DXVK. That's the paradigm shift that's occurred since your old testing. It's pretty remarkable.
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![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Steam Play Evolves as Valve Adds Tools for Windows to Linux Compatibility
DXVK. That's the paradigm shift that's occurred since your old testing. It's pretty remarkable.
Yep. With Windows 8, MS telegraphed their walled off, Metro-only, no-Win32 intentions. The fact they failed miserably doesn't change the intent. Someone tries breaking into your house but fails, they still tried. With Windows S, same thing. It failed to gain traction and laughed off by OEMs, then was rebranded "S Mode", which is also DOA since it's just a crippled, Store-only mode and everyone disables it immediately. MS would've loved nothing more than for it to gain enough traction to be able to make it standard on every retail PC. Intent.
However now after Metro/UWP/Store/Windows Mobile all failed, now with the benefit of hindsight, the MS boosters insist "well they were never that serious about it anyway, they knew they couldn't just get rid of Win32" - yeah, bullshit. MS execs are on the record years ago saying they wanted to deprecate Win32 as quickly as possible. It was repeated at several Build conferences. And it was reported by Paul Thurrott many times from internal sources at MS before they were acknowledging it publicly.
Valve couldn't just sit around waiting to be shut out, they had to start planning for worst case. But unfortunately with Valve being Valve, they've been doing so at glacial speed which has been disappointing.
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heatlesssun
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How well this works against ~20k titles with new hundreds of new title a month will be a question that's going to take a lot of time to sort through. This is still in beta with only 27 initial officially supported titles with a number of them VR.
It will be interesting (well more funny really) to see where you move the goal posts too next.
Hardly, Steam isn't the only source of games and there's no way that Proton right now is 100% compatible across the board.
Saying games are just not that important in this context is literally the opposite of everything about this.
Run a VERY complex condition with PC gaming. If a PC gamer with lower end hardware is constantly getting big performance hits, this may not be worth it to that PC gamer and just easier to stick with works well and officially supported by the developer.
So the future of Linux gaming is Windows games? If I'd said what you're saying here 5 years ago when this started, I would have been accused of being nothing a Windows shill. And now it's as real as real gets.
naib
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DXVK does sort out DX12 and DX11 performance, that vulkan wraper is magic.
its now targeting DX10 and I guess DX9 to reclaim the missing performance
but damn this is good!. Its always been the chicken and the egg situation ... game developers want to make money but don't see a market for linux, users (might) want to use linux but don't see the games for it.
Yes this is Valve hedging their bets, providing a level of abstraction so they are independent of any other changes but this is good!
Ideally native games, but providing a bridge for the present catalogued is great. Only time will tell whether developers stay lazy and stick with windows OR actually provide native clients. Hopefully they provide native clients but they need to see there is a market. At the very least it should help push vulkan
WINE has always been scarily good at mapping windows API to linux API but suffered in DX-OGL wrapping.
its now targeting DX10 and I guess DX9 to reclaim the missing performance
but damn this is good!. Its always been the chicken and the egg situation ... game developers want to make money but don't see a market for linux, users (might) want to use linux but don't see the games for it.
Yes this is Valve hedging their bets, providing a level of abstraction so they are independent of any other changes but this is good!
Ideally native games, but providing a bridge for the present catalogued is great. Only time will tell whether developers stay lazy and stick with windows OR actually provide native clients. Hopefully they provide native clients but they need to see there is a market. At the very least it should help push vulkan
WINE has always been scarily good at mapping windows API to linux API but suffered in DX-OGL wrapping.
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Zarathustra[H]
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Thank you guys for this information. I was not aware of this development.
How do you define emulator though? To me, whenever you have a translation layer it is an emulator, and every translation layer implies at least a small performance and latency cost.
Either way, this looks like a huge leap forward.
