NSA Uses The Internet To 'Manipulate And Destroy Reputations'

evilsofa

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A question that demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the situation.

With these people, there is no ideology except expansion of power.

No, that was just me being a bit too subtle. If you were to look at the Internet for evidence of manipulation, deception and destruction of reputations in the domestic arena, what would be your conclusion as to the NSA's desired outcomes?

In other words, when you think of Americans or American organizations or American companies whose reputations have been destroyed by the Internet, who do you think of? If you believe that the NSA is meddling with domestic affairs, then you need to answer the question of what their goals would be.

When you look at how politicians are reacting to the NSA scandal, you find that both the pro-NSA and anti-NSA camps have some very interesting bedfellows.
 

Stiletto

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No, that was just me being a bit too subtle. If you were to look at the Internet for evidence of manipulation, deception and destruction of reputations in the domestic arena, what would be your conclusion as to the NSA's desired outcomes?

In other words, when you think of Americans or American organizations or American companies whose reputations have been destroyed by the Internet, who do you think of? If you believe that the NSA is meddling with domestic affairs, then you need to answer the question of what their goals would be.

When you look at how politicians are reacting to the NSA scandal, you find that both the pro-NSA and anti-NSA camps have some very interesting bedfellows.

As I said, there really is no ideology except the endless pursuit of power and control. That's why you have people like Rand Paul and Ron Wyden, conservative and liberal opponents, finding themselves in agreement on an issue bigger than just about any other. Both of them value individual liberty above the power of the state. They know corruption, and they know that the more capabilities you afford those who are corrupt, the more ways they'll find to abuse those capabilities.

Meanwhile, you have Republicans and Democrats who operate on greed for power, and that greed belies any other bullshit they tout as their driving principles. They scare the populace with some perceived threat, figure out how far they can take it in justifying new powers for themselves, and finish up by casting anyone who disagrees as a dangerous, crazy extremist who should be silenced.

Not that this approach is unique to statists. Shit, it's practically the credo for how millennials approach issues these days: If you don't agree with me, then you deserve to be dismissed, shamed, or punished.
 

lcpiper

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When you start wanting to discuss the benefits of destroying the reputations of others by posting bullshit on the internet, you demonstrate just how far society has fallen.

When a scientist is helping a very unstable group of people to develop a VX type f nerve agent then we are no longer discussing society, we are discussing survival.
 

lcpiper

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As I said, there really is no ideology except the endless pursuit of power and control. That's why you have people like Rand Paul and Ron Wyden, conservative and liberal opponents, finding themselves in agreement on an issue bigger than just about any other. Both of them value individual liberty above the power of the state. They know corruption, and they know that the more capabilities you afford those who are corrupt, the more ways they'll find to abuse those capabilities.

Stiletto, this is what you see man?

What I see is a pair of politicians who know that this is a huge issue that has no foundation in the truth. The only real issue at hand is whether or not the NSA Bulk data collection program is unconstitutional or not.

It's not if it is being misused, because it hasn't been.
The potential could be there, but it isn't, the oversight is adequate hence the reason it hasn't been misused.

The question isn't if it is illegal because it's not, a law was passed to make it legal. So we are back to possibly unconstitutional and really, a great number of judges have rule several times it isn't unconstitutional so that is still a slim outcome and will probably just come down to who is in the drivers seat next time the question comes up.

No, what I see is an issue that both these politicians know they can gain a bunch of traction with. They know it's bullshit, that it isn't going away, that it isn't illegal and it may never be ruled unconstitutional by anyone that matters. But they can still look good championing the cause of freedom. As far as they are concerned, it's all gravy with no down side.

That's what I see Stiletto.
 

Stiletto

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Stiletto, this is what you see man?

What I see is a pair of politicians who know that this is a huge issue that has no foundation in the truth. The only real issue at hand is whether or not the NSA Bulk data collection program is unconstitutional or not.

...you have put on blinders. You're discussing something from several months ago. We're discussing the latest revelations that have nothing to do with data collection, and pose far worse possibilities.

lc, these are the people who just finished backing off their idea of having a government agency that would go interrogate members of the media to see how they are reporting the news and making their editorial decisions, because tapping journalists' computers and threatening to throw them in jail wasn't enough of a 1A violation. Now HHS wants access to the full historical data of Twitter, ostensibly to "track diseases".

