LED vs Plasma. Why is LED so much more expensive?

GreenGoose

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Plasma has burn in. Sports, video games, or news/weather channels will cause long term damage.

Wrong. New Plasma technology does not suffer from this. Plasma looks way better than LCD/LED in my opinion.
 

mathesar

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I was reading CNET's LCD vs LED vs Plasma article and this is what they have to say about burn-in:

Burn-in:
Tie

Gotcha! All TVs can burn in. It's unlikely you'll abuse them enough for this to happen (think airport arrival/departure displays). Plasmas can have image persistence, which has the outward appearance of burn-in, but isn't permanent. For more on this, check out my article Is plasma burn-in a problem?

The short version? You're going to notice image persistence long before it will become a problem."
 

NIZMOZ

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^^ well mine is permanent. Saying it can't be is false. Mine has been there for years, and running the white/black bar for image burn in reset (whatever it's called on the samsung) for at least a few days continuous it never fixed it.
 
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one swell foop

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^^ well mine is permanent. Saying it can't be is false. Mine has been there for years, and running the white/black bar for image burn in reset (whatever it's called on the samsung) for at least a few days continuous it never fixed it.

Permanent means forever. Just because you haven't managed to fix it yet doesn't mean that the persistence on yours is "permanent". You said yourself that weather and news channels were displayed on the monitor for about 18 hours a day. You ask for burn in, you'll get it. Just because your usage pattern is far outside the norm doesn't mean that anyone that buys a plasma will suffer from the same problems.

You're trying to argue over principle when you have yet to prove that the burn in on your plasmas is actually permanent simply because it hasn't yet gone away. Until you can bring a better or new argument to the table, please stop with this one.
 
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LancerJay

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I don't treat my plasma any different than previous CRTs i've owned and its burn in free with over 17k hours in the last 5 years of ownership, The majority of those hours are from gaming as well, Wii,360, PS3 & PC all hooked up to it.

hours%202-19-12_.jpg

Is that a Kuro Elite? I remember when I first laid my eyes on it. Couldn't believe the black levels.
 

GreenMonkey

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You're trying to argue over principle when you have yet to prove that the burn in on your plasmas is actually permanent simply because it hasn't yet gone away. Until you can bring a better or new argument to the table, please stfu with this one.

It's possible he has real burn-in. If you abuse the shit out of your plasma and never take it out of torch mode (properly calibrate your TV!!) you can certainly burn it in. Especially when the TV is fairly new. I find most of the people with permanent burn in now either A) treated it badly out of the box (like 90% 4:3 viewing in torch mode) or B) run the same content for hours and hours at a time without watching it.

I've played hours of Gears 1/3 or fighting games without anything more than some temporary IR (that you can only see if you walk up to the TV and squint at it).

Honestly, if you're one of those people that leaves a TV on for 12+ hours at a time every day for background noise on a weather or news channel, you shouldn't have a plasma. If nothing else, the amount of electricity dollars you are burning boggles my mind :eek: Turn off the TV already and turn on the radio or something!

And yes, you can burn in an LCD. Just ask anyone that has worked at a datacenter. It's much more difficult than a CRT or a plasma, but yeah, you can do it.
 

NIZMOZ

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Permanent means forever. Just because you haven't managed to fix it yet doesn't mean that the persistence on yours is "permanent". You said yourself that weather and news channels were displayed on the monitor for about 18 hours a day. You ask for burn in, you'll get it. Just because your usage pattern is far outside the norm doesn't mean that anyone that buys a plasma will suffer from the same problems.

You're trying to argue over principle when you have yet to prove that the burn in on your plasmas is actually permanent simply because it hasn't yet gone away. Until you can bring a better or new argument to the table, please stfu with this one.

Samsung said it was permanent and wanted a lot of money to replace the screen. There is no fixing it without replacing it. Sorry that you are wrong and hate to admit it.

Sorry, just more of a reason to not get a Plasma because of this issue preventing people from watching their tv's the same way we watched our Tube TV's. Again, the TV isn't on that channel for 18 hours a day. It is on there for maybe 2-3 at different times, and then it's watching other shows.

No need to start attaching me or cussing. Against forum rules.
 

NIZMOZ

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The day we got it home, we did the calibration, and lowered the brightness and all the settings down to prevent Burn in. we actually LEFT them there for 2 years and it still burned in. So we said forget it and turned the up after that as it didn't help.

