinion, not hard data.
 

Zorachus

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brettjrob

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Battery life used to be a main selling point of the Note series, if not the selling point. Now it's middling because Samsung, like most of the major Android OEMs, decided they needed to pivot to form over function and race after Apple from behind, rather than keep playing a game they can win at with a different customer base. Pathetic.
 

brettjrob

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I believe we need healthy support for Apple, at least so long as it changes its practices if it ever becomes the majority phone/computer maker. Right now, iOS is all that stands between Google and an absolute Android monopoly. And while that would theoretically lead to more people having choices in their devices, in practice I suspect it'd lead to stagnation. Google's Pixel line and numerous underlying improvements to Android wouldn't exist without Apple keeping that pressure up, for instance, and of course Samsung regularly looks to the iPhone as its feature roadmap. Same thing with Microsoft, for that matter. Would Windows have any kind of touch optimization if it weren't for the iPhone and iPad? Steve Ballmer was convinced all humans are preprogrammed to love Windows, and it took Apple kicking Microsoft's ass in MP3 players and mobile for him to realize this wasn't true.

I'd add that I don't think Apple was the instigator of the no-headphone-jack trend. LeEco, Motorola and others had already unveiled phones without headphone jacks by the time the iPhone 7 showed up. The difference is that Apple made it 'okay' to do this.

And while moves like that are sometimes iffy... let's face it, sometimes progress in tech needs a company with both a singular will and the clout to make it a reality. Apple's stubbornness is why carriers have far less control over smartphones than they did in 2007; Apple is why mobile payments are actually taking off; Apple is why computers quickly transitioned to USB. There's a kind of 'natural' inertia to the Android and Windows worlds where there are rarely major shifts that aren't just about speeds-and-feeds upgrades.
There's definitely some truth to Apple pushing risky innovations that might be harder sells for a company with lots of similar competition. I will acknowledge that. The multi-touch philosophy of the original iPhone is a good example.

At the same time, that's only the good side of the coin. The bad side is that they can push design choices that maximize profit, and are either mixed or bad for consumers, without much pushback. I absolutely blame Apple for sealed batteries and planned obsolescence in this market. Back at the beginning of the decade, almost all major Android OEMs produced phones with plastic removable backs, replaceable batteries, and expandable storage. The horror, right?! This was a pro-consumer design philosophy that maximized utility and longevity; and with a decent case on, the plastic barely mattered, in terms of durability or even aesthetics. Apple, of course, knew they didn't have to worry about their customers demanding utilitarian designs or longevity, as long as the bling factor was there. Over the past five years, they not only "made it OK" to seal everything off; they made it mandatory. And look at the timeline - at first, Android OEMs defaulted to function over form, but then they were actively pushed away from that because of Apple, a.k.a. the cancer of the marketplace. The headphone jack is a similar story. Its removal will sell billions in Apple accessories, adapters, and probably bluetooth Beats, with minimal benefit in terms of internal design. It's a profit-maximizing move that only Apple has the clout and lock-in to pull off, among major OEMs. If LG tried it before Samsung or vice-versa, they'd see a bunch of customers switch to the other.

And as far as the scumbag U.S. carriers: I'm not sure what favor Apple's done for the rest of the smartphone market in that arena. They have enough leverage to get what they want in terms of direct-to-consumer software updates, being sold in all carrier stores, etc. Most Android OEMs don't, and we all suffer for it.
 
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Aurelius

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And as far as the scumbag U.S. carriers: I'm not sure what favor Apple's done for the rest of the smartphone market in that arena. They have enough leverage to get what they want in terms of direct-to-consumer software updates, being sold in all carrier stores, etc. Most Android OEMs don't, and we all suffer for it.

I'm not going to directly reply to most of what you said, because it's a mix of somewhat accurate stuff with some anti-Apple invective, but I do want to elaborate on this.

Remember what the phone market was like before the iPhone? Many carriers had very tight control over not just the software, but the hardware. You'd get a tiny carrier-run app store, and networks like Verizon would insist on disabling hardware features like Bluetooth (to steer you toward their paid services, of course) or telling OEMs how to design their phones. After the iPhone and Android, though? It took some time, but they gradually had to accept app stores they didn't control and let go of their grip on phone design. Yeah, bloatware still exists, and there are occasional carrier exclusives, but the days when carriers could basically shape the entire experience for a phone are gone. And that includes smaller vendors, too. I do agree that smaller companies don't usually have the luxuries of wide distribution or timely OS updates, but compare that to the old days when carriers wouldn't even let those OEMs use their own names or run their own services.
 

MrCrispy

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Battery life used to be a main selling point of the Note series, if not the selling point. Now it's middling because Samsung, like most of the major Android OEMs, decided they needed to pivot to form over function and race after Apple from behind, rather than keep playing a game they can win at with a different customer base. Pathetic.

People are stupid. They see Apple ads and want to buy iPhone, money be damned. Samsung tried making superior phones with lots of extra features for many years, no one cared, all the blogs which are run by 20-something idiots with no actual knowledge always compared Android phones poorly with iPhone, because they weren't as 'shiny' and because all they care about is looks and fashion appeal. So Samsung had no choice but to follow. Hence a lot of features have been removed.

There hasn't been a more disingenous and dishonest company than Apple. Their standard procedure is to claim everything a competitor has as useless and 'bad for users' - this applies to pretty much every single feature - screen size, multitasking, notification, control center, copy paste, app store etc etc. Then they come out with their own version, give it a fancy name, and claim its an amazing advance, and every tech site follows like dumb sheep. I can't think of a single thing Apple did first. You basically look at flagship Android phones to determine what iPhone will get 2-4 years later. And iOS is still primitive.
 

CHANG3D

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The problem with Android is that most people's experience with Android are tainted by Samsung's Lagwiz and lack of quick updates. And Google hasn't done very much to put themselves into a better position by having carrier store exclusivity when they know the reason why Nexuses didn't sell much is due to lack of awareness, the lack of carrier financing, and the lack of places for people to check it out hands on.
 

