Robots Aren't Destroying Enough Jobs

mesyn191

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You placed "Redistributive taxation"

I don't see it any of the posts I wrote to you. What is the post number?

And you keep arguing points that i never brought up.
Read post #37 which was what you replied to. You're missing the context of my reply. If you're going to reply along similar lines you have to keep context straight. If you can't or won't do that then please stop replying.

I simply said the TWO are not based on the same principles THEREFORE they are opposing
It doesn't matter if they're opposing in the least. Not even within the context of your own posts.

Heck Communism and Totalitarianism are opposing as all get out but Stalin made the 2 work. Even long after he died it worked. It fell apart in the end of course but if what you were saying had any merit it never should've worked at all. Not even for a instant.

Dual economy means there are 2 not one.....that's not a blend.
Yes it is. Dual economy is a term that synonymous with a mixed economy. The 2 are used interchangeably frequently.

As I said in my last post i'm done. This is pointless arguing over something that really has nothing more to do with the article but more to do with your wanting to talk about how your right and i'm wrong about politics and government. Say what you will but I won't replay anymore.
Your first post in this thread, #39, was political. If you really don't want to talk about politics you shouldn't talk about politics period.
 

tetris42

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the alternative being do nothing and face the consequences which will be a recession that is a hundred times worse than the real estate crash in the 2000s or even the not so great depression.
Yeah, that one. That's the one I'm betting on.
 

SomeoneElse

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I don't see it any of the posts I wrote to you. What is the post number?


Read post #37 which was what you replied to. You're missing the context of my reply. If you're going to reply along similar lines you have to keep context straight. If you can't or won't do that then please stop replying.


It doesn't matter if they're opposing in the least. Not even within the context of your own posts.

Heck Communism and Totalitarianism are opposing as all get out but Stalin made the 2 work. Even long after he died it worked. It fell apart in the end of course but if what you were saying had any merit it never should've worked at all. Not even for a instant.


Yes it is. Dual economy is a term that synonymous with a mixed economy. The 2 are used interchangeably frequently.


Your first post in this thread, #39, was political. If you really don't want to talk about politics you shouldn't talk about politics period.

Post # 42 You "quoted" me as saying such but that was never placed original text.
My first post was #21 before you started in about socialism (you can't even get that right). I replayed saying they were different by deifnition and then you turned it into a argument over "im right and you are wrong" about definitions.
 
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Gigus Fire

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You have no idea have you. Also why are some of the most successful countries in the world socialist with a broad welfare services? You have locked yourself into the view that its evil. And I bet it has to do with the fear of someone else getting something from you. Instead of thinking about it goes both ways.

And I assume you use an insurance company. What is the foundation of insurance again? :D
Socialism is evil. It's robbing from a group of people through taxes to pay for others. What gives anyone the right to rob from anyone? The idea that labor is owned by the laborers sounds great, but it doesn't empower the laborers, but the government. The political elite in every single instance of communism and socialism have then become the elites and ruled over the masses. High taxes are one thing. Government owned businesses as the norm and setting salaries through government is awful. Economically wise, they've all failed after killing many people.
If you're saying that having a welfare state is a good thing, then i can point out that in the US we have a lot of social services designed to help the needy.
 

M76

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Socialism is evil. It's robbing from a group of people through taxes to pay for others. What gives anyone the right to rob from anyone? The idea that labor is owned by the laborers sounds great, but it doesn't empower the laborers, but the government. The political elite in every single instance of communism and socialism have then become the elites and ruled over the masses. High taxes are one thing. Government owned businesses as the norm and setting salaries through government is awful. Economically wise, they've all failed after killing many people.
If you're saying that having a welfare state is a good thing, then i can point out that in the US we have a lot of social services designed to help the needy.
Robbing lol, as if roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc weren't all run from taxes. Let's say there is no government. Who will pay for police then? Or the wealthy will have private security to protect them, and the less wealthy can just be raped and murdered?
 

thejokker

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I don't think you really understand what national socialism is.

http://www.differencebetween.net/mi...ces-between-socialism-and-national-socialism/

Give this a read and then come back to the discussion.

