RTX 4xxx / RX 7xxx speculation

bananas1 said:
Sheesh is that really true? I thought it was primarily from covid-TSMC manufacturing issues and miners driving up prices. I've been really extending the life out of my 1070 by not gaming as much lately.
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Yeah, look at signatures. Some people here, like me, have 10-year-old PCs still kicking game dirt.

If you bought a 4-core, 8-thread CPU in 2012, and put enough RAM in it, the only stuff you had to upgrade was the storage and the video card, until now.

So everyone who did that, or something like it, now needs a complete new rig. There's no more upgrading headroom, and that goes for all gaming PCs made without support for resizable BAR, and realistically at this point, no PCIe 5.0.

This is the worst time to buy and the worst time to upgrade at the same time, even if the supply lines weren't fucked up.
 
You're right because I was also looking for a new Ryzen 6000 laptop once they're available! It looks like I won't be waiting for the next gen of gpus, though.
 
Axman said:
Yeah, look at signatures. Some people here, like me, have 10-year-old PCs still kicking game dirt.

If you bought a 4-core, 8-thread CPU in 2012, and put enough RAM in it, the only stuff you had to upgrade was the storage and the video card, until now.

So everyone who did that, or something like it, now needs a complete new rig. There's no more upgrading headroom, and that goes for all gaming PCs made without support for resizable BAR, and realistically at this point, no PCIe 5.0.

This is the worst time to buy and the worst time to upgrade at the same time, even if the supply lines weren't fucked up.
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Well if you upgraded the storage and GPU already then you only need a CPU/mobo. Which isn't bad at all.
 
Furious_Styles said:
Well if you upgraded the storage and GPU already then you only need a CPU/mobo. Which isn't bad at all.
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Nah..

At 10 years the PSU is becoming a risk -> PSU needs upgrade

GPU upgrade for a 2012 PC means there's something like a 1070-1080 bought around 2017 -> GPU needs upgrade.

Modern GPU's/CPU's require a high airflow mesh case -> case needs upgrade.

Memory will be DDR3 -> also needs upgrade.

Modern CPU's require better cooling -> CPU cooler needs upgrade
 
Depends on the case. Antec 900 came out in 2006 and its airflow is probably on-par with most generic mesh cases these days. Maybe better, it came with a lot of fans.

Antec900.png
 
Lepardi said:
Nah..

At 10 years the PSU is becoming a risk -> PSU needs upgrade

GPU upgrade for a 2012 PC means there's something like a 1070-1080 bought around 2017 -> GPU needs upgrade.

Modern GPU's/CPU's require a high airflow mesh case -> case needs upgrade.

Memory will be DDR3 -> also needs upgrade.

Modern CPU's require better cooling -> CPU cooler needs upgrade
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I forgot the memory but we don't know his gpu, he could easily have a 30 series right now. PSU might not be from 2012. And for cooling that all depends on what CPU he gets.
 
havoc lingers said:
That's too bad. I was hoping this to be available this year.
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I don't think any of that will happen...
https://www.gpumag.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4000-series/
The best models go first and the weaker models for the masses probably only next year....
What I'm reading looks great and it seems that there will finally be some shift in the middle segment, which has not been any so far, only the high end has brought progress....but probably those cards won’t be cheap regardless of mining and miners....
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Depends on the case. Antec 900 came out in 2006 and its airflow is probably on-par with most generic mesh cases these days. Maybe better, it came with a lot of fans.

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Without derailing the thread too much, I disagree. The 10 year ruled applied to me, I had an Antec P180 and I realized it just wasn't competitive compared to newer cases. I replaced it almost exactly 10 years later. It lasted two builds, but it was so outdated in terms of quality of machined parts, small features like cable management (almost none for the motherboard...), began to rust, not optimally using its space, etc. I guess on some benchmark it could have matched a modern case with airflow, but it didn't even have 140mm fans. It's just an old design for an old era, and I felt I really stretched its life into 2015. It began to be a pain to work with.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
Depends on the case. Antec 900 came out in 2006 and its airflow is probably on-par with most generic mesh cases these days. Maybe better, it came with a lot of fans.

Yep, Still rocking mine got it in 08. But The 4070 rumors' sound good. But i think i'll try for an 4080 based on the current rumors'. Not that impressed with the 12 gb on the x70 if it holds true.
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Lepardi said:
Nah..
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I don't use it much, it's a backup PC that I mostly use when I need the giant monitors to process a bunch of photos. It can game OK but there's no point in putting more money in it. My laptops actually edit media faster, but that desktop is more comfortable to use for long sessions.

Even the case, which is a very nice Lian Li, doesn't have modern connections and needs old-school drive bay adapters. Not going to keep that around I think.

But man, 10 years? Crazy. Crazy that PC gamers got a stretch that long with basic upgrades.

