HWLabs Nemesis radiators are garbage.

thesmokingman said:
Ah no, you want the best delta you can get. You'll see that delta temp does not equal what temp your cpu/gpu will be running at. Fundamentally watercooling cannot remove all the heat, which is why we strive for the best delta possible. 10c delta is good for one block, throw in a second and you will see that delta double, etc. as well as core temps jumping. When talking of temps it is in context of full load, idle temps don't matter because at it will be so good as to not matter in the conversation.
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Not everyone watercools for absolute best performance. For many, quieter and cooler than air with a bit of overclocking is all that is necessary.
 
Zoson said:
The old GTX was 20FPI also. The new is 16. The GTS was 32, and now is 16. The SR series was 9, and remains 9. The point of all of this is the fin design did not change, and the overall cooling capacity has been reduced vs the last generation. The product line has collapsed and is no longer about the maximum cooling in smallest space with high static pressure fans.

Again, yes it was my mistake for not looking more closely. This is a PSA that they are not what they used to be.

If you look at the new koolance that was mentioned above, it's a super dense splitter fin design like the GTS used to be.
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Tsumi said:
We have been discussing the GTS radiator the majority of the thread. When did you mention in the GTX in the context of the discussion? Also, nowhere did I say the GTX Gen 2 has 16 FPI. It seems like you are the one with communication and comprehension issues, as well as some sort of complex.
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Wrong again. Seems to be crossing the line of intentional trolling. You can very clearly see that I stated the GTX was 20 and was reduced to 16, as well as the GTS being 32 and being reduced to 16. You literally have no argument. Anyone who did real performance testing found that the GTS radiators were so close in performance to the GTX that it wasn't worth using the additional space for a GTX when you could get push/pull in the same space on a GTS. You're literally completely wrong.

Erasmus354 said:
You need to get over your hangup about FPI being all that meaningful. I have already shown testing here that proves that it really isn't. Other factors such as the style of fins, the number and thickness of tubing runs, the thickness of the radiator, and the depth of the plenum play just as much of a role into how well a radiator performs under different fan speeds and conditions. You can't simply cite an FPI number as an example of what situations a radiator is designed for.
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Then you remembered that all of these radiators have been using the .25 micron splitter fin that HWLabs has a patent on, and only recently licensed out to Koolance.

Napoleon said:
Reviving this thread: I'm looking at the HWlabs Nemesis 280 GTS X-Flow Radiator. Does anyone have actual experience with this radiator? Does only the OP have a HWlabs radiator?

I don't care how the Nemesis GTwhatver comepares across generations, I'm just after performance numbers. I think the conversation about fin density is moot and reviews , if this is legit, like the following should clear up the performance at different fan speeds: HWLabs Nemesis 280 GTS X-Flow Radiator Review

OP - Were you able to return/replace the leaky radiators? Obviously that is an intolerable mode of failue

Thank you for the help. In case you're wondering, I'm hoping to use 2x 280mm GTX X-flow with variable speed fans for a CPU/GPU loop with 1/2 ID tubing (converting existing rad setup)
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HWLabs would not replace them.
 
Zoson said:
Wrong again. Seems to be crossing the line of intentional trolling. You can very clearly see that I stated the GTX was 20 and was reduced to 16, as well as the GTS being 32 and being reduced to 16. You literally have no argument. Anyone who did real performance testing found that the GTS radiators were so close in performance to the GTX that it wasn't worth using the additional space for a GTX when you could get push/pull in the same space on a GTS. You're literally completely wrong.


Then you remembered that all of these radiators have been using the .25 micron splitter fin that HWLabs has a patent on, and only recently licensed out to Koolance.


HWLabs would not replace them.
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You mentioned 3 radiators in a row but did not define which one you considered the best. How is anyone supposed to know what is going through your head if you don't communicate clearly? You are the one with issues, and if you are going to accuse me of trolling, then I don't need to deal with such childish immature behavior.
 
