Is Apple making an 'iPad Pro' with a stylus?

Aurelius

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Ah, be careful not to conflate a (relative) abundance of options with sheer popularity. iPad pens and note-taking apps certainly have a following, but I wouldn't call them mainstream.

My beef with Microsoft isn't its catering to pen users so much as its overinflation of pens' value. They're nice to have, but most people genuinely don't need or even want them. It was still funny to see Bill Gates (who's obsessed with pen computing, by the way) insist that the iPad would fail because it didn't have a pen and keyboard... only to watch as the iPad outsold several years of Windows tablet PCs in a matter of months.

I honestly think Microsoft should consider forking the Surface Pro line to include a model without a digitizer and pen input, if it saves enough money. Not that it'd suddenly lead to iPad-like popularity, but it's hard to get someone to buy your tablet when it's $799 to start... or $928 if you get it with the keyboard Microsoft wants you to have.
 

bman212121

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I'd expect to see an Ipad Pro once Apple finally decides what's it's going to do about iOS / OSX.

A pro that actually has a USB port on it, and maybe display port or some kind of output for a 2nd screen would certainly go a long ways. The main reason why you don't see a one yet is they don't have an OS to run on it. iOS won't support the desktop features and OSX doesn't have touchscreen. I wouldn't consider it a "Pro" tablet if I can't even download pictures from an SD card to it.
 

UnknownSouljer

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For me personally, the only way I'd be interested in an "iPad Pro" with a stylus is if they created a direct competitor with this: http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-displays/cintiq-companion
Quite frankly, I don't think Apple can do it, unless they either A.) worked in partnership with Wacom (generally unlikely) or B.) bought Wacom outright with all those cash reserves they have (also unlikely, as generally Apple seeks big market customers, Wacom despite being the defacto choice for artists is still a niche company).

So all that said, Apple would have to compete with 20+ years of Wacom's R&D in this area for me to even care. I guess I may not be their target, but unless pen writing on a tablet becomes the defining feature of all tablets (which I'm fairly certain it won't), I don't expect such a product to give them any real market gain.

Still, after saying that, my comment has nothing to do with whether or not such a product is coming down the line. I don't see any credible evidence to suggest they are, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see them trying to take back at least some of the space taken by the Surface 3 and the other various Android tablets.
 
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Terpfen

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I'd expect to see an Ipad Pro once Apple finally decides what's it's going to do about iOS / OSX.

What decision are you expecting? Apple will continue to publish both OSes. The Windows route of one OS for all platforms is a failure.
 

Snowdog

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iOS won't support the desktop features and OSX doesn't have touchscreen. I wouldn't consider it a "Pro" tablet if I can't even download pictures from an SD card to it.

What desktop features do you need on a tablet? Whatever exists in OSX, Apple can fairly easily add to iOS.

If there is a bigger iPad, it will run iOS.
 

babadook

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Ah, be careful not to conflate a (relative) abundance of options with sheer popularity. iPad pens and note-taking apps certainly have a following, but I wouldn't call them mainstream.
Because capacitive pens/styluses are crap. I tried a few of them. They're ridiculous. Using them is an act of frustration.

I eventually bought a Galaxy Note 8.0 because it's the only 8-inch-tablet with a real digitzer (apart from some really crappy Win8 tablets). The difference is day and night. With the Note, writing is actually fun. And yeah, it's mostly a gimmick.

Pen input will remain a niche, sure. But what are the Health app and Siri...?

If Apple wants to market an iPad Pro, they'll pretty much have to bring a digitizer. Nobody wants a 12-inch-tablet that just does touch.

I honestly think Microsoft should consider forking the Surface Pro line to include a model without a digitizer and pen input, if it saves enough money.
That would be the Surface RT.

The selling point of the Pro is that it's running real Windows. Once you're in desktop mode, you NEED the pen.
Explaining that just isn't as sexy as seeing people annote PDFs in a cool, never-happening-in-the-real-world way.
 

heatlesssun

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I eventually bought a Galaxy Note 8.0 because it's the only 8-inch-tablet with a real digitzer (apart from some really crappy Win8 tablets). The difference is day and night. With the Note, writing is actually fun. And yeah, it's mostly a gimmick.

I've had the Windows Asus VivoTab Note 8 legacy Wacom based digitizer for about a year and it's worked well for note taking for me. Toshiba just launched last month an 8" and 10" tablets using the new electrostatic Wacom digitizer. I got the 10" version and it's become my go to note taker. For a first gen pen tech it's very nice for note taking.