It's possible he has real burn-in. If you abuse the shit out of your plasma and never take it out of torch mode (properly calibrate your TV!!) you can certainly burn it in. Especially when the TV is fairly new. I find most of the people with permanent burn in now either A) treated it badly out of the box (like 90% 4:3 viewing in torch mode) or B) run the same content for hours and hours at a time without watching it.

I've played hours of Gears 1/3 or fighting games without anything more than some temporary IR (that you can only see if you walk up to the TV and squint at it).

Honestly, if you're one of those people that leaves a TV on for 12+ hours at a time every day for background noise on a weather or news channel, you shouldn't have a plasma. If nothing else, the amount of electricity dollars you are burning boggles my mind :eek: Turn off the TV already and turn on the radio or something!

And yes, you can burn in an LCD. Just ask anyone that has worked at a datacenter. It's much more difficult than a CRT or a plasma, but yeah, you can do it.
 

bigdogchris

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As a gamer I chose a 50" Panasonic 1080p 3D Plasma. It cost a lot less than a comparable LED and I don't have to deal with much pixel blur from motion that many LCD's have. After 14 months I don't have any burn-in. Sometimes after watching a program there may be some image retention but it goes away after a while. Plus it has a built in image retention wipe that I have ran a couple times.
 

SH1

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So there's a risk of burn-in or other issues.

This is an enthusiast forum, which presumably means raw image quality in the case of displays. And for flat panel right now that appears to generally be plasma.
 

dandragonrage

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You know what bothers me? "LED TVs"

The only "LED TV" is an OLED TV. This is the same old LCD vs plasma BS, except these LCDs have LED backlights, which offer little advantage other than longevity (unless you get a local dimming set - which still won't match plasma's quality) and less color shift as the backlight ages. These are good things, but said sets are still LCD TVs, not LED TVs. The phrase LED TV implies that the actual screen is LED. It should be false advertising to use such a term for any kind of LCD TV, even if the backlight is LED (whoop-de-doo).

I've had a Panasonic G10 plasma for... 2.5 years or so? I notice image persistence sometimes but it goes away quite quickly. No burn-in. If you're not leaving your TV on the same image for days, then you're not going to get burn-in. The image persistence is annoying, but I have a TV with a more realistic picture, better blacks and better viewing angles than an LCD. And it's not like LCD can't get image persistence. My first LCD monitor was a Dell 2005FPW and that thing had CRAZY image persistence, far worse than I've ever seen in my plasma. It took literally weeks to go away, as opposed to minutes on my plasma.
 
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bastage

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LED vs Plasma. Why is LED so much more expensive?

Marketing...

And for those saying LED is thinner, You must not be looking at the LED backlit Plasma's that dont carry the same premium as the LED backlit LCD's..

Edit: also Burn in is possible on both LCD & Plasma, neither of which significantly more or less suceptable then the other.
 

NIZMOZ

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You know what bothers me? "LED TVs"

The only "LED TV" is an OLED TV. This is the same old LCD vs plasma BS, except these LCDs have LED backlights, which offer little advantage other than longevity (unless you get a local dimming set - which still won't match plasma's quality) and less color shift as the backlight ages. These are good things, but said sets are still LCD TVs, not LED TVs. The phrase LED TV implies that the actual screen is LED. It should be false advertising to use such a term for any kind of LCD TV, even if the backlight is LED (whoop-de-doo).

I've had a Panasonic G10 plasma for... 2.5 years or so? I notice image persistence sometimes but it goes away quite quickly. No burn-in. If you're not leaving your TV on the same image for days, then you're not going to get burn-in.

Again, there is still a chance for some that you will. Our TV may have seen Weather Channel at least 2 hours a day straight. Then it would watch other shows, etc. But we would still go back to check the weather channel or other channels throughout the day but not leave it there. Either way, just by that type of usage, it burned in on ours and ruined it. We can only see it on white screens or light backgrounds so it doesn't bother us.
 

one swell foop

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Samsung said it was permanent and wanted a lot of money to replace the screen. There is no fixing it without replacing it. Sorry that you are wrong and hate to admit it.

Sorry, just more of a reason to not get a Plasma because of this issue preventing people from watching their tv's the same way we watched our Tube TV's. Again, the TV isn't on that channel for 18 hours a day. It is on there for maybe 2-3 at different times, and then it's watching other shows.

No need to start attaching me or cussing. Against forum rules.

