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right!? if people take care of their vehicles and not bag on them, they will a little longer. what aboot head gaskets?! my 03 legacy is pushing 290K/Km(180K) on the og gasket. only issues are the typical rust and i replaced shocks and brakes and repaired exhaust. normal stuff...
I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying I can't get in and replace it but that the process is unnecessarily harder by design. Changing a starter on my dads RX300 is super easy as it's on top and hardly anything in the way. The starter on my friends now defunct BMW X5 had the starter under the intake system which is a nightmare to remove. I've heard of some manufacturers who put the starter in the transmission bell housing.
Considering how many people repair Tesla's that isn't true. The problem is you're going from grease monkey to electrician to work on electric vehicles. There aren't many people who have experience or are willing to learn about electronics to comfortably work on a Tesla.
This is why I work on my own cars. As I speaking I left my 3D printer to make a part for my Porsche 928 because I'm sick and tired of hunting down over priced parts. If you're good at Minecraft then you can work CAD and make some simple plastic car parts.
They don't have maintenance manuals available for Teslas. Everything that is out there is a couple bros trying to reverse engineer some stuff and crossing their fingers. I have never seen anyone troubleshoot a Tesla at a component level - they just buy some used parts and swap them out while crossing their fingers.
You think most mechanics are going to look at a maintenance manual? Most shops use ALLDATA where you can find information from other mechanics that tell you how they fixed a problem. Most mechanics are also going to use Google just like most doctors. The truth is sad, I know. The ones that don't are going to wing it because they ain't got time for that. Those are the mechanics you want to avoid because good chance they know as much as you do in fixing that car.
I doubt they're complicated but the problem is that most of the failures are dependent on Tesla making parts that one could effectively buy at not inflated prices. There's a difference in fixing a part compared to replacing it. With enough effort a broken component can be repaired, but that usually takes a lot of time. Yet another example from my uncles 07 Tahoe was the gauge cluster that wasn't displaying anything on the LCD. A quick Google and a $5 part I was able to repair the cluster with basic soldering skills. There are plenty of clusters you can find online but I went with the cheapest option. A mechanic isn't going to solder a $5 part to save you money. You certainly can't do that with a Tesla battery so easily, especially since you gotta drop a very heavy battery pack to replace a $5 18650 battery. Good chance the software in the Tesla knows where the bad battery is located, at least generally. Using a multi-meter will narrow down the problem and isolate the bad 18650. This is not hard but a mechanic ain't got no time for this and will instead insist in replacing the battery entirely.
If you have solutions for this, or at least reasoned out and somewhat well formed ideas and patterns for it, get in touch with me privately.
Part of the problem is that Tesla has moved away from 18650 style batteries. So either Tesla makes upgraded parts for older vehicles or they will have to continue to manufacture 18650 style battery packs. As for the battery pack they can start by doing things like using rubber gaskets instead of a caulk like sealant they just squeeze all over. Make individual compartments per bank instead of one giant lid which takes up nearly the span of the car. Make the components to the battery modular like the coolant nozzle. Diagnostic software that can show you the health of the batteries. Prius owners can download Dr Prius that will give you real time information of the status of the battery for free. Not supplied by Toyota but still something.
So you don't really have much here. I'm extremely well aware of the problems and troubles facing here, and can say with certainty that you are very far off the mark in everything except your last part about Dx software availability.
My hybrid battery on my 2006 Prius is showing signs of replacement, big red triangle with exclamation mark in the middle is a key.
But yeah there is one cell that is definitely not holding a charge which brings down everything with it, and a cheap bluetooth OBD reader and said software showed me the problem in a flash without me having to go to a dealership (as per the manual states I should do), didn't need to get told "everything needs to be replaced that'll be $5000 please" (only a slight exaggeration). It gives me the option to know what is wrong though, so I can decide do I want to buy a used cell and try and rebuild the whole battery pack, do I want to buy a new 3rd party one (instead of the OEM version), it gives me the option of having knowledge of the situation rather than getting ambushed and told "it would be dangerous to drive the car" (it really isn't, just mileage majorly tanks and freeway speeds probably are not advisable). That seems like a sign you're living in the wrong state. Maybe not a major one, but yeesh. (The last time I went to Autozone, they were like "well, we're all busy, here's the machine, if you know where the port is.")
