Inline Chillers?

Zoson

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Wondering if someone has one of these running in a modern system, and if so, how much of a temperature drop do you see in your coolant with the element on?
img_1608-300x225.jpg

img_1779-300x224.jpg


The pics are from someone's aquarium project, in which he used the chillers to keep his aquarium temperature regulated.

I was thinking about getting a 437Qmax pelt specced for 24v and just running it at 12v.
 

Zoson

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sweet jebus thats huge! how much cooling on a chip do you need?

Running it at 12v cuts the Qmax almost in half. Peltiers operate at higher efficiency when they're not loaded up to max. So i'd get maybe slightly over 200W of movement out of the 437W peltier. That is, if the hot side would be cooled enough by a heatsink as shown.

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to go BELOW ambient, but simply closer to ambient than my coolant is now (~32C idle, ~40C load in a 27C ambient).
 

BrainEater

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Hehe.

I know you said you don't wan't below ambient , but here's what a professional inline chiller looks like :

Glycol chillers

That unit does ~340 watts continuous heat load to - 6 C.

They have others.....

:D
 

Zoson

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Hehe.

I know you said you don't wan't below ambient , but here's what a professional inline chiller looks like :

Glycol chillers

That unit does ~340 watts continuous heat load to - 6 C.

They have others.....

:D

See, the problem with that is, it's $780. I have an MCW462+ sitting here from an old build, as well as an Apogee. All I'd need to invest in is the $50 peltier, and some insulation to get what I first posted up and running.
 

BrainEater

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Yea cost sux I know.

It's a 'phase-change' chiller though.

Much more efficient than peltiers....the cost saving in electricity alone would be worth it....I've got a couple 226 w pelts here sitting on my bench , they are brutal on juice and cooling....(themselves)...

Just some food for thought.

:D
 

thaltek

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honestly i just don't see the point in using a petler inside of a case.....
when all its gonna do is suck up a bunch of energy for a limited amount of forced thermal convection......


*prepares to get flamed*
 

Zoson

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So I had a good discussion about this with a user on another forum. He clarified in plain terms why this won't work.
Take a TEC designed for ~50W of cooling. Because TEC's generate about twice the heat load on the hot side, that's ~100W to dissipate on the hot side. A good heatsink(like the mcx462 shown) with a reasonably quiet fan will have a c/W of about .3C. Which means that at an ambient of 20C, the 'cold' side of the TEC would still be at 50C, and no cooling would actually happen.

So the moral of the story is that the element cooling the hot side would have to be significantly bigger than what we can practically use or the fan required would have to be a jet engine. The end result would be that another radiator would make more sense, anyway.
 

thaltek

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So I had a good discussion about this with a user on another forum. He clarified in plain terms why this won't work.
Take a TEC designed for ~50W of cooling. Because TEC's generate about twice the heat load on the hot side, that's ~100W to dissipate on the hot side. A good heatsink(like the mcx462 shown) with a reasonably quiet fan will have a c/W of about .3C. Which means that at an ambient of 20C, the 'cold' side of the TEC would still be at 50C, and no cooling would actually happen.

So the moral of the story is that the element cooling the hot side would have to be significantly bigger than what we can practically use or the fan required would have to be a jet engine. The end result would be that another radiator would make more sense, anyway.
:D this validates my thoughts on the matter quite nicely......
 

Zoson

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:D this validates my thoughts on the matter quite nicely......

So the guy posted back, and noted that it would be possible to gain cooling this way if you used a significantly oversized peltier, and undervolted it severely. He suggested that I was on the money with the 437W Qmax peltier that frozenCPU has, and said that if I ran it at 5v, I would probably be able to cool the hot side efficiently enough to get the cold side down below 30C.

He initially thought I would be trying this without a fan, too. Which I'm of course not.

