More DLSS...

Shadowarez

Gawd
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Jul 8, 2019
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just tried this in outriders replacing the file made dlss turn to grey option as in couldnt use it. restored the file not greyed out.
 

noko

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I tried Control and it works, I didn't see any improvements.
 

oldmanbal

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Hm, on Epic it just added a whole new game to my library of games specifically called Enhanced Edition.
Yeah, it's a completely different build of the game with a revamped lighting engine based off ray tracing. Instead of having the baked in light sources from lamps, cracks in a dark building, ect, they are just using fully ray-casted global illumination from their natural light sources. The game isn't designed to run without a gpu capable of hardware raytracing in real time. The first gen 2xxx series cards take a much harder hit than the newer 3xxx series cards with 2nd gen ray tracing cores, and increased core counts in those respective areas. Some of the more significant changes can be seen when objects scatter their light into the environment when light reflects off of them onto walls, ceilings, and floors. The natural light from the sun and artificial light actually lights up rooms more dramatically then before, which slightly changes the look of some scenes, but overall still holds the ominous, post nuclear war survival vibe well.

The water reflections could have been implemented better, as there are several instances that leave visuals to be desired.

Some of the smaller, more intimate scenes that show characters sitting in close proximity surrounding a single light source like a lamp are much better represented by the new lighting. Many of these cutscenes and conversations come to life and add a deeper element to the visual medium.

As I played through the Enhanced Edition of Metro Exodus, all I could think was that all games should be lit like this, and we're definitely moving in the right direction. There's definitely a certain look that videogame lighting has had for the last 20 years, and much like movies being locked to a cinematic 24fps, many of the scenes looked off, or less accurately lit with fully raytraced global illumination. Once we get more accustomed to full global illumination through ray tracing, I think that it would be hard to ever go back to baked in lighting in videogames. However, the adoption cost, heavy hardware hit, and developer adoption will certainly take some time.

One thing that ray traced lighting has going for it, is that from a developer perspective, it takes about a quarter of the time to light a scene than standard static lighting does. And when you make changes, you don't have to go in a rework all of the lighting to accommodate for artistic choices. For game designers this represents a shift in flexibility that they may have never experienced before.
 

chameleoneel

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One thing that ray traced lighting has going for it, is that from a developer perspective, it takes about a quarter of the time to light a scene than standard static lighting does. And when you make changes, you don't have to go in a rework all of the lighting to accommodate for artistic choices. For game designers this represents a shift in flexibility that they may have never experienced before.
I see this last point being said all over the internet. And while it is true if inside of a box: The reality is that Ray tracking is more work, right now. Because its in its infancy. Devs have to learn how to implement it. But also, they still have to have a "classically" lit version of the game, for numerous reasons.

1. to support hardware without ray tracing, which isn't exactly old. Most PC gamers do not have ray tracking capable graphics cards.

2. to offer a version of the game with better performance, because consumers/gamers demand it. More performance offers flexibility to choose resolution, refresh rate. And also scales across more hardware. I have an RTX 2060. That doesn't mean I can play a ray traced version of a game at a framerate and resolution acceptable to me.
Its a very similar situation on the new consoles. All of them have ray tracing capability. But it usually comes with a big hit to resolution or cutting the framerate in half, from 60, to 30. And don't even think about a 120fps mode. So console games are now coming with multiple graphics mode. We are basically seeing full quality/max res with ray tracing, 30fps. And then either no Ray Tracing, full quality/max res 60. or some sort of hybrid mode which allows 60fps, some quality level of ray tracing, and a few cuts in other aspects of quality. And then 120hz modes which are usually no ray tracing as well as a resolution cut.

And then there is the Xbox Series S, which basically forces any game shipping for Xbox, to have a non-ray tracing mode. The new version of Exodus runs on Series S with ray tracing. but there are LARGE cut backs in every other area of the visuals. And series S already needs cuts for regular visuals, anyway. Personally, I would not play the ray tracing mode of Exodus, on Series S. Its not pretty. And I say that as someone who generally isn't worried about maxing everything out.

We also have two very different hardware implementations for how to accelerate ray tracing. Because of this, some games aren't shipping with support for both. And later get a patch, once the devs have had time to learn and optimize for whichever they left out.


We are a long way off from Ray Tracing being a full replacement of the lighting for most games. Even if GPU prices weren't insane. You are still looking at $300 minimum, for a ray tracing capable GPU. A GPU which barely makes framerate par, in most RTX situations. And costs $50 - $100 more than the average price of the most popular GPUs on steam.

and all prices aside, we are still 2 or even 3 generations of GPU away, from most of the product stack being able to realistically offer Ray Tracing as a replacement for large portions of "classic" rendering, while still offering flexibility for the user. and then we still have to wonder when that capability will actually be shifted down to the mainstream pricing of $200 - $250. Because that price bracket has not seen a lot of performance improvement, for a few years. Let alone, ray tracing.

