We all need a little more of this in our lives. NFT Market Collapses Just As Square Enix Sells Tomb Raider To Bet Big On Blockchain

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
30,220
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/15/tech/bill-gates-crypto-nfts-comments/index.html

Well now it's official, Crypto and NFT's are a scam. Ol Bill says so.

When did he become the defacto standard for input on various topics from "news" outlets. Of all the cancel culture bullshit in this world, he survives it.

He's just saying that until he can mint his own Jeffrey Epstein coin...

Wait a minute, why did my Windows just deactivate...and now my computer is shutting down with smoke coming out of it...ahhh...

In all seriousness, Gates has been anti-crypto forever. This is nothing new.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
35,420
Crypto currency is going to be a part of the future no matter what, just wish it wasn’t based on cryptographic mechanics

I'm going to disagree. I just don't see any value in crypto what so ever. It doesn't do anything at all for us that existing instruments or currencies don't.

I see it as a fad, like beanie babies or Tamagotchi, and now the market has started to catch on, and the value is this plummeting.

I just think it is a shame that so many have used it as a get rich quick scheme and have scammed others out of their savings.
 
Last edited:

KazeoHin

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
8,724
I'm going to disagree. I just don't see any value in crypto what so ever. It doesn't do anything at all for us that existing instruments or currencies don't.

I see it as a fad, like beanie babies or Tamagotchi, and now the market has started to catch on, and the value is this plummeting.

I just think it is a shame that so many have used it as a get rich quick scheme and have scammed others out of their savings.

I respectfully disagree.

The current Crypto Crash is due to Crypto holdings being liquidated to meet margin requirements by major financial institutions. This isn't anyone 'waking up' and realising that their crypto is somehow less valid than fiat. The financial sector is frighteningly full of ridiculously over-leveraged bets with layers upon layers of rehypothecated assets being borrowed against, and the recent drop in the NYSE has forced MANY to close positions due to their leverage no longer being valuable enough to meet margin calls from other financial institutions. The market is eating itself and liquidating their assets in order to feed itself to itself.

Crypto assets are often used as collateral/margin/leverage and the fact that the mass crypto crash follows the SP500 decline is evidence of this.

I'm neither here nor there on Crypto. I do think it holds more future potential than fiat as it's decentralised. I don't own any crypto, myself.
 

lopoetve

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
33,293
I respectfully disagree.

The current Crypto Crash is due to Crypto holdings being liquidated to meet margin requirements by major financial institutions.
It’s an unregulated security. Or so you all keep telling us. So which financial institutions? Oh wait, none of them but the crypto ones that are worried about going out of business?? Mkay.
This isn't anyone 'waking up' and realising that their crypto is somehow less valid than fiat.
It’s less valid than fiat except guns and drugs, and would be there but for major regulations and government oversight and all that.
The financial sector is frighteningly full of ridiculously over-leveraged bets with layers upon layers of rehypothecated assets being borrowed against, and the recent drop in the NYSE has forced MANY to close positions due to their leverage no longer being valuable enough to meet margin calls from other financial institutions.
Because all of those have to report to the SEC. Coin base and the like only have to as a business; not as a broker. This should tell you something. (Hint; if they go bankrupt tomorrow you’re fucked, unlike an actual broker dealing in real currencies or securities).
The market is eating itself and liquidating their assets in order to feed itself to itself.
Ayup
Crypto assets are often used as collateral/margin/leverage and the fact that the mass crypto crash follows the SP500 decline is evidence of this.
Sure. No evidence that I’ve seen either way, but I’ll buy your premise for the moment. I doubt it’s significant like you think, but sure.
I'm neither here nor there on Crypto. I do think it holds more future potential than fiat as it's decentralised. I don't own any crypto, myself.
Why does decentralization make any difference? That’s one part crypto bros have never managed to explain other than “I don’t like the government” - unless you live on a sea stead, you don’t get a choice.
 

KazeoHin

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
8,724
It’s an unregulated security. Or so you all keep telling us. So which financial institutions? Oh wait, none of them but the crypto ones that are worried about going out of business?? Mkay.
Not quite. Many large market-makers and funds hold crypto

It’s less valid than fiat except guns and drugs, and would be there but for major regulations and government oversight and all that.

I mean, Fiat is based on a pinky-swear from the FED, and I don't think we've seen the last of runaway inflation because of their printer. Neither is ideal, but Crypto is at least not reliant on any central agency, and is an actual finite resource.

Because all of those have to report to the SEC. Coin base and the like only have to as a business; not as a broker. This should tell you something. (Hint; if they go bankrupt tomorrow you’re fucked, unlike an actual broker dealing in real currencies or securities).

Reporting to the SEC is like showing your grades to your blind grandma. It's self-reported, and the consequences for billions of dollars of ill-gotten gains usually work out to be fines of a few hundred thousand to a few tens of millions, without ANY admission of wrongdoing. In other words, the SEC take their cut as a price of doing business. Funds and brokers are more afraid of other funds and brokers than the SEC.

Also, I'm not sure how a crypto broker going bankrupt is different to a stock broker or bond fund going bankrupt. your assets are fucked either way. By the way, it seems more hedge funds are going bankrupt/closing down than crypto brokers at the moment (or its possible my news feed emphasises different stories, who knows)

Ayup

Sure. No evidence that I’ve seen either way, but I’ll buy your premise for the moment. I doubt it’s significant like you think, but sure.