Overly simplified:

Socialism = everything for the good of the people
National Socialism = everything for the good of the state
You do realize that there exists a controversy regarding whether fascism belongs on the right or left of the political spectrum. Because of the stigma associated with Nazi Germany and fascism neither the right or the left want to claim ownership. Fascism is based upon a strong central government. The American Right wants a de-centralized government. Fascism permits private ownership of business that is controlled through heavy regulation by the government. The American Right wants private ownership AND limited interference and regulation from the government. Nazi Germany was controlled by a single political party. The American left wants to establish a single policy defined by "political correctness". The American left has given rise to the AntiFa movement which functions like the Sturmabteilung to intimidate the opposition and enforce "political correctness".

Clearly the American Left more closely resembles Fascism despite arguments to the contrary from the left.
 

Shintai

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Socialism is evil. It's robbing from a group of people through taxes to pay for others. What gives anyone the right to rob from anyone? The idea that labor is owned by the laborers sounds great, but it doesn't empower the laborers, but the government. The political elite in every single instance of communism and socialism have then become the elites and ruled over the masses. High taxes are one thing. Government owned businesses as the norm and setting salaries through government is awful. Economically wise, they've all failed after killing many people.
If you're saying that having a welfare state is a good thing, then i can point out that in the US we have a lot of social services designed to help the needy.

You act like nothing comes back from it. And again, why are these countries more successful than the US where the ego rules? Maybe because its for everyones benefit, even your own? Everyone earning more, having more=you get even more.

That's right, its an investment, And the US is still stuck with a 50s mentality. No wonder the rest of the world is racing past, while you try and hold on to unskilled labour jobs and a mindset belonging in another century.
 

thejokker

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LOL nooope. You're just making stuff up now.

Uh no, you don't remember Bear Sterns, the Housing Bubble, and the Global Credit Bubble? The Euro and Oil prices were reactions to those events.


Yeah growth was crap because he couldn't do much to pursue growth policies. The closest he came was the ARRA but that was half tax cuts! If Congress wants to knee cap the President surprise surprise he can't do anything. And they knew he'd get the blame for everything too: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/31/the...gy_for_everything_do_nothing_and_blame_obama/

SMB optimism started to drop in April BTW.
The housing bubble crashed almost a year before the banking crisis. Bear Sterns collapsed roughly 2 months after the collapse in the price of oil and the euro. You might remember that Bush was criticized in 2006 and 2007 for trying to weaken the dollar as a response to the global credit bubble. The Europeans pursued an opposite strategy and in doing so created a Euro Bubble which in turn created an Oil Bubble which crashed starting in early July 2008. Within a matter of weeks capital holdings of banks across the world evaporated with the decline in the Euro and Oil.

This is easy to verify. Follow the weekly price of the Oil and the value of the Euro from January 2008 to December 2008. You will see a sharp drop in the value of a major currency and simultaneous sharp drop in the price of the worlds most valuable commodity. It takes little imagination to appreciate how much money vanished as a result and by consequence the sudden disappearance of the assets which was keeping those failed banks afloat.
 

vegeta535

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You act like nothing comes back from it. And again, why are these countries more successful than the US where the ego rules? Maybe because its for everyones benefit, even your own? Everyone earning more, having more=you get even more.

That's right, its an investment, And the US is still stuck with a 50s mentality. No wonder the rest of the world is racing past, while you try and hold on to unskilled labour jobs and a mindset belonging in another century.
Who care if everyone earns more when everything is taxed to shit? How much do Mr Denmark guy pay for his house with that negative mortgage? How do you like paying over 2x the price for a basic car then what it sells for in the states. For such a oil rich country you still pay more then twice what we pay for a gallon of gas. Most people in these socialist counties live basic lives compared to Americans. In America you get back as much as you put in. If you don't want to put effort into making a better life for yourself than that is on you.
 

thejokker

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Robbing lol, as if roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc weren't all run from taxes. Let's say there is no government. Who will pay for police then? Or the wealthy will have private security to protect them, and the less wealthy can just be raped and murdered?
Limited government is good; big government tends towards corruption and Tyranny. There is a huge difference between redistributing wealth from the productive to the unproductive AND creating a system whereby everyone has an equal opportunity to "earn" wealth and privilege.

