Motherboard re-work, SMD work. CPU holder soldier joints fractured. Handled by CPU cooler fan.

Macho

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The motherboards are fragile and need a soft touch when installing from case to case. A very common issue is no boot, no post, going on and then off, and then
the DRAM red light is on. Ruined motherboard that needs to be sent out for reflowing the solder contacts with flux over applied or re balled. These machines are available
for $500 - $800 on Ebay. Just use causes the motherboard the need to be re flowed but I notice recently how fine the motherboards are. Slight flexing the fibre glass
motherboard may fracture the suface mounted CPU holders solder joints.

I have 2 that need this re work, and have not found any circuit board repair houses. I was told that every Computer repair shop should have one of these.
The answer to all these questions about the motherboard not working right may be this issue. When you tighten down the cooler fan heat sink, does this have a
slight effect? This may show it is related to this problem, but correcting it needs a re work solder flow repair job done.
 

Macho

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The motherboards are fragile and need a soft touch when installing from case to case. A very common issue is no boot, no post, going on and then off, and then
the DRAM red light is on. Ruined motherboard that needs to be sent out for reflowing the solder contacts with flux over applied or re balled. These machines are available
for $500 - $800 on Ebay. Just use causes the motherboard the need to be re flowed but I notice recently how fine the motherboards are. Slight flexing the fibre glass
motherboard may fracture the suface mounted CPU holders solder joints.

I have 2 that need this re work, and have not found any circuit board repair houses. I was told that every Computer repair shop should have one of these.
The answer to all these questions about the motherboard not working right may be this issue. When you tighten down the cooler fan heat sink, does this have a
slight effect? This may show it is related to this problem, but correcting it needs a re work solder flow repair job done.
A plastic CPU back plate that may bend and pull up at the corners to bow the inner of the CPU solder joints. I thought to over tighten to make sure
that the heat is transferred to the heat sink and fan. Some how I may be causing problems doing what I used to do previously with metal CPU back
plates that would pull more evenly. The Motherboard is with fine line traces on a fine thin circuit board. We used to have through hole pins pushing
through and now it is surface mount technology and they use small balls to use as solder to seat the CPU holder. The reflow with the exact right
temperature and radiation and pressure needed to repair.

( Do not sweat over petty things and do not pet sweaty things. )
 

Dan_D

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I can tell you from having worked in PC repair shops back when we did more component level work, most shops will not have the equipment to do what you want done. These things are more modular and much mroe disposable these days.
 

Nobu

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Looks like he's describing a situation and then providing a solution to his own problem. Post seems generated.
 
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travm

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Fractured solder joints on a PCB are not an easy fix. Buy a New motherboard and don't break this one.
Motherboards don't break under normal use.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Uh no, it doesn't.

This was actually true for a small window of time in 2005-2006 during the ROHS changeover. You could lightly press on the motherboard and cause a BGA failure on the chipset. I've had to repair dozens of boards like that which failed just from bending them slightly.
 
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This was actually true for a small window of time in 2005-2006 during the ROHS changeover. You could lightly press on the motherboard and cause a BGA failure on the chipset. I've had to repair dozens of boards like that which failed just from bending them slightly.
Yeah I know of some older stuff that required it. But I highly doubt OP is talking about stuff 15+ years old. And as others have said I'm not sure what the point of the post is to begin with.
 

GiGaBiTe

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Yeah the OP isn't making much sense. Sounds like he might have broke the CPU socket or something.
 

RazorWind

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We need more details. What on the boards in question isn't working?

It's not impossible to DIY this sort of repair if you know what you're doing, but I can't imagine it makes a whole lot of sense money-wise. A motherboard is way more complex and less expensive than a graphics card, and it only kind of makes sense to repair those.
 

Macho

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I ordered another of the same motherboard. The few motherboards I have with this problem I will attempt to reflow with flux made for reflow and a picture
of this heat guns advertisment shows the use for Graphics cards & Motherboard solder reflow.

TECCPO Power Heat Gun 1500W Professional Hot Air Gun Craft ...​

https://www.ebay.com › ... › Power Tools › Heat Guns


Many other advertisments for this type of heat gun, that is used by electronic technicians. 250 degree's C, for several seconds, with liquid flux put under the
CPU holder, and it is supposed to work.