I think we've only seen the beginning of this downturn in both crypto and fiat. Remember, where there is money to be made: legal, logical, or legitimate don't matter. Money is money, and the finance industry will take it any way they can. money money money, and Crypto has been a great source of money for them. I can't think of one reason the international Ponzi scheme that is the financial sector wouldn't go whole-hog into something as lucrative as crypto.

Why does decentralization make any difference? That’s one part crypto bros have never managed to explain other than “I don’t like the government” - unless you live on a sea stead, you don’t get a choice.
Well, decentralising a currency frees it from the FED and other major players like banks. No more needing a bank. This also means that it can change hands between unsavory characters, yes. But the same with the US$.

The US dollar is loaned to the people by the FED, and their policy on how and when they loan out or collect can mean literal life and death. you're seeing in REAL TIME how the very human choices of the FED and JPow can affect the world at large. Crypto is crashing due to contagion with the US$ value plummeting and its affect on the market, not the other way around.

While I completely understand the hate for Crypto, (especially as a gamer who does not mine or own any crypto) I don't let my emotions or hate get in the way of realising that it's probably the future of many things, and I don't totally hate that future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: noko
like this

LukeTbk

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
3,350
Also, I'm not sure how a crypto broker going bankrupt is different to a stock broker or bond fund going bankrupt. your assets are fucked either way. By the way, it seems more hedge funds are going bankrupt/closing down than crypto brokers at the moment (or its possible my news feed emphasises different stories, who knows)
That shound really strange to me, usually clients does not even feel if their stock broker got into bankruptcy (the new buyer cause not even interruption of service sometime) and in a bad case scenario for an American broker the first half a millions of security and 250K of cash is insured by the SIPC coverage:
https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/what-sipc-protects#:~:text=SIPC protects against the loss,a $250,000 limit for cash.

Client asset of a broker are not open to the creancier of said broker, I am not sure what you mean by the asset being fuck, do you have an example ?

Of does a bond fund going bankrupt fuck your asset ? I think mutuel bund company has a different company that hold the asset that the company that manage them, if the company fail the clients asset are in a different untouch company (not accessible to the creditors during the bankruptcy process), by law. Do you have an example ?

Reporting to the SEC is like showing your grades to your blind grandma. It's self-reported
I thought many of them were validated by independent auditor.

I mean, Fiat is based on a pinky-swear from the FED
That a bit of a reduction imo, a Fiat like the USD is based on the power of the American tax payers and American goverment police/state/judicial force to convince them to pay, that a incredibly giant concrete things, I am not sure how much it requires a competent FED has well, but the force put on it to be competant are also quite big.

but Crypto is at least not reliant on any central agency, and is an actual finite resource.
Now I will sound completely novice, but is it, does all the new crypto coin source on the same finite resource or are they not creating new resource with a finite or not possible amount of them ?


No more needing a bank.
When private bank were mostly in charge of money creation, it was quite a good era in the history of mankind too imo no (could be fully wrong here), but the system is a genius one, with quite a good alignment with incentive and good for society well aligned that was working quite well. I am not sure if/when you reach close to the limit of a crypto, if it really replaces flat how does terrible, terrible deflation does not occur.

Removing individual bank and employee decision to replace it by what could end up world Internet hockey-stick winner get all like distribution (like a Spotify versus local DJ) capital distribution is incredibly frightening has well, the track record on that shift is really not particularly good imo. Local bank/local branch loosing power to regional management of banks is already something that is disputable to have been good.
 
Last edited:

lopoetve

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
33,293
Not quite. Many large market-makers and funds hold crypto
As assets. Not as a regulated security broker. It's a distinction
I mean, Fiat is based on a pinky-swear from the FED, and I don't think we've seen the last of runaway inflation because of their printer. Neither is ideal, but Crypto is at least not reliant on any central agency, and is an actual finite resource.
Finite resource - as pinky swore by a dude in Topeka, and his pet dog, not-toto.
Reporting to the SEC is like showing your grades to your blind grandma. It's self-reported, and the consequences for billions of dollars of ill-gotten gains usually work out to be fines of a few hundred thousand to a few tens of millions, without ANY admission of wrongdoing. In other words, the SEC take their cut as a price of doing business. Funds and brokers are more afraid of other funds and brokers than the SEC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal Beg to differ. Minor consequences for minor violations, major consequences for major violations. Those folks went to jail and were banned from ever holding that type of office again. It's also audited,
Also, I'm not sure how a crypto broker going bankrupt is different to a stock broker or bond fund going bankrupt. your assets are fucked either way. By the way, it seems more hedge funds are going bankrupt/closing down than crypto brokers at the moment (or its possible my news feed emphasises different stories, who knows)



I think we've only seen the beginning of this downturn in both crypto and fiat. Remember, where there is money to be made: legal, logical, or legitimate don't matter. Money is money, and the finance industry will take it any way they can. money money money, and Crypto has been a great source of money for them. I can't think of one reason the international Ponzi scheme that is the financial sector wouldn't go whole-hog into something as lucrative as crypto.
Lack of regulation and extremely high risk, lack of future visibility to potential regulation, no inherent value - there's a multitude of reasons. The primary one, however, is that it serves the majority of it no purpose other than as speculative value - and speculation can go up, or go to absolute zero, since there is no inherent value to it as an item for trade, outside of guns and drugs.
Well, decentralising a currency frees it from the FED and other major players like banks. No more needing a bank. This also means that it can change hands between unsavory characters, yes. But the same with the US$.
Not having banks has proven to be a bad idea every time it has been attempted in the past, for good reason.
The US dollar is loaned to the people by the FED, and their policy on how and when they loan out or collect can mean literal life and death. you're seeing in REAL TIME how the very human choices of the FED and JPow can affect the world at large. Crypto is crashing due to contagion with the US$ value plummeting and its affect on the market, not the other way around.

