Online Coding Schools Adopt Income-Share Agreements as Alternative to Tuition

[cageymaru]

Online coding schools are adopting Income-Share Agreements (ISA) which have officially been around since the 1950's but rarely implemented. Instead of paying tuition upfront which causes many students to go into debt, an ISA contract stipulates that the student pays the school a percentage of their paycheck for a set amount of time. In the article there is an example of a contract where a graduate has to pay 6.5% of their pay for 5 years after their income exceeds $35,000 a year. Purdue University has adopted the plan to help students that would need Direct PLUS loans and more financial aid to attend. Critics say that right now it is akin to the Wild West in terms of stipulations in the contracts so read the fine print!

There are more than 550,000 open jobs requiring computer-science skills, while fewer than 50,000 computer-science majors entered the workforce last year, according to an analysis of federal labor data by Code.org, a nonprofit that seeks to expand programming instruction in K-12 schools. Leaders of the ISA-based training programs see a business opportunity in the Lavell Burtons of the world—promising individuals without access to cash or credit for tuition. They are betting they can groom them, over the course of a few months, into tech professionals who command competitive compensation in a hot job market. And then take a cut.

 

[PenGunn]

LOL. Its difficult. To a large extent coders are born not made. As well anyone who wants to code can teach themselves to code. If you need some online school, you may not be that useful even when taught.

Its understood a great coder is orders of magnitude better than a regular coder, and that really is not a matter of education. I can code a bit, and have worked with great coders, doing testing for various things mostly, and they just need a clue or two and boom its fixed.

 

[heatlesssun]

LOL. Its difficult. To a large extent coders are born not made. As well anyone who wants to code can teach themselves to code. If you need some online school, you may not be that useful even when taught.

Its understood a great coder is orders of magnitude better than a regular coder, and that really is not a matter of education. I can code a bit, and have worked with great coders, doing testing for various things mostly, and they just need a clue or two and boom its fixed.

I agree for the most part but there's just SO much technology these days, even a great coder can't know or do it all and getting training in specific skills is more important than ever. It's still something that can be self-taught for the most part for a person of average intelligence and the will to do so, but having a mentor and folks with industry experience for guidance is a HUGE advantage.

 

[cyclone3d]

I've got a BS in Software Engineering.

Problem is with getting a decent paying coding job is that most places want 5-10 years experience minimum.. and usually in a very specific language or type of application programming.

Entry level stuff pay is total crap, and I would have to take about a 40% paycut from my IT job to get my foot in the door.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Having graduated from a T10 law school a few years ago, after three decades working as an engineer, I realized that much of my $130,000 in tuition had paid for useless courses that only existed to either 1) tic an accreditation check-box, 2) promote a professors political agenda, or 3) give students a way to easily inflate their GPAs. Maybe 1 in 8 of the courses offered actually had real-world value.

Higher education these days is a scam. If you are a motivated student, you can learn it all on your own. If you aren't motivated, no teacher can help you. The only real value in going to a top-end school is in the networking -- who you befriend there matters more than what you learn.

 

[nutzo]

Having graduated from a T10 law school a few years ago, after three decades working as an engineer, I realized that much of my $130,000 in tuition had paid for useless courses that only existed to either 1) tic an accreditation check-box, 2) promote a professors political agenda, or 3) give students a way to easily inflate their GPAs. Maybe 1 in 8 of the courses offered actually had real-world value.

Higher education these days is a scam. If you are a motivated student, you can learn it all on your own. If you aren't motivated, no teacher can help you. The only real value in going to a top-end school is in the networking -- who you befriend there matters more than what you learn.

There is one more advantage, that piece of paper with the schools name on it.
I've know too many managers who would hire someone with a degree and little experience, over someone without a degree and 10 years experience.

I've also found the managers who think this way are also some of the worse managers.

I do agree with you on the problems with higher education. To many garbage courses forced on students instead of just focusing on the core studies.