It's a gimmick if you don't use it. If you use it for art or free form note taking and handwriting of symbols, i.e. math or science, then it's far from a gimmick.


If Apple wants to market an iPad Pro, they'll pretty much have to bring a digitizer. Nobody wants a 12-inch-tablet that just does touch.

If one thinks the Surface Pro 3 is expensive I'm guessing that a 12.9" iPad won't be cheap. While pens are niche overall but not at high end prices. The majority of Windows tablets and hybrids in the price range of the Surface Pro 3 are pen enabled.
 

Snowdog

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The selling point of the Pro is that it's running real Windows. Once you're in desktop mode, you NEED the pen.

If you NEED the pen that sounds more like an OS/UI problem than a reason a bigger iPad should have a pen.
 

kierwest

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I wish I kept several articles but they have hinted at a larger, laptop-replacement tablet. However, I heard from a friend in the tech industry that Apple is having a hard time deciding what features are necessary to give it. They don't want to lose customers over bulky, "unstylish" products, but offer something actually worth buying. It's a catch 22 situation.
 

bman212121

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What desktop features do you need on a tablet? Whatever exists in OSX, Apple can fairly easily add to iOS.

If there is a bigger iPad, it will run iOS.

The most basic things are simply USB and display output options. With a Pro windows tablet or a mac laptop running OSX I can easily plug in several USB devices that are important to me for work. Need to configure an AP? You'll need a network adapter, want to work on a switch or console into a device, that requires either USB or a serial to USB adapter. Want to test a projector, tv, you'll need some type of display output. Need Java or flash support so you can log into your applications website, can't do that either. I'm guessing it's not possible to BT a mouse to a tablet either if you wanted to use it with RDP to access your servers. If someone calls you on a remote call and wants you to troubleshoot an issue with Group policy, or a browser issue in Firefox, IE, or Chrome and you don't have access to any of those to test with you're not going to be able to be productive. On OSX a lot of people run a VM with windows for this type of stuff, not possible on iOS.

For a Pro tablet, it should be able to get work done without needing your laptop within an arms length. I've seen people make attempts to take the tablet with them, only to go back and grab their laptop because it wasn't up to the task. Something as simple as I need someone to be able to webex into my machine to take control so they can troubleshoot an issue remotely. Not possible on an ipad, very possible with a windows or mac device.


@kierwest: The biggest problem is once you get into the size where a MBA is around the same as an ipad pro, yet it's lacking a touchpad, keyboard, usb ports, display port, thunderbolt, can't run any of your productivity software since it has some type of dependency, and still costs about the same it's pretty hard to convince someone why they would find it useful. If you can already do what you need with a normal ipad that is great, but if you require a laptop because of something that it does a normal ipad cannot, you'd expect the Pro model to be able to.
 

heatlesssun

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What decision are you expecting? Apple will continue to publish both OSes. The Windows route of one OS for all platforms is a failure.

But is this because the concept of a hybrid just isn't workable or because Windows 8.x was poorly executed. I'd say more so the latter. Windows 10 isn’t backing down from the hybrid concept and considering the yearlong free upgrade offer along with a good offering of new x86 tech in Cherry Trail, Broadwell and Skylake , Windows 10’s adoption rate among consumers is likely to be on the high side unless Windows 10 is plagued with technical and UI issues, which is possible.

We shall know before too long how this goes one way or the other.
 

Aurelius

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Pen input will remain a niche, sure. But what are the Health app and Siri...?

If Apple wants to market an iPad Pro, they'll pretty much have to bring a digitizer. Nobody wants a 12-inch-tablet that just does touch.

Health and Siri also don't require any truly expensive hardware; just cheap companion chips at most.

Also, I'd be careful to say that "nobody" wants a 12-inch tablet without a digitizer. Given the poor performance of Android and Windows tablets in that category, not many people want a 12-inch tablet with a digitizer. Remember, even if Microsoft's $1.1 billion in Surface revenue this quarter translated to sales of the cheapest Pro 3 model, that'd amount to 1.4 million units... and that's the most successful pen-equipped tablet of recent memory. It's hard to say if the demand is really there for an Apple 12-inch tablet, but there is that uncomfortable possibility that people just don't like large tablets that aren't iPads.



That would be the Surface RT.