While I completely understand the hate for Crypto, (especially as a gamer who does not mine or own any crypto) I don't let my emotions or hate get in the way of realising that it's probably the future of many things, and I don't totally hate that future.
I mean, yes - sorta. But we've tried fully unregulated markets - they don't work. Ever. As for the future - why? What can it do that I can't do with straight currency now?
That shound really strange to me, usually clients does not even feel if their stock broker got into bankruptcy (the new buyer cause not even interruption of service sometime) and in a bad case scenario for an American broker the first half a millions of security and 250K of cash is insured by the SIPC coverage:
https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/what-sipc-protects#:~:text=SIPC protects against the loss,a $250,000 limit for cash.
Yep. They serve to trade for you - you're protected. When Mt Gox went under, everyone who lost out was pretty much screwed.
Client asset of a broker are not open to the creancier of said broker, I am not sure what you mean by the asset being fuck, do you have an example ?

Of does a bond fund going bankrupt fuck your asset ? I think mutuel bund company has a different company that hold the asset that the company that manage them, if the company fail the clients asset are in a different untouch company (not accessible to the creditors during the bankruptcy process), by law. Do you have an example ?
If the fund breaks, then yes - you can lose money, but that's generally exceedingly rare - and depending on who's bonds they are, there's often recourse or a backstop to it (eg: US Government bonds, since we don't default on debt).
I thought many of them were validated by independent auditor.
Ayup. And the few times the auditors truly fuck up, they tend to cease to exist fast.
That a bit of a reduction imo, a Fiat like the USD is based on the power of the American tax payers and American goverment police/state/judicial force to convince them to pay, that a incredibly giant concrete things, I am not sure how much it requires a competent FED has well, but the force put on it to be competant are also quite big.


Now I will sound completely novice, but is it, does all the new crypto coin source on the same finite resource or are they not creating new resource with a finite or not possible amount of them ?
Fuzzy. And trust.
When private bank were mostly in charge of money creation, it was quite a good era in the history of mankind too imo no (could be fully wrong here)
Oh you're WAY wrong on that one (eg: the guilded age, the free banking age, etc - none of those worked out for your average common man). Central banks exist for a reason, and it's not just monetary policy. https://www.clevelandfed.org/en/new...0071201-a-brief-history-of-central-banks.aspx
, but the system is a genius one, with quite a good alignment with incentive and good for society well aligned that was working quite well. I am not sure if/when you reach close to the limit of a crypto, if it really replaces flat how does terrible, terrible deflation does not occur.

Removing individual bank and employee decision to replace it by what could end up world Internet hockey-stick winner get all like distribution (like a Spotify versus local DJ) capital distribution is incredibly frightening has well, the track record on that shift is really not particularly good imo. Local bank/local branch loosing power to regional management of banks is already something that is disputable to have been good.
What
 

LukeTbk

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
3,350
If the fund breaks, then yes - you can lose money, but that's generally exceedingly rare - and depending on who's bonds they are, there's often recourse or a backstop to it (eg: US Government bonds, since we don't default on debt).
What fund breaks mean ? The company handling the fund, why would you loose money ?

Why which bond in the actual fund matter ? Maybe it is some lingo I am missing, are people talk about the entity that emitted the bond goes bankrupt (than yes the bond values can obviously and should obviously go down) but that a completely different conversation.

Oh you're WAY wrong on that one (eg: the guilded age, the free banking age, etc - none of those worked out for your average common man). Central banks exist for a reason, and it's not just monetary policy.
I was talking reform after the terrible 70s-80s inflation, i.e. mid 80s to now, central banks became way more independent. Did private banks in charge of money creation via loan like today back in 1880 usa ? I thought they were still on the gold standard, almost an 180 opposite.

The current system in place since the governement step out a little bit:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/france...-money-tree-is-not-cost-free/?sh=2978e333073e
https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/27-4-how-banks-create-money/

Is a really good one imo, it tie an incentive (making profit) into allocating capital into profitable endavours at the same times that creating money that follow the numbers of good&services that exists, you loan to someone that build an house that keep is value or start a company that succeed, money is created at the same time that there is more value in the country, loan to an housing project that fail or a company that fail not able to pay interest on the loan, no money created.

About the deflation, there is a lot of crypto enthusiast that seem happy when they rise in traded valuation, which is nice if they tried to be an pure side asset storage a la gold but more pratical, but there is a tension with them wanting to be day to day used as well, that I am not sure if would ever succeed and be a good idea to ever succeed, having people keeping thigh on their money when there is a sign of economic challenge (like it happened in 1929) just seem a really bad idea collectively, even if it would be a good decision for the individual making it at the time.

Has for the hockey stick distribution comments, 90% of youtube vidoes have less than 1,000 views, almost all song on spotify less than 100 views and 90% of streams goes to the 1%, decentralisation and shifting to a purely online mono player format seem to very often create a winner take all phenomenom, removing traditionnal bankers/banks, by everyone doing it themselve following the latest FOMO trending stuff and I feel we risk to see the same happening with capital. Currently, people in a very disproportional way invest regionally and that not necessarily a bad thing to mass down the distribution. We seem to go to the top 20% get 80% of the stuff to a top 1% get 90% of the stuff.
 