I thought it was strange that people were saying this wouldn't work... Seeing as the MCX462+ was able to get 125W Athlon's and 135W P4's sub zero with a 226W pelt and a not quite deafening fan.
 

thaltek

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So the guy posted back, and noted that it would be possible to gain cooling this way if you used a significantly oversized peltier, and undervolted it severely. He suggested that I was on the money with the 437W Qmax peltier that frozenCPU has, and said that if I ran it at 5v, I would probably be able to cool the hot side efficiently enough to get the cold side down below 30C.

He initially thought I would be trying this without a fan, too. Which I'm of course not.

I thought it was strange that people were saying this wouldn't work... Seeing as the MCX462+ was able to get 125W Athlon's and 135W P4's sub zero with a 226W pelt and a not quite deafening fan.

sorry bout that my i need to sleep every once and a while and what not.....

what i was getting at is the disadvantage of pulling so much more wattage through the system just to feed the petlier..........
 

Zoson

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sorry bout that my i need to sleep every once and a while and what not.....

what i was getting at is the disadvantage of pulling so much more wattage through the system just to feed the petlier..........

Why is that a disadvantage, at all? Use power to create cooling... Seems like a worthwhile cost to me.
 

BrainEater

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Yep.

It usually takes power to achieve cooling unless you run a purely passive rig.

---

I'm not sure about the 437 watt units , never played with em.....I have several 226's tho : I'm not sure if you've seen this pic or not....

That's an 'open loop' watercooled 226 watt peltier setup to cool a beercan.It'll freeze the bottom of a beer in under 2 mins. :D

---

The best method I can think of at the moment to achieve what you want would be to cool the pelt 'hot side' semi passively.....

Got a good local scrapyard around ? one that recycles copper ?or aluminum ?...bolt a 437 watt pelt to a multi sq/ft area of copper plate or aluminum extrusion....it's something I've been wanting to try , I think it would work.....

:D
 

Zoson

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Yep.

It usually takes power to achieve cooling unless you run a purely passive rig.

---

I'm not sure about the 437 watt units , never played with em.....I have several 226's tho : I'm not sure if you've seen this pic or not....

That's an 'open loop' watercooled 226 watt peltier setup to cool a beercan.It'll freeze the bottom of a beer in under 2 mins. :D

---

The best method I can think of at the moment to achieve what you want would be to cool the pelt 'hot side' semi passively.....

Got a good local scrapyard around ? one that recycles copper ?or aluminum ?...bolt a 437 watt pelt to a multi sq/ft area of copper plate or aluminum extrusion....it's something I've been wanting to try , I think it would work.....

:D
That's a pretty awesome picture... By multi-sq ft do you mean, total surface area? Or just sheer size/volume of material? I have the exact parts in the pictures I posted in the OP(I literally just happened to have them sitting around from old builds). I just need to buy a peltier at some point.

The question is how big... Do I get a 226 16v and run it at 12v, or do I get a 437 16v and run it at 7v or 5v?

The heatsink in the picture has a few sq ft in surface area, if I remember correctly. Adding a fan isn't an issue, I have a bunch of silent 80mm fans sitting around from older builds, also.
 

thaltek

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Why is that a disadvantage, at all? Use power to create cooling... Seems like a worthwhile cost to me.

Qout = Qcpu + Qpetlier

so if your processor is 125W heat dissapation and you are using a petlier at lets say 12V @ 2A then your petlier is running about 24W but the electrical conversion isn't perfect so lets say 18W .... that means that (125W + 18W = 143W ) your heatsink has to be able to handle 143W of energy heat from the system.....
basically you need a heatsink that can not only disapate the processors heat but the additional heat generated by the petler..... which dosn't really make sense unless you are trying to go below ambient......... really just save money on the petlier by buying a bigger heatsink instead..... or go water cooled..... unless you enjoy paying electric bills.....
 

Zoson

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Qout = Qcpu + Qpetlier

so if your processor is 125W heat dissapation and you are using a petlier at lets say 12V @ 2A then your petlier is running about 24W but the electrical conversion isn't perfect so lets say 18W .... that means that (125W + 18W = 143W ) your heatsink has to be able to handle 143W of energy heat from the system.....
basically you need a heatsink that can not only disapate the processors heat but the additional heat generated by the petler..... which dosn't really make sense unless you are trying to go below ambient......... really just save money on the petlier by buying a bigger heatsink instead..... or go water cooled..... unless you enjoy paying electric bills.....