Socialism is evil; the American Capitalist system has created more wealth and prosperity for the working class than any other system in the history of the world. The American Republic, and by consequence the American working class, was the inspiration for Karl Marx who took it one step too far and which in turn lead to the enslavement and death of millions and millions...
 

Shintai

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Who care if everyone earns more when everything is taxed to shit? How much do Mr Denmark guy pay for his house with that negative mortgage? How do you like paying over 2x the price for a basic car then what it sells for in the states. For such a oil rich country you still pay more then twice what we pay for a gallon of gas. Most people in these socialist counties live basic lives compared to Americans. In America you get back as much as you put in. If you don't want to put effort into making a better life for yourself than that is on you.

The average Joe in Denmark earn a lot more than the average Joe in the US. That means more money for fun, specially products made outside.
 

Shintai

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Limited government is good; big government tends towards corruption and Tyranny. There is a huge difference between redistributing wealth from the productive to the unproductive AND creating a system whereby everyone has an equal opportunity to "earn" wealth and privilege.

Socialism is evil; the American Capitalist system has created more wealth and prosperity for the working class than any other system in the history of the world. The American Republic, and by consequence the American working class, was the inspiration for Karl Marx who took it one step too far and which in turn lead to the enslavement and death of millions and millions...

Your working class is rather tiny then isn't it? That's right, no increased wealth since the 70s.
1200px-US_productivity_and_real_wages.jpg
 

NeoNemesis

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You do realize that there exists a controversy regarding whether fascism belongs on the right or left of the political spectrum. Because of the stigma associated with Nazi Germany and fascism neither the right or the left want to claim ownership. Fascism is based upon a strong central government. The American Right wants a de-centralized government. Fascism permits private ownership of business that is controlled through heavy regulation by the government. The American Right wants private ownership AND limited interference and regulation from the government. Nazi Germany was controlled by a single political party. The American left wants to establish a single policy defined by "political correctness". The American left has given rise to the AntiFa movement which functions like the Sturmabteilung to intimidate the opposition and enforce "political correctness".

Clearly the American Left more closely resembles Fascism despite arguments to the contrary from the left.

One of the first things Hilter did when he got into power was privatize banks and crush unions.

The only reason 'controversy' exists is because people don't understand that socialism is not related to national socialism
 

King of Heroes

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Robbing lol, as if roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc weren't all run from taxes. Let's say there is no government. Who will pay for police then? Or the wealthy will have private security to protect them, and the less wealthy can just be raped and murdered?

I've been reading a book by David T. Beito called the Voluntary City. It largely talks about how communities (mainly low-income and immigrant) pooled their resources to create the original, private, services that are now handled by state government. One example was law enforcement before the state police force existed. It IS possible for people to provide their own security, along with pretty much every other service that the state now provides. The big difference between then and now is that back then communities (particularly low-income communities) had a FAR stronger sense of collective, mutual survival (usually based on ethnic and/or religious ties). I feel like that doesn't really exist today (again, in low-income communities), at least not at the level necessary for that phenomenon to be replicated. However, if pushed to the brink far enough, it might be possible for that sense to return.

Its a fascinating read, I would recommend checking it out.
 

thejokker

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You act like nothing comes back from it. And again, why are these countries more successful than the US where the ego rules? Maybe because its for everyones benefit, even your own? Everyone earning more, having more=you get even more.

That's right, its an investment, And the US is still stuck with a 50s mentality. No wonder the rest of the world is racing past, while you try and hold on to unskilled labour jobs and a mindset belonging in another century.
Wrong.... Wrong... Wrong...