Especially in this age where so many people say its poopoo if it ain't 1440p or 4K. I mean, most steam gamers still have 1080p displays. But the industry is constantly pushing 4K. And enthusiast communities such as [H] are also pretty focused on 4k and 1440p. I don't even see many 1080p high refresh people here. I don't know on which plane those people exist!

DLSS and FSR makes the limited Ray Tracing in games so far, just barely acceptable in terms of flexibility to the user. Metro's new version is an exceptional product. Which they clearly spent a lot of time and extra money on getting that done. But its also a whole new version of the game. It wasn't a trivial project. And most devs won't have the time to do all of that, anyway. We aren't going to see revamped versions for most games.
It does however point to the possibility that there is some refinement possible, to squeeze more performance from the same hardware. So, it makes me hopeful that new games will look better and not perform worse. Much like the new Metro Exodus version. It looks better and performs better.

I don't expect everyone else to suddenly start shipping such well performing solutions. But also by "well performing" I mean that the $300 and $400 MSRP graphics cards don't look like total shit, compared to their bigger siblings. But $400 is still a lot of money for a graphics card....
 
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cybereality

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Funny that they add the name after it is called exactly that in FSR.

Quality looks pretty good, great that there is competition now.
 

FrgMstr

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Funny that they add the name after it is called exactly that in FSR.

Quality looks pretty good, great that there is competition now.
1625162855086.png
 

Baasha

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Feb 23, 2014
Messages
152
Ray Tracing and DLSS support to Doom Eternal is great.

When will DLSS 2.2 come out as an update? Or where can I get the DLL file and implement it?
 

SPARTAN VI

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Ray Tracing and DLSS support to Doom Eternal is great.

When will DLSS 2.2 come out as an update? Or where can I get the DLL file and implement it?
Here's the DLSS 2.2.6 DLL file from R6:Siege.

Only have to replace the old DLL file with this new one (recommend you back up the old one) in their respective games' folders.
 
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Shadowarez

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iv had zero luck with this in a few games replacing the file disables the option to even use dlss.
 

SPARTAN VI

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oh i have metro enhanced ill try that as well.
With Metro Exodus Enhanced, you have to opt-in to the beta to load enhanced edition build. The DLSS 2.2.6 file will not work for Metro Exodus (i.e. you wont be able to enable DLSS) if you don't do this. Note: This was for the GOG.com version, IDK if you have to opt-in for the enhanced edition to work in Steam.
 
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Shadowarez

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ahh so ther isa few quarks with some games ill tinker with this when get chance thank you.
 

jobert

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I didn't do anything except simply replace the dll file in Metro Exodus enhanced, No Man's Sky, Control, Death Stranding and Cyberpunk 2077.
 

newls1

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I didn't do anything except simply replace the dll file in Metro Exodus enhanced, No Man's Sky, Control, Death Stranding and Cyberpunk 2077.
yep, same here, replaced the file with the 2.2.6 version and it worked perfectly fine. techpowerup posted a new 2.2.10 file this morning, anyone try it yet?
 

Marees

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Yes, has to be direct ML. Will be used in series X. So I was under the assumption that it is a future feature




https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-glossary/

Microsoft is looking for senior and principal software engineers who specialise in computer graphics and machine learning to fill out the Xbox team with capable minds for the task. (of Machine Learning Super Sampling)

"Xbox is leveraging machine learning to make traditional rendering algorithms more efficient and to provide better alternatives.
The Xbox graphics team is seeking an engineer who will implement machine learning algorithms in graphics software to delight millions of gamers. Work closely with partners to develop software for future machine learning hardware. Make a big impact in computer graphics and gaming."

This is either going to manifest as a DLSS-esque solution, or perhaps it could end in a complete overhaul of the process, to create something entirely new.


https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/microso...logy-powered-by-ai/?__twitter_impression=true
 

oldmanbal

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I see this last point being said all over the internet. And while it is true if inside of a box: The reality is that Ray tracking is more work, right now. Because its in its infancy. Devs have to learn how to implement it. But also, they still have to have a "classically" lit version of the game, for numerous reasons.

1. to support hardware without ray tracing, which isn't exactly old. Most PC gamers do not have ray tracking capable graphics cards.

Goddamn Heathens
 

Armenius

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Messages
28,278
I see this last point being said all over the internet. And while it is true if inside of a box: The reality is that Ray tracking is more work, right now. Because its in its infancy. Devs have to learn how to implement it. But also, they still have to have a "classically" lit version of the game, for numerous reasons.