I've become so used to dual booting at this point though, that I'm not sure I'd try to run games in Linux at this point, even though I am a huge Linux user. I'd rather just keep my games and my general purpose desktop separate.
naib
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Personally I always class WINE as an emulator as it is emulating an interface. The Acronym is "WIne Is Not an Emulator" as they push "its not emulating a CPU" ... that is a narrow definition of emulation and I went on a crazy rant somewhere (I think the gentoo forums... ill search) where I took down that platform
--edit--
found it and yes gentoo forums
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-408952.html
To my limited knowledge, DXVK is really more bridging DirectX <-> Vulkan than it is abstracting or emulating. It's happening low level. I agree that traditional emulation sucks.
Personally I always class WINE as an emulator as it is emulating an interface. The Acronym is "WIne Is Not an Emulator" as they push "its not emulating a CPU" ... that is a narrow definition of emulation and I went on a crazy rant somewhere (I think the gentoo forums... ill search) where I took down that platform
--edit--
found it and yes gentoo forums
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-408952.html
Its not an emulator because yes it is not emulating hardware at all.
If you class Wine an emulator then Windows is an emulator. Thats illogical but its not... every OS would be an emulator if wine is an emulator. Its just software that takes code calls and translates them to hardware calls. Wine is no different then running software via opengl or any other API.
Wine is a Windows API, in the same way DX or ogl or Vulkan translate code into hardware calls for your GPU.
naib
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I think you need to read the thread I posted
Zarathustra[H]
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I still see it as an emulator. Hardware is not the only thing which can be emulated.
It presents itself as a windows environment to the software running on it. As such it is a windows emulator, which includes emulating the presence of DirectX, via DXVA.
Except it's really closer to virtualization than emulation due to the low level that the translation is occurring at.
Whatever you want to call it, if the game can maintain 60FPS and there's no additional or noticeable input lag then that's killer, and DXVK is pretty much already there. I just looked into Dark Souls 3 and it seems 4k60 is perfectly playable in DXVK, so I'm going to fire up a Steam Play session to test firsthand tonight.
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Zarathustra[H]
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I see this as semantics.
Virtualization to me is nothing but a form of hardware accelerated computer emulation
I mean, what are you doing here? You have a combination of hardware features and software code that is emulating a standalone system within your computer, you can install an OS on.
When ever you take one thing, and have it present itself as something it isn't, to me it is a form of emulation.
Sometimes you emulate hardware.
Sometimes you emulate software.
Sometimes you have hardware acceleration to help you accelerate software or hardware emulation.
Sometimes you only have to emulate part of something, as the underlying architectural calls are the same.
Sometimes you have to emulate the whole shebang in software. This last one is where traditional emulators operated, but to me all the other above examples are no less emulation.
naib
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Gotta love Linux users
A fantastic piece of tech has been released but we are not using it because we are arguing over definitions
A fantastic piece of tech has been released but we are not using it because we are arguing over definitions
I've been able to get everything to run with no input on my behalf whatsoever, even many unsupported older titles run perfectly with absolutely no configuration on my part and great performance. The only title I can't get to run is Doom, all I get is a black screen with no sound on launch (which I see Doom is renowned for, even under Windows).
Running Nvidia 396.51/GTX 980Ti, anyone else experienced this issue?
As far as performance goes, so far nothing has dipped below 60fps. Basically, when I'm playing a game I have no idea I'm not running native Windows.
Running Nvidia 396.51/GTX 980Ti, anyone else experienced this issue?
As far as performance goes, so far nothing has dipped below 60fps. Basically, when I'm playing a game I have no idea I'm not running native Windows.
DeathFromBelow
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Gotta love Linux users
A fantastic piece of tech has been released but we are not using it because we are arguing over definitions
I see a bunch of Microsoft bots arguing semantics to derail the thread.
It's almost as bad as the Trump shills in the soapbox...
So you're running the titles through Steam Play?