MooCow

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 13, 2000
Messages
7,815
More like somebody thought they'd become bored apes once they got to the top, lol.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
11,797
I am resurrecting this thread since the absolutely massive ponzi scheme of crypto and NFT markets has all but collapsed at this point, and much of which has come to public light.

blade52x, to quote your post from March 23, 2022:
You'll hate your own ignorance reading back on this in a few years, that's all I can say.

and again from June 14, 2022:
I'm glad you didn't invest in NFTs to have crashed in value. I've also never suggested anyone invest in any NFTs, in this thread, or any where on this forum, ever.

My statement of ignorance refers to the short sighted view, narrow-minded thinking, or just trying to be a part of the mob to cope on what's already missed as the reasons why you'll miss out on yet more opportunities to come. But hey, cheerlead on just like you all did in 2014, 2018, and now in 2022. That's worked out well.

You can keep doing what's worked for you, while I'll keep looking into what uniquely identifiable bytes of information stored on a blockchain (and not just any, but one that's validated and secured by thousands of nodes) might actually be useful for and whether or not challenges presented by blockchain prohibit those use cases. As I've already stated the JPEG use case is stupid, but it did prove a more general use case for the NFT - not just ownership but one that's easily transferable to other users. And while others may argue other tech that can do the same thing exists - the open p2p networks that run on top of that tech don't.

Also including a post by NickJames from May 23, 2022:
I love coming here and seeing all the boomer talk about NFTs and crypto. You guys better jump on before you get left behind in the next few years. Easy money to be made here as someone who's been on the internet since a kid in the mid 90's, you're in for a revolution.

Also Gamestop just launched their wallets. https://wallet.gamestop.com/wallets

Sadly, both of your posts and borderline-propaganda on said crypto and NFT usage have continued to not age well.
Everything single thing that I and everyone else countered you both on about crypto and NFTs being nothing more than a massive ponzi scheme has come true.

Re-reading each of your posts shows that you each absolutely advocated for crypto, and more specifically NFTs, both of which have done nothing but hurt financially poor and downtrodden individuals desperate to make a living beyond anyone else to support their families, especially in 3rd world nation states.
Cryptocurrency (including NFTs) has lead to a massive loss in people's lives via suicide, financial destruction, bankruptcy, imprisonment, inescapable dept, etc.

To this day, as of January 17, 2023, there is still no true use-case scenario for NFTs outside of the very illegal, unethical, and morally bankrupt ponzi schemes which have taken place, and which NFTs have been built around.



From a YouTube comment under that video:
I'm sick of people bashing the obvious utility of NFTs. The ease with which I can look at a person's profile, see their involvement with NFTs, and then identify them as a blood sucking sociopath is revolutionary.


I would suggest everyone take a quick read through the very first Bitcoin thread on here, from March 2011.
There is extreme irony of so many individuals in that thread trying to justify the then-new cryptocurrency as some fix-all for something that was never needed in the first place.

Here we are, nearly 12 years later, and as proven in the video above there is no true justification for cryptocurrency aside from said ponzi schemes which have destroyed so many lives by corrupt investors, influencers, Hollywood actors and actresses, and politicians - many of whom have since been prosecuted and are now in prison, or have died in prison.

The penultimate post in that thread, posted by HohnyF on March 23, 2011:
oh God...

another Ponzi

ask me via pm if you don't understand how this "works"



As for Square-Enix and their NFT propaganda, it isn't going so well:
One year after releasing a letter that was roundly mocked for being focused on web3, the blockchain and NFTs, Square Enix president Yosuke Matsuda has once again released a New Year’s letter…focused on web3, the blockchain and NFTs.

It’s a baffling sign that despite the industry roundly rejecting the concept of NFTs throughout the past two years, causing even early evangelists like Ubisoft and EA to flee from the concept, Square Enix stands alone in still trying to make this happen.

To be clear, Matsuda’s NFT references are not just passing asides, in this letter, they make up almost half of the entire thing. The 1525 word letter has 655 words devoted to web3 and NFTs, with Matsuda waving away the collapse of the NFT market this past year by calling it “volatility.”
Ah yes, "volatility", totally not a scam that doesn't work except for those at the top of the ponzi scheme.
Also from the article:
In the wider NFT game space, we saw the utter collapse of the game that was held up as a paragon of the potential of web3 gaming, Axie Infinity. Square Enix is living in a fantasy world where none of this seems to have happened, and believes it’s definitely a great idea to throw lots of money down this hole while selling off studios like Eidos and Crystal Dynamics which made actual video games.
Considering Matsuda just sold off multiple productive studios, he had better pray that this NFT scam works out for Square-Enix in the short-term, otherwise he knows it will be his ass on the chopping block when the board of directors come knocking.
 
Last edited:

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
Re-reading each of your posts shows that you each absolutely advocated for crypto, and more specifically NFTs, both of which have done nothing but hurt financially poor and downtrodden individuals desperate to make a living beyond anyone else to support their families, especially in 3rd world nation states.
Cryptocurrency (including NFTs) has lead to a massive loss in people's lives via suicide, financial destruction, bankruptcy, imprisonment, inescapable dept, etc.

I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but as a fool who has lost money myself, let's not completely absolve fools for handing over their own money and losing it, themselves.

Personal responsibility is a powerful tool.
 

lopoetve

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
33,293
Heh
 

Attachments

  • 1FCCFA38-F50B-4DBF-8C9B-BE873EF50951.jpeg
    1FCCFA38-F50B-4DBF-8C9B-BE873EF50951.jpeg
    98 KB · Views: 0

blade52x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
3,183
I am resurrecting this thread since the absolutely massive ponzi scheme of crypto and NFT markets has all but collapsed at this point, and much of which has come to public light.

