Former Compiz Developer: Free Software Desktop Might Enter A Dark Age [editorial]

tetris42

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And you wonder why people call you a shill. You come into a Linux based thread and think a comment about Windows users is all about you and other extreme gamers where Linux isn't an option. We get that. We've had to watch you and BulletDust hash that same argument over and over again for weeks now and we're all fucking sick of it.

However, this time around do us all a favor and try to get this through your hard head. NOT ALL WINDOWS USERS ARE LIKE YOU. IN FACT YOU HEATLESSSUN ARE THE EXTREME MINORITY IN THE WINDOWS WORLD.

Out of the roughly 270 million PCs sold in 2016 how many do you think were crazy high end systems like yours? Well based on the Steam Surveys not very many. You always brag about your 1080s or whatever stupidly expensive cards are in your "sig rig". Barely over 1% even use 1080. Titan's aren't even listed as something being used. Steam doesn't show who uses an mGPU setup but you can easily surmise that those numbers aren't exactly large either especially since 45% of the standard desktop resolution used is still 1080p where mGPU is hardly a requirement. A whole .39% percent use VR. Yet you keep talking about VR this and VR that when arguing against Linux when according to Steam 99.61% of the gaming world doesn't give a fuck about VR.

LBJM wasn't making that comment directly at you or any other die hard gamer. Again we've had to deal with you and Bullet arguing incessantly for weeks about that bullshit. LBJM was making it at the general population (and probably should have been more specific in his wording :p ).

My mother-in-laws laptop is this god awful bloated HP Windows 10 machine that takes at least 10 minutes to fully boot. She doesn't complain. She just thinks that's how Windows is. My father-in-law is looking at buying her a new laptop now. Sad thing is they could just drop some easy Linux version on that sucker and be more than fine. The hardware isn't the problem. It's all the bloat that gets added to Windows because of all that "software support" you so love to talk about. That bloat is something we in the Linux world don't have to even bother worrying about.

You know all that wonderful software like Adobe Reader that automatically adds extensions to Chrome or Java updates that install Yahoo security ridden bullshit. We here at the [H] understand what to watch for. However, users like my in-laws and my parents make up what? 90% (maybe more) of that 270 million PCs sold in 2016? Those are the people that DON'T know what to look for and simply click "next" because they just want that dialog box gone. Those are the people that don't give a shit about VR or games. Those are the people where a vast majority could be very happy using Linux and be worry free about shit like malware and ransomware.

But my in-laws are too lazy to even consider moving to Linux. They'd rather just buy a new laptop. On the flip side you do have the other ones though that are willing to try something different like my father. He ordered a Chromebook. Unfortunately, Amazon sent him the wrong laptop and he kept that instead when Amazon gave him the choice since it was technically a far more powerful laptop. Again some Windows 10 thing from ASUS that is now the bane of his existence. He hates Windows 10 and he hates having a Microsoft Live account. The only reason he has that account is because of the bullshit shady social engineering on the Windows 10 setup and you damn well know what I'm talking about. I can guarantee one thing...that ASUS will be the last Windows machine in my fathers house. Windows 10 has soured him that badly on it.

So yes the average person that has zero need to be on Windows but is unwilling to even consider or research another option is being lazy.
You guys are having a pow wow over how Windows users are stupid and can't learn anything, but I really have to question if that's even the case. I think the vast majority of Windows users are on Windows for one of two reasons:

1. It's what came with their computer, so that's what they use.

2. It runs the software they need.

I personally do NOT think the interface is Linux's biggest problem by a longshot. In fact, I think Linux is at a state where it's good enough for grandma. It's only once you run into specialist needs where it starts to fall apart. Just because heartlesssun may be a specific minority, if you total everyone who does something in Windows where there's simply no functional equivalent on Linux, it starts to be a significant number. Trying to bring Linux up to speed on #2 is a gargantuan task. Targeting #1 is what needs to happen for greater marketshare. If Linux users are serious about wanting to gain market penetration, I think they would have to look into cutting deals with major manufacturers and actually pay them to make a distro of Linux a default option. Simply being a viable alternative for many functions hasn't changed Linux desktop penetration that much in decades.
 

heatlesssun

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You guys are having a pow wow over how Windows users are stupid and can't learn anything, but I really have to question if that's even the case. I think the vast majority of Windows users are on Windows for one of two reasons:

1. It's what came with their computer, so that's what they use.

2. It runs the software they need.

I personally do NOT think the interface is Linux's biggest problem by a longshot. In fact, I think Linux is at a state where it's good enough for grandma. It's only once you run into specialist needs where it starts to fall apart. Just because heartlesssun may be a specific minority, if you total everyone who does something in Windows where there's simply no functional equivalent on Linux, it starts to be a significant number. Trying to bring Linux up to speed on #2 is a gargantuan task. Targeting #1 is what needs to happen for greater marketshare. If Linux users are serious about wanting to gain market penetration, I think they would have to look into cutting deals with major manufacturers and actually pay them to make a distro of Linux a default option. Simply being a viable alternative for many functions hasn't changed Linux desktop penetration that much in decades.

