NVIDIA Bans Reviewer for Concentrating on Rasterization Instead of Ray Tracing

erek

[H]F Junkie
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That's just uncle Joe getting his daily essence, its what keeps him going.
Hmm,. wonder what that could indicate in the end
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hesho

Gawd
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Why is everyone all of sudden attacks nvidia?:( they apologized, no need to beat on someone who's hurt already!!

because they just apologized like a couple of hours ago? and i am not giving them credit when they are ones that made this mess.

i think the bigger picture though is, i am shocked at how many ppl were defending nvidia. Do that many ppl drink the cooperate koolaid?
 

Krenum

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That's nt true, I just don't like bullying and I think it's wrong people are all jumping on nvidia. Give them some credit, they agreed they made a mistake nd reversing their action for the better of c9mmunity.
If they hadn't done this kind of thing before, many times. Then I'd say learn to forgive, but apparently they aren't interested in changing their ways.
 

Aireoth

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That's nt true, I just don't like bullying and I think it's wrong people are all jumping on nvidia. Give them some credit, they agreed they made a mistake nd reversing their action for the better of c9mmunity.

Getting caught is the only thing that caused them to reverse course, just like the GPP.

nVidia deserves credit, just not the credit you think they deserve.
 

SnowBeast

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That's nt true, I just don't like bullying and I think it's wrong people are all jumping on nvidia. Give them some credit, they agreed they made a mistake nd reversing their action for the better of c9mmunity.
Taco drop the Spicy Sauce, go down to mild. It's messing with you. Only apologize because Linus with his 12 million viewers literally tore into them and one of the only times he ranted how about how Evil they are. That's 12 Million possible customers. Then Jay2Cents and his 3 million followers, followed by GN with his 1 Million+ possible subscribers leads to an Apology. 16 Million POSSIBLE customers. Not saying they all watch.
Plus someone posted all the crap Kyle delt with a few post up. How about the 3 1/2GB Geforce 970 lawsuit they lost on top of past crap they pulled?

Intel can't get here with a 4K@60fps gaming card soon enough. Kind of tired of these two.
 

MrGuvernment

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Why is everyone all of sudden attacks nvidia?:( they apologized, no need to beat on someone who's hurt already!!

So because they apologies thats it, back to normal? No, not any more, companies like this do this crap all the time, apologies and then do it again cause they know they will give a fake apology and make it all go away again in the future....These companies need to be held accountable for this crap.
 

kac77

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Well, haven't bought an nvidia card since GPP and this hasn't changed it for me. Honestly, they have better cards in general.. it's like, we're ahead and can sell our cards on their merits, or we can Best case: try to destroy our only real competition so we can be a monopoly and end up having to split, or worst case: it's not successful and we piss of a lot of people for no reason. Seems like a win win! Funny as most of my PC's used to have nvidia hardware in them because they were the better option, but the constant anti-consumer stuff just turns me off from them. Not like this will matter to their bottom line just like GPP didn't. With cards the way they are, they will all sell out regardless, but that won't stop me personally from voting with my wallet.
The funny things is, and don't laugh, I have a GTX 780 that needs to be replaced. Still going to wait until after Christmas, but it's not going to be nVidia. At some point you have to speak with your wallet. I'm only one person but I'm sure as hell not going to feed the beast.
 

DukenukemX

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Why is everyone all of sudden attacks nvidia?:( they apologized, no need to beat on someone who's hurt already!!
Don't know about you guys but I've been attacking Nvidia since they tried to cheat on benchmarks like 3Dmark. That doesn't go away just because you apologized. Nvidia apologized not because they were sorry but because it's 2020 and forgot that anything they do will get uploaded onto the internet. Did someone get sacked? Was the person who wrote that to Hardware Unboxed fired? Was Hardware Unboxed given a free video card with Jensen Huang's signature on it? Simply saying sorry is just the bare minimum of PR disaster relief. You don't get off that easily.
 

Priller

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In the past Linus has said that he is aware that Jensen does watch his videos. So if I was made to guess, given the title of the video, Jensen(or someone towards the top of Nvidia) watched the LTT video then made some calls. The guy that wrote the email seems high enough in the food chain that just some manager couldn't force them to apologize and retract the email.
 