I neither cussed nor attacked you. I used an acronym. You abused your display and are mad about the results. You insist that others are going to have the same problem regardless of usage patterns and are repeating the same argument again and again. This doesn't advance the discussion at all and is irrelevant to people who play games, watch movies, or use their plasmas normally. Anyone that uses their display like yours should expect burn in.
 

dandragonrage

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Again, there is still a chance for some that you will. Our TV may have seen Weather Channel at least 2 hours a day straight. Then it would watch other shows, etc. But we would still go back to check the weather channel or other channels throughout the day but not leave it there. Either way, just by that type of usage, it burned in on ours and ruined it. We can only see it on white screens or light backgrounds so it doesn't bother us.

What kind of plasma did you have? I looked back through your posts in this thread and didn't see a mention of that.
 

FrgMstr

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Discuss the topic the OP posted or you will be banned for thread crapping, trolling, etc.
 

NIZMOZ

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I neither cussed nor attacked you. I used an acronym. You abused your display and are mad about the results. You insist that others are going to have the same problem regardless of usage patterns and are repeating the same argument again and again. This doesn't advance the discussion at all and is irrelevant to people who play games, watch movies, or use their plasmas normally. Anyone that uses their display like yours should expect burn in.

Either way a moderator had to fix your post. It was still attacking/cussing. No we didn't "abuse" it. We used it the way it's designed to be used as a TV.

You obviously haven't read the topic. The issue here is not insisting that others will get it. I am pointing out to others that say it won't happen that it can.
 

NIZMOZ

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What kind of plasma did you have? I looked back through your posts in this thread and didn't see a mention of that.

Samsung and a Panasonic. Samsung is 5 years old and has the worse burn in, the Panasonic is 2, and has very little.
 

ZoNe

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Hype. Plasmas are better in every way that matters between bezel.
 

rudy

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You have to know the difference between edge lit and local dimming. The only LCDs worth a damn are local dimming. Usually these are the most expensive. And ya go with a plasma unless you do something like stream the stock ticker all day long, or watch the same exact channel all the time, or play the same game.
 

DCVL

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You have to know the difference between edge lit and local dimming. The only LCDs worth a damn are local dimming. Usually these are the most expensive. And ya go with a plasma unless you do something like stream the stock ticker all day long, or watch the same exact channel all the time, or play the same game.

I've read up on the difference which is what brought me to make this thread. I just couldn't wrap my head around why LED TVs are costing so much more than a plasma. Just didn't make any sense (other than simple marketing). Thanks for all the replies.
 

rudy

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To be fair it probably cost more to make a local dimming LCD, you need some sort of processor to group sets of pixels determine the average brightness and adjust the brightness, then you need a big giant PCB with all the LEDs spread out vs just a row of them on the side all controlled at the same levels. Now does it cost a lot more? That is a different question. Also it is worth nothing that almost all high end TVs are also loaded with tons of garbage features that increase the cost, smart TV, better scalars, more inputs, better speakers you immediately disable. ETC... Which is sad because I think most people who can afford a nice TV would never use any of those features when they have a real sound system, an HTPC or at least an Xbox, and would always input at 1080p. Would be really nice if companies like Panasonic and Samsung would put their highest quality panels (LCD or Plasma) into a stripped down TV that is nothing but a monitor, no scalars, no tuner, no speakers, etc...
 

Inu

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To be fair it probably cost more to make a local dimming LCD, you need some sort of processor to group sets of pixels determine the average brightness and adjust the brightness, then you need a big giant PCB with all the LEDs spread out vs just a row of them on the side all controlled at the same levels. Now does it cost a lot more? That is a different question. Also it is worth nothing that almost all high end TVs are also loaded with tons of garbage features that increase the cost, smart TV, better scalars, more inputs, better speakers you immediately disable. ETC... Which is sad because I think most people who can afford a nice TV would never use any of those features when they have a real sound system, an HTPC or at least an Xbox, and would always input at 1080p. Would be really nice if companies like Panasonic and Samsung would put their highest quality panels (LCD or Plasma) into a stripped down TV that is nothing but a monitor, no scalars, no tuner, no speakers, etc...

Exactly... and they could price it so considerably cheaper as well, make it slimmer etc, maybe replace that cost with some REAL 120hz processing.
 

one swell foop

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To be fair it probably cost more to make a local dimming LCD, you need some sort of processor to group sets of pixels determine the average brightness and adjust the brightness, then you need a big giant PCB with all the LEDs spread out vs just a row of them on the side all controlled at the same levels. Now does it cost a lot more? That is a different question. Also it is worth nothing that almost all high end TVs are also loaded with tons of garbage features that increase the cost, smart TV, better scalars, more inputs, better speakers you immediately disable. ETC... Which is sad because I think most people who can afford a nice TV would never use any of those features when they have a real sound system, an HTPC or at least an Xbox, and would always input at 1080p. Would be really nice if companies like Panasonic and Samsung would put their highest quality panels (LCD or Plasma) into a stripped down TV that is nothing but a monitor, no scalars, no tuner, no speakers, etc...