Aurelius

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People are stupid. They see Apple ads and want to buy iPhone, money be damned. Samsung tried making superior phones with lots of extra features for many years, no one cared, all the blogs which are run by 20-something idiots with no actual knowledge always compared Android phones poorly with iPhone, because they weren't as 'shiny' and because all they care about is looks and fashion appeal. So Samsung had no choice but to follow. Hence a lot of features have been removed.

There hasn't been a more disingenous and dishonest company than Apple. Their standard procedure is to claim everything a competitor has as useless and 'bad for users' - this applies to pretty much every single feature - screen size, multitasking, notification, control center, copy paste, app store etc etc. Then they come out with their own version, give it a fancy name, and claim its an amazing advance, and every tech site follows like dumb sheep. I can't think of a single thing Apple did first. You basically look at flagship Android phones to determine what iPhone will get 2-4 years later. And iOS is still primitive.

Holy hell, you need to grow up.

You were on this forum in 2007. You do know that Apple essentially defined the modern smartphone, right? I'm not going to pretend it was first with everything or that there aren't things Android does better, but your entire rant wouldn't even be possible if it weren't for the iPhone. I could pick apart everything point by point, but it's pretty obvious your self-esteem is wrapped up in your choice of phone.
 

MrCrispy

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Holy hell, you need to grow up.

You were on this forum in 2007. You do know that Apple essentially defined the modern smartphone, right? I'm not going to pretend it was first with everything or that there aren't things Android does better, but your entire rant wouldn't even be possible if it weren't for the iPhone. I could pick apart everything point by point, but it's pretty obvious your self-esteem is wrapped up in your choice of phone.

This is not so cut and dry though. This is just like saying that Apple invented the mp3 player. I'm not going to deny their contributions and impact but I also won't look at everything through rose colored glasses.
 

NIZMOZ

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FACTS:

1) iPhone 8 sales were down because there were NO LINES, no sold out phones. You can just walk in and get one. People who work at the stores have said they haven't been selling hardly any.

2) iPhone X sales are expected to be down per what many analysts that do this for a living. The price of an iPhone $1500 is nuts. That is over $700 more than a normal iPhone 8 unless you get the 64gb, no warranty but that is still around $1100 w/tax.

3) Many Polls have proved not as many as expected are waiting for the X. They are sticking to their current phones.

4) You maybe running iOS 11 in minutes, and 11.01, but now its flawed with bugs because it was rushed out. I rather them take their time and no issues before releasing. I have not seen any major issues from Android updates as I have seen from Apple updates lately. https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordon...-problems-bluetooth-performance/#713e06555d95

5) Again, why do I need the Oreo update? I have more features than iOS already, and it does what I need it to do right now! When I had my iPhone, I was always hoping Apple would come out with more features like Android and it rarely happens.

6) There are people with S6 phones still receiving updates. Most people don't keep their phones for more than 2 years.

7) Night Shift you mean? If so, neat idea, most never use it. I know me and all my friends don't.

8) Face ID did fail. Read the articles. That is how the locking system works. Even on MacRumors they even agree it failed and say to not believe Apple. Apple will lie to not make themselves look bad. It was very obvious the phone tried twice to unlock with face ID. Sorry if you don't like the facts.

I obviously know more than you sir. Have a nice day.



So, so many false or unprovable statements.

First: whatever you think of the iPhone X's pricing doesn't mean it won't sell well. People have been complaining that the iPhone is overpriced since 2007; see Steve Ballmer's infamous comments about the original iPhone. It's a question of whether or not people are willing to pay. Also, on iPhone 8 sales: you genuinely don't know anything about sales, because Apple hasn't reported anything. All we know is that the usual iPhone pre-order crush didn't happen... because, surprise, many people are waiting for the iPhone X. This is an unusual launch year for Apple: it's spreading out its high-end iPhone launches, and there's a split between the hardcore I'll-buy-the-best-of-whatever-Apple-makes buyers and those who were just waiting to replace their existing iPhone on contract/installments at a similar price. I'm expecting people to freak out over Apple's summer quarter sales (which should be reported this month) because they may be down compared to last year, when the iPhone 7 line was the only high-end option; however, I also expect its fall quarter sales (likely reported in January) to be higher than last year as it'll combine both 8 and X sales.

And yes, both Android and iOS get one major software upgrade every year. However, there are some important distinctions. First: Apple also releases significant minor upgrades throughout the year, in many cases adding very visible user features. Google doesn't do that as often, and there are Android vendors who will actually skip these entirely in favor of major OS updates. Also, as I said, there's the matter of timeliness. My iPhone was running iOS 11 within minutes of it being available; I'm looking forward to early 2018 when you're still wondering where your Note 8's Oreo update is, and when it does hit why it doesn't have the same purely software-driven features as the S9.

There's a simple reason why timely OS updates matter: because when features are ready, you don't have to wait months longer to get them. And remember, Apple actually supports its OS beyond two years, so you don't have to buy a new phone every 2-3 years to get more value. And don't deny it: while there are definitely things Android does better than iOS, it's those timely updates that have meant that iPhone users were enjoying some features first. Night mode arrived first on iOS, and it was part of a minor update rather than a major release, for example.

Face ID still didn't fail. I watched that video; it's a joke. Really, you're trusting a YouTube vlogger's uninformed editorial as absolute fact? He wasn't backstage, he certainly doesn't know the inner workings of Face ID... and simply speaking, the passcode feature would never trigger so quickly with one person who'd barely started looking at it. And no one said it was tampered with. The whole point was that stage crew were looking at it, triggering successive attempts by accident. That does raise concerns about what happens if you unlock your phone on a busy street, but even then, it should see your face almost instantly.

And I'm sorry to say, but the length of time you've been in tech doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're talking about. You certainly need some experience, but I've seen veteran tech analysts (Rob Enderle is the most notorious example) proclaim gloom and doom for a company while clearly misunderstanding what a company was trying to do or who it was catering to. You say you go by the facts, but clearly you don't -- you were speculating and making assumptions about iPhone sales without any facts to go on, for starters. You say you're "correcting peoples [sic] mis-information," but a lot of what you just said was based on opinion, not hard data.
 