The bad thing is, replacing a single cell is often at best a band-aid.My hybrid battery on my 2006 Prius is showing signs of replacement, big red triangle with exclamation mark in the middle is a key.
But yeah why cars don't tell you problems instead of having a generic "check engine" light I dunno, well ok that's rhetorical I know... but I still don't know why they don't, the first time I had a check engine light it was because the gas cap wasn't tightened all the way... seriously WTF is that shit? and no stores like Autozone wouldn't read the codes for free as they do in some states. Cars come with an owners manual that's hundreds of pages long, largely useless, and just about any problem tells you to "take vehicle to dealer". As cheap as OBD readers are, cell phones are a thing, and google works, I would have thought newer cars this would be standard by now.
Oh yeah I totally get that, one cell changed of questionable life left in it (not sure I can buy new cells from anyplace, just 'refurbished' ones) but all the others are still pushing on that 15 year life span. The consensus I've seen is that unless you really want to get a lot of practice removing the battery and rebuilding it and rebalancing it, that it really isn't worth it. However the other side of that coin is that it is a 15 year old car, how much life is really left in it before another critical issue pops up, the $1600-2000 I throw into it today replacing the battery with a new one(and that's the DIY cost, fucking dealership quoted me $900 for labor making that a real easy choice to make). So yeah I've largely been waffling over what to do, simply moving my car back and forth across the street so I don't get a ticket for street sweepers, meanwhile being in a one car household for now.
Possibly, but what I did learn from that experience is that bluetooth OBD2 readers were so flipping cheap on Amazon and free apps to read the codes make it a no brainer just to do things yourself, because who knows if you should drive to Autozone at all... or if it is just something stupid like a gas cap being loose and clearing the code fixes the problem.
Ya. Thankfully, at least in Tesla's, everything else is going to last quite a long time, it seems. You'll stop getting feature updates for the MCU and what not, but, you'll still have a perfectly fine car to get around. They seem durable and mostly well built, but the battery cost looms large still, and will for awhile. And replacing a battery in a Tesla is even worse, since they're basically integral to the chassis. Definitely making the right call in not driving it, as frustrating as that has to be.
Wut? There are many reports of how crappy Tesla QC is and always a pain to get it properly fixed.
And there are many more that aren't problems. Most of the QC issues were during new product launches (X, Y, then 3). Of course things still happen, people are humans, and some aren't great at delivery, but it's no worse than typical manufacturers out there. Better tolerances than most, actually, even with "poor" QC. Definitely a PITA if someone takes delivery and needs something resolved after that though... Tesla service leaves a lot to be desired (have run into issues with it myself this past year). But that's not really the point of the thread
If you've made it far enough for the battery to be a real issue, especially on anything 2016 or newer, those QC issues aren't even a "thing"Not if you are on a fixed income. A car with a 100K is considered nearly new. Many decades ago a car with over 50 to 60K was at EOL. At 1 100K you could buy them for the equivalent in todays dollars of $500.00
Good call. I have had older cars that I have maintained perfectly with book values of $1500 and taken pictures of the body work, copies of receipts for work done, new tires etc. I rolled over a low value dodge truck, Blue Book, $1200.00 and received $3500.00 and they let me take back the new tires.
Dismissing a half dozen ideas? The problem is going to be removing the battery pack safely and getting to the offending failed battery or battery pack. My ideas make it easier to do that. Also a supply of parts would be great. If enough of these cars enters the used market then aftermarket batteries will show up. Probably not as good as OEM batteries but they'll work and that's what matters. It would be better if the batteries were updated and the software in the car was updated to match, but Tesla doesn't care about the environment so off to the trash these cars go.