Don't forget the software and developing the algorithms to run the local dimming LEDs, quantity of LEDs in a local dimming setup, and the loss involved in producing LED displays versus plasma displays (which are a little more like CRTs in the way the image is projected and displayed unless I'm totally off base, which I may well be). Getting all those pixels to line up perfectly without a stuck or dead pixel is difficult.

Of course, the software part of it does provide a huge opportunity for markup for a similar product that just uses more accurate algorithms or produce a subjectively better picture due to minor software changes..
 

Ryokurin

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HQzfs.jpg


As promised.

This is a 50 inch LCD at work which has roughly displayed the same image 24/7 over the past three years. I estimate that the retention happened after around six months however. There's a workstation that has a 19 inch LCD where you can actually make out the color of the image that has mostly been displayed on it for roughly 6 years but that area is in use at the moment.
 

rudy

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And Burn-in is possible on LCD too (well in reality, it's image retention, but most people are going to say it's burn in) If you leave something on the screen long enough on everything except CRT it's theoretically possible. If you are leaving a set on 24/7 you should be a industrial grade set, not the set on sale at wal-mart.

The key thing is to get name brand equipment. It's likely that the people still complaining about it today are people who got Vizio's or some other generic type that is using 10 year old chipsets that don't have systems in place to attempt to prevent it.

Correction burn in is possible on a CRT as well. The method in which it happens on a CRT is exactly the same as a plasma. That is why "screen savers" were invented, to protect CRT monitors from unevenly wearing the phosphors so you see a burned in image. I notice this were I work on CRTs hooked up to macs because for whatever reason apple does not think you need screen savers to work on logon screens by default.

However you are absolutely right about LCDs, although the mechanism of action is very different anyone who has been to many airports can attest to LCDs which have clear stuck images.
 

dandragonrage

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You are probably thinking of DLP.

DLP is in fact the only screen technology that does not suffer burn-in. I had a Dell 2005FPW that had image persistence so bad that overnighting UDPixel didn't fix it, so I tried just unplugging it and not using it for TWO WEEKS. After that, I hooked it back up, and it was still not fixed! Just slightly (and I mean slightly) reduced.
 
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Meh today's TVs suck. Miss the Kuro. The king is dead, long live the king.

Might as well wait for OLED before buying the crap that's on the market today. What does it say about TVs in 2012 when a 2008 model still makes them look bad.
 
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Just can't imagine any LED tv that will beat this plasma (except in size perhaps) http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P65VT50

Oh... Panasonic plasmas. The ones that look worse over time while you watch them. Do 2012 models share the same problem as 2008-2011 models where the black level increases with usage? They look great when you get them and look like crap about 6 months later. I made the mistake of buying one once and unloaded it on some douche I didn't like.
 

mathesar

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Oh... Panasonic plasmas. The ones that look worse over time while you watch them. Do 2012 models share the same problem as 2008-2011 models where the black level increases with usage? They look great when you get them and look like crap about 6 months later. I made the mistake of buying one once and unloaded it on some douche I didn't like.

According to this chart it looks like the 2011 models have rising blacks as well, but it's not as bad vs previous years.

3QAlA.jpg


More info here: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_...-long-term-plasma-tv-tests-enter-second-year/
 
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dikky

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I'm a big plasma fan and I got my parents a panasonic one 3 years ago and it has burn in. They watch a TON of 4:3 content and are unwilling to stretch it or use non-black borders, and my dad often falls asleep with the tv on so now their tv has those black bars burned in on the side.

Ive had it running full screen content for dozens of hours and it has made no difference as the phosphors are too far gone due to being unevenly aged for a thousand+ hours

for a family tv don't risk the headache and just get an LCD/LED

if its your personal TV, and you value no clouding, uniform blacks, excellent motion / response time, viewing angles and you are willing to take some minor precautions, then plasma is the way to go.
 

rudy

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If you want to undo the burn in you need to run a ":4:3" picture that is black and the rest of the screen needs to be white. The is will wear down the outsides and eventually it will be pretty good. Simply playing full screen content will still wear down the outsides just as much as the inside. Some TVs have an option to set the background color and another way to even that out is to set the background color to grey or white and tell them to live with that for a bit to fix it.
 
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