TSMC to prioritize production of chips for cars, not your next graphics card

Harvestor

Limp Gawd
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Ill stick to my dumb vehicles that i can repair myself with cheap parts. New trucks are just insanely priced with way to much stuff i dont need or want.

A truck should be a work vehicle not a rolling entertainment center
 

Darunion

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Ill stick to my dumb vehicles that i can repair myself with cheap parts. New trucks are just insanely priced with way to much stuff i dont need or want.

A truck should be a work vehicle not a rolling entertainment center
And a PC should only be used for work, not playing video games :p

I dunno, i am a fan of not having to go out and lock the wheels for 4wd and can lock or unlock my rear diff as needed.

Even newer stuff when I have had to work on them really isnt hard.
 

drutman

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applegrcoug

Limp Gawd
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Also funny how people on a tech forum are so against tech in their cars.
Not me....I have adaptive cruise control. I wouldn't get another car without it.

The backup cameras, and sensors and lane departure and stuff are kinda, ehhh. The backup proximity sensor I actually find a bit annoying as it beeps too soon like I'm going to hit something 10ft away. ACC is soooo nice on some of my normal 60 mile drivers. And those lane centering systems like super cruise and what not look pretty cool.

The collision sensor though, is totallly unnecessary. I have a wife that lets me know I may hit something way before that thing goes off.
 

learners permit

[H]ard|Gawd
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Right? we used to put big box cd changers and pc's in our cars for music. Hell i never had a factory radio for more than a month after buying something. Now it seems people are ready to give up power steering because its too techy
Google Ford electronic power steering problems and you may rethink your statement.
 

madpistol

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Also funny how people on a tech forum are so against tech in their cars.
Yea, I don't understand that. My car has a 360 degree camera system, self-parking, the ability to stop the car from hitting things, about 6 different navigation apps, 5 different drive modes, the ability to turn the engine off and coast at speed, etc.

I absolutely love tech in cars.
 

learners permit

[H]ard|Gawd
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When the repair bills start coming in that'll change your mind trust me I deal with customers and their hi tech crap cars all the time. Their first question is always the same. Why so much money. My reply is I didn't buy it design it build it or break it and I don't set the price of replacement parts. Sorry.
 

applegrcoug

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Yea, I don't understand that. My car has a 360 degree camera system, self-parking, the ability to stop the car from hitting things, about 6 different navigation apps, 5 different drive modes, the ability to turn the engine off and coast at speed, etc.

I absolutely love tech in cars.
Yeah navigation has changed things big time. Not just onboard, but also on the phones. I'm a gen-Xer and can remember the days before on board navigation and garmin before that. I can remember using a map on those long trips.

My mother had the wonderful ability to always get lost. I got to be the map reader and she never used my directions and we still got lost.
 

vegeta535

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When the repair bills start coming in that'll change your mind trust me I deal with customers and their hi tech crap cars all the time. Their first question is always the same. Why so much money. My reply is I didn't buy it design it build it or break it and I don't set the price of replacement parts. Sorry.
It is why people replace their cars every 2-3 years! Get rid of it before problems arise when the car is out of warranty.
 

Comixbooks

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I just bought my first new car this year a Hyundai Kona 2022 there is so many bells and whistles in the mini SUV.
I enjoy the SUV much more than a stupid computer chip which it's basically based off. I noticed the Price Sticker said all the parts
were from Korea so maybe it has a Samsung chip in it?
 

Endgame

Gawd
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When the repair bills start coming in that'll change your mind trust me I deal with customers and their hi tech crap cars all the time. Their first question is always the same. Why so much money. My reply is I didn't buy it design it build it or break it and I don't set the price of replacement parts. Sorry.
A mechanic will find a way to rake you over the coals regardless of tech. Each car I’ve bought has more tech, but also thankfully less total repair cost. The 90ish Plymouth Acclaim was total junk and cost tons in repairs. The 99 and 03 Taurus were better, until they both hit eventual transmission issues. The 12 Focus has cost me next to nothing beyond maintenance. I expect my first electric car won’t even cost me as much in maintenance, let alone repair.
 