Sorry dude...but only fools continue to give the US government the benefit of the doubt, and you appear to be one of them.
 

lcpiper

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I can see why they want to do this by the way. It's because the country's journalists no longer have any sense of what they should and should not be reporting.

You know man, 30 years ago a news paper reporter never would have posted a full classified document wholey reproduced still with the classified markings on it. No way in hell, not unless they got a secret thumbs up because in some way the government wanted it leaked and it was blessed.

Today, now, they are publishing anything they get their hands on, complete, not even an effort to mitigate any damage the release might cause. It's insane man and somehow you guys just are not getting it, the real damage this is causing is far worse then any damage to someone's rights and freedoms. It's becoming a huge self feeding circular path of destruction. The media needs to get control of itself because they are doing this to themselves, they are driving the beast into a corner and we will all get hurt.

You ever hear a story where some dude punched his wife and he says something like "she made me to do it"? He's wrong, he knows he is wrong, he'll even admit he shouldn't have done it and the woman won't tell anyone the real story. He'll get punished to whatever degree, then somehow, the woman takes him back and maybe it happens again maybe not. But what know one will ever admit especially the woman, is that it was true, she did drive that poor fucker right out of his mind because she wanted him to hit her, she wanted him to be the bad guys, it's the only way she knows to get him back under her thumb. She got right in his face, wouldn't back off when he tried to retreat, and she pushed every button she knows how to push to make him hit her.

Well that is what some of our reporters and media outlets are doing. They are crossing the line with this released data, they are publishing stuff that never should be published, they are daring the Government to make the wrong move cause they know that every time the government does anything to stop it they just make it all look worse.

Someone needs to start putting things back into perspective. You notice this latest round of stuff, stuff that has nothing to do with US Freedoms, it all started coming out right after Obama announced what he was going to do to fix things, which we all know isn't much. I still assert that's because the oversight actually exists and is full capable of providing adequate guards against abuse. Other just think it's because they are completely out of control and we are being sold down the river.

We all have to make up our own minds. On the one hand I have some super secret spooks who "might" be lying to me. On the other I have some media hounds who are in other peoples' pockets who I KNOW have been lying to me.

I'm only sorry I do such a bad job of showing you the real bad guys.
 

lcpiper

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Stiletto, that piece written by the FCC Commissioner, Ajit Pai. Have you seen an actual memmo or something where this is actually written down, something more then this open article that has no document to back it up? I would love to actually read the real thing and not just this guy's story about it.
 

lcpiper

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I can see why they want to do this by the way. It's because the country's journalists no longer have any sense of what they should and should not be reporting.

Oh, and Stiletto, when you read this first line, try and understand where I am coming from. Every document that is labeled Top Secret, is supposed to be treated as if "it's release could cause grave harm to the United States". Not serious, not great, but grave harm.

The people who have these documents do not have any experience with them, no background, no training, no understanding of everything that each one is about.
 

Stiletto

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Stiletto, that piece written by the FCC Commissioner, Ajit Pai. Have you seen an actual memmo or something where this is actually written down, something more then this open article that has no document to back it up? I would love to actually read the real thing and not just this guy's story about it.

I've got better: they're backing off.

And regarding your post about seeing where you're coming from, there's a dichotomy there. I do and don't see where you're coming from. I do see where you're coming from because I know the basics of your career, and I know that your livelihood, and the livelihood of your family depends on opportunities made available by the US government, and you are extremely grateful, and would be no more open to the idea of casting aspersions on them as any pensioner would be to cast aspersions on an employer who made their lifestyle possible.

And at the same time, I don't, because I haven't ever belonged in an organization that earned that kind of deference from me.

I am on the outside looking in, and you are on the inside looking out. Our paradigms complement each other but are separated by the ability to look objectively at the system in question. You are part of it, is has been good to you, you are able to verify the good for yourself in person, and so have intense skepticism towards the critics. I am not part of it, it has not been good to me, I have witnessed the bad throughout my life in person, and so have intense skepticism towards the members of that system.

I can always find a good cop in any town, if I really want to. Now, if that one cop refuses to recognize the epidemic of cops shooting innocent people...arresting people on made-up charges...violating their rights with intimidation and force...all on the basis that he's worked as a cop, and he knows good people on the force, then we will never, ever see eye-to-eye. When new tools or capabilities come out for law enforcement, that cop will only imagine how it can be used for good, because imagining how it can be abused will infect his reason and before long, he'll take an objective look at how his fellow officers act. Then...if he's not careful...he'll say or do the wrong thing, and be cast out, either officially or by default.