Your comprehension of the situation is bad. So your post is way off base and doesn't contribute to the discussion.
I already have a watercooler.
My radiators are dissipating enough heat to stabilize my system.

I just want to drop my coolant temp.

As in, my rads are dissipating the heat of the cpu already. So no, I don't need the pelt to be able to dissipate the entire heat capacity.

and it makes perfect sense to stay AT ambient, rather than below it for maintenance purposes. This isn't to REPLACE my cooler, this is to SUPPLEMENT it.

Oh and there's such a thing as utilities included in rent. Gotta take advantage.

So the short story is the loop would be:
CPU -> pump -> rad -> COLD side of pelt -> back to CPU. With the hot side of the pelt being cooled by the heatsink, and having no connection to the cold loop. E.G. Impossible to go below ambient, but you don't need the pelt to dissipate the entire heat load.
 
Last edited:

thaltek

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Your comprehension of the situation is bad. So your post is way off base and doesn't contribute to the discussion.
I already have a watercooler.
My radiators are dissipating enough heat to stabilize my system.

I just want to drop my coolant temp.

As in, my rads are dissipating the heat of the cpu already. So no, I don't need the pelt to be able to dissipate the entire heat capacity.

and it makes perfect sense to stay AT ambient, rather than below it for maintenance purposes. This isn't to REPLACE my cooler, this is to SUPPLEMENT it.

Oh and there's such a thing as utilities included in rent. Gotta take advantage.

So the short story is the loop would be:
CPU -> pump -> rad -> COLD side of pelt -> back to CPU. With the hot side of the pelt being cooled by the heatsink, and having no connection to the cold loop. E.G. Impossible to go below ambient, but you don't need the pelt to dissipate the entire heat load.
ok that changes a few things.... if the petlier is being attached to the radiator of the wc loop then that will actually make the loop more efficient at taking heat out of the case....

sorry bout the mix up....
 

BrainEater

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--

Yea I meant total area......big heatsink.It can be a regular old heatsink or a four foot square piece of 1/4 inch copper.....the bottom line is the better you cool the 'hot side' the better the whole system will work.

To answer your original question , It's pretty difficult to try and estimate what kind of temperature drop you'll get.

If you've got everything but a peltier , best way to know is to buy a pelt and try it.

My advice would be the 245 watt unit running at 12 volts.Much easier to find 12v PSU's than 24 volt models.

Don't bother trying to undervolt the pelt...just deal with the heat properly.I can't stress this enough.The heatsink for a single 245 watt peltier should be able to dissapate at least 600 watts ..

If you have or can find a broken old stereo reciever/amp ,they often have nice big heatsinks in em , suitable for peltier cooling.

:D
 

BrainEater

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Here.Like this :

pelt3.jpg


Thats an extruded aluminum heatsink from a dead 400watt car amp....226 watt pelt , MCW6002.......

I'll let yah know how it works.Thanks for giving me something to do today !

:p
 

BrainEater

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Ok.

I put this together in a couple hours .

Inline 226 W chiller :

pelt4.jpg


The heatsink for the 'hotside' is about 450 sq inches.It *should* run passively.

I don't actually watercool my own rigs , but the guy who gave me the dead car amp does.I bet he'll help me test.

:D
 

flak-spammer

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Should...Ouch I'd hate to see that run passive. I had a passive heatsink from an amp with a 89Qmax pelt on it running at 6v and it didn't work well so yeah I wouldn't have high hopes. Anyways hey again Zoson :).
 

cyclone3d

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I doubt that AMP heatsink is going to work very well.

A good heatpipe cooler is going to cool it much better.

Or, if oytu wanted to go for a really really good cooling setup to cool the peltier, set it up to be cooler by a rad setup... seperate loop from your regular rad loop.