Not really, and that's been a problem for Microsoft since the Surface line began. Your choice is either to get a slow, limited device (arguably, an iPad does a better job even without multi-window support) or pay a lot for a system with a pen that you don't want. Besides, it's pretty clear that ARM-based Windows tablets are dead -- they won't really be an option with Windows 10, and even Microsoft downplays the Surface 2. Unless there's a renaissance with a Surface 3/4 that uses a Core M, it'd make more sense to me to consolidate around the Surface Pro and introduce a cheaper model without pen input. $699 is much more palpable when selling to a crowd that would otherwise settle for whatever crappy HP laptop Best Buy was selling that week.



The selling point of the Pro is that it's running real Windows. Once you're in desktop mode, you NEED the pen.

Explaining that just isn't as sexy as seeing people annotate PDFs in a cool, never-happening-in-the-real-world way.

What about the trackpad (admittedly, on an optional peripheral)? I'm pretty sure that's what Microsoft wants you to use in desktop mode when you can, because there are very few concessions to touch in that side of the interface. Don't forget, Windows 10's Continuum feature can automatically switch you to desktop mode when you dock a 2-in-1 device like the Surface... if that isn't a sign of what Microsoft wants you to do, I don't know what is.
 

heatlesssun

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What about the trackpad (admittedly, on an optional peripheral)? I'm pretty sure that's what Microsoft wants you to use in desktop mode when you can, because there are very few concessions to touch in that side of the interface. Don't forget, Windows 10's Continuum feature can automatically switch you to desktop mode when you dock a 2-in-1 device like the Surface... if that isn't a sign of what Microsoft wants you to do, I don't know what is.

From what I'm seeming in Windows 10 and the desktop using touch on my Surface Pro 3, there are quite a few things being done to make the desktop more touch friendly. Automatic keyboard popup (this actually kind of worked in Windows 7 on the desktop but changed in 8), popup menus enlarging when activated via touch, consistent window behavior between desktop and modern apps that works like 8 l split screen, etc.
 

babadook

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Health and Siri also don't require any truly expensive hardware; just cheap companion chips at most.
What do you think it costs to run Siri server-side?

even if Microsoft's $1.1 billion in Surface revenue this quarter translated to sales of the cheapest Pro 3 model, that'd amount to 1.4 million units...
The retail price is not what ends up in Microsoft's revenue.

and that's the most successful pen-equipped tablet of recent memory.
Your argument uses the same logic that demonstrated so wonderfully how people didn't want big screen cell phones.

I'd say the Surface 3 Pro sales are actually pretty high. It's a compromised device. Too heavy, hot, expensive and loud for a tablet. Kickstand, keyboard and trackpad not ideal for a laptop.
The only people it should really appeal to are the ones who would be regularly taking two device with them and are willing to compromise for convenience.

It's hard to say if the demand is really there for an Apple 12-inch tablet, but there is that uncomfortable possibility that people just don't like large tablets that aren't iPads.
iPad sales saw 4 consecutive quarters of year-over-year decline. Maybe everybody is holding out for a version with just a bigger screen. But I'd guess Apple needs additional selling points.

Unless there's a renaissance with a Surface 3/4 that uses a Core M, it'd make more sense to me to consolidate around the Surface Pro and introduce a cheaper model without pen input.
What good would that do? Without a pen you can't use desktop mode (save for the mediocre trackpad).

At 700$ it would still be too expensive.


What about the trackpad (admittedly, on an optional peripheral)? I'm pretty sure that's what Microsoft wants you to use in desktop mode when you can, because there are very few concessions to touch in that side of the interface.
Yes. Hence the pen...!

Don't forget, Windows 10's Continuum feature can automatically switch you to desktop mode when you dock a 2-in-1 device like the Surface... if that isn't a sign of what Microsoft wants you to do, I don't know what is.
Of course it switches to the desktop once docked. What's that got to do with anything?
 

heatlesssun

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I'd say the Surface 3 Pro sales are actually pretty high. It's a compromised device. Too heavy, hot, expensive and loud for a tablet. Kickstand, keyboard and trackpad not ideal for a laptop.
The only people it should really appeal to are the ones who would be regularly taking two device with them and are willing to compromise for convenience.

There's compromise with anything. I agree that if one is only looking for a laptop or a tablet that the Surface Pro 3 probably isn't the right device for them. However even with the Type Cover, the SP3 is only 2.5 lbs. That's a lot of functionality in a device that size and even though it may not be the best laptop or tablet and the price is on the high side, it's still better than most laptops and tablets out there at least some ways.