Ultimately, when it comes down to it, it's a matter of whether you belong to said tribe. If you're in the tribe, of course you'll support the tribe for all kinds of reasons, and you'll overlook a lot of behavior because you see a greater good. Those of us not experiencing any of that greater good, but suffering from the worst instead, will be unable to reach you. Meanwhile, you will not be around when the bad tribesmen decide to fuck us for whatever reason they have in their head...the tribal leaders will say the bad tribesmen have been dealt with and this doesn't reflect on the tribe...and you will put your faith in those leaders. Even after the second time. And the third. And the fourth. And so on until it's happened so many times that to recognize a pattern of corruption would mean shattering your worldview, and if you've dedicated much of your life to that worldview only to find it broken, you face a very frightening prospect.

This is why whistleblowers are rare.
 

Stiletto

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This bit about "tracking diseases" that is the reporter's insight, added comment, actual bullshit.

Read the source brother, not the hype.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=4305ca464bb333d67e3213bc6476f27e&tab=core&_cview=0

The bullshit excuse was not what worries me. What does worry me is in your link.

Dude, I'm being honest when I say that given enough time, I think you would support CCTV on every street corner, national ID cards with biometrics, and eventually a complete rewrite of the Constitution. You've already spent an entire post lamenting the freedom of the press and how it needs to be dealt with. As I said before, you're inside looking out. I think if it were the reverse, you'd feel much as I do.
 

lcpiper

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Stiletto, I don't actually think you do get it. Somehow you think that I feel in some way "beholden" to the Federal Government. No Soldier thinks of himself as a Government Employee. He knows that in an extended fashion, technically, that this is the case, but that is not the image that is in the mind. Most any soldier sees him/her self as a Member of the Military, a Military that begins at the bottom with the Privates, Sailors, and Airmen, and progresses upwards to the lofty heights of senior leadership and at the very pinnacle the Military seats give way to Civilian Leadership, and lastly it all culminates with the Commander and Chief. But it stops there, no soldiers sees a relationship between what he experiences as government service and say Congress or any of the other organs of the Federal Government, not the FBI, not the CDC or the FCC. They are as foreign to a soldier as they are to you or any other private citizen.

Furthermore there are two distinct "Classes" within the military, Enlisted Soldiers and Commissioned Officers. These two do not always for an homogenous whole and there is distrust and sometimes enmity between them.

So you might see my history as something that would produce this;
And at the same time, I don't, because I haven't ever belonged in an organization that earned that kind of deference from me.

But the reality is more in tune with a freelance mason who contracted with the government to build a memorial and once the memorial is built, he's just hoping the son's of bitches pay up as they promised and honor their agreement.

The media accepted Edward Snowden's "gifts", they put him right out there in the brightest of lights and at the same time they shielded us from very many real details of his life. For instance, early on it was listed on that wiki page about Snowden that he said he broke both his legs while in the Army, had signed up to go Special Forces but had to quit. The Army is quiet about it, litigation is pending so they are not talking, but no one is asking questions, or at least they are not printing answers. Typically an enlistee signs up and may wait many months before entering active service, this is called the Delayed Entry Program and it's used so that all of the enlistees school openings can be lined up for a smooth training calendar. See, the SF school might only run two classes a year so they will have all their students go through basic training just before this class starts so they aren't sitting around somewhere for 5 months waiting on their class date. They sit at home instead waiting for their Basic Class which will finish within a week or so of the start of their next class. Furthermore, Basic training is ALWAYS the first training every soldier completes before continuing on to his specialist training. Basic lasts for about six weeks these days, Snowden was in the Army for four months. The Army says Snowden didn't complete any training, so he never finished Basic, and what's more is that time on Delayed Entry counts toward total service time so it is completely possible that Edward Snowden never even showed up for his Army training at all, much less broke both of his legs.

Now I am not the only "old soldier" asking himself these questions and there has been much comment on military oriented websites about this curios information. So the question remains, why has there been no clarification at all about this.