I am surprised that few if any posts are about this topic.
 

Dan_D

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I ordered another of the same motherboard. The few motherboards I have with this problem I will attempt to reflow with flux made for reflow and a picture
of this heat guns advertisment shows the use for Graphics cards & Motherboard solder reflow.

TECCPO Power Heat Gun 1500W Professional Hot Air Gun Craft ...

https://www.ebay.com › ... › Power Tools › Heat Guns

Many other advertisments for this type of heat gun, that is used by electronic technicians. 250 degree's C, for several seconds, with liquid flux put under the
CPU holder, and it is supposed to work.

I am surprised that few if any posts are about this topic.
I have a serious questions here: Why do you think you need to reflow the solder? This is not a common need. That's why computer repair shops don't have the equipment for it. They don't need it and really never have. I've been fixing these things professionally for decades. Secondly, I've been reviewing motherboards for over a decade and a half. I've had HUNDREDs of motherboards cross my test bench. I rebuild my personal computer at least once a year and have for 25 years. I've had multiple systems at a time as well. I've owned probably more than three dozen motherboards personally. As a service technician in high volume service centers, I've serviced thousands of systems and worked with 10's of thousands of them in data centers in the IT industry.

I've never run across this problem. Ever. The symptoms you describe in your first post aren't necessarily symptoms of the problem you describe. People don't generally move motherboards to new cases all that often. They rarely get flexed enough to damage the soldier joints. If you flex the PCB too hard, you are probably just as likely to damage traces in the PCB. Even if reflowing the solder on some of these boards would have fixed them, it wouldn't have offset the cost of the machine. In other words, replace the thing and move on with your life.

Why do you think you need to do this? What process of logic and troubleshooting did you use to come to the conclusion that this was something you needed to do to fix this problem, and that it's worth it? I'm not saying reflowing solder wouldn't fix some boards or that it was never needed. We know from the video card thread that it does happen and can lead to a fix on occasion. I'm not even suggesting your wrong in this case, but how did you come to this diagnosis and conclusion?
 

Starfalcon

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The wording and sentence structure of this poster almost looks like something a bot would post. I read what he posted several times and couldnt quite figure out what they were trying to say.
 

lopoetve

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I ordered another of the same motherboard. The few motherboards I have with this problem I will attempt to reflow with flux made for reflow and a picture
of this heat guns advertisment shows the use for Graphics cards & Motherboard solder reflow.

TECCPO Power Heat Gun 1500W Professional Hot Air Gun Craft ...

https://www.ebay.com › ... › Power Tools › Heat Guns

Many other advertisments for this type of heat gun, that is used by electronic technicians. 250 degree's C, for several seconds, with liquid flux put under the
CPU holder, and it is supposed to work.

I am surprised that few if any posts are about this topic.
Why would there be posts? We don't generally break motherboards - the ones I've had die tend to be 7+ years old, or had something ~else~ take it out (cough 6800XT cough) when it died. On top of that, it's generally cheaper to just replace the board than try to repair it - especially given how sensitive so many parts of them are.
 

Macho

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I have a serious questions here: Why do you think you need to reflow the solder? This is not a common need. That's why computer repair shops don't have the equipment for it. They don't need it and really never have. I've been fixing these things professionally for decades. Secondly, I've been reviewing motherboards for over a decade and a half. I've had HUNDREDs of motherboards cross my test bench. I rebuild my personal computer at least once a year and have for 25 years. I've had multiple systems at a time as well. I've owned probably more than three dozen motherboards personally. As a service technician in high volume service centers, I've serviced thousands of systems and worked with 10's of thousands of them in data centers in the IT industry.

I've never run across this problem. Ever. The symptoms you describe in your first post aren't necessarily symptoms of the problem you describe. People don't generally move motherboards to new cases all that often. They rarely get flexed enough to damage the soldier joints. If you flex the PCB too hard, you are probably just as likely to damage traces in the PCB. Even if reflowing the solder on some of these boards would have fixed them, it wouldn't have offset the cost of the machine. In other words, replace the thing and move on with your life.