1. to support hardware without ray tracing, which isn't exactly old. Most PC gamers do not have ray tracking capable graphics cards.

2. to offer a version of the game with better performance, because consumers/gamers demand it. More performance offers flexibility to choose resolution, refresh rate. And also scales across more hardware. I have an RTX 2060. That doesn't mean I can play a ray traced version of a game at a framerate and resolution acceptable to me.
Its a very similar situation on the new consoles. All of them have ray tracing capability. But it usually comes with a big hit to resolution or cutting the framerate in half, from 60, to 30. And don't even think about a 120fps mode. So console games are now coming with multiple graphics mode. We are basically seeing full quality/max res with ray tracing, 30fps. And then either no Ray Tracing, full quality/max res 60. or some sort of hybrid mode which allows 60fps, some quality level of ray tracing, and a few cuts in other aspects of quality. And then 120hz modes which are usually no ray tracing as well as a resolution cut.

And then there is the Xbox Series S, which basically forces any game shipping for Xbox, to have a non-ray tracing mode. The new version of Exodus runs on Series S with ray tracing. but there are LARGE cut backs in every other area of the visuals. And series S already needs cuts for regular visuals, anyway. Personally, I would not play the ray tracing mode of Exodus, on Series S. Its not pretty. And I say that as someone who generally isn't worried about maxing everything out.

We also have two very different hardware implementations for how to accelerate ray tracing. Because of this, some games aren't shipping with support for both. And later get a patch, once the devs have had time to learn and optimize for whichever they left out.


We are a long way off from Ray Tracing being a full replacement of the lighting for most games. Even if GPU prices weren't insane. You are still looking at $300 minimum, for a ray tracing capable GPU. A GPU which barely makes framerate par, in most RTX situations. And costs $50 - $100 more than the average price of the most popular GPUs on steam.

and all prices aside, we are still 2 or even 3 generations of GPU away, from most of the product stack being able to realistically offer Ray Tracing as a replacement for large portions of "classic" rendering, while still offering flexibility for the user. and then we still have to wonder when that capability will actually be shifted down to the mainstream pricing of $200 - $250. Because that price bracket has not seen a lot of performance improvement, for a few years. Let alone, ray tracing.

Especially in this age where so many people say its poopoo if it ain't 1440p or 4K. I mean, most steam gamers still have 1080p displays. But the industry is constantly pushing 4K. And enthusiast communities such as [H] are also pretty focused on 4k and 1440p. I don't even see many 1080p high refresh people here. I don't know on which plane those people exist!

DLSS and FSR makes the limited Ray Tracing in games so far, just barely acceptable in terms of flexibility to the user. Metro's new version is an exceptional product. Which they clearly spent a lot of time and extra money on getting that done. But its also a whole new version of the game. It wasn't a trivial project. And most devs won't have the time to do all of that, anyway. We aren't going to see revamped versions for most games.
It does however point to the possibility that there is some refinement possible, to squeeze more performance from the same hardware. So, it makes me hopeful that new games will look better and not perform worse. Much like the new Metro Exodus version. It looks better and performs better.

I don't expect everyone else to suddenly start shipping such well performing solutions. But also by "well performing" I mean that the $300 and $400 MSRP graphics cards don't look like total shit, compared to their bigger siblings. But $400 is still a lot of money for a graphics card....
Man, I miss the days when people were excited about games made beyond the current hardware saturation like Far Cry, Doom 3 and Crysis. Now most people just continually whine about games running poorly on their 7-10 year old hardware, or that they can't run "max" settings on their mid-tier video card. If technology endlessly catered to the masses then it wouldn't be able to move forward.
 

Aireoth

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Man, I miss the days when people were excited about games made beyond the current hardware saturation like Far Cry, Doom 3 and Crysis. Now most people just continually whine about games running poorly on their 7-10 year old hardware, or that they can't run "max" settings on their mid-tier video card. If technology endlessly catered to the masses then it wouldn't be able to move forward.
We still exist, its more a symptom of more people gaming and shoving the original voice out and replacing it with theirs. Gaming so mainstream now it even has identity politics all up in it, I don't even know a single gamer that gives a hoot about id politics.
 

Gideon

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Man, I miss the days when people were excited about games made beyond the current hardware saturation like Far Cry, Doom 3 and Crysis. Now most people just continually whine about games running poorly on their 7-10 year old hardware, or that they can't run "max" settings on their mid-tier video card. If technology endlessly catered to the masses then it wouldn't be able to move forward.