Tsumi said:
You mentioned 3 radiators in a row but did not define which one you considered the best. How is anyone supposed to know what is going through your head if you don't communicate clearly? You are the one with issues, and if you are going to accuse me of trolling, then I don't need to deal with such childish immature behavior.
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I'm confused as heck now, I was going to buy 2x of these http://www.performance-pcs.com/blac...s-flow-low-profile-radiator-black-carbon.html

Now I'm unsure about HELabs and potential leaking
 
Erasmus354 said:
HWLabs has been doing this for a long time. Their QC is as good as anyone else, I wouldnt worry about leaks with HWLabs anymore than anyone else.
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Looks like I'm order some then, funny I made my current radiators out of heater cores years ago and soldered the barbs and fittings on. I guess it's time to embrace the specialize hardware, I guess the only things to worry about are cleaning it out and screwing in the barbs too tight
 
Sorry to necro a thread that wasn't posted in for over a year here.

I actually put my order in for one of the HWLabs Nemesis 360 Ultra Stealth U-flow rads. I have used the Black Ice rads from way back long before they started using names line 'nemesis'. They have been in the radiator biz for a good 10 years and if there is something I trust my expensive hardware to these guys.

And I am looking at them now for their build quality & performance. I did a quick scan through this thread and notice that while there was a lot of complaints about fewer fpi & such compared to earlier. Has anyone done any kind of performance comparison between the nemesis gts and the earlier generation? To me having a higher fin density means I need more static pressure to push air through them. I found I had to actually use Delta and Panaflow NMB fans to push air thru the old Back Ice Extreme rads I used back then simply because they had an insane amount of SP and the rads responded best with them at lower speeds. I only had to use PWM (before 4-pin style ones came out) controllers on them because of the amount of amperage they needed -- no motherboard fan controllers for those!! Anywho back on my blurb--

My current situation can't use GTX-type (Black Ice Extreme) thickness so I am opting for the stealth because the only site to actually put some performance numbers for them rated them at the top of the 30mm thick 360mm rads. This is why I am asking... Instead of actually complaining about fin pitch and size changes, have these rads actually gone down in performance? Because to me it seems you would get the same or better performance from the newer generation rads using lower SP fans than you would with the older ones. Lower SP fans are quieter and yes, I am one of those that prefer his system fans not be screaming when I stress my system.

Feel free to chime in with any performance comparos between the Black Ice generations.
 
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cyberguyz said:
Sorry to necro a thread that wasn't posted in for over a year here.

I actually put my order in for one of the HWLabs Nemesis 360 Ultra Stealth U-flow rads. I have used the Black Ice rads from way back long before they started using names line 'nemesis'. They have been doing been in the radiator for a very long time and if there is something I trust my expensive hardware to it is these guys.

And I am looking at them now for their build quality & performance. I did a quick scan through this thread and notice that while there was a lot of complaints about fewer fpi & such compared to earlier. Has anyone done any kind of performance comparison between the nemesis gts and the earlier generation? To me having a higher fin density means I need more static pressure to push air through them. I found I had to actually use Delta and Panaflow NMB fans to push air thru the old Back Ice Extreme rads I used back then simply because they had an insane amount of SP and the rads responded best with them at lower speeds. I only had to use PWM (before 4-pin style ones came out) controllers on them because of the amount of amperage they needed -- no motherboard fan controllers for those!! Anywho back on my blurb--

My current situation can't use GTX-type (Black Ice Extreme) thickness so I am olpting for the stealth because the opnly site to actually put some performance numbers for them rated them at the top of the 30mm thick 360mm rads. This is why I am asking... Instead of actually complaining about fin pitch and size changes, have these rads actually gone down in performance? Because to me it seems you would get the same or better performance from the newer generation rads using lower SP fans than you would with the older ones. Lower SP fans are quieter and yes, I am one of those that prefer his system fans not be screaming when I stress my system.

Feel free to chime in with any performance comparos between the Black Ice generations.
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I have not done a performance comparison, but I had 2x Black Ice Nemesis 280GTS® XFLOW Ultra Stealth Cross-Flow Low Profile Radiator - Black Carbon, and couldn't have been happier about their quality. I had them in a push-only setup cooling an X58 Xeon at 1.35V and fans were never above 1333RPM, load around 60C. Just my $0.02, I'd buy them again (if I didn't move to a laptop-only setup :) )
 
Good to hear. I went to the U-flow ones myself. I know they have a fair bit of restriction, but my theories are that if you slow down the water flow as it passes through a radiator, the air going thru the fins have more time to transfer heat from the fins. The review done on https://www.xtremerigs.net/2015/02/11/hardwarelabs-nemesis-360-gts-radiator-review/ show that even though it is one of the most restrictive rads, it seems to perform around the top of all those of a similar thickness. And the price wasn't bad for it as well.
 