I know about Dr Prius because I helped out my friend who has 2007 Prius with 280,000 miles. I took out the battery pack and went to town with the thing because a lot of the contacts had oxidized badly, but the offending problem was one of the batteries was leaking and shorting out to the frame. I did the cheapest thing and that was plastic weld the leak. A week later and now the car is complaining about the parking mechanism and something with the battery, which both are probably related to the battery. One of these days I'll have to use my laptop with TechStream software to get the detailed code and figure out what happened now. I own two Toyota cars so it's a handy tool for fixing them.My hybrid battery on my 2006 Prius is showing signs of replacement, big red triangle with exclamation mark in the middle is a key.
Turns out manufacturers are working hard so that you have to work harder to repair your car. Toyota isn't innocent from this as the reason I use TechStream is to get the detailed code. My cheap $15 bluetooth ODB2 adapter will tell me the code but to know exactly what's wrong you need the detailed code, which requires an expensive scan tool, or in my case just buy a cheap ODB2 to USB with a very boot leg looking CD with TechStream on it.
I agree and that really depends on what I'm replacing. For example in the 2nd Gen Prius the ability to get to the battery is really easy and just replacing one bad cell at a time is not a big deal. Now if this were a Tesla where dropping the battery is a huge ordeal and I don't want to come back here again then maybe replacing an entire bank or the battery itself is not a bad idea. The only real consequence in this case is time, which can translate to money. Imagine paying $6k for one bad 18650, and then doing this every couple of months. It's obviously cheaper to buy the $22k new battery.
Sure but if you're on a "fixed income" you're probably not buying a car that costs $90k (?? How much does the model S go for?)
Yeah. Their engineers have never heard of gaskets either. Bunch of idiots over there
The choices they make to manufacturer is not meant to make it easier to repair but easier to assemble. They avoid gaskets because it's just easier to tell Dave or a robot named Dave to squeeze out caulk and close the battery lid. For example, quick connector is only quick during assembly. Taking them apart is a pain in the ass, especially on BMW's. It's the same reason why smart phone manufacturers glue everything together instead of making a complicated battery compartment that you can easily remove the battery with your hands. Usually easy to remove with your hands. It's just cheaper to do it their way, and will increase assembly time, but usually makes it harder to remove and repair.Yeah. Their engineers have never heard of gaskets either. Bunch of idiots over there
(sarcasm, in case it's lost)
The early ones are worse, that's why it got detonated. It's just not worth fucking around with the packs because they are flawed. That was in the day when dendrite research was newer and Panasonic was probably making the cells, not a tech shared agreement at Tesla (gigafactory etc yet to come).
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Reminds me of the techie adage "Linux is only free if your time is worthless."
Really depends on the brand. The easiest way to know how long a car is going to last without any serious repairs is the length of warranty, and double it. So a Hyundai/Kia will be 200k miles, etc. This is assuming you follow the service intervals for fluids, etc.
Depends on the car and the work that needs to be done. Unless it's a luxury car that has value, then repairing it will always cost more than the vehicle itself. The parts are cheap, but the labor is what costs the most. My friend has a 2009 BMW 650i that has bad valve seals. The seals themselves are cheap but the work to change them easily goes beyond what he paid for the car. I plan to help him in the summer of 2022 to tackle this problem.
Buying a certified pre-owned vehicle isn't cheaper unless you like buying crappy vehicles like a Nissan Rogue and you'll find the CVT trans is bad and needs $3k to fix it. Most used vehicles are driven by people who put gas and maybe changed the oil. I say maybe because they likely won't. These cars were likely leased and when the lease was up the car is now for sale used. The beauty of a leased vehicle is that you don't have to worry about what damage is being done to the vehicle as you drive it down the road. You don't worry about maintenance or anything beyond putting fuel in it, but when the car is resold then it's now someone else's problem.
My advice is to stop looking at cars as an investment. The value of the car doesn't matter except for buying it. Unless it's a really old car like a 1970's Dodge Charger where their value actually goes up, but all other cars lose value, usually rapidly. Lets say you dump that $2000 1999 Pontiac Grand Prix, then what are you replacing it with? Chances are yet another used car with problems you're not aware of. Remember my friends 2009 BMW 650i? That was originally a nearly $100k valued car, and he got it for $7k. Cars are not investments, they're to get you from point A to point B or as a hobby for some people.