MavericK

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With how fast they reversed this, it makes me wonder if this was really an nVidia move or some lone actor in the organization?

Whole thing stinks. What did they think was going to happen here?
 

FrgMstr

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Don't know about you guys but I've been attacking Nvidia since they tried to cheat on benchmarks like 3Dmark. That doesn't go away just because you apologized. Nvidia apologized not because they were sorry but because it's 2020 and forgot that anything they do will get uploaded onto the internet. Did someone get sacked? Was the person who wrote that to Hardware Unboxed fired? Was Hardware Unboxed given a free video card with Jensen Huang's signature on it? Simply saying sorry is just the bare minimum of PR disaster relief. You don't get off that easily.
I am pretty sure HardOCP broke the first 3D cheating story. Quake Quack ring a bell?
 
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ChadD

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In the past Linus has said that he is aware that Jensen does watch his videos. So if I was made to guess, given the title of the video, Jensen(or someone towards the top of Nvidia) watched the LTT video then made some calls. The guy that wrote the email seems high enough in the food chain that just some manager couldn't force them to apologize and retract the email.
Some people including Linus have actually said this didn't sound like Rizzo the guy who wrote the email. I think its just as likely that Jensen sampled some reviews one day.... saw something he didn't like in the Aussies delivery or choice of lighting, and told middle management he didn't want to see them anymore. I don't know having watched Hubs stuff I hardly took them as Anti Nvidia AMD shills or anything.... it seems odd for the middle management dude to go off on them randomly. Unless they slighted him personally somehow. The whole thing seemed pretty personal as the actual excuse given looks to be 100% made up.

I get Nvidia wanting to showcase the one use case that makes them look like they are still the leader. I mean really though why would any review site go all that hard on RT being the be all end all right now... going through the list of RT games I own control that's it. I do intend to pick up Cyberpunk when I have the time to actually play it. So there 2 games in my own list... and most gamers are the same. Even buy it all types probably only really own 3-4 RT enabled titles today... and likewise for titles that support DLSS. Cyperpunk frankly is probably the first (RT/DLSS) game I will pick up that I would actually potentially replay and spend more then a handful of hours playing. (I loved control but I'm probably not replaying it every week) Anyway not to get bogged down in features. RT is a up and coming thing that will matter at some point a lot more then it does today (of that I have no doubt)... I think most gamers however realize that the cards being sold today 3090s/6900s included are probably going to suck at RT enabled games released in 2022.... its a future technology but the hardware on offer today is not going to be powering it. Todays highest end are not going to be able to power RT games in 3 years at anywhere close to Ultra settings.

The reason I point out the future proof argument flaw with current RT hardware.... is Now as Linus was pointing out in his rant. How many reviewers feel the exact same way about current RT hardware but aren't saying it for fear of NV being babies and taking their toys away. (I joke really there taking their lively hood away.... man what a holes NV is for suggesting a review site with 600k subs are in it for free cards... clearly there making youtube advert and sponsor moneies lol) Worse how many are telling gamers that 2060/3060 level hardware are the best option cause there "future proof".... I mean I admit I only played a couple games with DLSS on a friends computer for perhaps an hour or so, but damn I thought it looked like ass. (and yes his 2080 super can handle some alright RT performance) How many reviewers overlook image quality issues with DLSS cause pointing them out would put them in the dog house.

Nvidia has made it very hard to trust anyone that talks well of any of their new fangled low adoption features.
 

erek

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Some people including Linus have actually said this didn't sound like Rizzo the guy who wrote the email. I think its just as likely that Jensen sampled some reviews one day.... saw something he didn't like in the Aussies delivery or choice of lighting, and told middle management he didn't want to see them anymore. I don't know having watched Hubs stuff I hardly took them as Anti Nvidia AMD shills or anything.... it seems odd for the middle management dude to go off on them randomly. Unless they slighted him personally somehow. The whole thing seemed pretty personal as the actual excuse given looks to be 100% made up.