NIZMOZ

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iPhone 8 is NOT the battery champ. Especially with the newest OS releases.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordon...-problems-bluetooth-performance/#713e06555d95


Apple iPhone 8 Plus vs Samsung Galaxy Note 8

https://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Apple-iPhone-8-Plus-vs-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-8_id4417/page/4

Seems the iPhone 8 Plus is the battery champ, all the reviews on it show better than 7 Plus battery life, ( which was already known to be very good on battery life, and that users saying the 8 Plus is good bit better on battery )

But the Note 8 has a way nicer display, and can do so much more than an iOS device.
 

NIZMOZ

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Battery life used to be a main selling point of the Note series, if not the selling point. Now it's middling because Samsung, like most of the major Android OEMs, decided they needed to pivot to form over function and race after Apple from behind, rather than keep playing a game they can win at with a different customer base. Pathetic.

It out lasts my 7 plus I had. My Note 8 battery lasts 6-7 hours SOT.
 

NIZMOZ

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The problem with Android is that most people's experience with Android are tainted by Samsung's Lagwiz and lack of quick updates. And Google hasn't done very much to put themselves into a better position by having carrier store exclusivity when they know the reason why Nexuses didn't sell much is due to lack of awareness, the lack of carrier financing, and the lack of places for people to check it out hands on.

Agreed for 3 years or so ago. Today with the Note 8, it is nothing like it was with the S6 and older. My s7 edge is even smooth. But my Note 8 is the fastest phone I have owned, and has not lagged one time or an APP crash. I had daily App crashes on my iPhone and lag too.
 

Aurelius

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This is not so cut and dry though. This is just like saying that Apple invented the mp3 player. I'm not going to deny their contributions and impact but I also won't look at everything through rose colored glasses.

Oh, I know, but you just went on a tirade acting as if Apple never accomplished anything huge, and that's just not true. Take MP3 players, for example. Did Apple invent them? Hell no -- they'd been around for 3 years. But Apple licked the ease of use problem while also giving people enough capacity in a pocketable form (until then, 5GB usually meant getting a Discman-sized behemoth). It took the MP3 player from this arcane device used by geeks to something anyone with a PC could use.

Same thing with smartphones. They certainly existed before, and even multi-touch technology had existed before, but those aren't what matter; it's that Apple used multi-touch to turn the smartphone from something used by jet-setting businesspeople and hardcore enthusiasts to a device that just about anyone could use.
 

NIZMOZ

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Holy hell, you need to grow up.

You were on this forum in 2007. You do know that Apple essentially defined the modern smartphone, right? I'm not going to pretend it was first with everything or that there aren't things Android does better, but your entire rant wouldn't even be possible if it weren't for the iPhone. I could pick apart everything point by point, but it's pretty obvious your self-esteem is wrapped up in your choice of phone.

Actually no, they didn't. See, when you get stuck in Apples stuff, you ignore reality. And he is acting grown up. I see a few here being upset that Apple is getting this negative feedback that they deserve.

http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-first-smartphone-simon-launched-before-iphone-2015-6

https://www.quora.com/The-iPhone-wa...-apps-so-in-what-way-did-it-change-everything
 

Aurelius

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FACTS:

1) iPhone 8 sales were down because there were NO LINES, no sold out phones. You can just walk in and get one. People who work at the stores have said they haven't been selling hardly any.

2) iPhone X sales are expected to be down per what many analysts that do this for a living. The price of an iPhone $1500 is nuts. That is over $700 more than a normal iPhone 8 unless you get the 64gb, no warranty but that is still around $1100 w/tax.

3) Many Polls have proved not as many as expected are waiting for the X. They are sticking to their current phones.

4) You maybe running iOS 11 in minutes, and 11.01, but now its flawed with bugs because it was rushed out. I rather them take their time and no issues before releasing. I have not seen any major issues from Android updates as I have seen from Apple updates lately. https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordon...-problems-bluetooth-performance/#713e06555d95

5) Again, why do I need the Oreo update? I have more features than iOS already, and it does what I need it to do right now! When I had my iPhone, I was always hoping Apple would come out with more features like Android and it rarely happens.

6) There are people with S6 phones still receiving updates. Most people don't keep their phones for more than 2 years.

7) Night Shift you mean? If so, neat idea, most never use it. I know me and all my friends don't.

8) Face ID did fail. Read the articles. That is how the locking system works. Even on MacRumors they even agree it failed and say to not believe Apple. Apple will lie to not make themselves look bad. It was very obvious the phone tried twice to unlock with face ID. Sorry if you don't like the facts.

I obviously know more than you sir. Have a nice day.

1. AS I SAID, the iPhone launch is split between the 8 and X; there isn't any shock that you can walk in and get one, because the 8's launch didn't include the enthusiasts waiting for the X. Also, we still don't have any sales figures, so you can't say anything definitive.

2. Wrong. Analysts have said that iPhone X sales will be constrained by part supplies (particularly the depth sensor tech and OLED screens), not by demand. Apple will probably sell as many iPhone X units as it can make, at least for the first few months.

3. Can you actually cite polls? And are these scientifically rigorous polls, or self-selecting polls on fan sites?

4. You clearly haven't been paying attention to the Oreo launch. There's a widely known bug that disables mobile data, one that triggers random reboots... you're confusing volume of coverage with severity. Hey, Oreo gets a delayed launch and it's buggy out of the gate! Is iOS 11 buggy? You bet, but at least I got it quickly and will get fixes quickly.

5. Performance. Convenient interface tweaks. Frameworks. It's funny: you'll swear at one moment that Android really does get frequent updates, but claim in the next moment that it's actually better to not get them when you're called on your bluff.

6. Many Android devices still don't get updates. Google even cuts off its own phones after two years. And why are you making excuses? Do you think it's fair to punish a low-income person with permanent security flaws and limited compatibility because they couldn't justify getting a new phone every two years? And of course, that's assuming they bought a phone that got a full two years of support. Budget Android phones sometimes get no more than one update or less.