I am guessing you already have the cooling loop setup like this, but just in case:

CPU - rad - peltier - CPU
 

BrainEater

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You very well might be right , but I didn't have a heatpipe cooler just lying around....the car amp was the best piece of heatsink material I had , short of bolting the pelt to the 6 foot x10" piece of half inch steel I happen to have......

I built that just as an experiment , I don't even watercool my rigs.I'll have to try it on my friends system , and yes , it'll go after the rad.

We'll see what happens !

:D
 

BrainEater

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Srry......it's a fail......

Hotside cooling is insufficient.

no load , the hotside went to 70C...........coldside was 20 ish.....not worth it with this setup......I have an idea tho....

:D
 

thaltek

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Srry......it's a fail......

Hotside cooling is insufficient.

no load , the hotside went to 70C...........coldside was 20 ish.....not worth it with this setup......I have an idea tho....

:D

it woun't involve mercury would it? :p
 

Zoson

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Srry......it's a fail......

Hotside cooling is insufficient.

no load , the hotside went to 70C...........coldside was 20 ish.....not worth it with this setup......I have an idea tho....

:D

Bolt on a cpu heatsink with a fan on it!
 

flak-spammer

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Nah TECs usually overload heatpipe heatsinks unless it's like the TRUE or Megahalems. I tried it with an SI-128 SE and it was pretty much fail. The base got to like 80C and the actual heatpipes couldn't handle the load.
 

BrainEater

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Does'nt surprise me at all.CPU heatsinks only need to dissapate 150 watts or so.....

I'm going to try and pick up a Thermalright TRUE copper 120 ultra-e...If that can't do it ....

:D
 

Zoson

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Wouldn't it be better, then, to have a solid heatsink like in my OP? Swiftech/Alpha style?
 

BrainEater

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I'm not sure.

The car amp setup fully dissapated the load of 226 watts , just not to the point of being an effective cooler.

I want that true copper anyways , so we'll try it.

I also have a 72"x10"x1/2" piece of mild steel.Gonna try that too.

We will see what happens.I've been meaning to play around with this anyways so....

:D
 

Rossi~

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Nah TECs usually overload heatpipe heatsinks unless it's like the TRUE or Megahalems. I tried it with an SI-128 SE and it was pretty much fail. The base got to like 80C and the actual heatpipes couldn't handle the load.

We're on about bolting performance CPU heatsinks onto the big amp heatsnik :) not straight on the TEC
 

BrainEater

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We're on about bolting performance CPU heatsinks onto the big amp heatsnik :) not straight on the TEC

We are ?

I was'nt. :p

I've actually removed the tec/block assembly from the car amp body.If I need an intermediate hestsink between the cpu cooler and the TEC, I'll use something else.The car amp body is a terrible shape for bolting anything onto......it's all curves....

:D
 

BrainEater

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Ok.

I have a TRUE Copper enroute.I have a 114 CFM panaflo 120mm for it, getting the second tomorrow......

I have made a base for the coolant block/clamp assembly.Everything but the bolts is pure copper.With the design I am using , I can add heatsinks as required.

I will make it work.

Pics when I assemble it.

---------

So here's the deal tho......; the cost of all this ( I had most of it already, but if you wanted to make one ...) is easily $500...That would buy a really nice radiator...

Professional phase/liquid chillers start at $800 ish....

TEC=Not worth it.*

I still intend to make this setup work though , I've always wanted to "see what it takes"


:D

edit * : Unless you get nice copper for free !
 

BrainEater

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Ok....

Srry for the wait.

Here's the test rig I'm werkin on :

trueinline.jpg


-----

I've gotta lap/mate all the surfaces and run plumbing/wiring etc.....

We're gonna find out about this whole 'inline chiller' business !

:D
 

Zoson

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Looking really good there Brain. The box is a nice touch. Looking forward to your findings!
 

BrainEater

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Thx !

I have a result :

It seems it might work.

true8.jpg


No Load coldblock temp : -1C

It frosts.

It's certainly dissapating the 226 watt pelt load with no issue....

Time to test on a WC rig......(after I do the insulation).

:D
 
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