Has Intel Abandoned the HEDT Market?

LukeTbk

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Doesn't smell right to me. It sounds like they're conflating workstation Xeon-Ws with HEDT. Wouldn't be surprised at all if at least most that comes to market, but I doubt it will be in a consumer-focused, reasonably priced (vs. enterprise), OCable platform.
Will see but yes the article is calling the Lower range Xeon-Ws line HEDT.

The up to 24 cores only, 58% of the lane, 42% of the cache, half the memory bandwith and 12.5% of the capacity of the high-end line is promising that it would not play in the crazy price range, in between Threadripper and Threadripper pro maybe ?
 

lopoetve

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Will see but yes the article is calling the Lower range Xeon-Ws line HEDT.

The up to 24 cores only, 58% of the lane, 42% of the cache, half the memory bandwith and 12.5% of the capacity of the high-end line is promising that it would not play in the crazy price range, in between Threadripper and Threadripper pro maybe ?
Thing is - that matches TR non-pro in terms of specs (Give or take a nudge on core count and cache, not looking all that up). 64 PCIE lanes is the same as the rest of the HEDT lines have been - and just what I'm looking for, at least.

The top-end ones match Xeon-W / TRPro. So... I count this a win.
 

LukeTbk

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Timing and price are obviously really important here, but

24 maximum core at high frequency, 45 MB of L3, equivalent of 130 pci Gen 4 lane bandwith (similar has the current threadripper pro 128, if PCI 5.0 hardware and configuration match up), 4-Channel DDR5 Memory (I imagine would end up to similar bandwith to a 8 channel ddr 4 current threadripper pro), do seem a really nice target for an HEDT in 2022 / early 2023.

Again, price being important obviously, if the price of the platform end up being closer to pro than regular threadripper....
 

drutman

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Looks like Intel is resurrecting the HEDT, my Intel ex employee tells me that when server chips have cache defects they get marketed as HEDT.
 

German Muscle

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Timing and price are obviously really important here, but

24 maximum core at high frequency, 45 MB of L3, equivalent of 130 pci Gen 4 lane bandwith (similar has the current threadripper pro 128, if PCI 5.0 hardware and configuration match up), 4-Channel DDR5 Memory (I imagine would end up to similar bandwith to a 8 channel ddr 4 current threadripper pro), do seem a really nice target for an HEDT in 2022 / early 2023.

Again, price being important obviously, if the price of the platform end up being closer to pro than regular threadripper....
yeah, i saw something about TR 5995WX being 7K. Not sure the truth of it but if it is then wow they are getting cocky with prices.

Looks like Intel is resurrecting the HEDT, my Intel ex employee tells me that when server chips have cache defects they get marketed as HEDT.
I dont think thats how it works. X299 was Xeon W 2100 and 2200 Series cpus with unlocked multis. You can even Compare them to their Xeon Bronze and Silver counterparts and the cache is the same. X99 and X79 are the same way.
 

Grebuloner

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AMD cans non-pro TR

With Threadripper Pro (and its double-jacked up price) now AMD's only HEDT entry, it looks like Intel no longer has the competition to push it to do anything reasonable for us. Maybe the Mainstream level parts will have a down to earth price to them. Or maybe Intel will giggle and go back to Skylake-X's stupid-high premium.

Edit: AMD link
 
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mjoeTW

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I'm most excited about the lowest-core count fishhawk falls, hopefully 10 or 12 cores, for a mixed workload of gaming and high-performance math compute. Of all the CPUs I've used, the 10-core broadwell was my favorite, whereas at 18-cores, the low clock speeds made the system feel sluggish.
 

Grebuloner

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whereas at 18-cores, the low clock speeds made the system feel sluggish.
That's why we want OCable HEDT. Stock clockspeeds are just where it comes from the factory, crank up the cooling power and all the cores :cool:.
 