If you believe that taking the time to learn a valuable skill is worthless then you have bigger problems. Sure for that moment of time it takes to get something working on Linux or repairing a starter on a vehicle is something you don't expect to ever do ever again, would be a waste of time. Until you realize that Linux is so big that Microsoft is shifting towards Linux and now your alternator has gone bad and you need to fork over another $500 to repair that too.
I'm not a fan of Kia's but yes Toyota and Honda, in that order. Ascending order. There's a reason why Toyota/Lexus has a very high resale value right now.
There's a reason why the million mile Lexus has a million miles on it, and that's because it's a V8 engine with no Turbo or supercharger. A small little 4 cylinder engine with a turbo may make good power but will break down easily and you will need to buy a new rebuilt turbo. Get V6 or V8 engines with no forced induction otherwise you'll soon have another huge expensive to deal with.
Also it's cheaper to squirt out silicone around the shape of your battery compartment because it works with any shape you choose now and in the future, the gasket most likely would have to be special ordered for that unique shape adding a tiny bit of cost.
A skill is only valuable if it saves you enough time, money or both to be worth the effort. Even in the case of the alternator situation... well, do you want to spend time sourcing an alternator and repairing it, or would you rather spend that time with your family? If you have a few hours by yourself, sure, but I'd rather be spending quality time with my wife than in the garage working on my vehicle. This presumes you have the money, to be fair, but an alternator shouldn't be a frequent problem.
Without knowing the actual reason the battery needed to be replaced it's hard to tell what could have been done. It could have been something that yeah was fixable with some no how, but if taken to a stealership they're almost exclusively going to say the fix requires replacement of the whole unit, which is pretty much universal across all models of cars. It may have been something like my Prius battery pack, one module failing pretty much hurts everything else just because that's how electronics work, but if you can't access it to diagnose, and then potentially fix, then yeah it is pretty horrible.
Maybe but I'm focusing on reliability. How the car drives and feels is not something I have experience, but realibiilty is something I have a good deal of experience with. Go look how much a used Toyota Tacoma or any Lexus costs. They hold their value much better than any vehicle you can purchase. There's a reason for this.
One idea is to make battery cells a universal standard. Just like how Europe is forcing everyone to use USB-C we should force manufacturers to make battery cells universal as well. This way aftermarkets can compete in making batteries and junk yard electric vehicles can take a battery cell from a Chevy Bolt and stick it into a Tesla Model Z.
Just cause it was $100k new doesn't mean anything after 8 years. Once a car is sold and it becomes a second hand car, it's true value is now determined. You see this a lot with used Mercedes and BMW's that you can now find really cheap even though their original value was like $70k+. They cost a fortune to fix and because of this they have really low value.
Oh I agree, however making them do something like this would be quite difficult to pull off, just look at charging standards there's not just one and that is probably something that should be most standardized. Unfortunately though with Tesla's newest push where they do integrate the battery compartment as an integral part of the frame the idea of swapping out just fades away... at least for Tesla, other E-vehicle manufacturers could do something quite altruistic and come to an agreement on batteries and just leave Tesla in the dust but I don't see that happening either. Too much rah-rah "let the market decide" mentality in this country.
To be fair, not only is Tesla pretty much a leader (along with Panasonic) on EV batteries, they have open sourced all their patents as well. They're also adopting CCS connectors, though I'm not sure when/if they'll roll it out to all new models (especially in NA). It'd be up to other manufacturers to use the same battery... but I really don't see that as a benefit, and it would wedge design quite a lot.
The benefit would be if EV makers made it such that batteries were hot swappable, since waiting 30+ minutes for rapid charging or 4+ hours for "fast" charging seems to be one of the larger roadblocks for EV adoption, or at least one of the largest complaints people who don't have an EV (and probably never will) tends to bring up.
I really don't think hot swap is a valid path forward, for a number of reasons. I think non-owners vastly overinflate the "issue" with charging as well. I know EVs aren't for everyone, and definitely know a lot of use cases where 300mi in a day is not enough.