It's not a bad thing to say that the whole thing needs to be replaced. And having a PC that lasted that long has given me a much broader perspectives on when things are good times to buy, and when not to.

I could buy a 5800X3D, 32 gigs of good ram, a fully-featured motherboard, and maybe even a RX6900XT, new case, new PSU, new cooler, and yeah, have the best bang-for-the-buck machine today. I could even reuse, I guess, the fans, they're new. Noctua. Savings!

But I'm not gonna. Because it's the end of the line for that ecosystem of parts, and we're, what, 6, 9 months away from the next generation launching?

Don't buy now unless you have to. This is a bad time, and we're possibly looking at a new level of performance and upgradability that might actually go for another five years or more that's just around the corner. Even if you plan on selling everything off the minute the new stuff is available, you're gonna take a bath on the used market.

I mean, I guess you could buy a gaming laptop if you really needed; laptops are always running behind their desktop counterparts, and they kind of offer a better value right now if you're starting from the ground up.
 
Axman said:
I don't use it much, it's a backup PC that I mostly use when I need the giant monitors to process a bunch of photos. It can game OK but there's no point in putting more money in it. My laptops actually edit media faster, but that desktop is more comfortable to use for long sessions.

Even the case, which is a very nice Lian Li, doesn't have modern connections and needs old-school drive bay adapters. Not going to keep that around I think.

But man, 10 years? Crazy. Crazy that PC gamers got a stretch that long with basic upgrades.

It's not a bad thing to say that the whole thing needs to be replaced. And having a PC that lasted that long has given me a much broader perspectives on when things are good times to buy, and when not to.

I could buy a 5800X3D, 32 gigs of good ram, a fully-featured motherboard, and maybe even a RX6900XT, new case, new PSU, new cooler, and yeah, have the best bang-for-the-buck machine today. I could even reuse, I guess, the fans, they're new. Noctua. Savings!

But I'm not gonna. Because it's the end of the line for that ecosystem of parts, and we're, what, 6, 9 months away from the next generation launching?

Don't buy now unless you have to. This is a bad time, and we're possibly looking at a new level of performance and upgradability that might actually go for another five years or more that's just around the corner. Even if you plan on selling everything off the minute the new stuff is available, you're gonna take a bath on the used market.

I mean, I guess you could buy a gaming laptop if you really needed; laptops are always running behind their desktop counterparts, and they kind of offer a better value right now if you're starting from the ground up.
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Yeah I'm personally waiting on RL and Zen 4 before I upgrade, but I'm also on a pretty modern computer. With stuff ~10 years old any upgrade you do will be huge.
 
I'm interested to see if they do the FE cards this time around. The design on the 30XX was pretty cool and resulted in cards significantly smaller than anything available from partners. I likely won't upgrade this time around, but if I did I'd want it to have a similar power envelope to my 3080 and fit in an ITX case. I don't care if they want to push out 900W cards. People will buy them, but they'll be a bit silly for most. As long as the performance of the ~300W cards keeps improving, that's what I care about most.
 
Furious_Styles said:
With stuff ~10 years old any upgrade you do will be huge.
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It's less than you might think. I have newer computers, too, and all of the ones with NVMe boot drives (including the old PC which miraculously has BIOS support for it, thank you, you weirdo Azrock nerds) feel about the same in terms of most use. The only time I notice the old CPU bottlenecking things is when I'm doing something like batch photo processing. Which, ironically, is what I use it the most for, because it's hooked up to a large 4K display.

The truth is that Intel wasn't doing much in those in-between years, so that i7 4770 was good enough. I don't think we're going to have a stretch like that again, but it's neat that it happened.

NVMe alone isn't enough anymore, though. From now on, anything without Shared Access Memory and fast PCIe for Direct Storage is going to fall under the low bar for responsiveness. Kind of like how any PC running on a spinning platter hard drive, no matter how modern it is otherwise, is just a dog.

Epos7 said:
I likely won't upgrade this time around, but if I did I'd want it to have a similar power envelope to my 3080 and fit in an ITX case.
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I'm pretty sure outside of the flagship parts, AMD is going to have cool and efficient this round. And not by a small margin.
 
Axman said:
It's less than you might think. I have newer computers, too, and all of the ones with NVMe boot drives (including the old PC which miraculously has BIOS support for it, thank you, you weirdo Azrock nerds) feel about the same in terms of most use. The only time I notice the old CPU bottlenecking things is when I'm doing something like batch photo processing. Which, ironically, is what I use it the most for, because it's hooked up to a large 4K display.

The truth is that Intel wasn't doing much in those in-between years, so that i7 4770 was good enough. I don't think we're going to have a stretch like that again, but it's neat that it happened.