Darunion

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Google Ford electronic power steering problems and you may rethink your statement.
Mass produced items have defects, even a 0.1% problem can be tens of thousands of failures. Thankfully electronic issues are easier for me to troubleshoot than mechanical ones. My 09 camry i traded in recently ran perfect with no issues for the 8years i had it. My 01 civic, holy crap was I at the mechanic a lot. Ignition problems and it was on its 4th set of struts in 60K miles, two different mechanics cuz at that point i suspected incompetence.

I tend to only keep a vehicle for 8-10 years so maybe i don't run into long term problems. I try to get rid of them before repair costs creep up on car payment cost.
 

learners permit

[H]ard|Gawd
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A mechanic will find a way to rake you over the coals regardless of tech. Each car I’ve bought has more tech, but also thankfully less total repair cost. The 90ish Plymouth Acclaim was total junk and cost tons in repairs. The 99 and 03 Taurus were better, until they both hit eventual transmission issues. The 12 Focus has cost me next to nothing beyond maintenance. I expect my first electric car won’t even cost me as much in maintenance, let alone repair.
You could always invest 100,000 dollars or so in tools and test equipment and learn to fix it yourself if that's how you feel about automotive techs.
 

Endgame

Gawd
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You could always invest 100,000 dollars or so in tools and test equipment and learn to fix it yourself if that's how you feel about automotive techs.
That’s not exactly the point. Why have a car where I’ll have an eventual $6000 bill to replace a transmission, when I can just buy a higher tech car that doesn’t even have a transmission?
 

madpistol

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It is why people replace their cars every 2-3 years! Get rid of it before problems arise when the car is out of warranty.
Yep. I love tech so much that I'm never satisfied with a car. Leasing is always the best option for me, especially since the car has a warranty during that time.
 

Smoblikat

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That’s not exactly the point. Why have a car where I’ll have an eventual $6000 bill to replace a transmission, when I can just buy a higher tech car that doesn’t even have a transmission?

Because you can buy another car with a working transmission for less than the $6000 it would have cost for whatever model car you have. Stop buying expensive cars, and you wont have expensive repair bills.
 

Endgame

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Because you can buy another car with a working transmission for less than the $6000 it would have cost for whatever model car you have. Stop buying expensive cars, and you wont have expensive repair bills.
Each of the fords mentioned were purchased used with around 30-40k miles, and all were certified pre owned. I certainly wouldn’t call a Taurus or Focus an expensive car either. The extra warranty was worth the extra cost when compared to the ongoing maintenance for something older / higher mileage, using the Acclaim (older with more miles at purchase) as the baseline.

In any case, my personal experience has been that more tech has yielded lower annual maintenance. It appears that all electric will continue this trend both by reducing annual maintenance and reducing potential points of failure. The real question: what yields the minimum TCO?
 

vegeta535

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Each of the fords mentioned were purchased used with around 30-40k miles, and all were certified pre owned. I certainly wouldn’t call a Taurus or Focus an expensive car either. The extra warranty was worth the extra cost when compared to the ongoing maintenance for something older / higher mileage, using the Acclaim (older with more miles at purchase) as the baseline.

In any case, my personal experience has been that more tech has yielded lower annual maintenance. It appears that all electric will continue this trend both by reducing annual maintenance and reducing potential points of failure. The real question: what yields the minimum TCO?
Might be so but repairs on electric cars when they out of warranty can be insane. Especially Tesla. They are not worth keeping once the warranty is up. The battery packs replacements alone can cost over $10k.
 

Smoblikat

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Each of the fords mentioned were purchased used with around 30-40k miles, and all were certified pre owned. I certainly wouldn’t call a Taurus or Focus an expensive car either. The extra warranty was worth the extra cost when compared to the ongoing maintenance for something older / higher mileage, using the Acclaim (older with more miles at purchase) as the baseline.