So you quoted a post I made where I said "in a few years", within less than a year?! Is that some kind of response to Bitcoin being back above $20K despite what all you crypto haters were so sure would finally destroy it? "This time is different" - works both ways. ;)

I've been developing in Solidity full-time for about ~8 months now. Easy code but very difficult deployment process. You need high end talent (or those already earning $200K+ in FAANG-like jobs), and code scrutiny (due to immutability) to the point I've never experienced in my professional career. You can mitigate the immutability part to an extent, but it costs more in deployment and running fees. And you know what? It's the most fun I've had in programming possibly... ever. But it doesn't surprise me anything takes long in this space - I've deployed contracts and torn them down twice now (about a $3000 hit) because of bugs I found afterward during a more rigorous testing phase. It's not an easy space to enter. If it is, then your niche is already super saturated (i.e., generative NFTs).

(Ethereum minimum daily fees)
3-5 GWEI back in August
7-9 GWEI back in November
11-13 GWEI now

Oh look something's happening... it's slowly coming back. Whether you want it to or not.

And no, I don't feel any moral responsibility for what others do with their money. Just like I don't follow advice on /r/wsb, /r/stocks, and even places like /r/shroomstocks because I have no idea WTF is going on. My response in saying what I said, is a response to the other extreme of the spectrum: because you are so sure crypto will fail. It's the atheist to the theist, or vice-versa.

You want moral responsibility? How about all of those that missed out on life changing gains because they read and listened to yours and others similar "mob mentality advice" over the past decade? It's not exactly my fault that most people on the fence don't jump in until the new paradigm phase of a cycle. If you see me advocating for crypto, it's more often than not: during winter cycles - like in the past year. Meanwhile you and everyone... do the literal opposite and then, "oh I bought a $100 position at $55K for the lolz because it's finally cool to do it again".
 
Last edited:

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
35,420
You want moral responsibility? How about all of those that missed out on life changing gains because they read and listened to yours and others similar "mob mentality advice" over the past decade? It's not exactly my fault that most people on the fence don't jump in until the new paradigm phase of a cycle. If you see me advocating for crypto, it's more often than not: during winter cycles - like in the past year. Meanwhile you and everyone... do the literal opposite and then, "oh I bought a $100 position at $55K for the lolz because it's finally cool to do it again". Come on.

They only had life changing gains because they scammed investors who bought it out of FOMO before it crashed.

The whole lot of them, anyone who has ever mined or sold Crypto should be serving time in federal pound-me-up-the-ass prison for fraud.

Except maybe the #HODL crowd who somehow succeded in believing their own scam and are both vitims and perpetrators all in one.

Crypto has no intrinsic value, and in the end, when all the dust settles, that's where it will remain. Some of the underlying cryptography technology involved in the blockchain has value, but no coin nor NFT does. They are just scammy get rich quick schemes.

You are creating something that is worthless, that you know is worthless, then hyping it in order to trick unsophisticated buyers into buying in, taking their money, and then it crashes. This is straight up fraud. All crypto has done is to democratize the ability to be a dollar store vaping Bernie Madoff.

I have no doubt that you are partially right. This bullshit will likely get worse before it gets better, before the SEC gets their shit together and starts regulating the crap out of the market (which will essentially kill it) and come back again before it is finally put to pasture, but 20 years from now I guarantee the world will look back at this time as one of wild west pretend money full of snake oil salesman and other scammers.
 
Last edited:

blade52x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
3,183
full of snake oil salesman and other scammers.

Some of the underlying cryptography technology involved in the blockchain has value, but no coin nor NFT does. They are just scammy get rich quick schemes.

I played MMORPGs 2 decades ago and got a glimpse of what the crypto markets would be like: any unregulated markets are going to have plenty of that. Actually, scratch that: /r/wsb proves the same thing happens in regulated markets.

It's no one's responsibility but your own, with what you do with your money. And you and everyone keep talking about how so many people lost money when Bitcoin, even after last year's insanity, is still higher than it has been for 90% of its life. But again, why are we always scapegoating crypto - go look at AMD, NVDA, AMZN, TSLA, NFLX, GME, OTC weed stocks, and so many other REGULATED venues people have also lost so much money on. A gambler is going to find a way to get their fix with or without crypto.

I don't really have any more time to waste on this - I need to go back to building my app, that in your words (not mine): is worthless.
 
Last edited:

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
They only had life changing gains because they scammed investors who bought it out of FOMO before it crashed.

The whole lot of them, anyone who has ever mined or sold Crypto should be serving time in federal pound-me-up-the-ass prison for fraud.

Except maybe the #HODL crowd who somehow succeded in believing their own scam and are both vitims and perpetrators all in one.

Crypto has no intrinsic value, and in the end, when all the dust settles, that's where it will remain. Some of the underlying cryptography technology involved in the blockchain has value, but no coin nor NFT does. They are just scammy get rich quick schemes.

You are creating something that is worthless, that you know is worthless, then hyping it in order to trick unsophisticated buyers into buying in, taking their money, and then it crashes. This is straight up fraud. All crypto has done is to democratize the ability to be a dollar store vaping Bernie Madoff.