What good would that do? Without a pen you can't use desktop mode (save for the mediocre trackpad).

There's a lot you can do with the desktop using only touch. Of course the desktop isn't touch optimized and many applications don't work well but doing many basic tasks like copying files with File Explorer, using Office (2013 desktop is quite touch friendly), web browsing with desktop web browsers, these kinds of things actually aren't bad with touch and don't require the pen.

As for the trackpad, it's small but I find it to be very nice for a PC trackpad overall, scrolling and zooming in most apps is very smooth and accurate, though not a lot in the way of gesture support in 8.1. One thing that helps is to on enhanced pointer precession.
 
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Aurelius

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What do you think it costs to run Siri server-side?

A fair amount, I'm pretty sure, but it also isn't going to cost nearly as much as it does to add a digitizer and pen to every device. And besides, the point of Siri isn't simply a specialized feature for one device... it's to improve accessibility on a whole range of devices, ranging from the Apple Watch to iPods, iPhones and iPads.



The retail price is not what ends up in Microsoft's revenue.

True. However, it's also reasonable to say that many Surface Pro 3s sold cost more than the base model, so you can't simply yank the profit margin out of it and hike the numbers. I chose the $799 model because it presented a buffer that allowed for other factors. For that matter, this likely includes accessory revenue from Type Covers and other add-ons. The long and short of it: the Surface business is definitely growing at Microsoft, but you can't really paint it as a runaway success that will have Apple rueing the day it decided against a large iPad with a stylus.



iPad sales saw 4 consecutive quarters of year-over-year decline. Maybe everybody is holding out for a version with just a bigger screen. But I'd guess Apple needs additional selling points.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it needs a pen. I see it as a combination of factors: few game-changing "have to have this" updates, slower upgrade cycles (it's not dictated by payment plans like phones) and larger smartphones that reduce the desire for a tablet. Dramatic performance improvements, storage increases, that sort of thing.

Besides, things get fuzzy when you try to look at other companies, because they often refuse to provide official sales figures, let alone provide insight into why customers bought a given model. How many people actually bought a Galaxy Note 10.1 versus similar-size Tab Pro or Tab S models?



What good would that do? Without a pen you can't use desktop mode (save for the mediocre trackpad).

*snip*

Of course it switches to the desktop once docked. What's that got to do with anything?

I think you need to shake the notion that the pen has to stick around for desktop mode. The desktop docking mode is a signal of Microsoft's intent -- it thinks that you should be using a keyboard and trackpad/mouse when you're in desktop mode.

You know what would be smarter than including the pen to make up for basic Windows UI failings? Ditching the pen and digitizer on at least some models, and rolling the savings into making the Type Cover standard. That way, you wouldn't have that semi-hidden cost needed to use the Surface the way it was designed, and you'd have a superior interface for desktop mode at the same time.
 

heatlesssun

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I think you need to shake the notion that the pen has to stick around for desktop mode. The desktop docking mode is a signal of Microsoft's intent -- it thinks that you should be using a keyboard and trackpad/mouse when you're in desktop mode.

If the Type Cover is attached you're not going to use the pen as a mouse pointer. It might be useful for quickly annotating or jotting something down on the screen while the cover is attached. The track pad on the Type Cover for the Surface Pro 3 is more than adequate for mouse pointing.

Where one might use the pen as a mouse pointer for desktop apps is while the keyboard cover isn't attached and one is using the SP3 as a tablet. But even then many common things work pretty well simply using touch. Virtually all of the time I'm using the pen it's to create ink.

You know what would be smarter than including the pen to make up for basic Windows UI failings? Ditching the pen and digitizer on at least some models, and rolling the savings into making the Type Cover standard. That way, you wouldn't have that semi-hidden cost needed to use the Surface the way it was designed, and you'd have a superior interface for desktop mode at the same time.