Well stated. Pro desktop Linux folks vastly underestimate the power of the Windows ecosystem. There's just so many hardware and software options not readily available for Linux.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I feel like we read different blog posts.

I read the story of a someone who poured a lot of time and effort into UNITY, commented on good times and bad times, pointed out his thoughts on why UNITY failed, told his prediction of where free software in general was going (based on support from various companies) and then asked the community to keep free software going. Where did you get that he thought dropping UNITY would lead to a dark age for open source. Where did you get that he decries Ubuntu's decision to switch?


I agree, overall his blog post was a thoughtful walk through the project. I can't comment to its accuracy, as I wasn't there.

I wrote my editorial based on the one paragraph I quoted which I disagreed with. The philosophy that corporate projects are what keep the open source movement moving forward, and that without Unity we may be moving towards a dark age.
 

ChadD

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I agree, overall his blog post was a thoughtful walk through the project. I can't comment to its accuracy, as I wasn't there.

I wrote my editorial based on the one paragraph I quoted which I disagreed with. The philosophy that corporate projects are what keep the open source movement moving forward, and that without Unity we may be moving towards a dark age.

I think a lot of people agree with you completely. The big houses that are pushing workstation adoption... Redhat(cent) Suse Ubuntu Oracle will now be on the same default desktop. I believethat can only help Gnome become more and more a polished workstation desktop and be the sort of everyday polished desktop some people complain (incorrectly) Linux still doesn't have.

There are tons of user and smaller distro projects that are based on Gnome code which will benefit from the extra support going into their core code sources.

Other popular projects like XFCE the LX projects and the windows managers like open box... where never really seeing any of that corp level funding development anyway. They where and always will be community driven. For those projects it was never going to matter much what the top 10 commercial distro guys where setting their developers to work on. It is possible a few desktop projects with very spotty support may fall more out of favor... but that happens anyway all the time and rightfully so if no one is working on them anymore there is a reason. I think most Linux users realize there are really 5-6 good desktops... and a couple usable windows managers. Everything else is mostly noise, projects that start and then don't see an update for months and sometimes years, yet still limp around. I get why so many new Linux users get confused when they see 20+ desktop options. If nothing else at least this change makes the Gnome more the standard basic desktop (and really it already was... ubuntu was the odd man out, as pretty much every other commercially viable Linux used Gnome).

Not trying to say their shouldn't be 20+ desktops though... the wonderful thing about open source is all the forkes to fill niches. That isn't going to change at all. The more solid Gnome gets instead of all that top dollar development being split the better... as many of the popular forked UIs are forking off Gnome.
 
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ManofGod

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The unity desktop was the only good one, in my opinion, that came installed out of the box. Everything I want is on the side, one click away. If I need anything else, I can open the unity menu, type something and there it is or, I can select the applications button and find what I want that way. The "start menu" that Linux desktop managers try to implement is at best, cryptic, and at worst, down right..........

Oh and Hi all!

Here we go again. :D

Edit: I truly do wish that Microsoft would have copy righted the start menu, since they invented it. Too bad the Linux community have not been able to come up with anything unique.
 

heatlesssun

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Here, did I say it enough times for you? :D LOL! Personally, I am sick of LInux elitist claiming they are the savior of the computer world. Oh well, it is a damn shame because, I enjoy using all computer operating systems and hardware, you believe your choice is superior to all others, at least from what I can see.

This is a long standing problem in the Linux community. The average person just wants to use their computer for whatever task needed or desired. There's clearly strengths that desktop Linux has. I've pointed them out many, many times. Sure, no issues with local malware, much more malleable and far less concerns with privacy and data collection. Even shills like me will concede obvious things. And because of Windows overwhelming market share on the desktop its ecosystem is FAR superior to anything else in the desktop space.

Popularity doesn't make something good but when it comes to computing platforms popularity is the driving force in 3rd party support.
 

ChadD

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Edit: I truly do wish that Microsoft would have copy righted the start menu, since they invented it. Too bad the Linux community have not been able to come up with anything unique.

Do you not believe if they could have they would have ?

