How far behind would a TRUE copper be in the current era?

Sojuuk

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I have a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme Copper that I bought in 2007 I think and I want to reuse it due to its rarity but I have to make sure it is not woefully behind the technology curve now. No one has compared it to modern coolers as far as I can find, all reviews that used it are from pre-2010 I think.
 

tom_ozahoski

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They say it supports any AM3 processor. They went over 200 watts so it might not be terrible if used on a modern AMD platform. Also it has to be better than any Intel stock cooler.
 

Sojuuk

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I should have said my plan is a 5950x and some Thermaltake Quad Ring 120mm RGB fans to cool it. Might not be ideal for overclocking, I haven't overclocked since the Gulftown days anyways, but I just want to be sure it stays cool.
 
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Throw a pair of good fans on them and I don’t see why it couldn’t keep up with modern 120mm towers. Or really it’d probably slightly outperform them since it’s all copper.
 
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bigddybn

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Heat is heat. If it worked well then it'll do the same now. Looks like a link was posted above to get the mount for free.
 

Sojuuk

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hititnquitit

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I should have said my plan is a 5950x and some Thermaltake Quad Ring 120mm RGB fans to cool it. Might not be ideal for overclocking, I haven't overclocked since the Gulftown days anyways, but I just want to be sure it stays cool.
Im sure you already know this having had it for so long but thought id throw it out there just in case. Check your base for flatness if you haven't yet. If i remember correctly they were built convex to match the cpus of that era. It may be a candidate for a lap job.
 

evhvis

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Should probably offer performance similar to a noctua nh-u12s so still a good cooler. It's not like there have been massive gains in air cooler size vs effectiveness when it comes to heatsinks. Most of the gains are from size and better fans.
 

doyll

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Ultra 120 Extreme Copper is very good cooler! Heatpipe life is many more years than cooler's age so with correct mount (which you have) all you need is fan and you should be good to go.

Please let us know how it does! A few pics would be nice too. ;)
 

cpufrost

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The number and size (thickness) of the heatpipes ultimately determines capacity. I'd imagine wicking material may be more efficient today than it was 15 years ago. Of course this matters most on position which most definitely does affect capacity and ultimately loaded temps. I still have a Tuniq tower from 2005. It has a HUGE amount of fins but with just three skinny pipes. It was adequate to cool my o/c and ov Q6600 only when the pipes were vertical (motherboard horizontal). In a case, even wide open with a box fan blowing across it, the CPU would error out reaching 98C in Prime95. Three pipes just wasn't cutting it and the reduced capacity with angle change just pushed things over the edge.

The best tower cooler of the time (2010) was the Silver Arrow. HUGE pipes and lots of surface area. Like the large Noctuas, it often did not fit in many cases as well. Just about that time AIOs were gaining in popularity...
 

doyll

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Thermalright has just released a new Ultra 120 Extreme. Cooler comes with 2 TL-B12 Extreme 2150 rpm fans.
"Thermalright U120EX Rev.4 Black"
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesal...y&SearchText=Thermalright+U120EX+REV.4+BLACK+

To me the biggest improvement is base on Rev. 4 is offset forward of finpack 7mm so front of 25mm thick fan is only 48mm from center CPU, thus fitting behind RAM modules on most motherboards.

Here is dimensional drawing:
1636994068760.png
 

doyll

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Indeed! Lots of new fans are using GT design. Think I still have some GTs. If I can find them I'll test them in new test station so we can we can see how they compare with to new fans.
 

grumperfish

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I'm actually using a TRUE (non-copper) on my 6700 with a gentle typhoon fan. I considered using that on the 9900K but I put it under the HR-02 instead so I could run it with an extremely low-speed fan. Both of these coolers are like 15 years old and still work fine, although I'm not sure I would trust a 12-series i7 on the HR-02. Will likely replace that cooler with something modern the next time I upgrade.
 

doyll

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I'm actually using a TRUE (non-copper) on my 6700 with a gentle typhoon fan. I considered using that on the 9900K but I put it under the HR-02 instead so I could run it with an extremely low-speed fan. Both of these coolers are like 15 years old and still work fine, although I'm not sure I would trust a 12-series i7 on the HR-02. Will likely replace that cooler with something modern the next time I upgrade.
You can go with a new cooler if you like, but honestly I have never heard of cooler heatpipes loosing functional ability unless defective or damaged.

If you do decide to get a new cooler, Thermalright has some nice compact hi-performance coolers. One of the best is Frost Commander 140. It is a beast with 5x 8mm heatpipes in twin tower design measuring 140x121x158mm. With crossbat thumbscrew installed center fan increses height to about 162mm. I removed thumbsrew on mine so fan sets flush with top of finpack so 158mm tall.