I have no doubt that you are partially right. This bullshit will likely get worse before it gets better, before the SEC gets their shit together and starts regulating the crap out of the market (which will essentially kill it) and come back again before it is finally put to pasture, but 20 years from now I guarantee the world will look back at this time as one of wild west pretend money full of snake oil salesman and other scammers.

ok but actual money and actual gold hold no real value either

edit: or is the shiny rock you can't eat, can't drink, and is too soft to make munitions from, any different than the dream of crypto when you're trying to trade it for actual food? the entire 'actual' monetary system is based off the idea "that rock looks pretty", literally. also just as stupid.

double edit: the real monetary system is whatever military backs up whatever currency
 

NightReaver

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,091
ok but actual money and actual gold hold no real value either

edit: or is the shiny rock you can't eat, can't drink, and is too soft to make munitions from, any different than the dream of crypto when you're trying to trade it for actual food? the entire 'actual' monetary system is based off the idea "that rock looks pretty", literally. also just as stupid.

double edit: the real monetary system is whatever military backs up whatever currency
I mean gold has actual industrial uses.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
35,420
ok but actual money and actual gold hold no real value either

edit: or is the shiny rock you can't eat, can't drink, and is too soft to make munitions from, any different than the dream of crypto when you're trying to trade it for actual food? the entire 'actual' monetary system is based off the idea "that rock looks pretty", literally. also just as stupid.

double edit: the real monetary system is whatever military backs up whatever currency

The reason a real currency has value is precisely because it is backed by a government, and precisely because it is governed by a central bank.

Without those two, any currency is useless and not worth the paper it is printed on.
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
11,797
ok but actual money and actual gold hold no real value either

edit: or is the shiny rock you can't eat, can't drink, and is too soft to make munitions from, any different than the dream of crypto when you're trying to trade it for actual food? the entire 'actual' monetary system is based off the idea "that rock looks pretty", literally. also just as stupid.

double edit: the real monetary system is whatever military backs up whatever currency
Actually, gold has quite a few uses outside of monetary trading.
Gold is highly malleable, and has many uses in electronics and technology, dentistry, medicine, aerospace, etc.

Pre-20th century I would fully agree with you.
Within the last 100+ years gold has quite a few uses that make it a very valuable and useful alloy for a large array of applications, thus giving it more than just intrinsic and aesthetic value.


You want moral responsibility? How about all of those that missed out on life changing gains because they read and listened to yours and others similar "mob mentality advice" over the past decade? It's not exactly my fault that most people on the fence don't jump in until the new paradigm phase of a cycle. If you see me advocating for crypto, it's more often than not: during winter cycles - like in the past year. Meanwhile you and everyone... do the literal opposite and then, "oh I bought a $100 position at $55K for the lolz because it's finally cool to do it again".
And there it is, the patented "you're just jealous you didn't get in early" bullshit excuse.
Yes, many missed out on "life changing gains" - but what gains are those, gains in wealth or gains in poverty?

Those who get in early are said early investors who normally do make out with a positive net gain in ponzi schemes, but those who get in too late are boned, which is why ponzi schemes are illegal and beyond unethical.
At a minimum, I am glad you are having fun programming in your field, I wouldn't ever want that to be taken from you.
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
35,420
eh that's part of the illusion you sell yourself on, just like crypto bros
The proof is in the pudding.

One of the two is relatively stable. Even the inflation we have had over the last couple of years is a footnote compared to the volatility in crypto markets.

Currencies can't be that volatile. It renders them useless as currencies. In the end, if cryptocurrencies don't become currencies, what value do they have? As just a collectible token?

Complaining about 6.5% inflation in a year seems kind of silly when compared to the over 60% losses the crypto market has seen in the same timeframe.

it is true that to a certain extent any currency derives its value from the belief its users have in it, but having government and central bank backing helps stabilize and make the currency real.

For crypto you have a very small percentage of the population in Cryto-bro's who are true believers. Then there are some who get into it out of FOMO. Overall the rest of the population doesn't have faith in crypto. They may view it as a gamble, but that's about it. And that's why no cryptocurrency can become an actual stable currency.

They are all doomed to eventual failure because their backers are neither governments, nor central banks, or even economists or bankers. They are just some vaping dude-bro inspired by shadowy online figures with pipe-dreams of becoming rich fast.

These are classic confidence men just dropped into our modern era, and while they can fool some, they can't fool all.
 

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
Actually, gold has quite a few uses outside of monetary trading.
Gold is highly malleable, and has many uses in electronics and technology, dentistry, medicine, aerospace, etc.

Pre-20th century I would fully agree with you.
Within the last 100+ years gold has quite a few uses that make it a very valuable and useful alloy for a large array of applications, thus giving it more than just intrinsic and aesthetic value.

but the entire monetary system itself was built on a lie

finding uses for gold afterward, that weren't 1:1 with the worth or excuse being sold originally, still makes the system built on a lie

but having government and central bank military backing helps stabilize and make the currency real.

☝️ it only 'works' because it's forced to, by gunpoint
 

Zarathustra[H]

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 29, 2000
Messages
35,420
but the entire monetary system itself was built on a lie

finding uses for gold afterward, that weren't 1:1 with the worth or excuse being sold originally, still makes the system built on a lie


Even back when most nations were on the gold standard (which was profoundly stupid, by the way) there was still a government behind it backing it and guaranteeing its value, promising to take actions necessary to protect the currency, and having the authority and the power to do so.

A currency backed by a government can still fail, but usually it is because the government itself is failing and unable to take the actions necessary to protect the currency. There is a temptation among poorer nations to just print money in order to pay for things, which in turn leads to hyperinflation. There are appropriate times to increase money supply, but they also need to be balanced with appropriate times to reduce money supply as part of monetary policy to manage the economy and protect the currency. It is important that these follow actual economic fundamentals and not the desire to spend more money. If you can't trust your government to do this right, then confidence in the currency will be lower.

Luckily here in the U.S. we have a mostly politically independent central bank in the Fed, which is one of the many reasons why there is more confidence in the U.S. dollar than any other currency in the world.