America leads Norway in wealth generation, technology and scientific achievement, and military power. America has given us flight, computers, a moon walk and a robotic rover on Mars. What has Norway done in comparison? In the last 100 years America has rescued twice Europe from self-destruction. "We" rescued Europe (and Norway) and rebuilt Europe from smoldering ashes to what it is today.

Today the European economy is tittering on the edge of collapse and it's historic culture is being ravaged by unrestricted immigration of a culture with anti-liberal values. Despite this we have to endure liberal sycophants wo want to parrot the lectures of their marxist professors and advocate following the lead of the Europeans so we can march like lemmings to political and economic suicide. Sorry; not going to happen...
 

Shintai

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Wrong.... Wrong... Wrong...

America leads Norway in wealth generation, technology and scientific achievement, and military power. America has given us flight, computers, a moon walk and a robotic rover on Mars. What has Norway done in comparison? In the last 100 years America has rescued twice Europe from self-destruction. "We" rescued Europe (and Norway) and rebuilt Europe from smoldering ashes to what it is today.

Today the European economy is tittering on the edge of collapse and it's historic culture is being ravaged by unrestricted immigration of a culture with anti-liberal values. Despite this we have to endure liberal sycophants wo want to parrot the lectures of their marxist professors and advocate following the lead of the Europeans so we can march like lemmings to political and economic suicide. Sorry; not going to happen...

Do they? And why do you even keep mentioning Norway? Norway is part of ESA, so they wouldn´t go into space themselves either. But its funny you mention the US space program, the one that was pretty much run by german scientists. And the computer was invented by a englishman called Charles Babbage.

Rebuild Europe? You mean the Marshall plan with a current value of around 130B$? Wasn't it the US that just wanted to profit from the war until they got caught? And then after they lacked trade partners.

And funny you talk about debt with the US debt level and plans for tax cuts. That's going to be really funny.
 

NeoNemesis

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Wrong.... Wrong... Wrong...

America leads Norway in wealth generation, technology and scientific achievement, and military power. America has given us flight, computers, a moon walk and a robotic rover on Mars. What has Norway done in comparison? In the last 100 years America has rescued twice Europe from self-destruction. "We" rescued Europe (and Norway) and rebuilt Europe from smoldering ashes to what it is today.

Today the European economy is tittering on the edge of collapse and it's historic culture is being ravaged by unrestricted immigration of a culture with anti-liberal values. Despite this we have to endure liberal sycophants wo want to parrot the lectures of their marxist professors and advocate following the lead of the Europeans so we can march like lemmings to political and economic suicide. Sorry; not going to happen...

You're talking about a country with a population of 5 million versus a country with a population of 320 million.

Why don't you compare it to the UK or Germany?
 

thejokker

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One of the first things Hilter did when he got into power was privatize banks and crush unions.

The only reason 'controversy' exists is because people don't understand that socialism is not related to national socialism
Sorry but that is nonsense. Banks were heavily regulated and controlled by the central government. You realize that Nazi policies included Government provided healthcare? Your understanding of Nazi Germany is "incomplete". Maybe you should crack open a few books...
 

Kamber

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Some thoughtful posts in this thread; I appreciate the perspectives and discussion!
 

Shintai

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Sorry but that is nonsense. Banks were heavily regulated and controlled by the central government. You realize that Nazi policies included Government provided healthcare? Your understanding of Nazi Germany is "incomplete". Maybe you should crack open a few books...

Wow is public healthcare now Nazism?

Maybe you missed that it was all about dismantling the difference between the middle class and the elite. Isnt that what Trump for example got voted in on?
 

thejokker

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You're talking about a country with a population of 5 million versus a country with a population of 320 million.

Why don't you compare it to the UK or Germany?
Maybe you should not have provided Norway as a model to emulate without a better understanding of the big picture. Without America and without the prosperity generated by a capitalist system Germany and the UK would be third world countries after the devastation of WW2.
 

Shintai

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Maybe you should not have provided Norway as a model to emulate without a better understanding of the big picture. Without America and without the prosperity generated by a capitalist system Germany and the UK would be third world countries after the devastation of WW2.