Tsumi said:
Not everyone watercools for absolute best performance. For many, quieter and cooler than air with a bit of overclocking is all that is necessary.
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That's me. I put an OCd 7700K and a TitanXp in a Fractal Nano S, just wanted to get away from that Titan blower and CPU heat sink. Used a Black Ice Nemesis GTS 280 and a GTS 240 in that little case and it actually worked really well. Pretty quiet - way quieter than the Xp on air - and it's a stout little box. Push on the 280, pull on the 240 (it was tight getting that fan/rad combo to clear the DRAM, fans had to go under that rad), both flowing outside in with an exhaust vent fan on the top rear of the case.

I built it right around the Xp launch, so maybe April/May of 2017. No leaks so far, quietest rig I have, 7700K/TitanXp is a decent combo and temps are very manageable.
 
cyberguyz said:
Good to hear. I went to the U-flow ones myself. I know they have a fair bit of restriction, but my theories are that if you slow down the water flow as it passes through a radiator, the air going thru the fins have more time to transfer heat from the fins. The review done on https://www.xtremerigs.net/2015/02/11/hardwarelabs-nemesis-360-gts-radiator-review/ show that even though it is one of the most restrictive rads, it seems to perform around the top of all those of a similar thickness. And the price wasn't bad for it as well.
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Your theory on water flow and heat transfer would be correct except for one caveat: the water is being recirculated within the system. Whatever heat comes into the system has to go out of the system. When your flow is too low, the initial (hottest part) of the radiator would be doing most of the work while the latter part of the radiator will be doing almost nothing, as heat transfer rates drop as the temperature differential decreases. At a higher flow rate, the temperature is more evenly spread throughout the radiator, which maximizes heat transfer. The average temperature of the loop will remain the same, but the deviation from the average (i.e. difference between temperature at inlet and outlet) will be lower, which will keep your CPU more evenly cooled and keep it at a lower temperature.
 
Tsumi said:
Your theory on water flow and heat transfer would be correct except for one caveat: the water is being recirculated within the system. Whatever heat comes into the system has to go out of the system. When your flow is too low, the initial (hottest part) of the radiator would be doing most of the work while the latter part of the radiator will be doing almost nothing, as heat transfer rates drop as the temperature differential decreases. At a higher flow rate, the temperature is more evenly spread throughout the radiator, which maximizes heat transfer. The average temperature of the loop will remain the same, but the deviation from the average (i.e. difference between temperature at inlet and outlet) will be lower, which will keep your CPU more evenly cooled and keep it at a lower temperature.
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Thanks for your comment.

The u-flow rads (most of them out there except for cross flow ones) have the intake going along one side of the rad with the other side used by a second pass toward the output port. I actually gave this some thought about 10 years ago when I was using my BIX 240mm rad. Back then the buzzwords were max head and max flow so everyone was mad about 1/2" tygon hoses & such. The HWLabs rads were pretty much all around 20-30 fpi and needed some burly fans. I used a pair of Panaflow NMB fans with mine. They got loud... There were no 'stealth' rads. HWLabs being the first to make specialized PC cooling radiators was pretty much the only game in town if you were not rocking auto heater cores. I had actually experimented with higher flow rate vs slower and found the lower flow rate was actually giving me better results than rushing the liquid around my loop. Liquid was spending more time in my rad and the constant flow of air was cooling it closer to ambient.

I have seen most of your arguments against using this rad. In some cases I can agree with you - but it all depends on a person's needs whether it is a fit or not. For me it has always been about getting the best cooling, that will fit in the space I have available while at the same time keeping the noise to an agreeable level. I have room for a single-thickness core rad and from the quantitative data I have seen so far, these seem to be sitting at the top of the heap.
 
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