Certainly there are those who have their concerns when it comes to government competence in doing such things, but the contrast here is that a government backed currency has the entire regulatory and power structure of a nation to back it up, whereas crypto has just the hopes and wishes of crypto-bros to back it up.

There is a reason the U.S. Dollar is the reserve currency of the world, because there is confidence in the world that the U.S. government will do what it takes to back up and protect its currency. Not to make this thread political, but lets hope that survives this year, as we are due for a nasty debt ceiling fight, and if it leads to government shutdowns and defaults, we could really shoot ourselves in the foot.
 

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
but the contrast here is that a government backed currency has the entire regulatory and power structure of a nation to back it up, whereas crypto has just the hopes and wishes of crypto-bros to back it up.


right, which is the exact point I'm making too

so obviously, you (or society as a whole) are going to accept the 'actual value system of none' being pushed upon you by those with tanks and power vs a stoned econ 101 student trying to get you to buy into his 'actual value system of none' new coin
 

blade52x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
3,183
Those who get in early are said early investors who normally do make out with a positive net gain in ponzi schemes, but those who get in too late are boned, which is why ponzi schemes are illegal and beyond unethical.

Because fundamentally they are not ponzi schemes.

The ponzi scheme argument is fully, and I mean fully, countered by the fact that you need the native token to pay for any transaction on the network. Let's take Ethereum for example: I send you Ethereum (or since you hate volatility, I will send you USDC instead) to pay for a GPU you're selling me: a tiny amount of Ethereum is necessary for:
  1. Paying node validators to do some computations (work) to verify the transaction is legitimate
  2. Fee burning
That means there are underlying forces or mechanisms that provide positive upward force **without having to do anything with the next person buying in**. This means there could no more buyers of Ethereum, yet the price could still rise if everyone on the network suddenly needs (or just wants) to use it more (for whatever reasons).

The only thing that matters is this: does anyone have any use for any crypto? Take it even further: any non-illicit use? Believe it or not - even though you have none - there are millions that do. From simple sending of transactions, storing wealth in a safe place, to playing games (for fun) that use blockchains to process and store data.

I'm going to use the word literally again - that literally, cannot be defined as a ponzi scheme. When you really think about the above - Ethereum is a product and a service. One that we don't know how to precisely value in dollars yet. No one can fairly justify Ethereum being $1500 or Bitcoin being $20K (or any price) because we don't have the century worth of data the stock market has, let alone know how to weigh completely new parameters regarding network usage that could be fed to a ML algorithm. But maybe we soon will be able to - after all we are more than a decade into this now. Although anyone who works in the field of data and ML knows nothing data science related is as anywhere near as simple as it seems on paper.

All of this doesn't mean 99% of cryptos, or activity that happens on Ethereum aren't ponzi schemes. Because they don't all aim to be Bitcoin or Ethereum - networks that are intended to be used. Many are premeditated to get people to buy in and leave them holding the bag. But you can't generalize those to Bitcoin, Ethereum, and a few other legitimate networks making up over 70% of the the crypto market cap (a figure that is still too small imo, but nevertheless still dominant).
 

Red Falcon

[H]F Junkie
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
11,797
Because fundamentally they are not ponzi schemes.

The ponzi scheme argument is fully, and I mean fully, countered by the fact that you need the native token to pay for any transaction on the network. Let's take Ethereum for example: I send you Ethereum (or since you hate volatility, I will send you USDC instead) to pay for a GPU you're selling me: a tiny amount of Ethereum is necessary for:
  1. Paying node validators to do some computations (work) to verify the transaction is legitimate
  2. Fee burning
That's great, something that credit cards already do and is completely redundant.

That means there are underlying forces or mechanisms that provide positive upward force **without having to do anything with the next person buying in**. This means there could no more buyers of Ethereum, yet the price could still rise if everyone on the network suddenly needs (or just wants) to use it more (for whatever reasons).
The video I posted breaks down why this is a completely useless form of transaction, and even worse monetary tool.

The only thing that matters is this: does anyone have any use for any crypto? Take it even further: any non-illicit use? Believe it or not - even though you have none - there are millions that do. From simple sending of transactions, storing wealth in a safe place, to playing games (for fun) that use blockchains to process and store data.
Yeah, as stated in the video those "games" all went bust and lost 99% of their overall value from when they first started.
Oh, and not to mention the countless lives they destroyed by said mentioned financial ruin - try again.

I'm going to use the word literally again - that literally, cannot be defined as a ponzi scheme. When you really think about the above - Ethereum is a product and a service. One that we don't know how to precisely value in dollars yet. No one can fairly justify Ethereum being $1500 or Bitcoin being $20K (or any price) because we don't have the century worth of data the stock market has, let alone know how to weigh completely new parameters regarding network usage that could be fed to a ML algorithm. But maybe we soon will be able to - after all we are more than a decade into this now. Although anyone who works in the field of data and ML knows nothing data science related is as anywhere near as simple as it seems on paper.
So Etherium is a product and service, that even though it has been around since at least 2015, still cannot be known how to precisely value in dollars, or any currency for that matter... wow.
This again is borderline-propaganda, and peddling a muddled "product" with an even more muddled worth.

You are a programmer in the heart of this and yet can barely explain any use-cases for any of this, yet continue to tout how much value crypto and NFTs have, despite stating that the value cannot be known at this time.
Take a step back and look at what you are writing, and arguing.

If the term ponzi scheme doesn't apply for this, then the terms scam and bullshit certainly do apply.