7. "Most never use it?" Care to back that up with stats? Again, you're making excuses. Well, I don't personally use it, therefore it doesn't count. You know damn well people use it, and there are other features that have popped up mid-cycle that people use.

8. I did read the articles. You're still wrong.

Can I be frank for a moment? You're genuinely, profoundly ignorant on technical issues. And I'm not saying this in the usual forum squabble sense. I mean it -- I would tell this to your face. You swear up and down that you're not an Android fan, but you're going out of your way to make excuses for every Android failing and to insist that Apple is doooooomed because... well, you don't actually have numbers to back up that claim, just vague hunches. It's like so much of your self-esteem is wrapped up in your phone switch that you feel you must cheerlead for Android and Samsung at all costs.
 

Aurelius

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Actually no, they didn't. See, when you get stuck in Apples stuff, you ignore reality. And he is acting grown up. I see a few here being upset that Apple is getting this negative feedback that they deserve.

http://www.businessinsider.com/worlds-first-smartphone-simon-launched-before-iphone-2015-6

https://www.quora.com/The-iPhone-wa...-apps-so-in-what-way-did-it-change-everything

Did you actually read what I goddamn wrote?

I said the modern smartphone. Modern. Modern. I know smartphones existed before the iPhone, including touchscreen smartphones; what I'm saying is that Apple established the basic template for a smartphone as we know it today, with a full-touch design that was optimized for fingers, not pen input, and was aimed at everyday people, not business users and hardcore enthusiasts.
 

NIZMOZ

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2. Wrong huh? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/ana...one-sales-expectations-are-not-realistic.html How about you research before correcting me again.

3. CNET, and other sites.

4. A few have OREO at work on Pixels and have no issues.

5. No bluff. You are the one that said they were slow.

6. Again, not many keep their phones past 2 years. What excuses? What other stuff are you going to continue to make up?

7. Most don't KNOW ABOUT IT. So most don't use it. Look it up.

The only ignorant person here is yourself. I already proved you wrong AGAIN above. And stop with the name calling. You have yet to prove me wrong on anything unlike I have.

1. AS I SAID, the iPhone launch is split between the 8 and X; there isn't any shock that you can walk in and get one, because the 8's launch didn't include the enthusiasts waiting for the X. Also, we still don't have any sales figures, so you can't say anything definitive.

2. Wrong. Analysts have said that iPhone X sales will be constrained by part supplies (particularly the depth sensor tech and OLED screens), not by demand. Apple will probably sell as many iPhone X units as it can make, at least for the first few months.

3. Can you actually cite polls? And are these scientifically rigorous polls, or self-selecting polls on fan sites?

4. You clearly haven't been paying attention to the Oreo launch. There's a widely known bug that disables mobile data, one that triggers random reboots... you're confusing volume of coverage with severity. Hey, Oreo gets a delayed launch and it's buggy out of the gate! Is iOS 11 buggy? You bet, but at least I got it quickly and will get fixes quickly.

5. Performance. Convenient interface tweaks. Frameworks. It's funny: you'll swear at one moment that Android really does get frequent updates, but claim in the next moment that it's actually better to not get them when you're called on your bluff.

6. Many Android devices still don't get updates. Google even cuts off its own phones after two years. And why are you making excuses? Do you think it's fair to punish a low-income person with permanent security flaws and limited compatibility because they couldn't justify getting a new phone every two years? And of course, that's assuming they bought a phone that got a full two years of support. Budget Android phones sometimes get no more than one update or less.

7. "Most never use it?" Care to back that up with stats? Again, you're making excuses. Well, I don't personally use it, therefore it doesn't count. You know damn well people use it, and there are other features that have popped up mid-cycle that people use.

8. I did read the articles. You're still wrong.

Can I be frank for a moment? You're genuinely, profoundly ignorant on technical issues. And I'm not saying this in the usual forum squabble sense. I mean it -- I would tell this to your face. You swear up and down that you're not an Android fan, but you're going out of your way to make excuses for every Android failing and to insist that Apple is doooooomed because... well, you don't actually have numbers to back up that claim, just vague hunches. It's like so much of your self-esteem is wrapped up in your phone switch that you feel you must cheerlead for Android and Samsung at all costs.
 

CHANG3D

Supreme [H]ardness
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This Aurelius vs Nizmoz debate has been more entertaining than anything from the Twilight or the 50 Shades series.
 

exlink

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This Aurelius vs Nizmoz debate has been more entertaining than anything from the Twilight or the 50 Shades series.
LastingQuestionableCamel-size_restricted.gif
 

Trimlock

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Reminds me of the time we'd get HTC AND SAMSUNG schills here all the time. Watching both of them duke it out.

I'm not calling either of our posters schills, but it's been a while.
 

CHANG3D

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Reminds me of the time we'd get HTC AND SAMSUNG schills here all the time. Watching both of them duke it out.

I'm not calling either of our posters schills, but it's been a while.
Or "topsy turdy" with his alternative facts and complete utter BS. This here is a debate on facts/fact-based interpretations and predictions on stock and sales etc! So applause, everyone!

P.S. I don't remember any HTC shills though.
 
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MrCrispy

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Apple's success is first and foremost due to marketing. Whatever ease of use/form factor etc they bring to their products is secondary, none of it would matter without all the marketing, ads and hype. This is obviously something people won't agree on, because its seen as an 'attack'. The simple fact is Apple have very few actual technical innovations in either actual tech or UI features, you can sing praises of 'polish and ease of use' all day but at the end of the day none of that matters without real substance. This is very obvious in MacBooks too which have somehow acquired this image of being 'well built' due to all their 'unibody' ads when the pc industry had been using that for years, just without shiny aluminum.

I place much more value on actual technical advances and innovation than the person who dresses things up. Put another way, the McDonald brothers are the real deal, Ray Kroc was/is a piece of shit, but he got the credit, the fame and the $$, exactly like Steve Jobs.
 

UnknownSouljer

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At the risk of spending a pointless amount of time on your bias, let me ask you a few questions.