You can't patent something you didn't invent. You hope you don't get sued by the people that did. Thankfully for MS its an idea that drifted in one form or another into enough GUIs since Xerox GUIS in the 70s that no one was suing anyone over such a basic idea. Hiring some stones music, and putting the word START on it doesn't make it new. lol

As for you thoughts on unity... dude you just described exactly how Gnome works. Special key should bring up the application search... if you want everything on the side there is an easy to install extension for that (it installs from the Gnome extension website https://extensions.gnome.org/ Dock To Dash its pretty popular).

Yes many of the Linux desktop projects try and replicate X or Y Windows or Mac like UI. However cliaming Gnome is anything like Windows is a bit silly sounding to anyone that has actually used Gnome.

I guess its also not unique to have a Desktop Manager that can boot more then one Desktop envio on the same system. How about being able to easily change the actual fonts your OS UI uses. How about being able to use all your GUI software with a Win manager like open box which only uses aprox 3mb of memory itself. Nor is it unique to have extensions installed via the web.

Then of course there are the thing MS just plain lifted from Linux... Multiple desktops, Task View, Desktop+online search all in one, Windows 10 PowerShell package Manager (ok there version is still shit but still they're trying)

Then of course they copied some of the stuff many Linux people hate.... but at least we have the option to change our flat looking boarders and not install a bunch of flat looking icons. ;)

Here, did I say it enough times for you? :D LOL! Personally, I am sick of LInux elitist claiming they are the savior of the computer world. Oh well, it is a damn shame because, I enjoy using all computer operating systems and hardware, you believe your choice is superior to all others, at least from what I can see.

We don't believe anything. We know our OS is superior. And I do enjoy messing with BSD, still find it fun finding old gems. (A client I dealt with recently had a boneyward room with a couple old HP-UX machines that still booted when I plugged them in.) I don't however enjoy using windows honestly... I do still have a Win 7 drive as the game industry is still playing the MS tune. Still I don't enjoy having to use that OS, its just the most viable option to play MMOs and a handful of games on. Oh and just a note cause lots of people seem to not understand what Linux is.... Linux is a kernel nothing more really. Also many of the "Linux" desktops aren't strictly speaking Linux anything, they are open source projects that are also found running in BSD based distros. :)
 

ChadD

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And a car is nothing more than an engine. A house nothing more than the foundation.

Exactly heatle... you at least seem to understand what "Linux" is. Its the engine, the foundation of a bunch of different OS systems. The GNU distros that are often found on desktops... the Linux of OpenWRT or the Leaf project developed for routers... the LTS Kernel that is used as the foundation of Android and ChromeOS (google backports many newer kernel fixes into a LTS kernel much the same way Redhat does with their RHEL)... the many customized headless server spins being used by large data centers.... funny enough the headless Linux powered systems driving many Car systems from backup assist to auto park ect as well as many of the auto pilot like systems in development.

All built on the same engine design. When your talking about "Desktop" Linux your often talking about projects like KDE and other desktop projects that are not Linux. They may be included in plenty of Linux OS distros... still they are themselves not Linux, they are open source desktop projects that can be used with BSD Linux... or can be adapted to work with other Kernels. I admit it would be tedious to refer to every Linux distro as its own OS, still it isn't really correct to just call them all "Linux". Although getting back tot his actual thread... many Linux people like the idea of all the major Commercial Linux OS manufacturers using and contributing to the same desktop code now once Ubuntu switchs back to Gnome from their own Unity fork. It gives "desktop" Linux a legit universal desktop... which is something I have heard you complain about in the past. Well Gnome is now the standard Linux desktop for all the major commercial vendors. You and some of the other posters who claim to want to love Linux but can't cause Reasons... can now scratch one of those reasons off. Good right ? :)
 
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heatlesssun

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Exactly heatle... you at least seem to understand what "Linux" is.

No complex system is just its foundation however. You know the saying, that the sum of parts is different than the whole. Desktop Linux simply doesn't have the ecosystem of Windows and the ecosystem of Windows is what makes if whole. The reason why Windows endures is because Microsoft, for all of the mistakes it's made of the years, has hit the nail on the head a few times. "Developers, developers, developers!" That's what makes a interesting and useful platform for most people, not the kernel.
 

Snowdog

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We don't believe anything. We know our OS is superior.

Yeah, religious zealots, always know they are right. :rolleyes:

It is this kind of arrogant attitude that probably helps keep more normal people away from Linux.

This jarred a memory of all the Linux advocates around here, getting their relatives to use Linux and claiming nothing but happy outcomes.

I feel sorry for these relatives. How could they not humor them, when facing Zealots who know what's best. Their Linux Switch is obviously instigated by the Linux advocate, eventually wearing them down.