Why do you think you need to do this? What process of logic and troubleshooting did you use to come to the conclusion that this was something you needed to do to fix this problem, and that it's worth it? I'm not saying reflowing solder wouldn't fix some boards or that it was never needed. We know from the video card thread that it does happen and can lead to a fix on occasion. I'm not even suggesting your wrong in this case, but how did you come to this diagnosis and conclusion?
I wanted ASUS motherboards when I saw how rugged they were. H.P. motherboards are rugged and the same as the high-end ASUS. Now I also like other
more recent motherboards and the H.P. Omen that was never made is a very fine, mATX high-quality printed circuit board. They may need to be reworked and you
can buy them by the hundreds. MSI is too fine an mATX printed circuit board to have this happen to any of them too.

http://www.easyBGA.com is sold on eBay, but you can D.I.Y. Not much profit electronics sometimes to have anyone want the liability to work on your GPU or
motherboard. MSI says, "No authorized dealers to provide this service in your Counties." A good reason not to buy a foreign product without local regional service.

The way YouTube works is that other similar videos come up concerning BGA re-balling, reflowing, so every video that I see coming up is about this issue. Hundreds of us out there reflowing our own GPU. A rework station has a lower and upper heater and a camera. A temperature controller with a thermocouple. If this was what makes the computer repairman money, they would have one. They want work to do hundreds of them that are all having this need to be reflowed and reworked.

I have an Associates' degree in Computer Electronics and like to tinker. I know how to do a lot more than a noob, so you do not NEED this to be a superUSER and be in this computer building fraternity to need to do this. A simple handheld hot air blow gun may solve your GPU issue instead of tossing a high-priced GPU out in the trash, why not try it and let me know how you too are doing with it.
 

Starfalcon

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I am now convinced this has to be a bot linking things now, It seems to be fitting keywords into random sentences that dont parse.
 

Macho

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This heater gun is shown used to heat up a surface mounted component. Many others, that need to be in the lower setting. Some have temperature settings so you can not go too hot.
We used to have printed circuit boards with through hole plating so we knew we had a good connection. Surface mounted components are not put through a drilled hole, but on a pad. With a microscope you can look at these connections. A balled or BGA component such as your CPU holder has little balls that are each heated to melt to the CPU holder and then it is placed on the motherboard. A machine like, http://www.easyBGA.com is used with a heater on the bottom and the top and the component is placed on its pads and heated up to the exact temperature.
Originally I thought there was people out there advertising to do this for us after we bring our motherboard to them at the computer repair shop, and give us 20 minutes of their valuable time to reflow our motherboard for us. There is no one eager to have this done and deal with any irate customer about how effective it is afterwards. None of you like the idea either apparently.
 

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pendragon1

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There is no one eager to have this done and deal with any irate customer about how effective it is afterwards. None of you like the idea either apparently.
we all know this concept, most have never seen it used in a shop as its rarely needed, except for at the rohs transition point where there were issues. we are also confused by your sentence structure and phrasing, it sounds like you are using a translator or are a bot....
 
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lopoetve

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That last one sounds like a sentence through google translate, then a line from wikipedia. I don't think he's a native english speaker, and I think he's trying to convince us of something by pasting shit from wiki/google.
 

lopoetve

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This heater gun is shown used to heat up a surface mounted component. Many others, that need to be in the lower setting. Some have temperature settings so you can not go too hot.
We used to have printed circuit boards with through hole plating so we knew we had a good connection. Surface mounted components are not put through a drilled hole, but on a pad. With a microscope you can look at these connections. A balled or BGA component such as your CPU holder has little balls that are each heated to melt to the CPU holder and then it is placed on the motherboard. A machine like, http://www.easyBGA.com is used with a heater on the bottom and the top and the component is placed on its pads and heated up to the exact temperature.
Originally I thought there was people out there advertising to do this for us after we bring our motherboard to them at the computer repair shop, and give us 20 minutes of their valuable time to reflow our motherboard for us. There is no one eager to have this done and deal with any irate customer about how effective it is afterwards. None of you like the idea either apparently.
We're all aware of how BGA mounting/flow/prep works. None of us have any interest in trying to repair things that broken - it's more expensive than replacing the hardware, has a low chance of success given the complexity of the parts in question, is likely to damage other parts, and just is not worth the time/effort/money.