 

[pcgeekesq]

There is one more advantage, that piece of paper with the schools name on it.

True. You wanna talk about pay-to-win systems? I paid $130,000 to get a bit in a database flipped from 0 to 1.
And yes, that bit being a 1 opens doors that would otherwise be shut.

But even so, if I knew now what I'd known then, I wouldn't have gone to that T10 law school.

 

[modi123]

For-profit schools doing this? I mean it's not indentured servitude but tantalizingly close. I can only imagine the penalties if you can't get a job, miss a payment, or just tell'em to fudge off. Not to mention the missed tax write offs.

 

[tazeat]

This seems like a poor idea if you plan to do well after graduating. These are administered by for profit entities so they're definitely planning on taking in MORE than if they just did a standard loan, so I would think it would make far more sense to just do the standard loan? At least some of them look like they cap the max you'd pay, but still.

 

[heatlesssun]

This seems like a poor idea if you plan to do well after graduating. These are administered by for profit entities so they're definitely planning on taking in MORE than if they just did a standard loan, so I would think it would make far more sense to just do the standard loan? At least some of them look like they cap the max you'd pay, but still.

It all depends on how much you make for those 5 years after breaking the threshold. Say you averaged 100k for those five years. That's $32.5k which ain't bad at all for a year degree today.

 

[DukenukemX]

We've gone too far. We need cheaper tuitions not another method to get people into debt.

 

[heatlesssun]

We've gone too far. We need cheaper tuitions not another method to get people into debt.

But the idea here is tie the debt to the ability to pay which is FAR better than having unaffordable debt.

 

[nutzo]

True. You wanna talk about pay-to-win systems? I paid $130,000 to get a bit in a database flipped from 0 to 1.
And yes, that bit being a 1 opens doors that would otherwise be shut.

But even so, if I knew now what I'd known then, I wouldn't have gone to that T10 law school.

I only have an AA degree in Electronics, and several times it's been obvious it's held me back from a promotion or a new job.
However, once in a job I tend to run circles around the other IT types due to my 30+ years experience.

Good part is that I had no student debt to pay off. Also I only went to school 2 1/2 years, so I got an early start in my career.

 

[PantherBlitz]

Most universities would collapse if they adopted this model.

 

[martinmsj]

I think most of you missed an important portion of this article. These online coding schools are targeting engineer's (who already have some kind of degree) trying to get jobs at Silicon Valley and other big tech places. The issues are the interview process scheme these companies have come up with. It's considerably flawed but unfortunately championed. Ironically, I see it championed by the non-tech/exec's/admin.

LOL. Its difficult. To a large extent coders are born not made. As well anyone who wants to code can teach themselves to code. If you need some online school, you may not be that useful even when taught.

Its understood a great coder is orders of magnitude better than a regular coder, and that really is not a matter of education. I can code a bit, and have worked with great coders, doing testing for various things mostly, and they just need a clue or two and boom its fixed.

This is has nothing to do with good coders. It's about the interview process which doesn't find the "best coders."

 

[cageymaru]

Most universities would collapse if they adopted this model.

Then they don't believe in the training that they are giving their graduates?

 

[bigdogchris]

LOL. Its difficult. To a large extent coders are born not made. As well anyone who wants to code can teach themselves to code. If you need some online school, you may not be that useful even when taught.

Its understood a great coder is orders of magnitude better than a regular coder, and that really is not a matter of education. I can code a bit, and have worked with great coders, doing testing for various things mostly, and they just need a clue or two and boom its fixed.

I think it's that way in a lot of IT. I've dealt with some people that are well educated in the IT field and I would be embarrassed if my name was attached to their work.

If IT or software engineering to you is an 8-5 job and outside of that you have no interest, it's probably not the path for you.

 

[pcgeekesq]

Good part is that I had no student debt to pay off. Also I only went to school 2 1/2 years, so I got an early start in my career.