Insufferable zealots are easy to deal with a on a forum. We can just ignore them, or call them on their crap, but to have one as a relative must really suck.
 

ChadD

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Yeah, religious zealots, always know they are right. :rolleyes:

It is this kind of arrogant attitude that probably helps keep more normal people away from Linux.

This jarred a memory of all the Linux advocates around here, getting their relatives to use Linux and claiming nothing but happy outcomes.

I feel sorry for these relatives. How could they not humor them, when facing Zealots who know what's best. Their Linux Switch is obviously instigated by the Linux advocate, eventually wearing them down.

Insufferable zealots are easy to deal with a on a forum. We can just ignore them, or call them on their crap, but to have one as a relative must really suck.

Man can't even rib the local Windows booster club just a little.

Seriously though I do have friends and family I have helped setup linux systems... and I have friends and family I help when they need windows things done. Which reminds me I have an old Win 7 HP laptop behind me of the mother in laws with a dead screen that I am supposed to backup 100 gbs of pictures off of this weekend. Best do that before she starts calling. lmao :)
 
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Snowdog

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Man can't even rib the local Windows booster club just a little.

Regardless of your intention, you created a perfect example of the arrogance that pervades the Linux community.

And that combined with all the claims of relatives getting Linux, gave a flash of insight of what it must be like to be a captive relative, on the receiving end of up close zealotry.

Because lets be real, no one unversed in Linux, is asking anyone to swap their OS from Windows to Linux, and most people would resist requests to make such a drastic change, so it must take some persistence.

So regardless of your intent, you still provided some insight into how bad it is being the relative of a Linux zealot.
 

ChadD

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Regardless of your intention, you created a perfect example of the arrogance that pervades the Linux community.

And that combined with all the claims of relatives getting Linux, gave a flash of insight of what it must be like to be a captive relative, on the receiving end of up close zealotry.

Because lets be real, no one unversed in Linux, is asking anyone to swap their OS from Windows to Linux, and most people would resist requests to make such a drastic change, so it must take some persistence.

So regardless of your intent, you still provided some insight into how bad it is being the relative of a Linux zealot.

You know it honestly doesn't take much prodding to convert friends and relatives. I mean people that know me know what I do for a living. So it sort of comes up. I convert plenty of offices to Linux so go figure when relatives ask what I do for a living they often bring up Linux... and I'm in my 40s they have been calling for Computer help for 20+ years. I don't convert everyone I know no, and I doubt other "Linux Zelots" do either. I answer questions and sometimes they ask if they could check it out. If they are in my home they end up seeing Linux. You hardly have to hold anyone hostage... I don't go and wipe brand new Windows installs and replace them with Linux. In most cases someone asks me if they should go buy a new machine or if I could perhaps fix up their windows that is running like ass. Sure sometimes I either clean up their windows for them cause I'm a nice guy, or I fresh install windows for them if they have managed to bork it up, and a handful have asked me if I would put something else on cause all they want to do is surf the web and type a few things up.

I would feel much more sorry for families where the resident computer geek among them suggests going and buying a new PC every 2 years with a nice new windows install. I have helped some people stretch their machines out another 4-5 years cause damn you don't need a new crappy dell every few years if all you want to do is run Google Chrome and an office program.
 

heatlesssun

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You know it honestly doesn't take much prodding to convert friends and relatives. I mean people that know me know what I do for a living. So it sort of comes up. I convert plenty of offices to Linux so go figure when relatives ask what I do for a living they often bring up Linux... and I'm in my 40s they have been calling for Computer help for 20+ years. I don't convert everyone I know no, and I doubt other "Linux Zelots" do either. I answer questions and sometimes they ask if they could check it out. If they are in my home they end up seeing Linux. You hardly have to hold anyone hostage... I don't go and wipe brand new Windows installs and replace them with Linux. In most cases someone asks me if they should go buy a new machine or if I could perhaps fix up their windows that is running like ass. Sure sometimes I either clean up their windows for them cause I'm a nice guy, or I fresh install windows for them if they have managed to bork it up, and a handful have asked me if I would put something else on cause all they want to do is surf the web and type a few things up.

I would feel much more sorry for families where the resident computer geek among them suggests going and buying a new PC every 2 years with a nice new windows install. I have helped some people stretch their machines out another 4-5 years cause damn you don't need a new crappy dell every few years if all you want to do is run Google Chrome and an office program.