You supposedly have two motherboards that you've broken and think this is the repair they need - buy replacements. It'll be cheaper and easier.
 

doubletake

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Unless you are some 2m/200kg behemoth of a man with piss-poor motor control that is constantly yanking motherboards by the CPU coolers, it is extremely unlikely that you are breaking the socket solder joints with what you consider to be regular handling. They do not need a "soft touch". No, slight flexing of the PCB is not going to cause that kind of damage unless again, you are freakishly strong and are grossly underestimating how rough you handle them, or if it's some trash-tier board that has been in terrible conditions for a long period of time (long-term high CPU temps with lots of dust buildup, little/no airflow, etc, could potentially cause that solder breakdown, but very unlikely on most consumer board/CPU combos). Also, why are you even flexing the boards? The only time that I could see that happening and potentially causing damage would be if you tried to very roughly plug in the 24pin cable after installing the board into the case. That or, of course, dropping the board with a heavy CPU tower cooler attached.
 

Macho

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The CPU heat sink looked like it needed screwing down tightly and then re tightening to take up the slack after a few minutes. There should be springs that will
not allow the CPU to be over crushed. After warming up the CPU paste spreads more when it is tight. The HP Z290 Omen was saying that there was an over
heat and to press the enter button. I did not use water cool. It all was working fine until I took it out and did a few small things to get it perfect, and then after
20 minutes, no boot. It went on and then off. 8 long beeps with the beep code. That is the DRAM.
I got a MSI Mag B365M Mortar, and again was OK for a week until a case came it with a 5.25 DVD/CD bay that I wanted. I took it apart and put the motherboard in the new case, and it booted up fine. I pressed the start button to shut it down and it shut down for the last time. Now.. the start button did nothing for a day or so. I tested the power supply and then tightened the CPU heat sink and the cooling fan went on and off, boot LED & DRAM LED on. I loosened it, and tightened it up again and then the cooling fan stayed on and the DRAM LED stays on, and no POST. I tried every memory variation, and nothing for a week of trying different things like un plugging everything and plugging it all back in.
I should get the new motherboard by this Wedsday, since I already ordered it. What about these motherboards ever getting repaired is my thoughts. My hands are
too sticky to throw them in the trash. Can't get myself to throw them away. Still a hope !!!
 

lopoetve

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You’re very clearly doing something very wrong. Are you using standoffs on the case?

You also have zero evidence that it’s the BGA that needs repair. Nor the skills to align that many of them properly.
 

Dan_D

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The CPU heat sink looked like it needed screwing down tightly and then re tightening to take up the slack after a few minutes.
What gave you that idea? This isn't how they work. There isn't enough vibration in a typical system to cause the CPU cooler to loosen after installation. Thermal cycling won't do it either. They don't develop slack over time.
There should be springs that will
not allow the CPU to be over crushed.
This is flat out untrue. If there is still thread on the mount to engage, you can continue to screw it down and overcome any spring tension. It wouldn't be until the spring was fully compressed that it would stop and even then they can still deform and allow for additional travel of the mounting screws. I've seen CPU's crushed with springs in place. It can absolutely happen.
After warming up the CPU paste spreads more when it is tight.
You shouldn't have been reapplying thermal paste on a prebuilt machine at all unless there is some sort of issue and you have some idea what you are doing when trying to repair one. Thermal paste primarily spreads when the pressure of the heatsink or thermal solution is screwed / tightened down. It won't spread much more than that given their properties. I'm not entirely sure what else you are saying but it sounds like you let it heat up and then took the heat sink off to spread the thermal compound more? If so, don't do that. There is no need to do this. Ever.
The HP Z290 Omen was saying that there was an over
heat and to press the enter button.
Because you won't quit messing with things.
I did not use water cool. It all was working fine until I took it out and did a few small things to get it perfect, and then after
20 minutes, no boot. It went on and then off. 8 long beeps with the beep code. That is the DRAM.
Again, what are you trying to get perfect? What makes you think you need to take things apart at all? I don't understand what you are doing and why you are trying to do it.
I got a MSI Mag B365M Mortar, and again was OK for a week until a case came it with a 5.25 DVD/CD bay that I wanted. I took it apart and put the motherboard in the new case, and it booted up fine. I pressed the start button to shut it down and it shut down for the last time. Now.. the start button did nothing for a day or so. I tested the power supply and then tightened the CPU heat sink and the cooling fan went on and off, boot LED & DRAM LED on. I loosened it, and tightened it up again and then the cooling fan stayed on and the DRAM LED stays on, and no POST. I tried every memory variation, and nothing for a week of trying different things like un plugging everything and plugging it all back in.
I should get the new motherboard by this Wedsday, since I already ordered it. What about these motherboards ever getting repaired is my thoughts. My hands are
too sticky to throw them in the trash. Can't get myself to throw them away. Still a hope !!!
You really shouldn't be taking parts out of an OEM like the HP and putting them into a different case without really knowing what you are doing. Sometimes these OEMs use proprietary hardware. You can't just change power supplies and sometimes their mounting screw locations aren't correct for other cases. And quit tightening CPU coolers. There is a chance you damaged the CPU. Intel CPU's can be pushed far enough down into the socket to flatten all the pins, cause shorts and more importantly, crack the CPU's outer edges. It's very likely you damaged pins in the motherboard socket or cracked the CPU and that's why you are getting DRAM errors.