I think you're overstating the cost of pen tech. The old Wacom digitizers use a separate pen digitizer layer that does add some cost. But the kind of digitizer that's in the Surface Pro 3 and many other Windows tablets these days use an electrostatic pen and there is no separate pen digitizer layer from the capacitive touch layer, it's all in one and the cost difference is minimal compared to a capacitive only digitizer. The cost is all in the pen. The Surface Pro 3 pen sells for $50, but I'm guessing there a huge markup on it. The hardware cost of the pen in the Surface Pro 3 is probably under $50 including the pen.
 

heatlesssun

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So Microsoft is buying the developer of the Surface Pro 3's pen tech: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/us-ntrig-m-a-microsoft-idUSKBN0LG14020150212

Here's a couple of articles from Joanna Stern, one on pen tech and an interview with Panos Panay:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/handwriting-isnt-deadsmart-pens-and-styluses-are-saving-it-1423594704
http://blogs.wsj.com/personal-techn...not-a-stylus-microsofts-plan-to-save-the-pen/

The Panay interview ends with Stern asking him about the rumored Apple pen. In any case, with this acquisition rumors of an Apple pen for the iPad will become more intense until we actually see what Apple does if anything.
 

Snowdog

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It would be great if Apple just release such a products.

Apple makes great products because they have the discipline to not just throw out everything and see what sticks.

They leave the gimmicks to others.
 

heatlesssun

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Apple makes great products because they have the discipline to not just throw out everything and see what sticks.

They leave the gimmicks to others.

Pens on tablets certainly aren't a gimmick. They've been around much longer than the iPad and even the iPad has capacitive styli and apps that emulate the functionality found on digital pen enabled devices.
 

Aurelius

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Pens on tablets certainly aren't a gimmick. They've been around much longer than the iPad and even the iPad has capacitive styli and apps that emulate the functionality found on digital pen enabled devices.

They're not gimmicks, but it would be fair to say that they're niche for many people. Arguably, what has helped Apple achieve success (at least, in the Return-of-Jobs / Cook era) was its ability to figure out what most people actually want, and to tailor its experience around that. That's why an extra-large iPad may not have pen input at all; Apple is less interested in the minority that absolutely insists on pen input than the majority that would probably try the pen once and never use it again.
 

heatlesssun

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They're not gimmicks, but it would be fair to say that they're niche for many people. Arguably, what has helped Apple achieve success (at least, in the Return-of-Jobs / Cook era) was its ability to figure out what most people actually want, and to tailor its experience around that. That's why an extra-large iPad may not have pen input at all; Apple is less interested in the minority that absolutely insists on pen input than the majority that would probably try the pen once and never use it again.


It's not a zero sum game. Niche or not, a digital pen adds to a tablet's ability to do productive things that can it be done with touch only or even a keyboard. And doesn't take away from anything else. And digital pen technology is better and cheaper than ever as electrostatic digitizers add very little to the cost of the device itself, the cost is mostly in the pen which could be sold separately, much like the capacitive styli that many iPad users buy today.

Plus at the high-end price range, which certainly a 12"+ iPad would be, you're looking at a different market than those buying sub $100 mini-tablets. That's a niche market by definition that's going to want more features and capabilities in a tablet than at the low end. If you can't bring something to the table for productive use like a pen then what is there? A keyboard? Onscreen multitasking? That's great but that's just making a tablet into a laptop and iOS isn't going to beat Windows at this any time soon I think. A pen adds productive uses to a tablet AS a tablet.
 

Snowdog

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It's not a zero sum game.

It's about focus:
post-7180-Focus-means-saying-no-to-the-h-qlhQ.jpeg
 
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heatlesssun

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It's about focus:

It's also about what people do. Writing and drawing with a pen on a tablet is a very natural thing to do and people do use the iPad for these purposes. And I doubt Apple would say not to use an iPad for these purposes because they aren't focused on them.
 

wonderfield

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And digital pens aren't, as Jobs would put it, "good ideas". They're just an input option wih fairly limited overall value for the majority of users.

Compare the real-world utility of something like Touch ID or Apple Pay to the real-world utility of digital inking and they aren't even in the same league.
 

heatlesssun

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Compare the real-world utility of something like Touch ID or Apple Pay to the real-world utility of digital inking and they aren't even in the same league.

These are great features but not so much in an expensive 12"+ screen tablet.
 

Aurelius

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It's not a zero sum game. Niche or not, a digital pen adds to a tablet's ability to do productive things that can it be done with touch only or even a keyboard. And doesn't take away from anything else. And digital pen technology is better and cheaper than ever as electrostatic digitizers add very little to the cost of the device itself, the cost is mostly in the pen which could be sold separately, much like the capacitive styli that many iPad users buy today.

