Is DLSS The Real Deal?

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If it is, then I don't see how AMD can catch up. Is up scaling resolutions the future? Where do we go from here if Nvidia can double its performance with this trick?
 

Dayaks

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DLSS 2.0 is great but only in a handful of games (generally the ones that need it.).

If they continue their momentum it can be troublesome for AMD.

It’s the taking the native resolution, upscaling, and then displaying it that interested me more than upscaling a lower res. Their white papers said it was free 1.83x SSAA.

Not a huge fan of per game implementation though...
 

cybereality

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Yes, DLSS 2.0 is the real deal. Delivers much needed performance boost for games like Control and makes ray tracing viable.

However, needing developer support is a downside and only a couple games actually support it as of right now.
 
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cybereality

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I wouldn't say it was blurry, though it can have a softer look in the performance mode.

If you use quality mode it basically looks like native res, it's really hard to tell the difference.
 

Auer

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Chunky DLSS thread here: https://hardforum.com/threads/more-dlss.1990492/

The deal with DLSS as far as should it become part of the equation when considering a new GPU......?

Well, If I'm gonna drop over $500 on a GPU it better have DLSS and RT capabilities.
It's a decent chump of cash and I want as much as I can get for it tech vise.

But that's me, and I dont play any 200fps+ games on 1080p so besides DLSS and RT I'd like to see enough raster juice to see games like Fallout76 and No Man's Sky at a comfy cool 4K60fps..

Titles I look forward to with DLSS/RT:
  • Cyberpunk 2077
  • Atomic Heart
  • Watch Dogs: Legion
  • Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice
 

OutOfPhase

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How can AMD catch up? The answer is of course "they need to innovate as well". They can and should be looking for 'killer features' of their own which then put NV in reactive mode.
It's an R&D gunfight. Better invent a gun!
 

Factum

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How can AMD catch up? The answer is of course "they need to innovate as well". They can and should be looking for 'killer features' of their own which then put NV in reactive mode.
It's an R&D gunfight. Better invent a gun!

Ever since CUDA AMD has had an issue with "innovation".
If has become more "Here is this OPEN SOURCE CONCEPT....somebody please run with it.....pretty please?!"...which has turned into the ugly "If not EVERYONE can....then nobody should!!"
Now years later, the lack of innovation is starting to show...and DLSS + DXR really makes the gap very obvious.
 
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1337Goat

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Ever since CUDA AMD has had an issue with "innovation".
If has become more "Here is this OPEN SOURCE CONCEPT....somebody please run with it.....pretty please?!"...which has turned into the ugly "If not EVERYONE can....then nobody should!!"
Now years later, the lack of innovation is starting to show...and DLSS + DXR really makes the gap very obvious.

Closed source technology means death to that technology once the creator gets bored with it.
 

Factum

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Closed source technology means death to that technology once the creator gets bored with it.

Bollocks...Windows is closed source...most used end-user OS.
Take that BS and stuff in Stalhman pipe...

AMD's "opensource" has more dead bodies than NVIDIA's proprietary technologies...and even the added side-effect of killing of functional proprietary technology...after the commie mantra: "If not every one can...no one should be allowed!"

That that BS back to the Linux-subforum....fuck open source.
 

1337Goat

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Bollocks...Windows is closed source...most used end-user OS.

That that BS back to the Linux-subforum....fuck open source.

Free and open source makes sense simply for the fact that if you gain value from the software, and then make it better, the right thing to do is to share your improvements with everyone else, and in turn, they can make it better. This ends up benefiting everyone involved. The right thing to do doesn't matter to everyone though. But some say the wages of sin is death.

Anyone who plays your game will end up like Microsoft or Intel: Stagnation.
How many years of Windows 10 or 14 nanometer do you need before the stench of stagnation hits you?

It was great once, but I'm starting to smell it.

Or is that a backdoor in your software? I can't see the source code, so I have no idea what nasty tricks you might be putting onto my computer.
Did you expect me to just "trust" unethical companies? Mark Zuckerberg has a word for people who do that and it rhymes with Lumbpucks.
 