I have around $10K in low-interest student load debt. I paid the other $120,000 cash-- my engineering career was good financially.
Unfortunately, graying hair shuts a lot of doors when you're an engineer, otherwise I'd still be working as one.

 

[dgingeri]

Um, you misspelled "Purdue"

I wouldn't have noticed, except that's where my dad graduated from, and was my first choice for college so many years ago.

 

[cageymaru]

Um, you misspelled "Purdue"

I wouldn't have noticed, except that's where my dad graduated from, and was my first choice for college so many years ago.

Corrected it and had a good laugh about it too. Thank you.

 

[nutzo]

I have around $10K in low-interest student load debt. I paid the other $120,000 cash-- my engineering career was good financially.
Unfortunately, graying hair shuts a lot of doors when you're an engineer, otherwise I'd still be working as one.

Same boat here. Hopefully, my current company will be around at least another 8 years, so I can then retire.
If I ever have to look for another IT job, first thing I'll have to do is color my hair so I can pretend I'd 15 year younger. At least I still have hair to color.

 

[Spidey329]

Same boat here. Hopefully, my current company will be around at least another 8 years, so I can then retire.
If I ever have to look for another IT job, first thing I'll have to do is color my hair so I can pretend I'd 15 year younger. At least I still have hair to color.

Sadly, it's common for companies and individuals (decision makers) to think short term. They see a young recent grad that has minimal experience but will work for a fraction and think "money saved." They don't see that the more experienced person will do the job better and quicker.

I see it in a lot of consulting work I do. You can pay the guy asking $30/hr to do it and he'll take 4hrs to get it done. Or you can pay the quality experienced guy his rate of $100/hr and he'll get it done in 1hr. You saved time and $20. But on the short term of a quick glance, using the cheap labor seems more cost effective.

 

[Cyraxx]

Interesting. I actually REALLY like this.

It puts skin in the game for the college to ensure they are competitive to the point of doing the accomplished goal of giving someone employable skills. Admitedly, I guess everyone that goes to college isn't looking to be employed - maybe they are just interested in a certain subject? But I would venture to say that 99.5% are looking to get employed with their skills.

So if the college has skin in the game and are liable for making sure you get employed (hence they receive more money) - this genuinely looks like a win for the people. Same can be said for trade schools (Auto work, HVAC, plumbing, etc...). Fuck joke Universities.


(Hint: That means degrees in "gender studies", "women's studies" and other worthless ones will immediately be eliminated)

 

[Cyraxx]

We've gone too far. We need cheaper tuitions not another method to get people into debt.

View attachment 89401

Want cheaper tuition? Quit telling everyone that Billy joe is meant for college with his 2.5 GPA in basic high school classes. Not everyone was meant for advanced education, no matter how much you WANT them to be.

Less Demand for an already high supply market = prices will immediately fall. That, or stop giving government loans to stupid poor retards that get joke degrees, at minimal. Oh whats that Mary-sue? You want $20k in loans to get a degree in "women's studies"? What do you propose you will do with that degree? Oh, you don't know? Then GTFO.

Government loans should be strictly reserved for STEM fields or business fields only. Anything else should be laughed at. If you want to get a PRIVATE loan with your parent's cosigning to get your joke degree, then by all means go for it.

 

[Joust]

True. You wanna talk about pay-to-win systems? I paid $130,000 to get a bit in a database flipped from 0 to 1.
And yes, that bit being a 1 opens doors that would otherwise be shut.

But even so, if I knew now what I'd known then, I wouldn't have gone to that T10 law school.

BS, two Masters, and a JD here. Can confirm the pay-to-win phenomenon.

However, it's all relative - like in 2008, the job market across pretty much all sections took a tremendous dump. Through 2012 was bad, too, then I saw improvement. During that time it was more like pay-to-live or pay-to-eat. Very very rough time to get going in a career.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

Hey look at that....Share-cropping is making a comeback

What happens if the job you secured has nothing to do with your education because your certification the school gave you was worthless at getting a job?