KazeoHin

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AMD cans non-pro TR

With Threadripper Pro (and its double-jacked up price) now AMD's only HEDT entry, it looks like Intel no longer has the competition to push it to do anything reasonable for us. Maybe the Mainstream level parts will have a down to earth price to them. Or maybe Intel will giggle and go back to Skylake-X's stupid-high premium.

Edit: AMD link
1656643403142.png


This is the big news here. "Pro" does not mean locked.


This made my heart do the warm'n'fuzzy
 

Grebuloner

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View attachment 488055

This is the big news here. "Pro" does not mean locked.


This made my heart do the warm'n'fuzzy
Is it? The total platform cost will be twice as high and push the enthusiast crowd that would have bought at TR3000 cost (or slightly higher) to be priced out to the point that the "select MBs" market will probably be...2: One from Asus, one from Gigabyte, not unlike Intel's 3175X. Is the relative gain over TR3000 really worth that?
 

Grebuloner

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Read that, too, and gained some hope. I read somewhere else that the 2400 series is also coming with features in line with the HEDT we're used to (4 channel mem, lower max core count, higher clocks) and OC options. Now, if we can get these at reasonable prices (including MB...I've seen that SuperMicro listing), I could definitely be down.
 

German Muscle

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I fully expect it to be expensive. What im more happy about is 112 lanes. It is still early and still plenty of time for intel to ruin that.

Im just curious if this is going to be skylake x expensive or cascade lake x expensive.
 

cjcox

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I think many didn't consider Xeon parts as HEDT. For we've had workstation Xeon parts for a bit I think. And there are Epyc workstations out there.
 

German Muscle

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I think many didn't consider Xeon parts as HEDT. For we've had workstation Xeon parts for a bit I think. And there are Epyc workstations out there.
HEDT has been Xeon parts under a different name for a while. The separating factor wasnt the branding, it was overclocking.
 

Grebuloner

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HEDT had the distinction of having all the fun of server silicon and capabilities wrapped in boards with consumer level features, a lower price, and overclockability. I don't think this new standard is quite there because it will cost a buttload more and, despite AMD's claims on TR5kWX, the "OC" regular enthusiast boards aren't everyday friendly.

If AMDs TR7k can beat Intel to release, I think we'll see lower than stupid prices from Intel, especially on the reduced feature 2400 chips (that 34c RPL wafer has been mentioned as a contender for it).
 

lopoetve

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I think many didn't consider Xeon parts as HEDT. For we've had workstation Xeon parts for a bit I think. And there are Epyc workstations out there.
They're blending the lines a bit on this next release, or supposedly were - some that are full on Xeons, and some that are slightly cut down HEDT - just all under the Xeon brand.
 

Grebuloner

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The issue is that the workstation parts will most likely have relatively low default clocks, not even boosting to 5ghz, just like the low clocks you get on true Xeons. In the past HEDT used to have pretty competitve clocks compared to the desktop ones.

https://wccftech.com/intel-sapphire...6-cores-8-channel-ddr5-memory-112-pcie-lanes/
Kind of depends on the ecosystem that we'll get with it. The X parts are supposed to be unlocked which will allow for those with big enough coolers* to run fast and hot the way it was meant to be. The base clocks are certainly lower than I was expecting for the core count and process changes vs, say, my 10980XE, but I'd expect true all-core capabilities to be at least 1-1.5 GHz higher for AVX loads and higher than that for non-AVX. But again, only if you can cool the beast.

*since the 2400s are purported to also use the 4000-odd pin server sockets, I don't think our current LGA20xx or even TR4 coolers will be compatible.
 

lopoetve

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Kind of depends on the ecosystem that we'll get with it. The X parts are supposed to be unlocked which will allow for those with big enough coolers* to run fast and hot the way it was meant to be. The base clocks are certainly lower than I was expecting for the core count and process changes vs, say, my 10980XE, but I'd expect true all-core capabilities to be at least 1-1.5 GHz higher for AVX loads and higher than that for non-AVX. But again, only if you can cool the beast.