When you break hardware, you throw it away. It's not designed to be cost effective to repair.
 

BBQisGood

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Place the motherboard in the kitchen microwave oven for full 15 minutes and use the "Defrost" setting so that the motherboard isn't damaged by the normal usage setting.
It may begin to spark but that means it is starting to reflow. Soon some smoke will be seen because the prefabulated amulite, surmounted by a malleable BGA casing allows PCB/socket reflows in such a way that modial interaction of magneto-reluctance and capacitive diractance of the solder is reduced.








this is a joke. don't do this.
Trust Dan_D as he knows what he is talking about.
 

Macho

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The manufacture of the motherboard uses BGA & SMD machines that have temperature controllers that reach the exact right temperature. When they send out a
motherboard it usually works since they tested it.

I have never much had this problem that you ALL are having now or are going to have. Possibly they reduced production costs by making the Fibre glass PCB a
little thinner. It may flex just a bit more, and all I am telling you is that you will also have this problem with the motherboards that were made in the last few years.
The balling of the surface mounted CPU holders seems to have the CPU holder .010 thousands off the PCB. That is how thick the solder is. Metal fatigue when this part is
handled, and the fracture may fail. Hopefully this connection is not a "cold solder" connecton. Quickly they raise the temperature to the melting point and with
adequate flux, they process is successful. No reason that we cannot be just as successful.

Re-balling RAM sticks is also what is possible. The memory chip is not what fails but the solder connection. On a GPU you have memory also, but it is not
feasable to have anyone re-ball it.
Other than re-balling, just reflowing it, may do the trick using liquid flux.

Half the job is correctly troubleshooting the problem, and then the fix for it, is next. I am thinking the connection must be almost a cold solder joint in the first place,
or our gentle handling would not have caused any problems.

Good joke.... I will keep it out of the microwave. They use IR heat lamps that quicly heat it. I tried UV-B that reptiles like, and I did not get hot enough. A hot air gun almost will not get hot enough, but do not exceed the correct temperature for more than a few seconds.
 

lopoetve

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The manufacture of the motherboard uses BGA & SMD machines that have temperature controllers that reach the exact right temperature. When they send out a
motherboard it usually works since they tested it.
They also use ultra complex computer controlled systems to do that install and soldering. Not a home heat gun or BGA setup!
I have never much had this problem that you ALL are having now or are going to have. Possibly they reduced production costs by making the Fibre glass PCB a
little thinner. It may flex just a bit more, and all I am telling you is that you will also have this problem with the motherboards that were made in the last few years.
I have built 10 systems in the last 3 years. I have not had this issue on any of them, with RAM, motherboards, or GPUs. You’re doing something wrong with the install process - I suspect it’s cranking down tension on the HSF mount too far - or your misdiagnosing your issue entirely. Motherboards can flex some - always have been able to. This isn’t an issue people encounter.
The balling of the surface mounted CPU holders seems to have the CPU holder .010 thousands off the PCB. That is how thick the solder is. Metal fatigue when this part is
handled, and the fracture may fail. Hopefully this connection is not a "cold solder" connecton. Quickly they raise the temperature to the melting point and with
adequate flux, they process is successful. No reason that we cannot be just as successful.
We know how the process works. There’s no way in gods green earth you should be bending the cpu area enough to break those links. Again, you’re clearly doing something you shouldn’t be. What are you trying to accomplish? Do you have pictures of the process you did? How much did you crank those screws down?
Re-balling RAM sticks is also what is possible. The memory chip is not what fails but the solder connection. On a GPU you have memory also, but it is not
feasable to have anyone re-ball it.
Other than re-balling, just reflowing it, may do the trick using liquid flux.
No…
Half the job is correctly troubleshooting the problem, and then the fix for it, is next. I am thinking the connection must be almost a cold solder joint in the first place,
or our gentle handling would not have caused any problems.
No…. You didn’t handle it gently if you had this issue. Hell, I’ve pushed motherboards in to get them past tight clearances and didn’t have this issue!
Good joke.... I will keep it out of the microwave. They use IR heat lamps that quicly heat it. I tried UV-B that reptiles like, and I did not get hot enough. A hot air gun almost will not get hot enough, but do not exceed the correct temperature for more than a few seconds.
You’re going to make it worse. If anything.