Can anyone say for sure if running windows titles through Steam Play registers to steam as linux usage? I'm presuming yes, since it's the Linux steam client thats registering active during the gaming session regardless of game.
heatlesssun
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I read over on GamingOnLinux that Steam is counting Proton as Linux.
Stanley Pain
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Or you know just run O&O Shutup10 and not worry about it.
As for the updates, do them. Always. If your work flow is impacted by this from a simple reboot it's time to move onto LTSB.
Problem is, the third party hacks are only a best guess at stopping telemetry. An official off switch is ultimately needed. Next feature update just delete the hacks and you have to reapply them again, hoping nothing else changed. It's neverending. Or you can just give up and give in to MS's war of attrition. MS has been hardcoding more bypasses to windows update and injecting changes directly. Example O&O ShutUp10 didn't stop "Windows 10 Update Assistant" from bypassing GPO settings, bypassing WU, injecting a process into 1709 and adding a scheduled task that would download build 1803 endlessly. Delete it, it reappeared. That's malware tactics. Delete all the store apps with powershell, MS reinstalls them all too.
As for updates, until MS separates security fixes from being bundled in with the crapware updates, failed social/phone apps and other nonsense features, I'll continue to avoid them. They also don't honor GPO settings on multiple occasions now (Delay feature updates by 365 days - NOPE they ignore that). LTSB isn't feasible for home or a small/midsize business. I like Windows 10 but it needs a few concessions.
If Steam Play ends up becoming the spark that finally ignites Linux Gaming, at least it might apply some downward pressure on MS to stop taking its users for granted - everyone benefits. If not, buh bye.
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heatlesssun
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I guess we'll see where this all goes. Six years when Windows 8 launched and Gabe declared it a catastrophe and Steam Linux support started I seriously doubt the plan then was to wait six years and then add in the box Windows compatibility tech to the Steam client to make Linux gaming catch on.
Sure this is great thing for Linux gamers and can provide options to those looking for alternatives to Windows for gaming but this just started, in beta with 27 "officially" supported games where the developer currently has nothing to do with it. When it comes to Valve and betas, that can take a while and Proton is probably at least a year away from non-beta status. Assuming that Valve sticks with it.
I have to imagine that Valve had FAR higher hopes for native Linux gaming but that really hasn't worked out so great and I feel like they had little choice here before Linux would have simply become irrelevant to all but hardcore Linux fans. So this s practical path forward for now but it's going to take some time to know where this is really going.
Well your guess is as good as mine WTF Gabe is doing managing Valve. I would love to know what his daily routine consists of at this point.
I'm finally at the point where I don't care if more and more publishers continue to splinter off from Steam with their own launchers and digital stores. When progress is that glacial, then beyond a certain point why bother at all. There's just enough drip...drip....drip... to occasionally get peoples' hopes up.
Valve Time and Half Like 3 have gone from running jokes to just being tired of running.
heatlesssun
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I think that Gabe wanted to give Linux time to grow into a viable gaming competitor to Windows. That just didn't happen so Plan B. Probably didn't need to wait six years but I do think that for now until there's a good amount of data to look at, native Linux gaming development is going to take a hit.
It amazes me how you keep pushing this narrative that getting Windows games to work on Linux is bad for Linux and will lead to reduce development for the platform. Gaming marketshare for Linux couldn't get any lower, it's substantially less than Macs for god's sake. There's no money in it as it is. Any game development for Linux is happening because the devs want to. Because there's a wrapper to run Windows games on Linux with mixed results doesn't mean they'll throw in the towel. They could have done that already and let WINE handle things. This effort will either lead to not much change at all, or else an increase for Linux as a platform due to wider game compatibility. It can't get WORSE if it's already rock bottom.
You're literally saying being able to run Windows games on Linux will hurt gaming on Linux. Show me any system where being able to run MORE games on it hurt it as a platform. That's the logic you're using here.
As everyone is claiming, this is massive for Linux gaming, the only milestone this big was when Valve actually began supporting Linux under Steam.
