Sticking With Windows 7? The Forecast Calls For Pain

M76

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Jun 12, 2012
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I love win 7 64 bit, didn't like 8 and don't want to go to 10 just yet, i just rebuilt a system a few weeks ago and it went good, I also have a sweet win 7 64 USB that i use.

IS 10 any good? I have never been an early adopter when it comes to MS OS's.....

I was an early adopter I even tried beta WinME, and Win2K. But when vista came out I tried it and decided I don't want this. By the time 7 came out XP was showing it's age so I switched. But 8 was a total disaster, I felt that I'd need to completely le-learn how to use the UI, and even then it would be more cumbersome and less productive. And 10 is just halfway between 7 and 8 in terms of usability. So I feel it's still a step back instead of forward.
 

spugm1r3

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Funny, I just did this yesterday. I had a harder time with the Win7 installer squawking at me for CD/DVD drivers and failing to recognize USB 3.0 ports than I did with the updates after. I ended up having to install on an older mobo, drop the drivers on the desktop, then swap back to the system I was trying to install to in the first place.

So, par for the course.
 

Michaelius

Supreme [H]ardness
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Sep 8, 2003
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It used to be quite easy - now you have to filter telemetry and win 10 forced upgrade updates manually.

Oh well I moved my work pc to OSX and outside of gaming rig I don't care anymore.
 

ManofGod

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I recently installed Win7 SP1 from media on 2 new builds in my house. The process was a complete nightmare. The 2 identical PCs reacted very differently to the process, which amazes me. It took probably 3-4 days before I installed the final update. Both machines broke multiple times (click check for updates and receive an error) that required me to completely reset Windows updates before it would continue.

Let me guess, the error was that is was installing updates and too wait? What happened that it took 3 to 4 days to install the final update and broke updates multiple times? So far, I have not experienced that issue, just the long scan times to search for updates. (No, it is not a pain, just click and walk away while making sure the computer is not set to go to sleep.) In fact, they often automatically install overnight.
 

TechLarry

RIP [H] Brother - June 1, 2022
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There should have been a service pack 2 for Windows 7 a LONG LONG time ago, if for no other reason than a roll-up.

The withholding of SP2 is simply another way for MS to prod people towards what they want them to use.

I'm surprised enterprise hasn't been more vocal on this.
 

Monkey God

Mangina Full of Sand
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May 7, 2007
Messages
6,723
Your best friend(s):
Windows6.1-KB3102810-x64.msu
Windows6.1-KB3102810-x86.msu

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3102810

Those have reduced the initial scan time for updates down to as little as 5-15 minutes. There is a thread around the forums here with more info. I just did a fresh Win 7 SP1 install this morning, installed the x64 file mentioned and it took <5 min to finish the initial check for updates. YMMV as I have heard it doesn't fix the issue for everyone.

Yep - this is mandatory for new installs. Ive had older machines literally crash and hang up trying to chew through all the updates.
 

Waveforme

Gawd
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Jul 14, 2006
Messages
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I did a clean install of Windows 7 last month. Because we were upgrading almost every piece of software on the systems I thought it would be nice to start fresh. Just having it query for the Windows updates took almost 6 hours. It used to take maybe 5 minutes. Finally it brought up the list of a couple hundred then I left it overnight to install.

This....

I put together a gaming rig out of spare parts to leave at a buddy's house. I had the same issues when updating Windows 7. Since the rig was mostly old or used parts, I thought it was hardware problems. Everything worked fine... accept for Windows Update. I left it alone to do all my Steam updaes, etc. When I came back to it a coupe hours later, it was FINALLY downloading Windows updates.
 

ShagnWagn

[H]ard|Gawd
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This....

I put together a gaming rig out of spare parts to leave at a buddy's house. I had the same issues when updating Windows 7. Since the rig was mostly old or used parts, I thought it was hardware problems. Everything worked fine... accept for Windows Update. I left it alone to do all my Steam updaes, etc. When I came back to it a coupe hours later, it was FINALLY downloading Windows updates.

Windows Updates are set to low priority on network traffic using a technology called "BITS". If you set Steam to download several GBs of data, you effectively made the updates take much longer to download.
 