Obviously new Ultra 120 eXtreme Rev.4 w/6x 6mm heatpipes is, well, extreme cooling ability in small 132x64x157mm (WxDxH) size. It's only 132x88x157mm with front fan and 132x114x158mm with 2x hi-performance TL-B12E 3150rpm extreme fans.

Another is Venemous Plus with 6x 6mm heatpipes in 127x60x158mm (WxDxH) size. It's only 127x87x158mm with fan.

Next are single tower coolers with 5x 6mm heatpipes like TA120 EX Mini 124x45x135mm (WxDxH) and 124x71x135mm w/ fan, Assassin King 120 Mini 5x 6mm heatpipes in 120x46x135mm (WxDxH) and 120x71x135mm w/ fan.

Thermalright also have a couple very good low profile coolers like AXP-90, AXP-100 and AXP-200 and of course lots of other big single and twin tower coolers.

Thermalright is now selling on Amazon.com
"Thermalright Direct" is seller name.
Had some very good deals until week ago, but hear there will be Black Friday sales. If you need a good cooler Black Friday sales on Amazon is worth checking out.
 

doyll

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or 4.19Lbs in the USA measurement
Not quite 4.19Lbs. It's actually 4.188783 pounds. :rolleyes:

But any way we want to weight it up, with fan it's well over 2 kilo / 4.4 lbs.

Still, I know of no systems that were damaged as result of using a heavy cooler.
 

grumperfish

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You can go with a new cooler if you like, but honestly I have never heard of cooler heatpipes loosing functional ability unless defective or damaged.
Good info here. I knew that TR was selling products through Nans Gaming Gear but I didn't realize they had Amazon direct sales.

It isn't so much that the original HR-02 cooler is defective, just that it was designed for a specific heatload, beyond which faster or more powerful fans stop having much of an effect (unless I go with an insanely loud Delta fan), and in the future I'll likely need to upgrade to work around those limits. It still works perfectly fine and quiet but when the CPU is maxed out it gets warmer than I'd like as a result.

Edit: I did have a large cooler damage a board once, but that was from not removing it when shipping it via UPS. Absolutely my fault. In normal use I've never seen a heavy tower cooler cause issues, especially since most modern boards are going to have thick multilayer PCBs and all high end air coolers will have strong custom mounting brackets to distribute the weight of the cooler.
 
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doyll

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Good info here. I knew that TR was selling products through Nans Gaming Gear but I didn't realize they had Amazon direct sales.

It isn't so much that the original HR-02 cooler is defective, just that it was designed for a specific heatload, beyond which faster or more powerful fans stop having much of an effect (unless I go with an insanely loud Delta fan), and in the future I'll likely need to upgrade to work around those limits. It still works perfectly fine and quiet but when the CPU is maxed out it gets warmer than I'd like as a result.

Edit: I did have a large cooler damage a board once, but that was from not removing it when shipping it via UPS. Absolutely my fault. In normal use I've never seen a heavy tower cooler cause issues, especially since most modern boards are going to have thick multilayer PCBs and all high end air coolers will have strong custom mounting brackets to distribute the weight of the cooler.
HR-02 evolved into Macho and ARO-M14 line of coolers with only minor changes and different wrapping. Cooler design /technology really hasn't changed much if at all. ARO-M14 has flat base for newer AMD and crossbar cast into top of base, but it's same 6x 6mm heatpipes in same basic finpack. Heatpipe hasn't changed in many years .. at least 15-20, and aluminum fins and copper base are still the same. Fans have changed a little, but it's more how they look than actual performance. We are seeing more of the curved impeller design like used on tried and true Gentle Typhoon, and of course most fans are now PWM instead of variable voltage .. but really only advantage PWM give is no heat being generated when fans run at lower speed (voltage). Actually PWM control does give motors more torque / power at low speeds which is advantages in things like drill motors, but fan impellers don't use much motor torque.

Don't fall for the "coolers are not designed for specific heat load" garbage. It's just advertising hype. A cooler rated 300w cools 30 watt better (w/ less airflow and noise) than a cooler rated 30w. Actually cooler wattage ratings are mostly advertising as well. A 6mm heatpipe can transfer a maximum of about 30 watts TDP. 8mm pipe is rated about 45w. But that is optimal orientation (heat source / vapor chamber at lowest point of gravity with condenser at highest point of gravity so vaper moves toward ends where it condenses into wick and moves back to base.

You say cooler is maxed out, but is it really the cooler being maxed or is it something else? Could be case airflow is not supplying cooler with air within a few degrees of room ambinet, or TIM seat might not be as good as it should be. Most common problem is air temp entering cooler being warmed up 5c, 10c, even 15c when gaming because case isn't flowing enough air to meet needs of coolers. This mean air enter cooler can be 35-40c instead of 23-25c, and for every degree warmer air is entering cooler that component will be same degrees hotter. Optimizing case airflow not only lowers componet temps but also means fans don't spin as fast meaning system runs quieter too.