Apple's success is first and foremost due to marketing. Whatever ease of use/form factor etc they bring to their products is secondary, none of it would matter without all the marketing, ads and hype. This is obviously something people won't agree on, because its seen as an 'attack'.

1 - Statement): All product development is the result of marketing. Market as a term is often misused by the general public. "The management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably.". Or in layman's terms: finding out what a specific market subset wants and creating a product to fit that subset. Under this basic principal, yes, Apple created a product people want. And their success is due to that, as is any other company that has a successful product. So, if you truly mean 'marketing' is the business sense of the word, I don't get how you can even be upset at Apple. They simply know their market and have created a product that suits their market. That's what any company would want. Now what you may be referring to is advertising. Which brings me to 2.

2 - Question): Tell me anything remotely unique about what Apple does in their advertising that is so different than any other company?
If you are giving 100% of their success to their advertising (or whatever percentage you want to assign above 51% as you state this is the primary reason why people buy their products) then show me any Apple advertisement or strategy they are using that isn't comparable to any other manufacturer. Let's say Samsung. Last I checked, everyone is doing slowmo videos of phones with 'hip/cool' music. I don't think showing off product at a trade show is remotely unique either.


The simple fact is Apple have very few actual technical innovations in either actual tech or UI features, you can sing praises of 'polish and ease of use' all day but at the end of the day none of that matters without real substance. This is very obvious in MacBooks too which have somehow acquired this image of being 'well built' due to all their 'unibody' ads when the pc industry had been using that for years, just without shiny aluminum.

3 - Question): Why do you feel that ergonomics (ease of use) aren't "substance"?
If you really believe that, then you must feel that GUIs in general are superfluous and that every computer should still operate on some variety of command line interface. The major reason being is that GUIs and their associated workflows in general were designed to make using a system easier, limiting the amount of time it would take to understand how to use it. GUI's versus command line is a big illustration for a piece of tech about ergonomics. If one product is incredibly difficult to use, has a high learning curve, and takes hours to accomplish basic tasks and the other one doesn't, can you honestly state that that has zero value or as you state: no "real substance"? Because I think what you're really trying to state is that the difference in ease of use between the two products isn't a big enough deal to you, while ignoring that that possibly matters for other people.
Business principles tell us that each part of a product has value. Including things most people don't immediately recognize as being part of 'the product'. Amazon as an example created this idea of making books easily purchasable over the internet in the late 90's. The ease of buying something and having it delivered to you is their product. The delivery mechanism in it itself has value. My point in even stating this is that you have things that you value, it's clear in certain cases, value above literally anything else (which you more or less state later, with regards to 'innovation'). But you fail to recognize that every person has different things they value. It is critically for this reason that you fail to see Apple's value proposition. Because you're unable to have the empathy to see from other people's perspective. Or perhaps a more simplified and blunt way of putting it is that the iPhone isn't designed for you, because you fall outside of the demographic that Apple is targeting. But for some reason instead of simply being okay with the fact that these products aren't made for you, you have to find some reason why they are inferior or aren't worth consideration when clearly a significant part of the marketplace does.

4 - Question): Can you please define technical innovation in any meaningful sense? Is that defined as first to market or is that defined by who developed the technology (because companies don't really do this people do)?
Apple may be guilty of what other can call 'lack of innovation'. However, they're all guilty. Everyone has stolen from everybody. The intellectually honest at this point don't care. What they care about is the best product or at least the best product for them (and by "best product for them" I'm defining that more as their particular market segment).
To me, honestly, there hasn't been any innovation for a while in either camp. Innovation to me is something that fundamentally changes the way I interact with something or creates an actual change in my life in terms of how I interact with the world. Like I talked about earlier about GUI versus command line, that was innovation (thanks Xerox). Amazon destroying brick and mortar was innovation. These things changed how I live. Fingerprint scanner? Okay well I guess that changes how I unlock a phone, but to me that's thin ice in comparison with the start in 2007 of making a touch screen only device for the masses. Or the idea of making a device modular from a software perspective and app centric. Or the idea of the modern cellphone in general taking the place of 15+ devices.
Frankly Apple and Google both haven't done anything for me lately (in terms of innovation). Everything has been evolutionary not revolutionary. And that's fine, the PC processor and GPU market is much the same way. But it's incredibly disingenuous to go on and on about innovation or one side is doing it more or less than the other when honestly any change will reach parity in one generation or less. And any so-called change isn't a big enough pull to necessitate upgrading to from year to year unless you're an enthusiast and having the latest phone is your hobby.

5 - Question): What substance does Apple lack?
Their products for the most part are at parity with any other manufacturer. There are only 2 points that generally people that are tech enthusiasts can point at, and both are subjective, not objective.
1.) That they care about customization or open vs closed systems while ignoring that both sides have advantages and disadvantages. (While of course leaning heavily on the advantages of their own preference pointing out the disadvantages of the other side while also ignoring the disadvantages of their preferences and the advantages of the other side).
2.) Cost - Which is basically parity. The iPhone doesn't cost much more than any other flagship smartphone. The cost of buying any Mac is comparable to other premium offerings such as the Surface Studio or Surface Pro or any other specialized piece of hardware. It's possible to argue that Apple carries a slight premium but certainly not as big a one as most think. This is without even considering things such as brand equity or perception in the market place. It's stuff like this that allows VW to sell a Golf for 1.5x as much as a Civic Hatchback. If you think that "value" is fine, then you should be okay with Apple as well, as it operates on the same principles. The VW has the greater perceived value, which is equity within itself.
In case you didn't notice, every manufacturer does this relative to their place in the market. I see your complaining about Apple, but I don't see you spending nearly as much time doing the same thing to Samsung which costs more than every other Android manufacturer. Even versus Android manufacturers that arguably make a better more comprehensive product as compared to Samsung. It's just that Apple is at the very top, which means they have the target on their back. But if you really understood how this works, you would know that given the chance every manufacturer would cost as much as Apple or more. Because they would profit more. It's just they can't, because they lack the brand equity to do so (but they are using other basic economic strategies, which are also economics 101. Such as selling a larger volume of product for less. Or creating a niche product to their market segment. etc). Blaming Apple because they're successful, especially successful in their market segment, is idiotic. You may as well blame capitalism or market forces.