Trepidati0n

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Just did a clean install of Win7 last night from the original ISO. Took 60 minutes to fully patch and install my typical apps. Seriously...with SSD's..the pain is so small these days.
 

otherweeb

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Jan 8, 2016
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First world problems.

I remember when I needed at least 3 CD's to install XP. The installation disc and 2 service paks. So with WIn7 you have to relax with a couple brews while it sucks updates outta the net?
 

LigTasm

Supreme [H]ardness
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Jul 29, 2011
Messages
5,501
I did a fresh install of 7 Pro today, 264 updates to do. As long as SP1 is installed on Pro (Home you have to update the updater first) I just run KB3102810 and then it takes like 30 seconds to find the updates, about an hour to install all of them on an SSD.
 

Zigmorph

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
276
Going through this "pain" myself. Cousin wanted me to put a fresh install of 7 on her laptop. I've been updating for what feels like days at this point. The struggle is real.
 

ShagnWagn

[H]ard|Gawd
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Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,233
Do you guys want to know REAL "pain"?
DIPGddN.png
 

michalrz

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The bottom line is that no matter what you or I think, Windows simply has to move faster because of the market. What faster means is a fair question but three year development cycles in the consumer world just can't be anymore. Every year Apple and Google tick out a new version with a bigger number. The monopoly that you've so many times blasted really would have liked your way.

At first glance I was going to ask you about that Market guy again or firmly state that I am the market and that I decline.

But then I saw you referring to the version bunny-hopping companies are so fond of these days. And I'll tell you this: Apple I have no idea about - I have literally ignored its existence because of my 'if Windows don't kill it, Linux will' philosophy. Google is doing theirs in a fairly subtle and consistent matter. Adobe and Mozilla are simply annoying. But Windows to Windows, or Office to Office (ribbon, missing ruler, etc.) is too overwhelming for the dozens/ a shy hundred of people I deal with.
I was just a temp when ribbon in 2007 came out and I still get chills remembering the legwork I had to do before my 'usual suspects' re-trained.
Now, a move to the UI formerly known as Metro... You can probably extrapolate.
I'm guessing, looking at the sad attempts over at Mozilla (typing this in FF right now), such as 'everyone download the new one so we get famous' I'm guessing it's simply marketing at work - EVERYONE LOOK AT OUR BRAND. LOOK AT IT. NO, HERE. LOOK. IT'S BLUE NOW. While removing and re-adding of features resemble microtransactions to me...
 

heatlesssun

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At first glance I was going to ask you about that Market guy again or firmly state that I am the market and that I decline.

But then I saw you referring to the version bunny-hopping companies are so fond of these days. And I'll tell you this: Apple I have no idea about - I have literally ignored its existence because of my 'if Windows don't kill it, Linux will' philosophy. Google is doing theirs in a fairly subtle and consistent matter. Adobe and Mozilla are simply annoying. But Windows to Windows, or Office to Office (ribbon, missing ruler, etc.) is too overwhelming for the dozens/ a shy hundred of people I deal with.
I was just a temp when ribbon in 2007 came out and I still get chills remembering the legwork I had to do before my 'usual suspects' re-trained.
Now, a move to the UI formerly known as Metro... You can probably extrapolate.
I'm guessing, looking at the sad attempts over at Mozilla (typing this in FF right now), such as 'everyone download the new one so we get famous' I'm guessing it's simply marketing at work - EVERYONE LOOK AT OUR BRAND. LOOK AT IT. NO, HERE. LOOK. IT'S BLUE NOW. While removing and re-adding of features resemble microtransactions to me...

Many have complained about Windows 8.x/10 changing things for sake of change. But there comes a point when you do the same thing the same way for too long time will pass you by. Windows was originally designed for desktops and keyboards and mouse pointing devices and the majority of today's computing devices simply aren't this. It's just not enough for Windows to be a desktop centric keyboard and mouse driven operating system. The fastest growing category of Windows devices are touch enabled 2 in 1s. Not a new idea but enough has come together finally where these devices are much better and more practical than ever. I'm not saying everything is ideal or perfect with 10 but overall I think the idea is sound. Obviously there are those that disagree. And that's fine and to be expected when a product that has such a long history has to adapt to a new generation and time.