Majority don't want to spend what the current prices of video cards are. Until prices go back down the gaming end will continue to stagnate as people that bought a 200 dollar video card are not going to decided to spend 1,000 or more to upgrade. You need the masses to upgrade if you want technology to move forward.
 

cybereality

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Man, I miss the days when people were excited about games made beyond the current hardware saturation like Far Cry, Doom 3 and Crysis. Now most people just continually whine about games running poorly on their 7-10 year old hardware, or that they can't run "max" settings on their mid-tier video card. If technology endlessly catered to the masses then it wouldn't be able to move forward.
You could argue that ray tracing is the modern day Crysis. Even when I had the 2080 Ti, ray tracing was slow as hell without DLSS. If prices were at MSRP, I could see lots of people upgrading.
 

madpistol

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I'm definitely excited for Ray Tracing. The first few implementations of this tech were expensive and didn't yield much of a difference visually. Now, some developers (4A Games and id) have learned how to implement Ray Tracing without absolutely annihilating performance. DLSS also lessens the blow and each iteration is getting better (Fidelity FX is cool, but it's literally a blur filter).

The problem that Ray Tracing presents is that people don't immediately see the advantage that Ray Tracing presents compared to standard Rasterized Lighting models and Screen Space reflections. Far Cry, Doom 3, and Crysis were all graphics monsters of their time and looked so much better than anything on the market at the time.

As we've seen, Ray Tracing can be done in software or normal shader hardware, but it is painfully slow in those instances. Nvidia is now on their 2nd generation of RT core, and even now, we wish it was faster. Of course, that's the exact same thing that happened when Far Cry (massive geometry and lighting/shadowing in an open world), Doom 3 (Crazy Lighting and Real-Time Shadows), and Crysis (Far Cry, but 10x more) were introduced. The solution is that overtime, Nvidia and AMD will introduce more powerful hardware to help cope with the increasing load of Ray Tracing. DLSS will also get better, hopefully eventually matching and/or exceeding the fidelity offered by native resolution rendering. I guess we will see.
 

chameleoneel

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Marvel’s Avengers– Native 4K versus Nvidia DLSS versus AMD FSR

https://www.dsogaming.com/pc-perfor...-native-4k-versus-nvidia-dlss-versus-amd-fsr/
IMO, DLSS in those screenshots appears over sharpened. Not just that, though. it appears to also affect (boost) the midtones, similar to the "clarity" shader effect. Which IMO, if you use Clarity (or something like it), you really gotta be careful with sharpness boosts.

Reportedly, in the newest version of DLSS, Nvidia has given devs a "slider" to adjust the amount of sharpening. I'd like to see devs just give that to us in the game menu options.
 

jologskyblues

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I've been playing BFV again lately. Noticed that DLSS 1.0 in that game is much improved as of July 2021. At 3440x1440, the image is now better than native with TAA whereas before, it was much blurrier. I also noticed that the ghost trails on planes and far-off moving players are not noticeable anymore.
 

jologskyblues

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Pics Jologskyblues? Maybe EA/Dice slipped in an update without saying anything?
Screenshot (3).png


Screenshot (8).png


I don't know if EA/Dice did anything. Don't quote me on this, but from what I've read in the past about DLSS 1.0, AFAIK, the resulting updated inference information from the per-game training on Nvidia's side are supposedly sent via driver updates.

One thing that I realized while testing this out, is that unlike DLSS 2.0, DLSS 1.0 apparently only supports certain GPUs and resolution configurations so the DLSS setting is greyed out in this case. I had to do this work-around via GFE to force DLSS 1.0 in BFV.

Untitled.png


Screenshot (7).png
 

jobert

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I have not seen another person, including reviewers that test this stuff, mention a single thing about DLSS being improved in BF V.
 

jologskyblues

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I have not seen another person, including reviewers that test this stuff, mention a single thing about DLSS being improved in BF V.
My theory is that most folks just got so dissappointed at DLSS 1.0 when it first came out that no one really bothered to enable it, much less, the reviewers re-testing it around two years after it came out since they have already moved on. I would be very interested to see other people's feedback should they decide to revisit this game's DLSS implementation.
 

oldmanbal

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I wish someone could definitively show how much if any of the Tensor Cores are actually used when implementing DLSS. Essentially all of the work has already been done by Nvidia in designing the algorithm, so theoretically the load on the end user should be comparatively light. I'm not sure how you would go about acquiring this data, as testing power draw with DLSS on/off would possibly also just variably change if the gpu was doing more work to enable it aside from the tensor core load.

Anecdotally I really like the implementation of DLSS in Edge of Eternity if you haven't checked it out, it's a much needed AA mode that the game wouldn't otherwise even have.
 
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