6 - Statement): If you don't understand the concept of product perception, I would suggest you read about it. I would also spend time reading about the concept of halo products, perceived value, or in general about bias. Because what you're discussing or what you don't get when you talk about, for instance, MacBook durability is that you're on the other side of product perception. You have a bias against Apple so therefore even if Apple did create a better durability product (let's say they don't for arguments sake because honestly it doesn't matter in a conversation about perception), you would find any reason why they don't in order to support your bias. If you don't think that cognitive bias exists, then I can link you to videos in the 70's in which a subset of autobuyers spent time and money smashing imported Japanese cars with sledgehammers because they were outselling American made cars (and also anti-Japanese sentiment, which also goes hand in hand with bias). It didn't matter whether or not the lesser expensive, better built, Japanese cars did the things the American cars weren't. Only the perception mattered. The difference for the buyers of Apple products is that they're on the reverse side from you about product perception. Where they do feel they are getting a better value from things like "durability", or "polish", or "feel" from Apple.
And before you use that as a tool to blame Apple for what they are doing, you should also recognize that once again these are basic product principles that every other company in the world also operates on and under. Which is why you have your product perception about Android and what they're doing. And why you feel they're more innovative. And why you think what they bring to the market is more important than what Apple is doing.


I place much more value on actual technical advances and innovation than the person who dresses things up. Put another way, the McDonald brothers are the real deal, Ray Kroc was/is a piece of shit, but he got the credit, the fame and the $$, exactly like Steve Jobs.

7 - Question): In what ways do any Apple products lack some level of tech that is necessary, not for you, but for a majority of the public (or perhaps even more clearly: what piece of tech do they lack for their market segment)?
Because this understanding is critical to Apple's success. If Apple is so lacking in accomplishing something critical, they wouldn't be able to sell their products.
I think it's incredibly easy to think: "Apple can just sell anything they want" due to how unstoppable they seem right now, but there was a time in the late 90's in which they almost ceased to exist as a company. It doesn't matter if you have 50 billion dollars in the bank. If you cease to create a product people want, you fail. The end. That's why every company in the tech bubble failed. That's why Xerox is irrelevant. Or MySpace. Or Palm, Blackberry, Polaroid, or Kodak. Everyone of those business were at the zenith, thought untouchable. Then failed to change to do something relevant, perhaps not immediately. Generally it took 5-10 years for them to decline, but their lack of change made their demise inevitable. When Apple ceases to be relevant, they will cease to be a company. This is literally business 101. But you seem to feel like you understand more about these subjects than what basic economic principles tell us.
Talking about McDonalds, regardless of how you feel about them, doesn't change the fact that they bring the product to market that people want. I haven't eaten at McDonalds in over 15 years, intentionally. But I respect their business acumen, marketing (in the correct sense of the word, creating a product their market wants), and advertising (their ability to get the word out). I can argue all day about how their product is garbage and they use horrifying business practices to sell their products (from a moral perspective), but that doesn't change the fact that they are making what people want.

8 - Statement): Thank you for at least here, at the end, recognizing that at least part of what you're doing is stating how you place value. The only issue I have is then that you use what you value and blanket statement that everyone else should therefore value the same things.
 
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CHANG3D

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I did write something about Apple's marketing genius, but as I was looking for sources to cite, I found this article. It's a good read. And honestly I think a history lesson is good read right now.

https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/10-steve-jobs-marketing-lessons

I was original writing about nextstep. And how it didn't create the first GUI or OS or whatever. But it was the first object-oriented OS, and look at how Apple/IBM and Microsoft failed at their first response. (Obviously MS figured it out later.) Another thing I was pointing out was how application dock from nextstep is still there on macOS like 24 years later. (And if y'all didn't know that nextstep became MacOS after Steve Jobs returned to Apple...)
 
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Battery life used to be a main selling point of the Note series, if not the selling point. Now it's middling because Samsung, like most of the major Android OEMs, decided they needed to pivot to form over function and race after Apple from behind, rather than keep playing a game they can win at with a different customer base. Pathetic.
I'd say that the selling point of a Galaxy Note is the Wacom pen; otherwise, it's just a big smartphone.

The thing is, every Galaxy Note generation up through the Note 4 wasn't just an upsized Galaxy S with a pen; they went all-out on features and SoC upgrades. Battery life just happened to be a nice bonus with the size allowing for a bigger cell to fit, and because they had removable backs back then, adding an extended battery was pretty trivial, with none of the kludge of a battery case separately recharging an internal, sealed cell.

But now they've been scaling back ever since the Note 5, and it's biting them in the ass big time with the Note 8, in part because they started releasing upsized Galaxy S flagships that have the size, but not that one most notable feature. Cue YouTubers calling the Note 8 an overpriced S8+ with a pen, while somehow ignoring just how useful that pen is.

I can tell you that while I do have a Note 8, I never asked for fragile glass backs with sealed batteries, curved screen edges (which don't belong on a penabled phone) or the loss of the IR blaster. It's just what I moved to out of lack of alternative choices.

I said the modern smartphone. Modern. Modern. I know smartphones existed before the iPhone, including touchscreen smartphones; what I'm saying is that Apple established the basic template for a smartphone as we know it today, with a full-touch design that was optimized for fingers, not pen input, and was aimed at everyday people, not business users and hardcore enthusiasts.
You know, this makes me think all the way back to when the first iPhone was released over a decade ago. No App Store. No multitasking. No cut/copy paste. NO MEMORY CARD SLOTS. NO REMOVABLE BATTERY. NO 3G. EXCLUSIVE TO AT&T FOR $600 ON CONTRACT.

I was a pretty avid Palm OS and Windows Mobile user at the time, and I quickly saw the iPhone's shortcomings in that it had a really good Web browser and nothing else going for it yet, insisting on Windows Mobile 6.5 and prior until Android matured. I do admit the Palm Pre was a bit tempting along the way, though; just remember that it did card multitasking and wireless charging way before Android devices did, let alone iOS! Nice slider keyboard, too... but webOS was not to be.