Indeed, there are times motherboards have been damaged with heavy coolers installed, but it's not just cooler weight. That said, I have seen some really cheap thin mobos with cheap coolers (w/ poor mounts that pulled on motherboard instead of through mobo mount applying pressure from back of CPU socket) warp and damage them.

Indeed, quality coolers use through mobo mounts that apply pressure from under CPU socket to cooler base with no load on motherboard. I've seen some mounts that remain loose on motherboard untill crossbar is tightened on cooler base. ;)

Sorry, for the rambling reply. :unsure:
 

grumperfish

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Heck it could be just the 9900K heating up to the surface of the sun with all threads active. Already tried re-pasting it. I tried adding a AVX CPU speed drop of a couple 100mhz, but it turns out tons of apps use occasional AVX instructions so that was borderline useless unless I always want the CPU running at the reduced speeds.

Generally works OK as long as I bump up fan speeds whenever I need to encode something. Alot of these older coolers weren't exactly flat too so maybe I should try lapping it. Either way it's generally extremely quiet, it's just the 90C per-core temps I get while really hammering it that cause my eyes to pop. Interesting to know about the 30W per heatpipe values - that kind of tracks to what I'm seeing when going above ~140W on the CPU.

I still use a Sunbeam Rheobus from like 10 years ago for fan control instead of the one that came with the case.
 

doyll

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I have a mate who pushes systems to max. Favorite coolers were Le Grand Macho RT, TRUESpirit 140 Power. Recently got Frost Commander 140 and really likes it. FC140 has 5x 8mm heatpipes in compact twin towers measuring 140x121x160 mm w/o fans (WxDxH) .. that's 152x147x160mm w/ fans. Base is offset away from PCIe sockets 7mm so 69mm center CPU toward GPU, and with 120mm front fan flush with top of cooler it will clear 41mm tall RAM. I've got black one to try on my 3600 instead of ARO-M14O it now has. Need to change out 3x T30 front intakes in Evolv mATX case to a pair of TL-C14X front intakes and test them first. Once I know how 2x TL-C14X as front intakes compare to 3x T30 in case now and 2x PH-F140MP they replaced, I'll put Frost Commander 140 Black in and see how it does. Should be interesting.
 
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doyll

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Probably test a few other coolers at same time. Like Silver Soul and Ultra Extreme Rev. 4.
 

doyll

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Closest I got to all copper was handling Ultra 120 Extreme Copper. I never got to test one but people I know who did test both aluminum finned and copper finned versions for little to no difference in performance. Test results were all within 1-2c of each other with copper sometimes better while other times aluminum version was better .. test results were same within +/- 1.5c margin or error.

New Frost Commander 140 w/ 5x 8mm heatpipes is looking real good. Mate's testign of FC140 vs Le Grand Macho RT (previous best cooler) has FC140 7c better! While that is extreme and I suspect some of difference is in how cooler bases mate to IHS, after reseating cooler with new TIM several times results were same 7c improvement. I'll be testing mine soon. Don't have LGMRT so can't run it against FC140, but will test it against several other top coolers.
 

freeagentt

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That's a lot closer than I got! The closest I came was seeing one on the internet :D
 

cpufrost

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There were other solid copper heatsinks too. Remember the Kanie Hedgehog and the Millennium Glaciator(Socket A) and SuperMicro made a bunch of solid copper heatsinks for 1U servers. I have a few of those in the parts pile!
 

kamikazi

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The best tower cooler of the time (2010) was the Silver Arrow. HUGE pipes and lots of surface area. Like the large Noctuas, it often did not fit in many cases as well. Just about that time AIOs were gaining in popularity...

Those fans look like Gentle Typhoons! :cool:
I still use a Sunbeam Rheobus from like 10 years ago for fan control instead of the one that came with the case.
I have all 3 of the things mentioned above in my server. I got the AM4 mount from Thermalright (just had to pay shipping) for my Silver Arrow and it's cooling my 3900X. I'm still using the stock TY140 fans. One was replaced under warranty years ago. The Silver Arrow used to cool my 2700k sandy bridge OC'd to 4.5, silently. The new server is running Blue Iris with 9 cameras attached at all times. I have 1850 RPM Gentle Typhoons for case fans controlled by a 6 channel Sunbeam reobus. I now hate the super bright blue LEDs built into the knobs. It was awesome 10 years ago though.
 
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Closest I got to all copper was handling Ultra 120 Extreme Copper. I never got to test one but people I know who did test both aluminum finned and copper finned versions for little to no difference in performance. Test results were all within 1-2c of each other with copper sometimes better while other times aluminum version was better .. test results were same within +/- 1.5c margin or error.