Plus at the high-end price range, which certainly a 12"+ iPad would be, you're looking at a different market than those buying sub $100 mini-tablets. That's a niche market by definition that's going to want more features and capabilities in a tablet than at the low end. If you can't bring something to the table for productive use like a pen then what is there? A keyboard? Onscreen multitasking? That's great but that's just making a tablet into a laptop and iOS isn't going to beat Windows at this any time soon I think. A pen adds productive uses to a tablet AS a tablet.

Oh, I'm definitely aware it isn't zero sum... it's just a question of whether Apple thinks the market is large enough to justify the expenses and design elements needed for a pen, and whether there would be any unintended side effects (such as splitting the developer base).

And on the "it'd just be a laptop" argument... well, isn't that what most people buying large tablets (9 inches and larger) are doing anyway? Heck, Microsoft's whole shtick for the Surface Pro 3 is "the tablet that can replace your laptop," and its signature feature is designed to turn it into a laptop. And let's face it... while Windows will likely remain better at multitasking than an iPad if multi-window shows up, Windows 8 has spooked a lot of people away from Microsoft. There's a lot of people who are willing to accept the simplicity of Android and iOS simply because they're more familiar.
 

heatlesssun

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Heck, Microsoft's whole shtick for the Surface Pro 3 is "the tablet that can replace your laptop," and its signature feature is designed to turn it into a laptop.

The Surface Pro 3 is a productivity tablet with a focus on that concept. The Type Cover is the signature feature that makes the SP3 a solid productivity device that essentially makes it a laptop. But the pen is what makes it a good productivity device as a tablet.
 

TheSoldier

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Personally, I would just like to see iOS unbundle from the iPad. Create a whole new OS just for the iPad and I'm willing to bet that sales will pick up quickly. I have no need for an iPhone 6+ and iPad Mini. They are very similar.
 

heatlesssun

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What does cost have to do with the utility of those features?

Has Apple implemented Touch ID and Apple Pay on a 12"+ device yet? Touch ID could be useful on such a device, there are laptops and tablets this size and larger that have fingerprint scanners. NFC payments and large devices would have less utility though.

Also utility isn't the same as popularity. Some seem to be making this case for some reason.
 

heatlesssun

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neither is a pen.

Here's the thing. Right now there is no analog to this is the Apple world and maybe they Apple won't create a larger iPad and if they do maybe it won't have support for a digital pen. But most existing large screen tablets and tablet hybrids currently in the market do support digital pens. Writing on such a large area is a much more natural thing do with such a device than NFC payments.

It's interesting to see some Apple folks get so weird about pens. As though many iPad users don't already use capacitive styli to exactly the things that digital pens do better on other devices.
 

Snowdog

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But most existing large screen tablets and tablet hybrids currently in the market do support digital pens.
Evidence? I see tons of convertible Windows tablets, and it looks to me like most models do NOT have pens. Or are you just going to claim the most sold convertible is the Surface Pro?

Writing on such a large area is a much more natural thing do with such a device than NFC payments.

So? Who suggested NFC payments would be important for big tablets? No one.

What is even more natural thing for big tablets, is to attach a keyboard and use them like a laptop.

It's interesting to see some Apple folks get so weird about pens.

I am don't have any Apple stuff, but my Samsung Tablet doesn't have a pen and I have never felt the slightest need for one. I don't draw and don't want to take handwritten notes on a screen.
 

heatlesssun

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Evidence? I see tons of convertible Windows tablets, and it looks to me like most models do NOT have pens. Or are you just going to claim the most sold convertible is the Surface Pro?

Let me clarify. I said large (over 10.5") tablet and tablet hybrids meaning something that can exist as a pure tablet without an attached keyboard. And I should have also emphasized price. Above $600 dollars normally.

So? Who suggested NFC payments would be important for big tablets? No one.

Fair enough. I have no idea why wonderfield bought up Apple Pay in this discussion. I certainly never questioned the usefulness of things like Touch ID or Apple Pay. I do not think those things matter significantly with the type of device in question here.

What is even more natural thing for big tablets, is to attach a keyboard and use them like a laptop.

While a physical keyboard may be more useful for more people, when you attach a physical keyboard to a tablet it's no longer a tablet. The device cannot be used as a pure tablet would with a keyboard attached, at least not as easily.

I am don't have any Apple stuff, but my Samsung Tablet doesn't have a pen and I have never felt the slightest need for one. I don't draw and don't want to take handwritten notes on a screen.

Fair enough. But it is ironic that Samsung probably sells more pen enabled devices than anyone right now.
 
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