And the US would be what with all its trade partners that didn't exist then?

Now see, it is funny. The US invested in someone else to make more money themselves. The past americans was smarter than the present. Just as its a good investment to invest in other people in your country.
 

NeoNemesis

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Maybe you should not have provided Norway as a model to emulate without a better understanding of the big picture. Without America and without the prosperity generated by a capitalist system Germany and the UK would be third world countries after the devastation of WW2.

When did I provide Noway as a model of anything? I mentioned Canada in a previous post because that's where I'm from.

Wow is public healthcare now Nazism?

Maybe you missed that it was all about dismantling the difference between the middle class and the elite. Isnt that what Trump for example got voted in on?

It certainly looks that way, who would have thought?!?!?!

Honestly there is an excuse for everything.
 

thejokker

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Wow is public healthcare now Nazism?
National Socialists... The more one studies Nazi Germany the more one comes to realize that the American Left is closer to the Fascist model than the American Right...

Your history kung fu is very weak...
 

thejokker

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When did I provide Noway as a model of anything? I mentioned Canada in a previous post because that's where I'm from.

It certainly looks that way, who would have thought?!?!?!
Sorry but your "partner" was using Norway as a model. All you liberals look alike...
 

Shintai

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National Socialists... The more one studies Nazi Germany the more one comes to realize that the American Left is closer to the Fascist model than the American Right...

Your history kung fu is very weak...

I recommend you look up Völkisch equality.

Just as you couldn't even get your inventions right.
 

thejokker

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And the US would be what with all its trade partners that didn't exist then?

Now see, it is funny. The US invested in someone else to make more money themselves. The past americans was smarter than the present. Just as its a good investment to invest in other people in your country.
Do they? And why do you even keep mentioning Norway? Norway is part of ESA, so they wouldn´t go into space themselves either. But its funny you mention the US space program, the one that was pretty much run by german scientists. And the computer was invented by a englishman called Charles Babbage.

Rebuild Europe? You mean the Marshall plan with a current value of around 130B$? Wasn't it the US that just wanted to profit from the war until they got caught? And then after they lacked trade partners.

And funny you talk about debt with the US debt level and plans for tax cuts. That's going to be really funny.
Babbage invented a "mechanical" computer programed by Lady Lovelace and the greeks and romans built similar mechanically programmed devices... The electronic computer invented by Americans is exponentially more powerful...
 

Shintai

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Babbage invented a "mechanical" computer programed by Lady Lovelace and the greeks and romans built similar mechanically programmed devices... The electronic computer invented by Americans is exponentially more powerful...

So the US didn't invent the computer. Thanks.

And good thing we danes invented Insulin for you.
 

thejokker

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I recommend you look up Völkisch equality.

Just as you couldn't even get your inventions right.
Kind of like how liberals want to define who is a racist and who is not? Kind of like how liberals want to suppress those who are not "diverse" and how liberals want to separate (segregate) everybody according to race and reward those groups as they see fit? Contrary to how the American Right wants to establish a color-blind" society based upon the teachings and solutions of Dr. Martin Luther King who preached integration and judging people not by the color of their skin?

The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds...
 

thejokker

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So the US didn't invent the computer. Thanks.

And good thing we danes invented Insulin for you.
We invented the electronic computer.

From Wikipedia:

The Nobel Prize committee in 1923 credited the practical extraction of insulin to a team at the University of Toronto and awarded the Nobel Prize to two men: Frederick Banting and J.J.R. Macleod.[88] They were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1923 for the discovery of insulin. Banting, insulted that Best was not mentioned, shared his prize with him, and Macleod immediately shared his with James Collip. The patent for insulin was sold to the University of Toronto for one half-dollar.

The primary structure of insulin was determined by British molecular biologist Frederick Sanger.[84] It was the first protein to have its sequence be determined. He was awarded the 1958 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for this work.

In 1969, after decades of work, Dorothy Hodgkin determined the spatial conformation of the molecule, the so-called tertiary structure, by means of X-ray diffraction studies. She had been awarded a Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1964 for the development of crystallography.