Just worked out my issue with Doom, I had the FPS overlay enabled in Steam, disable the overlay and Doom runs perfectly in full Vulkan glory - In fact Doom runs amazing and you don't have to do any more than open the Linux Steam client, install and play. Fantastic.
Just worked out my issue with Doom, I had the FPS overlay enabled in Steam, disable the overlay and Doom runs perfectly in full Vulkan glory - In fact Doom runs amazing and you don't have to do any more than open the Linux Steam client, install and play. Fantastic.
I still find it funny how you flat out refuse to accept that valves Linux gaming push has not been a failure.
With out Valves linux push the majority of windows users today would all be using win32 less windows right now... running a handful of DX 12 required games, and complaining about all the xbox exclusives they can't play on the PC.
If nothing else Valve scared MS into acting like the PC actually matters to them for at least a few more years.
Linux gaming has went from Tux Racer... to AAA games like Rocket League ARK ect and 70-80% of the top 100 steam games having Linux ports.
We get it your a Die hard MS guy.... but the ultimate goal for SteamOS was never world domination. Get that silly idea out of your head. The idea was to push cross platform even more then it was already going to be pushed... and ensure MS couldn't pull any crazy BS like shipping every day mid range PCs with Steam locked out versions of windows.
Valves plans have not failed, and they are still the #1 game store. Without SteamOS I'm not so sure they wouldn't be clinging on to hardcores right now and watching all their casual gamers get snapped up by MS.
Stanley Pain
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I have yet to see this process injection in about 4500 Windows 10 Enterprise deployments..... the rest of what you say sounds like some serious tin foil hat territory stuff. Have you actually spied Win 10 sending unwarranted data somewhere when you've disabled all the telemetry stuff? Do you use a cellphone? You're more than likely being tracked by multiple parties. At some point in time you either trust the platform you're on or wholesale move to one that more suits your privacy needs
Good news that Steam Play is shaping up to be monstrous. Played some Grim Dawn and World of Warships on Arch Linux, was getting nearly the same FPS as I would in Windows. Good stuff.
I have yet to see this process injection in about 4500 Windows 10 Enterprise deployments..... the rest of what you say sounds like some serious tin foil hat territory stuff. Have you actually spied Win 10 sending unwarranted data somewhere when you've disabled all the telemetry stuff? Do you use a cellphone? You're more than likely being tracked by multiple parties. At some point in time you either trust the platform you're on or wholesale move to one that more suits your privacy needs
You know what, this move on behalf of Valve is quite exciting, especially for Linux users and I have yet to see any real negativity surrounding the move - In fact the vast amount of discussion all over the internet highlights the popularity of Linux as a platform.
Can't we, just for once, keep the Windows discussion to a minimum, at least make sure Windows discussion relates to the topic and not Enterprise deployments? No one cares.
illram
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I'd love to give Windows the boot (ha!) on my gaming rigs. Even though it is basically free now, assuming you can tolerate the watermark.
heatlesssun
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I am FAR from the only one thinking this. The threads about this at Phoronix, GamingOnLinux and Steam make the same point.
I am literally saying why would a developer develop a native Linux client if Valve is going to do the hard work of making that happen? That's a perfectly reasonable and logical question particularly at this point because it's going to take some time to see how this all plays out.
heatlesssun
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If it had been all that successful then there'd be no need for a bunch of Windows compatibility tech.
Nobu
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If it works well enough with the compatibility shit, no love lost here. If not, well, tough tomatoes, they probably don't care enough to make a native game anyway.
I have yet to see this process injection in about 4500 Windows 10 Enterprise deployments..... the rest of what you say sounds like some serious tin foil hat territory stuff. Have you actually spied Win 10 sending unwarranted data somewhere when you've disabled all the telemetry stuff? Do you use a cellphone? You're more than likely being tracked by multiple parties. At some point in time you either trust the platform you're on or wholesale move to one that more suits your privacy needs
Good news that Steam Play is shaping up to be monstrous. Played some Grim Dawn and World of Warships on Arch Linux, was getting nearly the same FPS as I would in Windows. Good stuff.