As for the ribbon, I work at a mega bank and we moved over to Office 2007 in 2009 and it when much better than many expected. The ribbon is nearly a decade old now and is the basis of the Office UI across all of its numerous clients. From Windows desktop to universal Windows to OS X to iOS to Android to web with keyboard, mouse, touch and pen input. Nothing else comes close to this kind of cross-platform, multiple input flexibility. If the ribbon were anywhere near the problem that some claim it to be, how could it have endured this long and across so many clients? And the ruler is still there, not sure why you thought it wasn't. In the ribbon select View and click the Ruler checkbox.
 
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michalrz

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Many have complained about Windows 8.x/10 changing things for sake of change. But there comes a point when you do the same thing the same way for too long time will pass you by. Windows was originally designed for desktops and keyboards and mouse pointing devices and the majority of today's computing devices simply aren't this. It's just not enough for Windows to be a desktop centric keyboard and mouse driven operating system. The fastest growing category of Windows devices are touch enabled 2 in 1s. Not a new idea but enough has come together finally where these devices are much better and more practical than ever. I'm not saying everything is ideal or perfect with 10 but overall I think the idea is sound. Obviously there are those that disagree. And that's fine and to be expected when a product that has such a long history has to adapt to a new generation and time.

As for the ribbon, I work at a mega back and we moved over to Office 2007 in 2009 and it when much better than many expected. The ribbon is nearly a decade old now and is the basis of the Office UI across all of its numerous clients. From Windows desktop to universal Windows to OS X to iOS to Android to web with keyboard, mouse, touch and pen input. Nothing else comes close to this kind of cross-platform, multiple input flexibility. If the ribbon were anywhere near the problem that some claim it to be, how could it have endured this long and across so many clients? And the ruler is still there, not sure why you thought it wasn't. In the ribbon select View and click the Ruler checkbox.

Sorry, what's 'mega back' - this is obviously not my native tongue.

Yes, it is (ribbon UI) indeed stone age in computer years, even for a cautious user such as myself. I totally see your point, it appeared right as rain with the advent of touch enabled devices.

But I still remember that frustration as we were (myself an intern and my 'tutor') scrambling to find some sort of customization headroom both at Microsoft and at third parties. I remember installing some random plugin that brought it 'close' but still lacked as far as Mandel's 'golden' UI design rules.
As with 8, all it needed was the legacy option..

Particularly the rule "Reduce Users’ Memory Load" - by default there seemed to have had appeared a limitation in how much tools you could have kept handy.
People flipped through the categories tabs left to right and back again because the stress of their tasks at hand hindered their curiosity, confidence and prevented remembering where their tools are now.

Some knew to right-click and use context menus, but sadly those were the minority (young folk).
The compromise I had then found was right-clicking on a category tab's name, clicking 'show below ribbon' and then minimize the ribbon. Boom - almost there. But, wow, that was a chore and one we didn't anticipate at that point in time.

However, at that same time period I dealt with simpler programs - such as a WYSIWYG tool to create consistent XML files of legal acts which the county I worked for had been publishing. The central government proposed a schema that stuck, and publishing of local laws became easier. I work in local government as IT.

And there, in that program, the ribbon was actually supporting the above 'golden rule' by perfectly separating edit, view, prefs, misc, etc. Less confusion for users. Good implementation I guess.

While I probably come across as stubborn, conservative in general, it does not manifest across the board. I know good stuff when I see it, or so I like to believe.
To give accurate 'positive' examples...

- I saw Vmware server (back then it was 100% free for commercial use and was feature packed) in 2008 and basically learned and implemented it in stride. No learning curve at all. It was pure genius. Been using VT ever since.
- I saw Linux for the first time in 2005, and didn't like it because of its inherent flaws that came with the fragmentation of its ecosystem.
But, at school, we did programming assignments by opening a secure shell on the school's server from class or from home. Text-only work using nano, vi, mutt, svn and the like.
So when I became versed with the Posix command line, I thought: wow, a free solution to all the typical crap I had to deal with at work (file server, directory service, intranet company specific software).
- SSDs - from day one I knew I desperately wanted one (by that time I was short-stroking spinner drives with time critical stuff using HPA) and disregarded iops and wear issues.
- to this day I remember the title of a [H] thread in the lines of 'our top dog defeated by Intel's new' or something similar in the AMD forum during its K8 hey-day. It was Intel's Core 2.
One look at the specs and design ideas behind Conroe (the first core of that line?) and I was done with AMD there and then.
It was a non-issue. I didn't get why people were even arguing.
The thermals, IPC and insane overclockability won me over with no 'brand loyalty' to stop me.
- first time I saw a GPU driver silently fail (Vista's userspace driver framework?) and then gracefully restart itself without interruption - I thought: wow, how did they pull that off. This is great.