Rosalyn Sussman Yalow received the 1977 Nobel Prize in Medicine for the development of the radioimmunoassay for insulin.

George Minot, co-recipient of the 1934 Nobel Prize for the development of the first effective treatment for pernicious anemia, had diabetes mellitus. Dr. William Castle observed that the 1921 discovery of insulin, arriving in time to keep Minot alive, was therefore also responsible for the discovery of a cure for pernicious anemia.
 

NeoNemesis

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Kind of like how liberals want to define who is a racist and who is not? Kind of like how liberals want to suppress those who are not "diverse" and how liberals want to separate (segregate) everybody according to race and reward those groups as they see fit? Contrary to how the American Right wants to establish a color-blind" society based upon the teachings and solutions of Dr. Martin Luther King who preached integration and judging people not by the color of their skin?

The hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds...

CaYQ2SpUcAAIiof.jpg


Equality only works if everyone starts with the same advantage.
 
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thejokker

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Typical...
The American way is for everybody to be responsible for themselves. If the kid in the "reality" slide is too stupid to get out of the hole than he owns his hole. If they are too stupid to stand on a taller crate than that is on him. Equity as pictured can be achieved by friends and family without the need for government intervention.
 

Maxx

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Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it... The Nazi's were the "National Socialists". They advocated for a socialist economic system.

It's important to note that Nazi Germany was essentially a government of the lower and working classes rather than the traditional bourgeoisie and aristocracy (Prussian Junkers). People tend to not understand that socialistic basis.

How is this misunderstanding abused? Well, Google recently changed the definition of fascism (search) from "centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" to "right wing system of government and social organization." From centralized government with economic and social regimentation to "right wing." Curious.
 

NeoNemesis

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Typical...
The American way is for everybody to be responsible for themselves. If the kid in the "reality" slide is too stupid to get out of the hole than he owns his hole. If they are too stupid to stand on a taller crate than that is on him. Equity as pictured can be achieved by friends and family without the need for government intervention.

So you (as a country not you personally) enslave a group of people, beat them into the ground for a few centuries, finally grant them freedom 150 years ago and equality (on paper) some 50 years ago and magically the playing field is supposed to be even and they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

Or are you by chance suggesting that racism and inequality have been wiped out?
 

Maxx

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Robbing lol, as if roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc weren't all run from taxes. Let's say there is no government. Who will pay for police then? Or the wealthy will have private security to protect them, and the less wealthy can just be raped and murdered?

I find it strange that the same people who tell me to "build bridges, not walls" are comfortable behind their own enclosed compounds.

I suggest you read some of Niall Ferguson's books on financial history. He details how many industries, including infrastructure, went from private to public to private again during the 19th and 20th centuries. Of particular interest is the political rows over the introduction of an income tax in the UK to pay for social welfare. It's noteworthy that at and before that time a lot of the richest members of society (e.g., Rothschild) voluntarily put a lot of money into projects to help the less well-off peoples. That same family also of course invested heavily in railroads.

I think people tend to look at the "here and now" with disregard to the two centuries of socioeconomic history where you had the first hints of universal healthcare well over a century ago when the idea of modern taxation would get you ostracized from society. Police and firemen were, historically in the U.S., largely community- and volunteer-based, so your point that you require centralized government taxation to provide infrastructure is quite frankly entirely ignorant of history.
 

Gigus Fire

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Robbing lol, as if roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, etc weren't all run from taxes. Let's say there is no government. Who will pay for police then? Or the wealthy will have private security to protect them, and the less wealthy can just be raped and murdered?
Explain how roads, rails, hospitals, police stations, fire stations etc all existed before 1913 when income tax started?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepa...x-freedom-day-from-1900-to-2015/#4834662668bd
The idea that we aren't taxed enough and we need even more tax is ridiculous. I don't mind a small sales tax, but for the amounts that we are already paying into the system and creating a huge federal government with no real oversight is nuts.
 
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