I get Nvidia wanting to showcase the one use case that makes them look like they are still the leader. I mean really though why would any review site go all that hard on RT being the be all end all right now... going through the list of RT games I own control that's it. I do intend to pick up Cyberpunk when I have the time to actually play it. So there 2 games in my own list... and most gamers are the same. Even buy it all types probably only really own 3-4 RT enabled titles today... and likewise for titles that support DLSS. Cyperpunk frankly is probably the first (RT/DLSS) game I will pick up that I would actually potentially replay and spend more then a handful of hours playing. (I loved control but I'm probably not replaying it every week) Anyway not to get bogged down in features. RT is a up and coming thing that will matter at some point a lot more then it does today (of that I have no doubt)... I think most gamers however realize that the cards being sold today 3090s/6900s included are probably going to suck at RT enabled games released in 2022.... its a future technology but the hardware on offer today is not going to be powering it. Todays highest end are not going to be able to power RT games in 3 years at anywhere close to Ultra settings.

The reason I point out the future proof argument flaw with current RT hardware.... is Now as Linus was pointing out in his rant. How many reviewers feel the exact same way about current RT hardware but aren't saying it for fear of NV being babies and taking their toys away. (I joke really there taking their lively hood away.... man what a holes NV is for slighting a review site with 600k subs are in it for free cards lol) Worse how many are telling gamers that 2060/3060 level hardware are the best option cause there "future proof".... I mean I admit I only played a couple games with DLSS on a friends computer for perhaps an hour or so, but damn I thought it looked like ass. How many reviewers overlook image quality issues with DLSS cause pointing them out would put them in the dog house.

Nvidia has made it very hard to trust anyone that talks well of any of their new fangled low adoption features.
https://web.archive.org/web/2009101...3/optimizing_or_cheating_radeon_8500_drivers/
 
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Don't know about you guys but I've been attacking Nvidia since they tried to cheat on benchmarks like 3Dmark. That doesn't go away just because you apologized. Nvidia apologized not because they were sorry but because it's 2020 and forgot that anything they do will get uploaded onto the internet. Did someone get sacked? Was the person who wrote that to Hardware Unboxed fired? Was Hardware Unboxed given a free video card with Jensen Huang's signature on it? Simply saying sorry is just the bare minimum of PR disaster relief. You don't get off that easily.
Both ATI (now AMD) and Nvidia were caught cheating in 3dmark03. Fewer still remember ATI was caught cheating prior to that in Quake 3. Have you also been attacking them since then? I mean, it seems only fair, no?

Edit: Erek beat me to it, darn he's fast.
 

ChadD

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I didn't suggest AMD was pure either. Even today AMD does their own silly things, with some of the silliest marketing names around. Yes they have both been caught cheating with driver optimizations in the past. I am sure they have both pressured reviewers as well.

Nvidias attempt to control the industry narrative however is much more recent... and far more blatant imo. I am not suggesting RT doesn't have potential... however should it be a driving factor in a purchasing decision for any gamer today ? No imo... and I now wonder if any reviewers relying on NV launch day access would give their real opinions on the matter. I know this is more about RT... and I don't mean to come back to DLSS. But for a tech with so many known issues... that is basically a up front cheat, I do now really wonder if every reviewer is ok with it because they don't really have an option to say much else. (yes I know many reviewers have pointed out issues with DLSS especially the first version... still many more instead said yes this is how we get 4k folks its fantastic, and after seeing it in action myself I wonder wtf they where smoking.... now I think I know exactly who err I mean what was being smoked).

I wouldn't be thinking that way if there where more reviewers like Kyle still around.... but it seems the last few years the majority of the review industry are the types that would sign a GPP and the like rather then risk their nice little small business. Funny how when one gets attacked like this all of a sudden all the other big review names have stories like Jays BS phone calls where Nvidia tricks them into calls that go for a hour or more dissecting review transcripts with him. Sounds like Nvidia is a shit company to work for... and they consider reviewers employees.
 
Joined
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That's nt true, I just don't like bullying and I think it's wrong people are all jumping on nvidia. Give them some credit, they agreed they made a mistake nd reversing their action for the better of c9mmunity.