All of this doesn't mean 99% of cryptos, or activity that happens on Ethereum aren't ponzi schemes. Because they don't all aim to be Bitcoin or Ethereum - networks that are intended to be used. Many are premeditated to get people to buy in and leave them holding the bag. But you can't generalize those to Bitcoin, Ethereum, and a few other legitimate networks making up over 70% of the the crypto market cap (a figure that is still too small imo, but nevertheless still dominant).
Perhaps the technologies and topologies themselves used by and surrounding cryptocurrencies and NFTs are not ponzi schemes and scams themselves, but the said cryptocurrencies and NFTs that they structure and support most certainly are.
Pro tip: regardless of crypto coin/platform and NFT type, they are all the same with nothing lower than 100% ponzi schemes in the end, and have been since their inception.


A true believer's mind must be really busy grinding those gears...wow
The mental gymnastics on this would definitely win the gold.
 
Last edited:

blade52x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
3,183
So Etherium is a product and service, that even though it has been around since at least 2015, still cannot be known how to precisely value in dollars, or any currency for that matter... wow.

Look, by the time that gets figured out - Ethereum will likely either be $0 or some value far exceeding today's and far less volatile. If you don't want to gamble or speculate before then, that's fine and I can respect that. But don't act surprised like "it's expected" we should able to predict Ethereum's fair value when for 7 years of its life, its been 2 years of noise followed by periods with large temporal biases. Not to mention entirely new input parameters, both known and some even yet to be discovered.

Even in traditional markets with a century worth of data, we have models that break down time and time again. You're asking for something precise using a fraction of the time, and with entirely new input data. And if someone somehow did figure it out, they'd be one of the biggest fools in the history of humanity to release it any time soon.

You want to call it bullshit because it has no use to you, or because its far to speculative, or because it is an unregulated tool that does make it easier to scam others, fine. But one can at least draw the line there between a valid opinion, versus some counter-bullshit: i.e., ponzi scheme, criminals only use it, etc arguments.
 
Last edited:

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
Also just to add, even though 'the only true monetary system' is bartering, "I'll trade you some grain and fur for those cows" etc, that obviously doesn't work at scale with how society has grown - you need a token currency - where are people in apartments going to store their 5 cows? I understand that. I'm not advocating for abolition of money. It's a necessary lie/evil/neutral aspect of society.

My main gripe is keeping up the lie of dollar = value because gold = value, even if that was the lie needed at the time to make the system work, because back then people loved their shiny rocks (and they used force to gain and keep these shiny rocks, i.e., backed by 'military' actually IMO still, even before America or before the industrial revolution or before even Rome)

Moving off the gold standard to "this one thing is worth one of itself because we say so" is a much more appropriate lie for the times, than the above is IMO

Complaints of moving off the gold standard and how it destabilizes and destroys worth, are really just complaining about crypto vs dollar, but in a dollar vs dollar argument, and it distills down more to "your lie will ruin my lie, stop please"

Which is why I see crypto and the dollar as the same, in that both can be a token just as well, neither is of any actual worth
 

LukeTbk

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
3,350
The reason a real currency has value is precisely because it is backed by a government, and precisely because it is governed by a central bank.

Without those two, any currency is useless and not worth the paper it is printed on.
I feel it is much more, government ability to rise and enforce taxation.

The USA for example, charge people for over 4 trillions a year from the federal governement alone and that federal governement usually force people to pay them back in USD, that automatically create an known and previsible giant demand for USD.

And once you have that giant base demand, everyone on earth got confident they can be sure someone else will want their USD (anyone that has tax to pay), which create a virtuous circle of demand. Central bank is not necessarily needed.

Also just to add, even though 'the only true monetary system' is bartering, "I'll trade you some grain and fur for those cows" etc, that obviously doesn't work at scale with how society has grown - you need a token currency - where are people in apartments going to store their 5 cows? I understand that. I'm not advocating for abolition of money. It's a necessary lie/evil/neutral aspect of society.
direct barterning between people that knew each other was quite rare, societies of the past were extremely debt based.
 

staknhalo

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
3,647
direct barterning between people that knew each other was quite rare, societies of the past were extremely debt based.

i don't doubt that, just meant once you leave the barter system, everything becomes more 'abstract/not true', and just 'symbolism of' (and again, not advocating for going back to the barter system, the species and the societies we created outgrew all that via sheer size/scale long long ago)
 

LukeTbk

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
3,350
i don't doubt that, just meant once you leave the barter system, everything becomes more 'abstract/not true', and just 'symbolism of' (and again, not advocating for going back to the barter system, the species and the societies we created outgrew all that via sheer size/scale long long ago)
Yes and what got used over time has symbol is quite something, would not be surprise if we leave in one of the less abstract, less debt based society era ever in the western world with solid money, which is somewhat ironic.

The web of debt of the debt prison England era (when worker often had to buy their tools and had no money for that) was quite something. Now very often we pay for stuff, our grand-grand parents were putting it on their list that they would maybe pay at some point if the farming-fishing-etc.. season was good.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
6,548
I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but as a fool who has lost money myself, let's not completely absolve fools for handing over their own money and losing it, themselves.

Personal responsibility is a powerful tool.
The problem with this is that it's perfectly legal to trick idiots. It's because crypto in general has an extremely grey area of value, because it's hard to legally put into practice that a scam has occurred. Might even fall under unlawful enrichment. Look at the whole situation with Logan Paul and his NFT project and how so many people lost money. Sure, there's a lot of idiots who followed a guy who went to Japan to find dead bodies hanging from a tree, but that doesn't mean Logan Paul shouldn't pay them back and be fined heavily for this.

 
Top