Won't be long till this is outlawed.

 

[cyclone3d]

Having graduated from a T10 law school a few years ago, after three decades working as an engineer, I realized that much of my $130,000 in tuition had paid for useless courses that only existed to either 1) tic an accreditation check-box, 2) promote a professors political agenda, or 3) give students a way to easily inflate their GPAs. Maybe 1 in 8 of the courses offered actually had real-world value.

Higher education these days is a scam. If you are a motivated student, you can learn it all on your own. If you aren't motivated, no teacher can help you. The only real value in going to a top-end school is in the networking -- who you befriend there matters more than what you learn.

So much this. Pretty much all of my IT related skills and even most of my programming/scripting skills are all self taught.

Sure some programming theory was helpful, but even most of that I learned myself and not through any classwork I did.

 

[KarsusTG]

True. You wanna talk about pay-to-win systems? I paid $130,000 to get a bit in a database flipped from 0 to 1.
And yes, that bit being a 1 opens doors that would otherwise be shut.

But even so, if I knew now what I'd known then, I wouldn't have gone to that T10 law school.

Yup, I am a junior atm going for a computer engineering degree. Tired of getting doors slammed in my face because I don't have a "relevant degree" in the field. It's fricken insane. Two years in and Calculus and C are the only two classes I have taken that are even remotely relevant to the degree.

 

[Private_Ops]

Having graduated from a T10 law school a few years ago, after three decades working as an engineer, I realized that much of my $130,000 in tuition had paid for useless courses that only existed to either 1) tic an accreditation check-box, 2) promote a professors political agenda, or 3) give students a way to easily inflate their GPAs. Maybe 1 in 8 of the courses offered actually had real-world value.

Higher education these days is a scam. If you are a motivated student, you can learn it all on your own. If you aren't motivated, no teacher can help you. The only real value in going to a top-end school is in the networking -- who you befriend there matters more than what you learn.

I spent a semester in a local college straight out of high school. Realized quickly it wasn't for me. Compared to the vocational school I went to for my last two years of HS, it was nothing but a bunch of bullshit classes. I wanted straight to the point of what I was there to take. Not a useless social studdies or English class.

I keep computers for a hobby and do small work for family and friends now. I'm much happier working for a railroad, aside from the horrendus work schedule, I enjoy my job and make decent money.

 

[dgz]

To all you old farts who do the actual hiring. Do you honestly care about certificates? Can't you tell by just talking to the person in front of you?

 

[drescherjm]

To all you old farts who do the actual hiring. Do you honestly care about certificates?

HR sets guide lines that require a degree (possibly a graduate degree depending on the position).

 

[Deleted member 93354]

To all you old farts who do the actual hiring. Do you honestly care about certificates? Can't you tell by just talking to the person in front of you?

I can dig out in 15 minutes if a candidate is a good fit or not. Certs don't mean squat.

If you are a new recruit I'm going to test you on theory. But I'm not going to pull some games with you like "How do you multiply two BCD numbers" which has little relevence. I would be impressed if a new recruit knew what a BCD was. I'll ask you to name as many types of sorting algorithm you can and the benefits and drawbacks of each. I'll ask you what a strongly connected graph is, and to give an example of a NP complete problem . I'll also asked you about mixed mode math in the language you are strongest. And another language specific question based on your skillset

I'll ask what you do in your spare time. I have to also disclose that you are free not to mention religious or political activities lest we get sued for discrimination. I'm trying to see if you like what you do. Do you carry your training outside of school.

I'm going to ask you your favorite projects while in school.

 

[bugleyman]

Having graduated from a T10 law school a few years ago, after three decades working as an engineer, I realized that much of my $130,000 in tuition had paid for useless courses that only existed to either 1) tic an accreditation check-box, 2) promote a professors political agenda, or 3) give students a way to easily inflate their GPAs. Maybe 1 in 8 of the courses offered actually had real-world value.