Factum

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Free and open source makes sense simply for the fact that if you gain value from the software, and then make it better, the right thing to do is to share your improvements with everyone else, and in turn, they can make it better. This ends up benefiting everyone involved. The right thing to do doesn't matter to everyone though. But some say the wages of sin is death.

Anyone who plays your game will end up like Microsoft or Intel: Stagnation.
How many years of Windows 10 or 14 nanometer do you need before the stench of stagnation hits you?

It was great once, but I'm starting to smell it.

Or is that a backdoor in your software? I can't see the source code, so I have no idea what nasty tricks you might be putting onto my computer.
Did you expect me to just "trust" unethical companies? Mark Zuckerberg has a word for people who do that and it rhymes with Lumbpucks.

Bla, bla, bla...DirectX is proprietary....without gaming would not have progressed as far as it has on the PC.
You can whine and bitch (and the get lost) all you want to but the fact of the matter is that a proprietary OS (Windows) with proprietary API (DirectX) has done things open source could only dream off.

DXR is proprietary raytracing API....and copied over to Vulkan...proprietary gave us the first real time raytracing in games.

I will say it again, as a gamer:

FUCK open source!

PS. This is also not the year of linux
 

1337Goat

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Bla, bla, bla...

I will say it again, as a gamer:

FUCK open source!

PS. This is also not the year of linux

If the owner of these technologies stops innovating, then it is stagnant.
And it's only a matter of time before the owner dies. Even corporations are still mortal.

Thus the weakness to your argument is time itself.
And time does not simply stop.
 

Factum

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If the owner of these technologies stops innovating, then it is stagnant.
And it's only a matter of time before the owner dies. Even corporations are still mortal.

Thus the weakness to your argument is time itself.
And time does not simply stop.

Wake me up when open source becomes relevant in the majority of gaming...I have heard the garbage you post for the last +20 years...and still Windows with DirectX is the staple of gaming on the PC.
Open source is what...sub 2%...lol

Action talks...open source fluff is boring ZzzzzzZZZZZzzzz...
 

1337Goat

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Wake me up when open source becomes relevant in the majority of gaming...I have heard the garbage you post for the last +20 years...and still Windows with DirectX is the staple of gaming on the PC.
Open source is what...sub 2%...lol

Action talks...open source fluff is boring ZzzzzzZZZZZzzzz...

If all you care about is games and toys, then I have to admit that I'm more of a proper technological nerd.
Mere games are fun, but not exactly the reason humans have invented and developed glorious technology.

Maybe you'd understand if you knew how to program, instead of being nothing but a consumer of video games.
You might as well buy a console.
 

kirbyrj

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If the owner of these technologies stops innovating, then it is stagnant.
And it's only a matter of time before the owner dies. Even corporations are still mortal.

Thus the weakness to your argument is time itself.
And time does not simply stop.

There's no point in arguing with him. Just ignore him and move on with your life...
 

1337Goat

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There's no point in arguing with him. Just ignore him and move on with your life...

I know, but it's still fun to banter.
I normally don't really care about FOSS vs closed stuff, but he just sounds so incredibly passionate, and I can't imagine why, unless he owns some sort of business that holds patents on mysterious technology.

But I guess it's just gaming he's after.
 

Factum

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If all you care about is games and toys, then I have to admit that I'm more of a proper technological nerd.
Mere games are fun, but not exactly the reason humans have invented and developed glorious technology.

Maybe you'd understand if you knew how to program, instead of being nothing but a consumer of video games.
You might as well buy a console.
ZZZZzzzzzZzzzz...Ad Hominem does not change the fact that open source is irrelevant for gaming today (no different than the past).

What did you want to say Mr. Sub 2 %?
Hint: I work in datacenters running virtual environments...open source is not a factor there either.
 

noko

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I know, but it's still fun to banter.
I normally don't really care about FOSS vs closed stuff, but he just sounds so incredibly passionate, and I can't imagine why, unless he owns some sort of business that holds patents on mysterious technology.