*since the 2400s are purported to also use the 4000-odd pin server sockets, I don't think our current LGA20xx or even TR4 coolers will be compatible.
That will also depend on motherboards we get (enthusiast or just basic workstation boards), cooler support (other than basic ones), etc. Is it all like the Threadripper Pros, where you get workstation boards and nothing else, or something like the Dominus Extreme where you get a consumer focused board that handles a Xeon-W chip?
 

Grebuloner

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Roadmap leak

Advance info on everything. If true (likely), some interesting stuff in there showing for the new quasi-HEDT. Interesting that Intel won't even say HEDT for the current X299.

The cache structure is a little weird. No consistent L3/core ratio among the entire lineup. Some chips get big bonuses, some closer to 1.5 MB/core. The L2 complement would be nice to know, and if it's exclusive like current chips making for a larger pool. Was hoping for AMD-levels of cache/core. Really ups performance for my workloads.
 

ND40oz

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It appears as though these will require ECC memory according to that article, that's a shame if that's the case.
 

KazeoHin

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It appears as though these will require ECC memory according to that article, that's a shame if that's the case.
I doubt it will be required, but rather recommended considering the target demographic. These are going to be WorsktationCPUs, not HEDT. So Intel is trying to make those potential clients feel safe and warm and fuzzy. "EPIC GAMER OVERCLOCKING" is not warm and fuzzy, even though a lot of these chips are actually unlocked for overclocking.

I'm actually excited. I'd rather have really expensive unlocked HEDT parts with ECC support marketed toward Pixar and BlueSky than no HEDT parts at all.

Essentially, this is a return to form of Intel's original vision of HEDT which was "Xeons, but unlocked". Personally I'd love to see AMD follow suit with "Epycs, but unlocked"

Imagine grabbing one of those 96 core Epycs and a good waterblock, seing how far you can get it to boost.
 

Grebuloner

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Imagine grabbing one of those 96 core Epycs and a good waterblock, seing how far you can get it to boost.
As all AMD CCDs are the same inside, in theory you could run that beast at 7950X clocks if the silicon is part of the best binning, or at least something around a 4GHz all core. But at that point, you're going well beyond "waterblock" and closer to "liquid nitrogen loop and hope that the board VRMs and cables don't melt" levels of power. Kind of like those insane boards designed to OC the 3175X.

Would be fun, ne c'est pas?

I'm sure the unlocked chips will allow for running faster than 4800 memory, but wouldn't it be cool if they'd also allow for running faster than 4800 ECC RDIMMs? I think the W680 boards are an experiment in allowing ECC OCing?
 

KazeoHin

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As all AMD CCDs are the same inside, in theory you could run that beast at 7950X clocks if the silicon is part of the best binning, or at least something around a 4GHz all core. But at that point, you're going well beyond "waterblock" and closer to "liquid nitrogen loop and hope that the board VRMs and cables don't melt" levels of power. Kind of like those insane boards designed to OC the 3175X.

Would be fun, ne c'est pas?

I'm sure the unlocked chips will allow for running faster than 4800 memory, but wouldn't it be cool if they'd also allow for running faster than 4800 ECC RDIMMs? I think the W680 boards are an experiment in allowing ECC OCing?
Intel recently announced something like ECC 8000mts dimms. I'll see if I can find the article.
 

Grebuloner

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Intel recently announced something like ECC 8000mts dimms. I'll see if I can find the article.
I read that one, it's also at TH. Nifty tech that kind of sounds similar to what the initial 32GB dual-dimm-on-one-module did, but it requires cpu support with SPR unknown. Either way, need that sexy unlocked ecc memory controller capability.
 

Grebuloner

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That W5-3435x is looking yummy
Those 3400s are a nice bit of kit, aren't they? Personally, I'm getting juicy over the 2475X or 2495X with cost being a deciding factor. I'm sure there's quite a premium for a 3400 over a 2400.