Yet they keep making similar mistakes over and over again. At this point it’s not a mistake; it’s a pattern of behavior.
 
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FrgMstr

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Both ATI (now AMD) and Nvidia were caught cheating in 3dmark03. Fewer still remember ATI was caught cheating prior to that in Quake 3. Have you also been attacking them since then? I mean, it seems only fair, no?

Edit: Erek beat me to it, darn he's fast.
I would suggest that is still going on today.
 

GoodBoy

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...I am not suggesting RT doesn't have potential... however should it be a driving factor in a purchasing decision for any gamer today ? No imo... and I now wonder if any reviewers relying on NV launch day access would give their real opinions on the matter.
That's your opinion, and it is fine.

For every other gamer to decide their opinion, they would need to have all relevant information, no? That would include raytracing impact in games that support it.

It sounds like you are making an excuse for leaving out RT in reviews. That would be stupid for a reviewer to actually do. It's a new, significant feature. You don't leave that out.

Reviewers: Just don't leave it out because in your opinion you don't think it is important. Your job is to provide data and analysis to the viewer, not decide what should be important to said viewers.

Reviewers do give their opinions on it, that's what Nvidia wants... And PLENTY of those are less than favorable. I think many of you are confusing "Nvidia trying to control what is covered by the reviews" (which they are), with "Nvidia trying to force positive reviews" which I am sure they would do if they could, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. AMD would do the same thing if they could. There are in fact a few websites that smell very much of "paid viral marketing", guess where the bias lies?? For AMD...

If you don't think it is going on (by both), you are deluding yourselves. The viral marketers are not the "reviewers" though, it's a few of the other channels...

Sheep...
 

Meeho

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That's your opinion, and it is fine.

For every other gamer to decide their opinion, they would need to have all relevant information, no? That would include raytracing impact in games that support it.

It sounds like you are making an excuse for leaving out RT in reviews. That would be stupid for a reviewer to actually do. It's a new, significant feature. You don't leave that out.

Reviewers: Just don't leave it out because in your opinion you don't think it is important. Your job is to provide data and analysis to the viewer, not decide what should be important to said viewers.
I don't fully agree with the above, but which of the actors involved in this mess would this apply to? In fact, I'm not aware of any major reviewer leaving it out.
 

GoodBoy

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It's what this whole thread is about? The 'denied future parts youtuber', was denied (by someone at Nvidia) because he was not covering Raytracing in his reviews. Then he did cover it, in a separate video, other tech youtubers made a fuss, [H] thread exploded (see, this thread). Nvidia apologized and the youtuber will again get future parts.

Edit: Corrected for 'timeline of events' clarity:

It's what this whole thread is about? The 'denied future parts youtuber', was denied (by someone at Nvidia) because Nvidia did not think he was covering Raytracing in his reviews (as far as we know). But he did cover it, in a separate video, other tech youtubers made a fuss, [H] thread exploded (see, this thread). Nvidia apologized, and the youtuber will once again get future parts.
 
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Meeho

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It's what this whole thread is about? The 'denied future parts youtuber', was denied (by someone at Nvidia) because he was not covering Raytracing in his reviews. Then he did cover it, in a separate video, other tech youtubers made a fuss, [H] thread exploded (see, this thread). Nvidia apologized and the youtuber will again get future parts.
Maybe you should get your facts from the source and not from Nvidia's PR butthurt emails.

Here are in-depth thoughts of Hardware Unboxed on RT:



TL;DW They have been covering RT and will continue to do so, but will not be putting unreasonable emphasis on it until it improves on PQ/performance_hit ratio. Buying today's GPUs for tomorrow's RT use makes little sense since tomorrow they will have abysmal performance (e.g. 980Ti in today's games at high settings). You buy GPUs today to game in today's landscape. By the time the next great PQ thing comes along, they will be too slow to matter.
 
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ChadD

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That's your opinion, and it is fine.

For every other gamer to decide their opinion, they would need to have all relevant information, no? That would include raytracing impact in games that support it.