But I guess it's just gaming he's after.
pssss. There are more mobile phones then PCs and over 85% use an open source OS, Android, 12% IOS which is closed source. Open Source in this case did succeed when it was combined with hardware. Each did exactly what Linux goals were, to build upon previous software in a more or less collaborative way profiting each body/business, advancing rapidly. Many folks just game on phones now days as well since much are free unless you bite for more in the game for extra levels etc. Nintendo Switch uses Nintendo Linux and hopefully Nvidia gets DLSS to that level of hardware, that would be amazing. DLSS is in it's baby infancy, AI approach and hardware supporting looks to be a good path forward for computing in general, not even scratching the surface so to speak.
 

euskalzabe

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Closed source technology means death to that technology once the creator gets bored with it.
Not at all. X86 is not open source, and I haven’t seen anyone trying to power their desktop successfully with open source cpu instructions in the past 30 years. Now that it may start switching to ARM, we’ll go from proprietary tech to the same but different.

pssss. There are more mobile phones then PCs and over 85% use an open source OS, Android, 12% IOS which is closed source.

What? Android is definitely NOT open source. AOSP is open source. That’s not the Android most people on the planet are getting on their phones. Very much closed Google software.
 

Factum

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Reality and open source have always had an issue.
Don't bother with facts the ideology is very much like Marxism and they make far to much noise compared to their marketshare.
 

Stoly

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Bla, bla, bla...DirectX is proprietary....without gaming would not have progressed as far as it has on the PC.
You can whine and bitch (and the get lost) all you want to but the fact of the matter is that a proprietary OS (Windows) with proprietary API (DirectX) has done things open source could only dream off.

DXR is proprietary raytracing API....and copied over to Vulkan...proprietary gave us the first real time raytracing in games.

I will say it again, as a gamer:

FUCK open source!

PS. This is also not the year of linux
Every year is the year of Linux :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Factum

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Every year is the year of Linux :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That meme is getting quite funny...and it started all the way back in 1998...now 22 years later...nothing has changed...linux still sits around 2%...but it's fan whine like they are +80% of the market CAP.
If Linux died today, PC gaming would not notice...Steam has Linux at 0.88%...what an amazing "untapped" market :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 

noko

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Not at all. X86 is not open source, and I haven’t seen anyone trying to power their desktop successfully with open source cpu instructions in the past 30 years. Now that it may start switching to ARM, we’ll go from proprietary tech to the same but different.



What? Android is definitely NOT open source. AOSP is open source. That’s not the Android most people on the planet are getting on their phones. Very much closed Google software.
huh??? Well maybe you know better:
Android is a mobile operating system based on a modified version of the Linux kernel and other open source software, designed primarily for touchscreen mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. Android is developed by a consortium of developers known as the Open Handset Alliance and commercially sponsored by Google. It was unveiled in 2007, with the first commercial Android device launched in September 2008.

It is free and open source software; its source code is known as Android Open Source Project (AOSP) which is primarily licensed under the Apache License. However most Android devices ship with additional proprietary software pre-installed,[10] most notably Google Mobile Services (GMS)[11] which includes core apps such as Google Chrome, the digital distribution platform Google Play and associated Google Play Services development platform. About 70 percent of Android smartphones run Google's ecosystem;[12] competing Android ecosystems and forks include Fire OS (developed by Amazon) or LineageOS. However the "Android" name and logo are trademarks of Google which impose standards to restrict "uncertified" devices outside their ecosystem to use Android branding.[13][14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

Of course the base is Open source and the manufacturers like Nvidia with the Shield add in their proprietary stuff to it, on top of AndroidTV.

Anyways what is with all this Linux crap in a thread dealing with DLSS -> Well Nvidia supports DLSS on Linux:

NVIDIA 450.57 is out for Linux with DLSS and NGX, Image Sharpening plus more
By Liam Dawe - 9 July 2020 at 2:17 pm UTC| Views: 20,970
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NVIDIA today just released a big new stable driver for Linux with 450.57. It pulls in a whole bunch of big features from the recent 450.51 Beta.