You're deploying 10 Enterprise. Unless one pirates, home users are stuck with Pro at best. Whether I use a phone in a very limited capacity is also irrelevant to what happens on my PC, and does not create in me a sense of obligation to send a constant stream of 3500 datapoints to MS in Basic telemetry mode. Less telemetry and less parties tracking us is better than more. How is this an argument?
Most of the companies that are upfront about data collection have incentivized it by providing compelling services or apps for their platforms. Microsoft on the other hand has created no incentives or killer features in Windows 10 to make telemetry a fair tradeoff. DX12 is still a nonstarter ignored by 99% of developers, and 10 launches and plays games no better than 8.1.
In any case Steam Play is definitely an awesome development for finally getting the Linux Gaming ball rolling, I hope it spreads like wildfire. I'm looking forward to no longer needing to dual-boot just to play games.
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Certain developers are of the opinion that they're too big to care about Linux porting, which is holding back the advancement of Linux as a gaming platform. Valve are aware of this and naturally do not want Windows being the dominant platform for business reasons, so Valve have taken it upon themselves to give Linux users what they've been asking for.
It all makes perfect sense and I see no reason why such a move would be detrimental to native Linux ports of which most are DX > OGL wrappers anyway. Hopefully, once the larger developers see a mass interest in a platform other than Windows they'll begin to wake up.
It all makes perfect sense and I see no reason why such a move would be detrimental to native Linux ports of which most are DX > OGL wrappers anyway. Hopefully, once the larger developers see a mass interest in a platform other than Windows they'll begin to wake up.
KazeoHin
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Because there was such a booming and prosperous Linux gaming industry before....
Icon_Charlie
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I think I can answer some of this question. I do business in different parts of the world (not as much as before though pretty much retired.) There is really a Great Divide between Westernized Civilization and everyone else. A great deal of the this divide is due to countries that were part of the Warsaw Pact under Soviet Dictatorship. Why I am posting this comment about the USSR and something that was dismantled 20+ years ago? All of those countries are socially, technologically and economically degraded. This is incredibly important to understand why most of the world runs on computers that are 5,... 8,... 10+ years old computers. I was involved in importing old tech in the US to those backward countries. Those countries can not afford the Microsoft tax. That is why Linux has taken a firm hold over there. It is free. It is useful It runs very well on older tech and there is no MicroShaft tax.
Next lets go to China and the Pacific Rim. Again people think China is some sort of Super power. It is not. Yes they have their hot spots but when you have 600 million people under the poverty level (actually its a hell of a lot more poor, spin doctoring 101 here), you have issues. China has its own Linux version known as NeoKylin based on Ubuntu. There are a lot of cultural norms over there in the Pacific Rim and one of them is gambling which is not taboo. Video games have become the next cultural habit. It is estimated that over 26 million Chinese are addicted to video games. It is a cultural thing after all.
By the way... Android is Base on Unix and it is open sourced.
The other added advantage is to get out MicroShaft's thumb as well. These are some of the many reasons why Valve is trying to get the tools to create gaming on Linux for all.
In summary. Value is not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. There is BIG money involved. Hundreds of millions of people of untapped potential making billions of dollars just by developing gaming for Linux. Very Shrewd indeed.
This is how I do business. I think way out of the box and see if there is untapped potential on the market I am interested in investing. Value is doing the same thing.
Information below to verify my comments above.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/2...ldrens-computers-to-fight-internet-addiction/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gaming_in_China
https://geopoliticalfutures.com/china-is-still-really-poor/
Give me a link where longtime Linux users draw the conclusion that native Linux gaming development will DECREASE as a result of this. I guess I can believe others haven't thought it through.