Yeah, I was very much an enthusiast; while I didn't have a smartphone per se, I remember impressing my classmates by connecting my Dell Axim X50v to a projector with a VGA cable and showing off a presentation that way. I even went to XDA-developers to get some custom ROMs for the X50v and the competing HP iPAQ hx4700, back when "XDA" was a carrier-specific rebranding of various HTC-made Windows Mobile devices; that site is older than a lot of people think.

I liked pen input, dammit, so I was none too fond of Steve Jobs' infamous "If you see a stylus, they blew it" comments and wanted to point to all my math notes to say "No, you idiot, it's the one thing I need!" Capacitive multi-touch was pretty nice, but not worth giving that up... well, until the Galaxy Note came along and boasted that with a Wacom EMR pen that blew the old resistive digitizer and plain passive stylus implementation out of the water. That was truly the PDA of a new age.

So, unsurprisingly, that's why I've largely stuck to the Galaxy Note line between the Note 4 and Note 8 (and it would've been a Note 2 if not for Sprint BOGO limitations at the time, so I ended up with an S3 instead for my first smartphone). I feel like they're the best of both worlds, particularly the Note 4.
 

CHANG3D

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Yet for most people, the pen on the Note series is mostly gimmick. People hardly use it. Sure, some people like you do. But most people just kept it inside the phone. (I believe we had a topic on that a few years ago.) People mostly bought the Note because it's got a bigger display and bigger battery. So between Samsung's Galaxy S8+ and Note 8, where the Note 8 is only slightly bigger, with 2GB more RAM, but lesser battery, there's really not much point for people to purchase it over an S8+. When you can find two GS8+ for over a hundred less than one Note 8, is 2GB of RAM worth that much?

But I do love your talking of past nearly forgotten XDA history. Thanks!
 

CHANG3D

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Sorry folks, but I'm done arguing with Nizmoz. Someone who treats opinion and anecdotes as absolute facts and whose argument devolves to "I'm right because I'm always right" isn't worth anyone's time. I'm just going to get an iPhone X and enjoy living in a world where tangible data and genuine expertise matter.
:cry::acry:
 

Aurelius

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Messages
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You know, this makes me think all the way back to when the first iPhone was released over a decade ago. No App Store. No multitasking. No cut/copy paste. NO MEMORY CARD SLOTS. NO REMOVABLE BATTERY. NO 3G. EXCLUSIVE TO AT&T FOR $600 ON CONTRACT.

I was a pretty avid Palm OS and Windows Mobile user at the time, and I quickly saw the iPhone's shortcomings in that it had a really good Web browser and nothing else going for it yet, insisting on Windows Mobile 6.5 and prior until Android matured. I do admit the Palm Pre was a bit tempting along the way, though; just remember that it did card multitasking and wireless charging way before Android devices did, let alone iOS! Nice slider keyboard, too... but webOS was not to be.

Yeah, I was very much an enthusiast; while I didn't have a smartphone per se, I remember impressing my classmates by connecting my Dell Axim X50v to a projector with a VGA cable and showing off a presentation that way. I even went to XDA-developers to get some custom ROMs for the X50v and the competing HP iPAQ hx4700, back when "XDA" was a carrier-specific rebranding of various HTC-made Windows Mobile devices; that site is older than a lot of people think.

I liked pen input, dammit, so I was none too fond of Steve Jobs' infamous "If you see a stylus, they blew it" comments and wanted to point to all my math notes to say "No, you idiot, it's the one thing I need!" Capacitive multi-touch was pretty nice, but not worth giving that up... well, until the Galaxy Note came along and boasted that with a Wacom EMR pen that blew the old resistive digitizer and plain passive stylus implementation out of the water. That was truly the PDA of a new age.

So, unsurprisingly, that's why I've largely stuck to the Galaxy Note line between the Note 4 and Note 8 (and it would've been a Note 2 if not for Sprint BOGO limitations at the time, so I ended up with an S3 instead for my first smartphone). I feel like they're the best of both worlds, particularly the Note 4.

I hear you. At the same time, I think you also understand why the iPhone shaped the modern smartphone. Yeah, it didn't have any kind of pen support (not a problem for most people), 3G, GPS or even an autofocusing camera, but you know what it did have? A touchscreen interface people actually wanted to use, and a phone platform that actually treated the internet as a first-class citizen, rather than some "fine, if you must" feature that was secondary to editing Office documents. Hell, I still remember how Nokia's Symbian phones would ask you to choose a connection method every single time you wanted to do something online, as if the internet was a special event.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
662
I hear you. At the same time, I think you also understand why the iPhone shaped the modern smartphone. Yeah, it didn't have any kind of pen support (not a problem for most people), 3G, GPS or even an autofocusing camera, but you know what it did have? A touchscreen interface people actually wanted to use, and a phone platform that actually treated the internet as a first-class citizen, rather than some "fine, if you must" feature that was secondary to editing Office documents. Hell, I still remember how Nokia's Symbian phones would ask you to choose a connection method every single time you wanted to do something online, as if the internet was a special event.
I can't say I've ever used a Symbian device (prior to snagging this old Nokia 9290 Communicator from a thrift store), so I wouldn't know how glaringly bad their UI was regarding connectivity. I did want to check out the N810 and N900 back in the day (they got slider keyboards over the old models!) since they ran Maemo/MeeGo as opposed to the fragmented mess that is Symbian, but never ended up buying either. I suppose they were a sorta practical successor to the also Linux-based Sharp Zaurus lineup, if anyone else remembers those.

I can at least say that I didn't have too much problem with Windows Mobile 2003 SE/5/6/6.5 in that regard, no "connecting to Wi-Fi" message like I'd constantly see on Palm OS. I suppose comparing classic Windows Mobile to Palm OS was like comparing Windows NT to the classic Mac OS, because the latter could never multi-task properly.