It sounds like you are making an excuse for leaving out RT in reviews. That would be stupid for a reviewer to actually do. It's a new, significant feature. You don't leave that out.

Reviewers: Just don't leave it out because in your opinion you don't think it is important. Your job is to provide data and analysis to the viewer, not decide what should be important to said viewers.

Reviewers do give their opinions on it, that's what Nvidia wants... And PLENTY of those are less than favorable. I think many of you are confusing "Nvidia trying to control what is covered by the reviews" (which they are), with "Nvidia trying to force positive reviews" which I am sure they would do if they could, but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. AMD would do the same thing if they could. There are in fact a few websites that smell very much of "paid viral marketing", guess where the bias lies?? For AMD...

If you don't think it is going on (by both), you are deluding yourselves. The viral marketers are not the "reviewers" though, it's a few of the other channels...

Sheep...

I didn't suggest it was unimportant completely.... and I have said I expect it to be come common to the point of not worrying about it anymore. However is it as important as Nvidia is making out that they will fire good reviewers cause they didn't say it was the most important thing to consider for consumers in the market. Its something to consider of course.... but where do consumers weigh it. For my money its probably 8 9 perhaps 10th on my list of wants for a GPU. Cause I'm not stupid and I know if I use RT in a game like say Cyberpunk today even with a flagship I'm going to have to trade IQ settings for it. That is with a flagship cards.... if your buying even one step down it gets worse. Do I honestly believe its a feature that will matter much to me in a year... nope. Not cause RT won't grow, more that todays flagships are simply going to be lacking. Anyway.... raster performance is what matters for 100% of games.... today and tomorrow. RT performance effects less then 1% of current games.... and even the best cards on offer today are not going to cut it beyond medium settings for RT games next year. So ya if I'm reading or watching a review today I want to know about raster performance.... and sure cover RT and even things like DLSS but lets not buy the NV coolaid that its the #1 feature anyone should care about today. For myself and the vast majority of gamers.... the games we play daily don't have RT support, or if they do chances are other then screen shot opportunities people turn it off for the doubling of their Frame rates.

As for AMD bias... perhaps they pay for marketing (I'm sure they do as everyone does). However I think right now they are benefiting from being the cool kid. Yes its cool right now to hate NV, and Intel.... which makes it cool to like AMD. Positive AMD storides lead to clicks. IF I was to run a click generating tube page or website.... its hard to go wrong simply copy and pasting a bunch of AMD press release crap and waiting for the ad sense check. lol
 

ChadD

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It's what this whole thread is about? The 'denied future parts youtuber', was denied (by someone at Nvidia) because he was not covering Raytracing in his reviews. Then he did cover it, in a separate video, other tech youtubers made a fuss, [H] thread exploded (see, this thread). Nvidia apologized and the youtuber will again get future parts.

No he covered RT..... he didn't cover it to Nvidias liking. Here is a link to some of older reviews. They have also reviewed a ton of third party cards and benched RT in those... and I haven't even linked their most recent Cyberpunk RT video which of course ONLY covers NV. :)

December 1st 3060 review (linked to RT section)
October 30th Game optimization RT guide for Watch Dogs
October 27th 3070 review (linked to RT section)
September 18th... 3080 RT / DLSS video
September 16th 3080 founders review (linked to the RT benchmarks in his review)

I didn't even cover all the videos they have done where they have included RT and or DLSS benchmarks.

Going though his videos just now though... I think Nvidia was probably more pissed that they pointed out the voltage cap issues with the initial 3080s. Also that in the AMD 6000 reviews they have done they have not lit AMD up for not having as good RT performance or anything to really compete directly with DLSS. I would guess its more about making videos that pointed out the 3080 issues then anything. But to say they haven't covered RT in their reviews is a bold faced lie.
 

MaxHughes

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Regardless of nvidia strong arming, lack of product availability (amd here too), driver growing pains (amd historically worse here), I go with multiple reviews from multiple sites. Not just for rasterization, not just for raytracing. I want a full understanding of 4K performance because that's what matters to me. Doesn't make what they did right, but I take a lot of things into consideration - unless they fuck me directly (and they tried with geforce experience as the only way to get driver updates, and backed the fuck off due to the massive, deserved, backlash).