Look, a modern system can boot without the head sink installed. It’ll thermally throttle to 286 levels but it’ll boot. You’re doing something very wrong. What exactly have you done to these systems?
 
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Starfalcon

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I still think this is a bot, pulling phrases from a wiki and stringing them together in wierd ways, based on what people say in responses.
 

Macho

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There used to be Geek Squads out there from BestBuy. Authorized Factory Representitives. Their feedback to the manufacturer could advise an
increase of 5 degrees C. hotter, for 5 seconds longer. It would be hard to X-Ray this balled solder connection at the factory. Maybe they had a few chilly days
and some were not as good, but how would they know? Authorized Dealers is how a copier company such as Savin Business Machines used when they closed
their branches circa 1975. They filed a withdrawal. The Authorized Dealer moved their product better than they did, and any irate customer could now talk to HERB, or
someone else to focus their pampering needs.
Staples, BestBuys and others are Authorized Dealers, but they need a lot of numbers and serial numbers to even get a product Registered. These Authorized Dealers do not want to be bothered by "bot" talk either.

I thought to call a plumber with a hot air gun or a painter with a skill, at the right price. Put pressure on a plumber for complete satisfaction.
 

Macho

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I selected SHARE to use this YouTube video since you show an interest.
 

michalrz

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OP, let's assume you're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you.
You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back.
The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping...
 

lopoetve

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OP, let's assume you're in a desert, walking along in the sand, when all of a sudden you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you.
You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back.
The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't. Not without your help. But you're not helping...
Cells interlinked.
 

lopoetve

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There used to be Geek Squads out there from BestBuy. Authorized Factory Representitives. Their feedback to the manufacturer could advise an
increase of 5 degrees C. hotter, for 5 seconds longer.
No. Resellers at that level never interacted with manufacturers at that level. Source: I worked (until last week) at one of the manufacturers in question.
It would be hard to X-Ray this balled solder connection at the factory. Maybe they had a few chilly days
It would not be hard, and random samples are done. This is not the issue you're encountering.
and some were not as good, but how would they know?
Because random sampling of parts pre-shipment to assembly centers happens, because the assembly center tests teh system before they package it for sale, and there's support if they fucked up and something slips through or breaks in shipment.
Authorized Dealers is how a copier company such as Savin Business Machines used when they closed
their branches circa 1975.
They closed their branches when they moved to resellers and indirect sales. That has nothing to do with this. Neither do copiers have anything to do with motherboards in modern systems.
They filed a withdrawal. The Authorized Dealer moved their product better than they did, and any irate customer could now talk to HERB, or
someone else to focus their pampering needs.
Yep. So why didn't you call support when the system didnt' work right?
Staples, BestBuys and others are Authorized Dealers, but they need a lot of numbers and serial numbers to even get a product Registered. These Authorized Dealers do not want to be bothered by "bot" talk either.
What.
I thought to call a plumber with a hot air gun or a painter with a skill, at the right price. Put pressure on a plumber for complete satisfaction.
What.

Look. You broke your computer. Buy a new one and don't fuck with it. There are very good prebuilts out there. Pick. One. And don't mess with it.
 
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