Compared with the Beta, it looks like it's mostly the same plus a few extra fixes. However, it's worth a reminder now it's stable because everyone should be able to upgrade knowing it's a supported driver version. NVIDIA 450.57 is exciting for a few reasons. One of which is the inclusion of support for NVIDIA NGX, which brings things like DLSS to their Linux drivers.

There's also now Image Sharpening support for OpenGL and Vulkan, support for Vulkan direct-to-display on DisplayPort displays which are connected via DisplayPort Multi-Stream Transport (DP-MST), various VDPAU improvements, PRIME enhancements like support for PRIME Synchronization when using displays driven by the x86-video-amdgpu driver as PRIME display offload sinks along with "Reverse PRIME" support too.
. . . . .

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2020/...x-with-dlss-an-ngx-image-sharpening-plus-more

DLSS is a better reconstruction method, which like previous ones will most likely be exceeded, superseded or at least improved. Definitely a real deal when you can use it, looks like Open Source OS's will get this special sauce as well.
 

Stoly

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If it is, then I don't see how AMD can catch up. Is up scaling resolutions the future? Where do we go from here if Nvidia can double its performance with this trick?
AMD will surely use some kind of upscaling to hit 4k/60 in consoles and PCs.
There's already DirectML and Fidelity FX, so there's that. Actually Fidelity FX looked at least as good if not better than DLSS 1.0.

But I think nvidia will have the edge performance/quality wise. DLSS2.0 is comparable to native 4K, I think it actually looks better than native 4k+TAA, specially in motion.

The list of promised DLSS games is still short and the actual games is ever shorter, but if anyone can bring support from developers is nvidia, specially with its current and future versions of DLSS.

Who knows, we may get DLSS2.0 support in Asseto Corsa after all.
 

AVATARAT

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If it is, then I don't see how AMD can catch up. Is up scaling resolutions the future? Where do we go from here if Nvidia can double its performance with this trick?

DLSS remove by AI some "things" (blurry) and in every picture where someone compare it is visible that something missing (effect, light, shadow, etc).
Yes the difference is a little and DLSS improve few visible effects and most people are exited.
But.
Normally I use in Radeon driver "Enhanced AA" and "Texture Filtering Quality: High" to improve image quality as much as possible so for me DLSS is not accsepltible and is not something that I like. And I can survived to lose few FPS because this, because I prefer better image quality than few FPS more.

But everyone is free to use DLSS if he like it.
 
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.linux still sits around 2%...but it's fan whine like they are +80% of the market CAP.
Don't you mean Wine?(badoom-tish) I would be the first to jump off the windows boat if we saw a reasonable uptick in native "pro" software compatibility as well as drivers, games, etc. Just because of the lack of consumer presence linux has in the pc market doesn't mean its not prevalent in just about every other aspect.

Back on topic, It seems that Amd atm is emphasizing a brute force approach with big navi, while nvidia is teasing the idea of using software and some processing to offload some of the gpu load to double the frame rate. Radeon has always seemed like the underdog against Nvidia, but maybe AMD will pull out a Ryzen level surprise in their Video Card department. I also hope intel enters into the market in a big way.
 

Factum

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DLSS remove by AI some "things" (blurry) and in every picture where someone compare it is visible that something missing (effect, light, shadow, etc).
Yes the difference is a little and DLSS improve few visible effects and most people are exited.
But.
Normally I use in Radeon driver "Enhanced AA" and "Texture Filtering Quality: High" to improve image quality as much as possible so for me DLSS is not accsepltible and is not something that I like. And I can survived to lose few FPS because this, because I prefer better image quality than few FPS more.

But everyone is free to use DLSS if he like it.

DLSS has about the same I.Q or better than native...for a LOT more than a few FPS:



You seem awfully ignorant about DLSS...if if you think "enhancing" TAA gives you good I.Q....the joke is on you.
 
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Factum

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Don't you mean Wine?(badoom-tish) I would be the first to jump off the windows boat if we saw a reasonable uptick in native "pro" software compatibility as well as drivers, games, etc. Just because of the lack of consumer presence linux has in the pc market doesn't mean its not prevalent in just about every other aspect.