NVMe alone isn't enough anymore, though. From now on, anything without Shared Access Memory and fast PCIe for Direct Storage is going to fall under the low bar for responsiveness. Kind of like how any PC running on a spinning platter hard drive, no matter how modern it is otherwise, is just a dog.



I'm pretty sure outside of the flagship parts, AMD is going to have cool and efficient this round. And not by a small margin.
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I'm not really talking about NVME/direct storage because those aren't really in any games yet. I just assumed you have a good SSD which right now is pretty damn close in load times for the vast majority of games. It's the CPU where you will get MUCH higher lows and higher highs. A friend of mine is still on a 4790K and it certainly does still perform well in most games. Even in Elden Ring he hasn't complained, but that is capped @60.
 
Furious_Styles said:
I'm not really talking about NVME/direct storage because those aren't really in any games yet.
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Ah, but they will be. And PCIe 5.0 will be a big help when they do gain traction.

I will concede that it's possible for something to price-shock the GPU market before the next generation drops. It's possible that a bunch of miners will flood things again right before 4xxx/7xxx. And maybe then it'll be a good idea to pick up a latest-generation part as a placeholder.

But we're still seeing RX 580 8GBs selling for $250-$300 (I generally think of it as the guideline part for gaming cards that are also viable mining cards, a sort of bellwether GPU) and that means things are still not good. Not terrible, I've seen them sell for over $700, but we are talking about cards that retailed for $150-$200 new years ago.
 
bananas1 said:
Without derailing the thread too much, I disagree. The 10 year ruled applied to me, I had an Antec P180 and I realized it just wasn't competitive compared to newer cases. I replaced it almost exactly 10 years later. It lasted two builds, but it was so outdated in terms of quality of machined parts, small features like cable management (almost none for the motherboard...), began to rust, not optimally using its space, etc. I guess on some benchmark it could have matched a modern case with airflow, but it didn't even have 140mm fans. It's just an old design for an old era, and I felt I really stretched its life into 2015. It began to be a pain to work with.
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Plus cases back then had all the hard drive cages basically blocking the airflow from the front fans in addition to thick cables everywhere due to no concern for cable management behind the motherboard. I can't possibly see a case from this era being competitive with properly designed modern cases and the hot, power-hungry parts we have now.
 
Exactly!
Sir Beregond said:
Plus cases back then had all the hard drive cages basically blocking the airflow from the front fans in addition to thick cables everywhere due to no concern for cable management behind the motherboard. I can't possibly see a case from this era being competitive with properly designed modern cases and the hot, power-hungry parts we have now.
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Exactly! And those drive cages were a desired feature back then, because before those the drives had to be screwed into a large metal contraption that wouldn't move. And they were usually sharp and hard to work around. The idea of cable management wasn't really a topic of conversation 15+ years ago as there was barely a community for computer aesthetics. Fans back then weren't even as quiet as they are now. Systems didn't draw nearly as much power so the main aesthetic concern was noise. That's why moving the PSU to the bottom was such a revelation because it offered isolation to put more case fans to work on a smaller amount of air across the cpu back when cpu coolers were relatively small. There are just so many of these small changes that make even something as primitive as a case obsolete. For me, the biggest change is simply having parts that are well machined and well designed so I don't have to wrestle with jagged edges and sharp metal objects everywhere trying to defend itself by drawing blood from me!
 
bananas1 said:
The idea of cable management wasn't really a topic of conversation 15+ years ago as there was barely a community for computer aesthetics.
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Oh no, go back through the cases or casemod sub and look around. Cable management was a bigger deal back then because it was harder to do. People would repin power supplies because modular PSUs were just being introduced and they still kinda sucked.

People specifically picked cases with panels behind the motherboard in order to have more options for cable management back then.
 
Cable management when it was a challenge, not just astheatic but physical to actually do was a topic at least since the early 2000s, people were really please with SATA for example, because of the much simpler/smaller cable.

Noise was a big concern, but overclocking was all the rage ~20 years ago no ?, that was the 1700+xp and the pentium 3 2400 performing over $1000 cpu with an overclock and some celeron being superbe deal, with people talking about which weeks were the best from serial numbers and so on. Temps were also a concern for many.
 
Axman said:
Oh no, go back through the cases or casemod sub and look around. Cable management was a bigger deal back then because it was harder to do. People would repin power supplies because modular PSUs were just being introduced and they still kinda sucked.

People specifically picked cases with panels behind the motherboard in order to have more options for cable management back then.
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Yes cable management was a very big deal back in 2006....this was the best in class at the time, I remember because I bought one after reading this review
 
Yeah back in the day I got very good at IDE cable origami, now that is a skill lost to time. Plus planning your molex cable runs so you had the correct amount of plugs to look good, and then zip tie the rest out of the way.
 
bananas1 said:
Yes cable management was a very big deal back in 2006....this was the best in class at the time, I remember because I bought one after reading this review
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So you don't remember a thing, because some dude didn't make a thing of it, means it wasn't a thing?