New Frost Commander 140 w/ 5x 8mm heatpipes is looking real good. Mate's testign of FC140 vs Le Grand Macho RT (previous best cooler) has FC140 7c better! While that is extreme and I suspect some of difference is in how cooler bases mate to IHS, after reseating cooler with new TIM several times results were same 7c improvement. I'll be testing mine soon. Don't have LGMRT so can't run it against FC140, but will test it against several other top coolers.

The FC140 does look like a winner. It reminds me of the PH-TC14PE.
 

doyll

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I have all 3 of the things mentioned above in my server. I got the AM4 mount from Thermalright (just had to pay shipping) for my Silver Arrow and it's cooling my 3900X. I'm still using the stock TY140 fans. One was replaced under warranty years ago. The Silver Arrow used to cool my 2700k sandy bridge OC'd to 4.5, silently. The new server is running Blue Iris with 9 cameras attached at all times. I have 1850 RPM Gentle Typhoons for case fans controlled by a 6 channel Sunbeam reobus. I now hate the super bright blue LEDs built into the knobs. It was awesome 10 years ago though.
Love seeing old combined with new. Few years before Silver Arrow Thermalright started with IFX-14 which evolved into Cogage Arrow (in their Cogage brand) and Silver Arrow in Thermalright brand. I have both IFX-14 and Cogage Arrows. Used IFX-14 until about a year ago. Will use it again sometime but not sure when. GTs are stil one of the best fans out there. Too bad someone didn't keep their sales going better when Scythe and Nidec Servo split up.
The FC140 does look like a winner. It reminds me of the PH-TC14PE.
Both have 5x 8mm heatpipes in twin towers, but other things are quite different.
PH-TC14PE had 2-piece fins soldered to heatpipes (latest gen are single piece), FC140 has single piece fins soldered to pipes​
PH-TC14PE base is center while FC140 has base offset 7mm from PCIe giving it better PCIe clearance.​
PH-TC14PE is 140x136x163mm (WxDxH) w/o fans w/ 2x 140mm fans and FC140 is 140x 121x160mm making it a smaller overall size.​
Early PH-TC14PE fans were pretty lame but latest gen are good, still not as good as FC140 fans.​
I ran TY-143s on my TC14. Would have used TY-140s but cooler was red and I had a pair of TY-143s from Silver Arrow SB-E I built that owner didn't like red/orange colors so switched them for PH-F140HPs.
 

kamikazi

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Love seeing old combined with new. Few years before Silver Arrow Thermalright started with IFX-14 which evolved into Cogage Arrow (in their Cogage brand) and Silver Arrow in Thermalright brand. I have both IFX-14 and Cogage Arrows. Used IFX-14 until about a year ago. Will use it again sometime but not sure when. GTs are stil one of the best fans out there. Too bad someone didn't keep their sales going better when Scythe and Nidec Servo split up.

Both have 5x 8mm heatpipes in twin towers, but other things are quite different.
PH-TC14PE had 2-piece fins soldered to heatpipes (latest gen are single piece), FC140 has single piece fins soldered to pipes​
PH-TC14PE base is center while FC140 has base offset 7mm from PCIe giving it better PCIe clearance.​
PH-TC14PE is 140x136x163mm (WxDxH) w/o fans w/ 2x 140mm fans and FC140 is 140x 121x160mm making it a smaller overall size.​
Early PH-TC14PE fans were pretty lame but latest gen are good, still not as good as FC140 fans.​
I ran TY-143s on my TC14. Would have used TY-140s but cooler was red and I had a pair of TY-143s from Silver Arrow SB-E I built that owner didn't like red/orange colors so switched them for PH-F140HPs.
Funny you mention Cogage. I still have my Cogage True Spirit and it's now the cooler for my 2700k. If I remember correctly, it earned high very high marks on HardOCP. I thought the fan that shipped with it was weak, so I have two Akasa Vipers in push/pull. They are ugly yellow, but they are in an enclosed box.
 

doyll

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Funny you mention Cogage. I still have my Cogage True Spirit and it's now the cooler for my 2700k. If I remember correctly, it earned high very high marks on HardOCP. I thought the fan that shipped with it was weak, so I have two Akasa Vipers in push/pull. They are ugly yellow, but they are in an enclosed box.
I used a couple of Vipers in old Xaser build. While not great they were okay.
 

Sojuuk

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Well I have finally gotten around to starting the build and yes I do realize it is a bad idea to build when the new stuff is right around the corner buuuuuuuuuuuut I don't care. Couldn't find any mounts for fans for this thing anymore but that's nothing a few zip ties can't fix!
20220331_180308.jpg
 
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