Back on topic, It seems that Amd atm is emphasizing a brute force approach with big navi, while nvidia is teasing the idea of using software and some processing to offload some of the gpu load to double the frame rate. Radeon has always seemed like the underdog against Nvidia, but maybe AMD will pull out a Ryzen level surprise in their Video Card department. I also hope intel enters into the market in a big way.

Same result....a lot of whines from a minority in a minority...only thing they excel in is a ego bigger than Apple...like I said...I have been hearing the same empty rhetoric since ~1998.
If they havn't gotten the clue in 22 years...they never will.
 

AVATARAT

Limp Gawd
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DLSS has about the same I.Q or better than native...for a LOT more than a few FPS:



You seem awfully ignorant about DLSS...if if you think "enhancing" TAA gives you good I.Q....the joke is on you.


Man, you look at images but where someone tell you where to look, you can try to see and other particle ;)
Both companies display some effects in their own ways.
Nvidia blur some things ( leaves / needles on wood, shadow, etc ) from years and now they start to blur more things with AI.

See this:


With DLSS only text and "white elements" are visual "better" but look at shadows, hair, textures etc...
RT remove or add shadows/light from/to some objects and this is a lot stupid in some situations... Because when the game is developed someone add or not shadow because he know where must have and where do not but the RT rework it because the algoritm said it :D
Yes in some situations the objects look better.

But.
When you add quality - you have quality.
When you remove quality - it's just removed.
Sorry but there is enough videos where someone explain how nice is to make a crap on the images and how nice is that.

As I said up for me DLSS is not acceptable, if for you it is ok - enjoy it :)
 

AVATARAT

Limp Gawd
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One more thing, try to find more comparations between Radeon and Nvidia, not only Nvidia native vs Nvidia RT+DLSS ;)
 

Factum

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Man, you look at images but where someone tell you where to look, you can try to see and other particle ;)
Both companies display some effects in their own ways.
Nvidia blur some things ( leaves / needles on wood, shadow, etc ) from years and now they start to blur more things with AI.

See this:


With DLSS only text and "white elements" are visual "better" but look at shadows, hair, textures etc...
RT remove or add shadows/light from/to some objects and this is a lot stupid in some situations... Because when the game is developed someone add or not shadow because he know where must have and where do not but the RT rework it because the algoritm said it :D
Yes in some situations the objects look better.

But.
When you add quality - you have quality.
When you remove quality - it's just removed.
Sorry but there is enough videos where someone explain how nice is to make a crap on the images and how nice is that.

As I said up for me DLSS is not acceptable, if for you it is ok - enjoy it :)


The review you linked sucks...I hate these youtube n00bsters that cannot do a proper comparision video...where is:
- Native + TAA (DXR on/off)
- DLSS (DXR on/off)
it just a lamo guy doing 4 slits next to each other with NO detailed comparison analysis...again it SUCKS!
(So don't go sprouting about "Sorry but there is enough videos where someone explain how nice is to make a crap on the images and how nice is that." when you lini to crap video's explaning nothing).

Let me repeat:
If you think that "Enhanced AA" and "Texture Filtering Quality: High" will give you better I.Q. in Control (that uses TAA) the joke is on you.
 

AVATARAT

Limp Gawd
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The review you linked sucks...I hate these youtube n00bsters that cannot do a proper comparision video...where is:
- Native + TAA (DXR on/off)
- DLSS (DXR on/off)
it just a lamo guy doing 4 slits next to each other with NO detailed comparison analysis...again it SUCKS!
(So don't go sprouting about "Sorry but there is enough videos where someone explain how nice is to make a crap on the images and how nice is that." when you lini to crap video's explaning nothing).

Let me repeat:
If you think that "Enhanced AA" and "Texture Filtering Quality: High" will give you better I.Q. in Control (that uses TAA) the joke is on you.

OK, find better comparisons I am open to see more examples.

If mean only in Control - the joke is mainly on the Control engine maybe ? :)
 

AVATARAT

Limp Gawd
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You have some serious reading up to do...