In any case, my personal experience has been that more tech has yielded lower annual maintenance. It appears that all electric will continue this trend both by reducing annual maintenance and reducing potential points of failure. The real question: what yields the minimum TCO?

Ill be honest and say I think we have different views on new vs used. A car with 40K miles is new to me, I think the lowest mileage car i have ever owned was 120K, and if by "certified pre-owned" you mean you went to a stealership to buy them, thats an additional cost I wont pay either. I only buy used cars from private sale, no warranty, and I only buy cars where I can reasonably remove the engine and trans myself, I can physically carry the short block of a subaru by hand.
 

GoodBoy

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The auto chip shortage is as much on auto manufacturers as anything. They gave up their fab time because they thought sales would slow due to covid. Turns out sales didn't slow for cars, nor for GPU's, nor for cellphones, nor for consoles...

The statement "we will prioritize chips for cars" is just lip service to appease anyone impacted by the chip shortage for cars. Within a few months, the auto manufacturers turn at the fabs will be coming around again anyway.
 

Lakados

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The auto chip shortage is as much on auto manufacturers as anything. They gave up their fab time because they thought sales would slow due to covid. Turns out sales didn't slow for cars, nor for GPU's, nor for cellphones, nor for consoles...

The statement "we will prioritize chips for cars" is just lip service to appease anyone impacted by the chip shortage for cars. Within a few months, the auto manufacturers turn at the fabs will be coming around again anyway.
No, it was a government mandate, the auto manufacturers lobbied put and had put pressure on the politicians who in turn put the screws to TSMC and a few others and told them straight up to find room for them in the production queues.
 

Endgame

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Ill be honest and say I think we have different views on new vs used. A car with 40K miles is new to me, I think the lowest mileage car i have ever owned was 120K, and if by "certified pre-owned" you mean you went to a stealership to buy them, thats an additional cost I wont pay either. I only buy used cars from private sale, no warranty, and I only buy cars where I can reasonably remove the engine and trans myself, I can physically carry the short block of a subaru by hand.
Sure, that works if you do all the work yourself - factor in the cost of a mechanic to do all the work and you would change your tune in a heartbeat. One upon a time, I had time to do that, but now I value my time more. I will do things myself that cost more 1.5x my hourly equivalent rate, or 2x for tasks I have no great interest in doing that take 3 hours or less. If it takes more than 3 hours in a row, I factor at 3x, as that virtually means blowing weekend time.
 

Nicklebon

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The real question: what yields the minimum TCO?

Basic math ... If you define TCO as total cost/time or total cost/miles then upfront cost is large contributor to TCO in the sort term. That said, as the denominator get larger it plays a MUCH larger role in TCO.
 

GoodBoy

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No, it was a government mandate, the auto manufacturers lobbied put and had put pressure on the politicians who in turn put the screws to TSMC and a few others and told them straight up to find room for them in the production queues.
I know about biden's executive order. Which I think was also "for show". It's a foreign owned company with it's own contracts... we don't have the legal authority to force them to do anything, or to break their existing contracts..

"But they are building plants in the USA" yes, and they are not built yet. Putting any kind of pressure that would curtail those fabs from being completed, would only hurt our own interest.

Those points made, most of the chips used by cars can be made on older fabs. And if those are made on fabs here in the USA then I am sure some sort of pressure has already produced results. The couple of chips that require newest fabs, like AI in self driving, are all that should still be impacted. But again, we rely on them more than they need us... i.e. all of the 'Proclamations' are simply to appease the public, and make a good show for those making said proclamations. Political theater.
 

Lakados

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I know about biden's executive order. Which I think was also "for show". It's a foreign owned company with it's own contracts... we don't have the legal authority to force them to do anything, or to break their existing contracts..

"But they are building plants in the USA" yes, and they are not built yet. Putting any kind of pressure that would curtail those fabs from being completed, would only hurt our own interest.