Why was a guy who worked as a security guard for a little security company, employed by a University where he happened to keep watch of the language lab, which was used by the NSA at the University of Maryland, repeatedly described as "working for the NSA"? So the little old woman who makes sandwiches at the university Deli where the students eat, she worked for the NSA too I guess.

The media made this guy into a hero, when hero started wearing off, they tried whistleblower, but that isn't legally right so they teased us with Man of the Year, Nobel Peace Prizes and lastly "can we get a pardon for our boy here?"

And while the magic of Snowden is wearing off, so too the outrage because although some look at every new media "magic trick" and cry at the outrage of it all, others are seeing the reality, they are not buying the "smoking gun" stories cause the once you get passed the SECRET markings at the top of the paper and actually read them, they don't actually say and mean what the reporters tell you they do. You start to get wise to the use of words like "suggest" instead of prove, and that none of the "evil deeds" are ever actually reported as happening against an American. The gullible are simply left to fill in the blanks for themselves and assume that these things are being done to Americans.

Politics in this country has long left "service to country" by the way side, it's just about money and power now. You run for office looking to punch a life long ticket on the gravy train, your support group has bought and paid for advertising agencies that we still mistakenly call the News. They are not selling us the truth, they are selling us their boys.
 

lcpiper

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And by the way, this last overlong post of mine was written without the benefit of seeing yours.

Maybe in twenty years enough real truth will leak out where we will know what's real and what isn't. I just don't buy the whole "sky is falling" story. All I see is people with strings, and people being pulled by them. Maybe you are right and maybe I have been blinded. But the problem is, I see lies inside these stories cause the story tellers don't actually know what they are talking about and it becomes obvious after awhile.

After awhile the bullshit get's too deep to smell like roses.
 

silk186

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I want bitcoin to fail because I didn't get into it and make money. After it fails high-end GPU prices will drop in the second hand market and I can pick something up.
 

JaiWebb

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I want bitcoin to fail because I didn't get into it and make money. After it fails high-end GPU prices will drop in the second hand market and I can pick something up.


heath-as-joker.jpg
 

XBarbarian

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apologists..the world is full of Pavlovian apologists... disgusting

what we know know is that this is a full on police state...not because traitor A or traitor B.. (L=R) but because totalitarian always wins

pretty disgusting to watch apologists make excuses for this.
 

evilsofa

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apologists..the world is full of Pavlovian apologists... disgusting

what we know know is that this is a full on police state...not because traitor A or traitor B.. (L=R) but because totalitarian always wins

pretty disgusting to watch apologists make excuses for this.

You don't know what a totalitarian state is.
 

CreepyUncleGoogle

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apologists..the world is full of Pavlovian apologists... disgusting

what we know know is that this is a full on police state...not because traitor A or traitor B.. (L=R) but because totalitarian always wins

pretty disgusting to watch apologists make excuses for this.

Just a thought, if the US is actually this evil corrupt nation that you're saying it is, I want to say that I'm totally okay with living in it because stuff for me is great. I have a super comfy couch to sit on, a nice netbook and a D620 latitude laptop to write on, all the purring fluffy kitteh I could ask for, and all I have to do is pay taxes once a year and not break any laws. That's totally great for me so I 100% encourage the government to keep doing whatever its doing because it works really well when I can hang out at a mall with friends and not worry about criminals or terrorists all the time when I'm shopping.
 

Stiletto

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You don't know what a totalitarian state is.

Nobody does until they realize it's already there. You think German citizens woke up one day and said "where the hell did this dictatorship come from???"

Anyone who says "it can't happen here" and dismisses those who warn against it are those who are helping its construction. Societies break down and eventually turn to totalitarian leadership, because they are desperate for jobs or food or water or shelter or whatever it is they are promised. This is how it has happened since the dawn of humanity. You really the the United States is somehow impervious to corruption? We now have a president who, quite literally, makes up law whenever he wants to, announces it to the people, and it is so. He brags about having a pen and a phone to make things happen. Not a Congress. Not people in Congress he's friends with. Hell, even mainstream newspapers are beginning to be astonished at how isolated Obama is; making no real relationships on the hill...showing up for as few press conferences as possible(but never turning down a chance to show up in a television show)...and working harder every day to make government less and less transparent.
 