Nop, you had :)
I ask to show me Radeon PC graphic vs Nvidia PC graphic comparisons. Something like 5700XT/Radeon VII vs Nvidia RTX.
And you show me Nvidia vs old PS4 :D
If you can't find or can't made - you can't compare :p
 

euskalzabe

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The joke is on you:


That 1st video posted today by DF was pretty impressive. I was amazed when they showed 4k checkerboard VS DLSS 2 (6:07) and how much sharper the latter was. Also at 11:15 when they show how DLSS 2 basically eliminates all the pixel shimmering (which is my #1 pet peeve and I'll take fuzzy TAA textures just to get rid of that pixel crawl). So DLSS2 gives you smooth frame-to-frame motion AND avoids blurring the image like 1.0 AND gives you higher FPS (because it's rendering everything at lower res). Win-win-win.

I've criticized Nvidia a lot over the past 3 years:
1) I was happy with my RX 480 before my 1060, but the mining boom got so stupid I just had to sell it (made nearly twice the money I originally paid, so I got the 1060 3gb and still came out with extra cash).
2) Pascal made a garbage improvement on $200 GPUs and then split it in a thousand categories, so you had people like me buying the 1060 3GB thinking it was the same GPU as the 6GB but with half the ram ("didn't need" bigger textures as I'm a 2560x1080p gamer), and later we realized, no it's not! Not by a long shot. My card has aged way worse than the 6GB version, and not because of the RAM, but because of the shader count. I've been bitter about it ever since.
3) Turing was overpriced as hell and barely any games had DXR so I passed. DLSS 1.0 gave you FPS but IQ was worse. There was little point in buying a 1660 over my 1060 3GB, specially if it sucked at DXR and had no DLSS. Not enough performance improvement.

I've bitched and moaned about Nvidia for 3 years. DLSS 2.0 is officially changing my mind. Unless AMD has anything to counter appropriately, it's now very likely I'll get an Ampere card. The architecture seems more and more promising, and I'm now a believer in reconstructed image - as Digital Foundry said in their post today, why waste power in rendering at native, when reconstructed can be better? In fact, though I'm a $200-250 GPU customer, this year I'll likely buy whatever the lowest model is that can do DLSS natively. Think 2060 performance, which hopefully goes down to the price bracket I'm used to (in fact, I think it has to, as the $300-350 will have to get more performant this year).

Nvidia is a shitty, shitty company, but I give my hard-earned money to the better product. DLSS 2 has become a very, very powerful factor to sway my purchase decision. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

PS: I cannot believe it's been 3 years since my last GPU purchase:

1595961672264.png


I hate the current state of the GPU market. It better pick up this fall with the new architectures. It's about time we get some real performance progress, not just on the high tier, but on all of them. Decent DXR capability at $200, I say (2060, become what you're supposed to be: a budget DXR card).
 
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polonyc2

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I'm still using a GTX 1070 so I have no real world experience with DLSS but I'm planning on upgrading to Ampere when it launches...I have a 1440p G-Sync monitor and have no plans on upgrading to a 4K gaming monitor anytime soon...is DLSS mainly for 4K resolution or is it as effective at lower resolutions like 1440p and 1080p?
 
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Auer

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I'm still using a GTX 1070 so I have no real world experience with DLSS but I'm planning on upgrading to Ampere when it launches...I have a 1440p G-Sync monitor and have no plans on upgrading to a 4K gaming monitor anytime soon...is DLSS mainly for 4K resolution or is it as effective at lower resolutions like 1440p and 1080p?
It'll work, I havent tried it personally tho as I have a 4k Display.
I believe 1080p will have very little if any benefit tho.

Decent read here: https://www.pcgamer.com/nvidia-dlss-2-performance-benchmarks-control-wolfenstein-youngblood/

polonyc2
 

Auer

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No, this is not true. DLSS 2.0 works at any resolution, in fact I was playing Control at 540p rendering and it looked okay (with great performance gains).

Nice!

I have a few 1080p monitors around, never thought about trying one out :p
 
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