Higher education these days is a scam. If you are a motivated student, you can learn it all on your own. If you aren't motivated, no teacher can help you. The only real value in going to a top-end school is in the networking -- who you befriend there matters more than what you learn.

This is a common point-of-view among those who believe the only point of higher education is job preparation. It isn't. A functioning democracy requires a well-educated citizenry (to be fair, "functioning democracy" IS a political agenda).

 

[PantherBlitz]

To all you old farts who do the actual hiring. Do you honestly care about certificates? Can't you tell by just talking to the person in front of you?

A lot of it is to protect the employer from discrimination claims. Go ahead and hire a guy with skills (no degree) over a person from a protected class (degree) and wait for the hounds of hell to be unleashed.

 

[bugleyman]

Unfortunately, graying hair shuts a lot of doors when you're an engineer, otherwise I'd still be working as one.

Which is absolutely insane if you think about it, but so it goes.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

A lot of it is to protect the employer from discrimination claims. Go ahead and hire a guy with skills (no degree) over a person from a protected class (degree) and wait for the hounds of hell to be unleashed.

protected classes include:
Race
Sex
Marriage status
Sexual Orientation
Relgion
Political Alignment
Age

I am not aware of degrees being a protected class as defined by the government. Link please?

 

[Deleted member 93354]

I have around $10K in low-interest student load debt. I paid the other $120,000 cash-- my engineering career was good financially.
Unfortunately, graying hair shuts a lot of doors when you're an engineer, otherwise I'd still be working as one.

Then shame on them. For future reference, talk to a lawyer

Any claim for discrimination must be met with paperwork saying why you weren't chosen and a side by side comparison with the candidate whom they did hire. They have to provide this.

Our best thermo engineer who writes brilliant FORTRAN was in his 80's and it took forever to find a replacement.

 

[KarsusTG]

This is a common point-of-view among those who believe the only point of higher education is job preparation. It isn't. A functioning democracy requires a well-educated citizenry (to be fair, "functioning democracy" IS a political agenda).

I don't really believe this to be true anymore. We are not training aristocrats like in the olden days. You just need to be taught how to think in a way that will allow you to come to the conclusions necessary for your line of work.

For example, engineers should be taught how to think like an engineer with a firm engineering foundation to build upon. I don't understand why courses like 'Anthropology' and 'Art Appreciation' (both req'd at my university) are necessary for this process. Seriously, I had a class that 50% of it entailed the social structures of America in the 18th century. Why in the holy hell does ANYONE getting an engineering degree in 2018 have to pay a school to teach them that?!?! It doesn't make any sense and IMO is completely unreasonable.

 

[PantherBlitz]

I am not aware of degrees being a protected class as defined by the government. Link please?

I said nothing of the sort. Since reading comprehension is difficult for you, so I'll save you from future lawsuits by spelling it out.

If you hire a person from a non-protected class over a person from a protected class, you had better be sure that you crossed all the "t"s and dotted all the "i's. Every person in protected classes that applied for the job can file claims based on the fact that you hired an unqualified (based on education) person over them. Go ahead and tell the EEOC that they did not answer your mixed mode math question to your satisfaction and see how far that gets you.

 

[pcgeekesq]

This is a common point-of-view among those who believe the only point of higher education is job preparation. It isn't. A functioning democracy requires a well-educated citizenry (to be fair, "functioning democracy" IS a political agenda).

Education? At American colleges and universities? I'm thinking you haven't been a student in one for a while.
It's indoctrination, not much more and nothing less.
Because every totalitarian state, leftist or rightist, profits from a well-indoctrinated "citizenry."

P.S. If you can explain why a wine-tasting class is beneficial to a functioning democracy, let me know. I've been a student at three major universities, and they all offered them -- for credit.