With that said, I was only able to find 1 reviewer that actually put out performance numbers for both the 3090 and 6900XT for Cyberpunk 2077 - and while the 6900XT can't do raytracing yet, the rasterization performance at 4K Ultra was significantly lower than the 3090. Around 20% lower (memory bandwidth limitation?). EDIT: two reviews this one a 25% difference. Toss in raytracing and DLSS 2.0 - I chose correctly, and am enjoying the ever-loving hell outta this amazing game.
$1000 Vs $1500 that's 2/3the price. Performance 75% of the 3090, no surprise there. I expected the 6800 to have 60CU and the 6900 tohave 80. But it was 72 and 80, the 6800XT looks better. That 6900XT for $300 more than the 6800XT should have had HBM2 ram. 75% of the performance for 66% of the price and utube says "That's disappointing". Even back in the R270/280/290 days AMD's cards that sat between two Nvidia cards in price and performance, utube would always compare an AMD to a higher priced Nvidia without mentioning the price difference.
 

MaxHughes

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Bias.... Nvidia used Hubs DLSS fluff as the first featured third party words on their own DLSS page.

DLSS a fake resolution bump that only works with selected titles that have DLSS updates for every minor content update, and will never work with games that aren't frozen in time and preferably on a rail... 90% of the time I'm playing online MMO type games where DLSS type techs that require external computation will never really work. "Extremely impressive - Hardware Unboxed". lol Nvidia shill detected. (I think I'm being sarcastic.... but seriously DLSS is such a BS feature) lol
DLSS is like watching a utube 480P rip off a VHS tape on a stupid old 1080P low res monitor. RT is for NASA's super computer.
 

fist003

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That's the main reason why Hardware Unboxed didnt give much effort to NVIDIA RTX. The hardware is not yet there to make it a viable option to be turned on as default. To get a decent FPS with RTX on, you would at least get 3080. It is not as important as how NVIDIA is portraying. It will be, once the middle tier hardware are able to support it without much performance hit just like AA.

Hardware Unboxed is also review based on gaming point of view and based on the top 200 rated games, not a lot supports RTX. Up until Cyberpunk, most of these games that supports RTX, provides negligible experience with RTX but takes a lot of performance hit. That's why Hardware Unboxed do not focus much on RTX performance, they do benchmark them, but not giving as much focus as NVIDIA wants.

Ray tracing is a great feature that, to me, would take at least a couple gens of GPU to make it viable.
 

Ready4Dis

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It's what this whole thread is about? The 'denied future parts youtuber', was denied (by someone at Nvidia) because he was not covering Raytracing in his reviews. Then he did cover it, in a separate video, other tech youtubers made a fuss, [H] thread exploded (see, this thread). Nvidia apologized and the youtuber will again get future parts.
You have the order wrong.. he did cover it in another video prior to Nvidia complaining. And it was in the original review, just not enough of it to satisfy Nvidia. Also, Nvidia even used quotes from HUB in their marketing material because they have actually said good things about DLSS. If you're going to argue with others at least present the correct information in the right timeline, otherwise you just look like your purposefully misleading.
 

arestavo

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$1000 Vs $1500 that's 2/3the price. Performance 75% of the 3090, no surprise there. I expected the 6800 to have 60CU and the 6900 tohave 80. But it was 72 and 80, the 6800XT looks better. That 6900XT for $300 more than the 6800XT should have had HBM2 ram. 75% of the performance for 66% of the price and utube says "That's disappointing". Even back in the R270/280/290 days AMD's cards that sat between two Nvidia cards in price and performance, utube would always compare an AMD to a higher priced Nvidia without mentioning the price difference.
I think you missed the point where I care about performance and didn't mention cost anywhere.

Also, if you're that concerned with price yourself - why not, I dunno, look at the 3080 and how it beats the 6900XT (let alone the 6800/6800XT) at 4K in Cyberpunk 2077 for over $300 less.
 
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