So when 8 had come, and then 8.1 brought the start button back only to have it transfer you over to metro - I felt slapped in the face and very disappointed. Some cool features I liked right away but it was too awkward to utilize them.
10, to me, is what 7 was to Vista.

I guess by the nature of the above innovations you're able to tell what my pet peeves with 'number bumping' are, and what kind of things I consider ground breaking and what broke 'good rules'.
 

heatlesssun

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Sorry, what's 'mega back' - this is obviously not my native tongue.

My bad, typo, that should have been "mega bank". We moved over about 200,000 Office installs to 2007 and are in the process of moving over those to Office 2013.

But I still remember that frustration as we were (myself an intern and my 'tutor') scrambling to find some sort of customization headroom both at Microsoft and at third parties. I remember installing some random plugin that brought it 'close' but still lacked as far as Mandel's 'golden' UI design rules.
As with 8, all it needed was the legacy option..

The problem with that is that the ribbon is both a command and control UI. I've made this point before and it get's glossed over as some sort of corporate speak but the ribbon flattens two things into one. Keeping the legacy drop down menus only adds more complexity when the new UI really is much cleaner, simpler and more flexible.

Particularly the rule "Reduce Users’ Memory Load" - by default there seemed to have had appeared a limitation in how much tools you could have kept handy.
People flipped through the categories tabs left to right and back again because the stress of their tasks at hand hindered their curiosity, confidence and prevented remembering where their tools are now.

It was nearly ten years ago when I read this but I do remember it clearly, I'll had to find it some day. Microsoft said at the time that about 90% of requests they were getting for new features were already in Office, but people just couldn't find them. Tons of drop down cascading menus are great when you know them by heart, which seems to be one the big problems that fans of the old drop down menus didn't like about the ribbon. But for people not so well versed the ribbon as intentionally designed to make finding functions easier.
 

michalrz

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My bad, typo, that should have been "mega bank". We moved over about 200,000 Office installs to 2007 and are in the process of moving over those to Office 2013.

Luckily I only had 50. But, believe me, they were angry. Housecat secretaries turned assasins... lingering in the shadows with their coffee pots... silent as I paced down the corridor like a gauntlet of deadpan thousand yard stares... the horror.... the horror... :D

The problem with that is that the ribbon is both a command and control UI. I've made this point before and it get's glossed over as some sort of corporate speak but the ribbon flattens two things into one. Keeping the legacy drop down menus only adds more complexity when the new UI really is much cleaner, simpler and more flexible.

I didn't even think about that issue but yes, it's a mix, and combined with the 'big round button' where 'File' used to be introduced some inconsistency. So, when I saw the ribbon addopted early in the 'legalese' editor I mentioned I thought: wow, some brazen coders to jump on that bandwagon. But, alas, they got it down better than MS in Word 2007. Albeit with a fraction of the available tools. But it worked. So I'm not attacking particular tech - merely its implementation. My beef with the ruler? :) it was hidden by default, so I had to switch 50 switches :D

It was nearly ten years ago when I read this but I do remember it clearly, I'll had to find it some day. Microsoft said at the time that about 90% of requests they were getting for new features were already in Office, but people just couldn't find them. Tons of drop down cascading menus are great when you know them by heart, which seems to be one the big problems that fans of the old drop down menus didn't like about the ribbon. But for people not so well versed the ribbon as intentionally designed to make finding functions easier.

Not surprised at all - I feel most of the outfits here could get away with Wordpad and RTF because they use so few typesetting, automation and desktop publishing features of Office it's IMHO a scary waste. And Office is friggin expensive here - the 'home and small business' package (Word, Excel, PPT, something) is like 900 PLN. For reference, I earn around 2100 PLN monthly.

And employee re-education is very hard with the workload I have.
 
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