I guess I didn't get solder burns back then, either. Cables and my skin just did that.
 
Lepardi said:
Nah..

At 10 years the PSU is becoming a risk -> PSU needs upgrade

GPU upgrade for a 2012 PC means there's something like a 1070-1080 bought around 2017 -> GPU needs upgrade.

Modern GPU's/CPU's require a high airflow mesh case -> case needs upgrade.

Memory will be DDR3 -> also needs upgrade.

Modern CPU's require better cooling -> CPU cooler needs upgrade
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This is worth highlighting. I have a Fractal Design Define S. It is fairly good at keeping things cool and quiet. But each generation of GPU has gotten a bit more hot and loud. I've been using the **70s since the GTX 670. The GTX 1070 was dead silent, even at load with ambient temperatures in the high 80s F. The RTX 3070, not so much. It doesn't get very loud nor very hot, but it certainly is getting noisier and hotter than previous cards.

I'll see how the RTX 4070 is. It might push head/noise further and I may have to consider a new case if I want it to be quiet. A good case design does matter and generally a good case will last you 5-7 years, but generally after a decade you might want to consider upgrading it.
 
I'm rocking an ancient Zen 1 @ 3.8GHz and a RTX 2080 @ 2GHz GPU and 8000 absolute memory clock. AT THIS POINT i do not see any upgrade being worth it. That said I play at VR rez for my gaming and when I render anything I could care less. It is a 16 thread system and I used to have single cores that rendered for days!
I will buy next gen regardless of brand when DDR5 is fully flowing and be happy.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
kopite: 4090, twice as fast as 3090, 450W, mid-July.

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...0w-tdp-is-allegedly-twice-as-fast-as-rtx-3090

Real skeptical on this one.
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Let's say this, it's not impossible, but it's also not likely. Have we seen gen on gen double performance in the last 10-15 years? I guess it's possible, but it would be one hell of an engineering feat. Actually, I take it back, based on resolution it might be 60 to 100 percent increase. If you look at performance of the 2080 vs. the 3080 at 4k the difference is generally around 60-100 % uplift. Obviously, that goes down with resolution.
 
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It seems like they are leaving more room for ‘Ti’ models this time. A full chip 4090 Ti should have a decent performance bump if the rumours are true.

The Ti models from this generation didn’t make much sense other than give them an excuse to charge more per card.
 
Decko87 said:
Let's say this, it's not impossible, but it's also not likely. Have we seen gen on gen double performance in the last 10-15 years? I guess it's possible, but it would be one hell of an engineering feat. Actually, I take it back, based on resolution it might be 60 to 100 percent increase. If you look at performance of the 2080 vs. the 3080 at 4k the difference is generally around 60-100 % uplift. Obviously, that goes down with resolution.
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Depend how it is calculated, according to this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/im923c/an_analysis_of_generational_performance_gains_for/

Mid-range pascal was the only 100% generation bump saw since the 400-series, with the higher end being at 60-70%

According to this a 3080 Ti:
relative-performance_3840-2160.png


Is almost doubling a 2080 8 GB at 4K (+81%), the regular 3080 being around 65% which is about the same has the pascal generation bump if we make abstraction of what the actual price happened to be.

The fact that the pro line of card seem to have tripled their performance with double the power, I imagine the regular line if they give a 50% power boost could double or so the performance.

I too my feeling if they speak 2x3090 it will be a +81% on a 50 games at 4K average but that you can built a subset of game large enough (13 or so, some of them RTX on) for which you are +211% at 4K
 
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Maybe it'll be a "Jensen 2X", not a real 2X. A real 2X was going from the FX 5800 Ultra to the 6800 Ultra, or from the 7800 GTX to the 8800 GTX.
 
XenIneX said:
Or the yields aren't doing so hot, and they're leaving lots of room for binning to manage defects.
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That could be true too, but even without that with Ampere we had 3080, 3080 12 GB, 3080 Ti, 3090 and 3090 Ti all using GA102. If the rumours are true this time 4090 is AD102 and 4080 is AD103. Leaves a lot of room for a 4090 Ti and maybe a Titan.
 
Word on the street is that we might get some sort of an announcement in the next week. I was about to buy a 3090ti (I still might) based on what is announced. The 4090 based on leaked specs I feel will be ~30-40% faster than a 3090ti based on FPS. Obviously certain games will either be lower or higher than that. Price wise it will be similar 1800-2000 and use around the same power 480watt. I don't see what the big fuss is over power. I have a 1200watt PSU that I bought a long time ago to run Tri-Fire and my system would pull around 900-1000 watts. 650-700 watts and running 65-75c doesn't seem bad to me.
 
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