Why would a developer making one now? Linux users already have WINE, yet there's been a small army of indie developers still making Linux clients. The reasons:
1. It takes almost no effort, depending on the engine, because they're designed to port to it. They don't have to do a giant overhaul to port it, they have to press a button.
2. The compatibility will be better than if someone were to use WINE.
3. They can mark in the store that it's Linux compatible, hence it gives them an extra 0.5 - 3% of sales for them.
4. The particular developer may like Linux.
None of that goes away if Linux users can run Windows games from parties that weren't porting to Linux to begin with. Developers don't need to port to Linux RIGHT NOW, yet they are anyway. WINE support has improved a lot over the years, yet did the number of native Linux games decrease?
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heatlesssun
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It's mentioned way too much in those threads for me to try to figure out who are the Linux fans. It's an obvious and reasonable thought even if you may not agree with it.
If there were ENOUGH developers creating native Linux games then I doubt almost six years into this we'd see Proton. For some time I've been pointing out the widening gap between Linux and Windows in game content. Obviously Proton is to help with that by making it dead simple to run as many Windows games as possible under Linux. I think at this point Valve didn't have much choice but to pursue this. But given that lack of content is the issue at hand here, yes, making it easier to run Windows games on Linux probably gives even some current Linux developers pause if they can save money on development costs and just deliver one binary for Windows and Linux. In fact I'm guessing some devs have already contacted Valve about this and asking them to include macOS under Proton as well, in theory it could work similarly, Valve even mentions it in their Proton blog post. All I am saying is that this would an initial reaction. Maybe Proton actually does significantly grow the Linux gamer base and make native Linux development more viable over time.
naib
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What can be said is doing nothing didn't bring many games... Quake, unreal etc and the odd company that really liked linux to add the effort
Valve kicked something by providing a games distribution channel
Valve kicked it again with the SteamOS and Steam machines but the lack of catalog wasn't attractive
They have again kicked it again via improving and integrating WINE
At each kick there has been an improvement either by companies producing native OR secondary companies providing porting services. This kick ... who knows I hope the uptake in users occurs and the update on developers actually considering linux ... What I do know is within 5min of this news about 10 people in the GoL channel went and bought DOOM, thats $$$ to iD and Valve for what is essencially a beta product. I want to rebuy my DoW back catelogue (I have all the DVD but can't import into steam... £30 isn't too bad for the best RTS ever!!!)
Think about the money flow, as long as Valve has $$$ that covers their dev time and equally keeping engineers coding its a win for them (otherwise they would be laying off staff). The more sales that occur and devhouses start seeing linux is viable they will start thinking about it as there is an untapped revenue stream. Even if they code for windows but test via this to provide the best linux experience then this is great! IF a game already uses vulkan they get the best performance so there is an incentive if the devhouse cares about linux but doesn't want to code. Then the final step is rebuild for linux
Valve kicked something by providing a games distribution channel
Valve kicked it again with the SteamOS and Steam machines but the lack of catalog wasn't attractive
They have again kicked it again via improving and integrating WINE
At each kick there has been an improvement either by companies producing native OR secondary companies providing porting services. This kick ... who knows I hope the uptake in users occurs and the update on developers actually considering linux ... What I do know is within 5min of this news about 10 people in the GoL channel went and bought DOOM, thats $$$ to iD and Valve for what is essencially a beta product. I want to rebuy my DoW back catelogue (I have all the DVD but can't import into steam... £30 isn't too bad for the best RTS ever!!!)
Think about the money flow, as long as Valve has $$$ that covers their dev time and equally keeping engineers coding its a win for them (otherwise they would be laying off staff). The more sales that occur and devhouses start seeing linux is viable they will start thinking about it as there is an untapped revenue stream. Even if they code for windows but test via this to provide the best linux experience then this is great! IF a game already uses vulkan they get the best performance so there is an incentive if the devhouse cares about linux but doesn't want to code. Then the final step is rebuild for linux