Those points made, most of the chips used by cars can be made on older fabs. And if those are made on fabs here in the USA then I am sure some sort of pressure has already produced results. The couple of chips that require newest fabs, like AI in self driving, are all that should still be impacted. But again, we rely on them more than they need us... i.e. all of the 'Proclamations' are simply to appease the public, and make a good show for those making said proclamations. Political theater.
Here is a different article that makes it pretty clear what happened.

The Vice Minister of Economic Affairs of the Republic of China one Minister Wang Mei-hua, had a personal meeting with TMSC's executive board and told them to prioritize vehicle chip production.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/25/tai...c-will-prioritize-auto-chips-if-possible.html
 

sfsuphysics

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Not me....I have adaptive cruise control. I wouldn't get another car without it.

The backup cameras, and sensors and lane departure and stuff are kinda, ehhh. The backup proximity sensor I actually find a bit annoying as it beeps too soon like I'm going to hit something 10ft away. ACC is soooo nice on some of my normal 60 mile drivers. And those lane centering systems like super cruise and what not look pretty cool.

The collision sensor though, is totallly unnecessary. I have a wife that lets me know I may hit something way before that thing goes off.
See I don't care about cruise control, because I don't normally drive in such a situation that requires it. However living in an urban environment, the backup cameras and sensors make parallel parking in the smallest of spaces an absolute breeze with no sweaty palms at all. I've had a backup camera on my car since 2006 and that is a requirement for me on out, my wife's 2017 had the "radar" around it and while I didn't think it was useful it definitely works wonders and also will be a standard feature on my next car.
 

Darunion

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See I don't care about cruise control, because I don't normally drive in such a situation that requires it. However living in an urban environment, the backup cameras and sensors make parallel parking in the smallest of spaces an absolute breeze with no sweaty palms at all. I've had a backup camera on my car since 2006 and that is a requirement for me on out, my wife's 2017 had the "radar" around it and while I didn't think it was useful it definitely works wonders and also will be a standard feature on my next car.
I finally got my first one with a backup cam this year and it is pretty amazing! Not something i really needed when buying cars but after using it for a bit, i can see what all the fuss is now haha.
 

Armenius

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Google Ford electronic power steering problems and you may rethink your statement.
Have had Fords with EPS for 14 years and never had an issue. Looks like this recall was specific to two vehicles and model years. I've driven an old Explorer in the past that lost its hydraulic power steering in the middle of driving at 50 MPH and nothing bad happened, but it sure was hard making slow turns until I was able to fix it.
 

Endgame

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Basic math ... If you define TCO as total cost/time or total cost/miles then upfront cost is large contributor to TCO in the sort term. That said, as the denominator get larger it plays a MUCH larger role in TCO.
Yes, but you have to break that down into pieces. A higher tech or even electric car will cost more up front, but I believe will have less though possibly more expensive line item maintenance over time.

What is needed is the cost and probability of component failure for the whole car over a set duration? Also have to factor the cost of your time if doing the work yourself.
 

GoodBoy

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Here is a different article that makes it pretty clear what happened.

The Vice Minister of Economic Affairs of the Republic of China one Minister Wang Mei-hua, had a personal meeting with TMSC's executive board and told them to prioritize vehicle chip production.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/25/tai...c-will-prioritize-auto-chips-if-possible.html
Yeah. The proper way to apply pressure.

Read the title: "If at all possible" which has been the situation all along.
 

sfsuphysics

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I finally got my first one with a backup cam this year and it is pretty amazing! Not something i really needed when buying cars but after using it for a bit, i can see what all the fuss is now haha.
It's great because you freak everyone the fuck out when you're not looking backwards when you backup. However I will say after getting so used to for well over 10 years, getting a rental car on vacation without one I almost made a few blunders backing up while staring at the dash like there was a screen there, and not seeing anything behind me... whew boy, yeah luckily I only did that once on that vacation.
 

cybereality

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It's great because you freak everyone the fuck out when you're not looking backwards when you backup. However I will say after getting so used to for well over 10 years, getting a rental car on vacation without one I almost made a few blunders backing up while staring at the dash like there was a screen there, and not seeing anything behind me... whew boy, yeah luckily I only did that once on that vacation.
Yeah, happened to me when I rented a Yaris and it was the cheap/older model without a camera. Had trouble just getting out the lot.
 