That said, seeing all these slides and that all use the same(?) LGA4677 socket, I'll be very interested in what segmentation, if any, we get out of the motherboards, and how interchangeable they'll be between the 2400/3400/SP chips. Could be cool to start with a 2400 chip in an 8 channel board half-populated and work my way up to eventually getting an 8480+ with the built in HBM3. Like a great return to the X99 and older boards.

Too bad there's no Optane PMEM. Been wanting to play with that.
 

KazeoHin

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Those 3400s are a nice bit of kit, aren't they? Personally, I'm getting juicy over the 2475X or 2495X with cost being a deciding factor. I'm sure there's quite a premium for a 3400 over a 2400.

That said, seeing all these slides and that all use the same(?) LGA4677 socket, I'll be very interested in what segmentation, if any, we get out of the motherboards, and how interchangeable they'll be between the 2400/3400/SP chips. Could be cool to start with a 2400 chip in an 8 channel board half-populated and work my way up to eventually getting an 8480+ with the built in HBM3. Like a great return to the X99 and older boards.

Too bad there's no Optane PMEM. Been wanting to play with that.
I think it will be 8 dimm slots, and the IMC will either work as 4ch 2dpC or 8ch 1dpC depending. I highly doubt there will be overclocking boards with 16 dimm slots.


Though I could dream...
 

lopoetve

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Those 3400s are a nice bit of kit, aren't they? Personally, I'm getting juicy over the 2475X or 2495X with cost being a deciding factor. I'm sure there's quite a premium for a 3400 over a 2400.

That said, seeing all these slides and that all use the same(?) LGA4677 socket, I'll be very interested in what segmentation, if any, we get out of the motherboards, and how interchangeable they'll be between the 2400/3400/SP chips. Could be cool to start with a 2400 chip in an 8 channel board half-populated and work my way up to eventually getting an 8480+ with the built in HBM3. Like a great return to the X99 and older boards.

Too bad there's no Optane PMEM. Been wanting to play with that.
Dead tech. Intel killed it.
 

Grebuloner

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Dead tech. Intel killed it.
Yeah, I was a sad panda when I read thr news. It is interesting that the column is still present in the SKU charts. I've been seeing dimms show up on ebay for reasonable prices, but it doesn't look like they are supported on X299. Since you're Mr enterprise access guy, have you encountered any info on that? The sticks are still a little too high in cost to buy one just for the lulz of probably not working.
 

lopoetve

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Yeah, I was a sad panda when I read thr news. It is interesting that the column is still present in the SKU charts. I've been seeing dimms show up on ebay for reasonable prices, but it doesn't look like they are supported on X299. Since you're Mr enterprise access guy, have you encountered any info on that? The sticks are still a little too high in cost to buy one just for the lulz of probably not working.
I have a @#$#@ ton of the things - they only work in C-chipset boards (C421/etc), sadly - and given that X299 tops at 256G, that kinda makes sense (Optane DIMM tend to be on the big side). Good part of the lab has Optane PMEM as the majority of the ram capacity, tbh. No idea for sapphire rapids, and my contacts can't say, but it definitely wouldn't have been a priority that I can see - at least for consumer or prosumer kit.
 

zandor

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It appears as though these will require ECC memory according to that article, that's a shame if that's the case.
Intel's desktop chips should support ECC. Making you buy a Xeon for a stability feature is brain-damaged.

All I really want is extra lanes for a 10+Gb NIC and lots more NVMe drives. Maybe a RAID controller, so the board should have 2+ 8x slots in addition to the 16X for the vid card. AMD & Intel could make me happy with a better top end desktop chipset. 1 16X slot for a vid card, the rest go to the "workstation" chipset, and the chipset has like 64 lanes or something. Yes it's a performance hit going through the chipset instead of straight to the CPU, but it's not that bad and I'll take it if I can use a desktop chip with a $600 board instead of having to buy a Xeon or EPYC setup.
 
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