However, Web browsers of the time were pretty damn lousy things. Blazer and NetFront on Palm OS were bad, so much so that a large reason why I jumped to Windows Mobile was because Opera Mobile 8.65 was just that much better, actually making desktop sites really usable on a VGA-screened device. Of course, the iPhone raised the bar for mobile browsing so much that Opera Mobile 9 had to follow suit, mainly featuring double-tap-to-zoom and a zoom bar in lieu of actual multi-touch.

Also speaking of editing Office documents, the mobile software at the time was pretty subpar, too. Documents To Go on Palm OS was fine for editing, not so fine for actually creating the whole thing on-device. Office Mobile (Microsoft's own apps!) was similarly limited. TextMaker and PlanMaker on Windows Mobile were actually worth using, but cost a good chunk of change by mobile software standards.

I had to rock my PDAs hard back then because I didn't have any sort of laptop/Tablet PC; too expensive, not portable enough, would get even more unwanted attention in high school. Ironically, I use a modern smartphone less intensively than I did back then simply because I am now in the position to use other mobile devices more suitable to such computing-intensive tasks much of the time. That's what happens when someone gets more disposable income and can find more sophisticated hardware selling for cheap on second-hand markets as the years go by.
 

brettjrob

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
387
People are stupid. They see Apple ads and want to buy iPhone, money be damned. Samsung tried making superior phones with lots of extra features for many years, no one cared, all the blogs which are run by 20-something idiots with no actual knowledge always compared Android phones poorly with iPhone, because they weren't as 'shiny' and because all they care about is looks and fashion appeal. So Samsung had no choice but to follow. Hence a lot of features have been removed.
I know some will see this as hyperbole, but it really does cut to the core of a major issue. When debating hardware design, specifically the transition from plastic/utilitarian to unibody/aesthetics-first across the Android market, Apple fans are likely to argue "hey, it turns out that's just what the average consumer wants, more bling!" While there may be some truth, I'd argue the media/blogs played a major role. Whether you call it marketing, advertising, or whatever else, Apple lives by a different set of rules than the rest of the world, in the eyes of the media. When they make a fundamental design choice, it's the de facto standard by which everyone else has to live, lest they receive poor reviews. And reviews play an important role in driving the success of tech products. Even if Joe Sixpack doesn't read The Verge himself, the ripple effects from those kind of outlets trashing Android hardware circa 2012 for being "non-premium" (read: ewww, this looks like a poor person's phone, everyone I saw this morning walking around Manhattan had a shiny fruit logo on theirs!) are likely quite significant.

It's possible to recognize that Apple has real advantages to their ecosystem and even their OS while also acknowledging that for many, especially what might loosely be called the "coastal elite" in the U.S., it's also a status symbol and ticket into a cultural phenomenon with a significant irrational component. Most of the tech nerds in this thread defending Apple likely enjoy their products for rational reasons, but I doubt they can deny that this phenomenon is real, and the way it influences the broader tech market is annoying as shit. For people like the ones in this thread lamenting how the Note series has changed radically over the past several iterations, it's not hard to see how this played into it.
 

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
3,963
I can't say I've ever used a Symbian device (prior to snagging this old Nokia 9290 Communicator from a thrift store), so I wouldn't know how glaringly bad their UI was regarding connectivity. I did want to check out the N810 and N900 back in the day (they got slider keyboards over the old models!) since they ran Maemo/MeeGo as opposed to the fragmented mess that is Symbian, but never ended up buying either. I suppose they were a sorta practical successor to the also Linux-based Sharp Zaurus lineup, if anyone else remembers those.

I can at least say that I didn't have too much problem with Windows Mobile 2003 SE/5/6/6.5 in that regard, no "connecting to Wi-Fi" message like I'd constantly see on Palm OS. I suppose comparing classic Windows Mobile to Palm OS was like comparing Windows NT to the classic Mac OS, because the latter could never multi-task properly.

However, Web browsers of the time were pretty damn lousy things. Blazer and NetFront on Palm OS were bad, so much so that a large reason why I jumped to Windows Mobile was because Opera Mobile 8.65 was just that much better, actually making desktop sites really usable on a VGA-screened device. Of course, the iPhone raised the bar for mobile browsing so much that Opera Mobile 9 had to follow suit, mainly featuring double-tap-to-zoom and a zoom bar in lieu of actual multi-touch.

Also speaking of editing Office documents, the mobile software at the time was pretty subpar, too. Documents To Go on Palm OS was fine for editing, not so fine for actually creating the whole thing on-device. Office Mobile (Microsoft's own apps!) was similarly limited. TextMaker and PlanMaker on Windows Mobile were actually worth using, but cost a good chunk of change by mobile software standards.

I had to rock my PDAs hard back then because I didn't have any sort of laptop/Tablet PC; too expensive, not portable enough, would get even more unwanted attention in high school. Ironically, I use a modern smartphone less intensively than I did back then simply because I am now in the position to use other mobile devices more suitable to such computing-intensive tasks much of the time. That's what happens when someone gets more disposable income and can find more sophisticated hardware selling for cheap on second-hand markets as the years go by.

Symbian wasn't uniformly terrible, but it was... bad. Clearly developed by a company that was focused on features over ease of use. Hey, we have 3G, GPS and one of the first 5-megapixel phone cameras! But you have to choose between 3G and WiFi every time you want to visit the web, and our OS is so unstable that you need to reboot every 1-2 days just to prevent it from melting into a pile of goo. Even later Symbian phones like the X7 had that latter problem. Windows Phone was kind of a miracle for Nokia as it meant the company had a semi-modern platform that actually worked the way you'd expect.

Between that and your Palm/Windows experience, it reminds me of part of why the iPhone did so well: it got rid of so many of the eccentricities of its rivals. There was just so much... crap that you had to put up with on other platforms, like connection prompts, crude browsers and operating systems that were seemingly designed to crash. In a sense, I'm not surprised that it took another year for the iPhone to support third-party apps, because I can't imagine Apple wanting to rush it and encourage the poor app quality that you saw at the time.
 

CHANG3D

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
4,975
So far no phone crashes with 11.0.2. But I did have to force close WhatsApp to fix the keyboard bug.
 
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