Stiletto

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Just a thought, if the US is actually this evil corrupt nation that you're saying it is, I want to say that I'm totally okay with living in it because stuff for me is great. I have a super comfy couch to sit on, a nice netbook and a D620 latitude laptop to write on, all the purring fluffy kitteh I could ask for, and all I have to do is pay taxes once a year and not break any laws. That's totally great for me so I 100% encourage the government to keep doing whatever its doing because it works really well when I can hang out at a mall with friends and not worry about criminals or terrorists all the time when I'm shopping.

There you have it: the mindset that abides tyranny, in a nutshell.

I really hope you're trolling, by the way. I really do. If not...holy fucking shit, dude.
 

CreepyUncleGoogle

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There you have it: the mindset that abides tyranny, in a nutshell.

I really hope you're trolling, by the way. I really do. If not...holy fucking shit, dude.

Why should I go being all upset on behalf of people who don't like their lives and don't understand how good things really are? It's a democratic nation and I like how things are right now. Like minor complaints...um...mostly stuff I can overlook are all I have to worry about so whatever is okay. Nothing about being happy with how things are and how things aren't causing problems helps tyranny because, idk if you haven't noticed, but that's not happening in the US.

It's just a fad/phase thing to be upset with the government and a lot of people are getting into the stuff they see on TV because turmoil makes for ratings and sensational stuff. It started this whole snowball of weirdo tea party and libertarian people who are just doing what the TV tells them and getting mad despite things being good. I think they'll either get put down as a rebellion or grow out of the fad. I honestly don't really care which happens as long as they get stopped before they mess up a really good thing we have going here in the US.
 

CreepyUncleGoogle

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^^ taxes are forever.

my hatred is forever.

You'll pay someone something if you live in any nation because that's how nations are funded. So just like before the Revolution when a buncha people were upset about taxes and flipping out, going to war over it and killing each other, we're back to paying taxes again and people are flipping out again. Get used it it, mmkay since it'll happen no matter how many times you go breaking things and putting them back together anew.
 

jon666

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Why should I go being all upset on behalf of people who don't like their lives and don't understand how good things really are? It's a democratic nation and I like how things are right now. Like minor complaints...um...mostly stuff I can overlook are all I have to worry about so whatever is okay. Nothing about being happy with how things are and how things aren't causing problems helps tyranny because, idk if you haven't noticed, but that's not happening in the US.

It's just a fad/phase thing to be upset with the government and a lot of people are getting into the stuff they see on TV because turmoil makes for ratings and sensational stuff. It started this whole snowball of weirdo tea party and libertarian people who are just doing what the TV tells them and getting mad despite things being good. I think they'll either get put down as a rebellion or grow out of the fad. I honestly don't really care which happens as long as they get stopped before they mess up a really good thing we have going here in the US.

Gitmo is just a phase some people go through in life. They'll get over it eventually.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...orism-suspects-get-new-lives-in-slovakia?lite
 

jon666

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*Snugs up tinfoil hat*
All of these agencies share information with each other. The NSA has the most legal backing in terms of surveillance. What do you think the other agencies are acting on?
 

Retronym

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Would you still have a problem with taxes if you had any say in what they are used for? I know I wouldn't.

i reject any form of involuntary government. taxes presume they have a higher claim to my property than I do.

anyway, the point is not that I expect to stop paying them anytime soon, just that my hatred is sincere, and most definitely not guided by any talking head on tv as suggested.

you have no idea how real the hatred is, I assure you all.
 

Stiletto

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Why should I go being all upset on behalf of people who don't like their lives and don't understand how good things really are?

I wish I could share your blissful ignorance, I really do. I've tried many times. Then I read some more news, and...*sigh*
 

Stiletto

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Would you still have a problem with taxes if you had any say in what they are used for? I know I wouldn't.

I'd say I'd be a lot more congenial about handing it over. I mean, the original concept upon which this country was founded was "no taxation without representation", and despite the eye-rolling and sneering from the blissfully ignorant, we're facing that deficit again.

Our best bet is to return to the pre-Civil War era structure. Change:

The United States of America is

to

The United States of America are

Sovereign, independent states belonging to a union, instead of basically being one huge country run as much as possible from one city.
 

evilsofa

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Our best bet is to return to the pre-Civil War era structure. Change:

The United States of America is

to

The United States of America are

Sovereign, independent states belonging to a union, instead of basically being one huge country run as much as possible from one city.

Oh yeah, that system worked SO WELL. So well, in fact, that we HAD A CIVIL WAR.
 
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