Lakados

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Yeah. The proper way to apply pressure.

Read the title: "If at all possible" which has been the situation all along.
Yeah even these guys know there is only so much that can be done, it was mostly done to save face, if they hadn't said anything or done it through a phone call or email it would have seemed like too little. So by doing it in person like that it creates the image that they are doing something when everybody knows their hands are tied.
 

Nicklebon

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but I believe

That would be a fail! There is zero room for "but I believe" in math. As I said TOTAL COST. By total I mean all costs including but not limited to: acquisition, maintenance, insurance, taxes, fuel and repair.
 

Endgame

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That would be a fail! There is zero room for "but I believe" in math. As I said TOTAL COST. By total I mean all costs including but not limited to: acquisition, maintenance, insurance, taxes, fuel and repair.
Great - break it down then and put real numbers to it. As I said, I don’t know the probability of a transmission failure of a 1981 civic vs a 01 Taurus, vs a 21 Corolla. I do know a Tesla has a big fat 0 in that probably though.

My guess, as I stated, is that newer is more reliable, thus lower maintenance. I don’t know where to get actual data though, nor do I REALLY care when it comes to ICE vs ICE. I do care for ICE vs electric though.
 

vegeta535

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It's great because you freak everyone the fuck out when you're not looking backwards when you backup. However I will say after getting so used to for well over 10 years, getting a rental car on vacation without one I almost made a few blunders backing up while staring at the dash like there was a screen there, and not seeing anything behind me... whew boy, yeah luckily I only did that once on that vacation.
I still get beeped out parking cause people freaking out I a, going to hit their car. You can't fit a index card between the bumper with how close I can get without hitting the other car. Backup cameras have been one of the best thing invented for the general masses. I haven't had anyone back into my car the last few years. Before then there was always some kind of scuff mark or damage on my bumpers before cameras. You people cry that you don't need a camera but yea most the world does need it.
 

Lakados

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Great - break it down then and put real numbers to it. As I said, I don’t know the probability of a transmission failure of a 1981 civic vs a 01 Taurus, vs a 21 Corolla. I do know a Tesla has a big fat 0 in that probably though.

My guess, as I stated, is that newer is more reliable, thus lower maintenance. I don’t know where to get actual data though, nor do I REALLY care when it comes to ICE vs ICE. I do care for ICE vs electric though.
We are still doing a similar breakdown here, we need to replace our bus fleet, 8 busses. We are still collecting data but we have our maintenance costs for our existing fleet and its predecessors going back to the 70's, based on the numbers and estimates for the all-electric fleet over a 10 year period the electric busses appear to be significantly cheaper, how much cheaper depends on fuel and electrical rates, we have solar on all our main buildings and that is sold back to the grid so if we are repurposing that to charge the busses we are selling less and there are the unexpected things that get pretty costly pretty quickly but given pricing for motors and batteries and such we are estimating that each bus we swap out pays for itself in 7 years given expected mean time failures and assuming 1 in 3 require battery replacements before their 10 years is up. If they all require battery replacements before that 10 year period the expected costs between them wash out. What we are waiting on currently is the nature of the batteries and if they are something we are able to maintain ourselves swap out dead cells and such or if they require full replacements. We are waiting on updates from International and Bluebird on that, as well as pricing for their diagnostic tools and software licensing as they seem to change that every GD year.

One of our biggest pushbacks is from the union as they are afraid going electric would require us to have fewer mechanics on hand as they are expected to have much fewer issues, and on that, they are likely correct. So that is a whole other issue surrounding the conversion but that is one between the Union and HR, they will likely push to delay the conversion just to avoid the whole scenario but I am not sure accounting is going to want to go that route.


Note: When I say pays for itself I mean the savings from going electric exceeds the cost of having purchased the diesel model.
 
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