I'm in a similar situation where friends and family are often asking for computer help. Some of them have seen me with certain devices or have been in my office. Even the pro desktop Linux folks say the things I do are niche or specialized, so when average folks see the things I use, well, it can get interesting. If the stuff I used were cheap everyone would buy the stuff they see me with, but yeah, average folks aren't going to spend that kind of dough.

All of my portable PC devices are Surface devices these days. And yeah, the 2 in 1 nature does seem to interest a lot of people looking into new PCs these days. So when asked I try to find something in the budget requested. The thing is, I don't think much about the OS, just the budget and these days is people are looking for a 2 in 1. Honestly I'm way more a shill carrying around something like a Surface Book than a place like this because people see the screen come off and ask "What is that?".
 

ChadD

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I'm in a similar situation where friends and family are often asking for computer help. Some of them have seen me with certain devices or have been in my office. Even the pro desktop Linux folks say the things I do are niche or specialized, so when average folks see the things I use, well, it can get interesting. If the stuff I used were cheap everyone would buy the stuff they see me with, but yeah, average folks aren't going to spend that kind of dough.

All of my portable PC devices are Surface devices these days. And yeah, the 2 in 1 nature does seem to interest a lot of people looking into new PCs these days. So when asked I try to find something in the budget requested. The thing is, I don't think much about the OS, just the budget and these days is people are looking for a 2 in 1. Honestly I'm way more a shill carrying around something like a Surface Book than a place like this because people see the screen come off and ask "What is that?".

So you understand then... when they see my personal computers. Running Gnome, or a customized Openbox.... or when I bring my laptop over to their place so I can download things I may need as they completely borked their machines, they see that I have something interesting like kali on it they ask questions. Yes at this point if I like someone enough to be at their house helping them cause I'm nice and family and friends don't have to pay me to be nice to them... they have a good idea already what it is I do. :) If you don't know how I pay my bills your not on my short list of people I help for a dinner invite.

Sure I have suggested some people buy windows machines as well... I know shocker right. But sure for that uncle I have that I know is a manager at a bank that runs windows I'm not going to try and talk him into installing a Linux distro, why would I do that. Although sure recently I helped someone I know pick out a half decent chrome book. As I have said... no I don't go over and look at my friends new Dell laptop and go AHHHH her let me put Linux on that for you. lol Of course when they call me up and say hey my 4 year old Dell desktop is running like junk but I barely use the stupid thing, can you suggest a good cheapo right now... sure I ask them what they need and ask if they would like me to help them back up their stuffs so they have it and put a distro on for them to try. I have done I don't know 4 or 5 of those over the last few years, not a lot a few friends a couple uncles type thing. Everyone of them was more then happy with what I did for them... and of course they aren't hard core gamers like you nor are they using some specfic Windows only thing from work or something.

I mean forget home users... I convert a lot of workplaces. For the most part people that are paid to sit their at there computers all day don't really much care if they are staring at some locked down version of windows or some locked down version of Linux. Most people at home aren't much different really as long as the machine does what they want it to do they're cool. Linux does all those basic things on par with Windows these days, and imo is often better for the type of people that are easily tricked into downloading crap software and all the other junk I have had to clean up for people over the years. It can't be stated enough... if all the user needs is basic internet browsing, some document editing, listening to music, burning the odd Car CD or whatever. Linux covers all of that and I don't have to get a yearly dinner invite to come over and clean the junk, and porn cookies off their systems. lmao ;)
 
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heatlesssun

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So you understand then... when they see my personal computers. Running Gnome, or a customized Openbox.... or when I bring my laptop over to their place so I can download things I may need as they completely borked their machines, they see that I have something interesting like kali on it they ask questions. Yes at this point if I like someone enough to be at their house helping them cause I'm nice and family and friends don't have to pay me to be nice to them... they have a good idea already what it is I do. :) If you don't know how I pay my bills your not on my short list of people I help for a dinner invite.

Exactly. Anyone is going to be influenced in subject matters by this with superior experience and knowledge. However, even in a place like this, I have a pretty good collection of modern and unique hardware. I've found that hardware tends to entice folks more than software, at least at fist glance. And for all of the supposed love of Windows folks say I have, it's really the hardware that drives me. The money this supposed Windows lover spends on computing BY FAR goes into hardware. Then software. And the OS is irrelevant. It's amazing how many pro-desktop Linux folks TOTALY NEVER HEAR WHAT I SAY ON THAT. I'm a Windows lover yet 99% of the money I spend goes into hardware and software.

Sure I have suggested some people buy windows machines as well... I know shocker right. But sure for that uncle I have that I know is a manager at a bank that runs windows I'm not going to try and talk him into installing a Linux distro, why would I do that. Although sure recently I helped someone I know pick out a half decent chrome book. As I have said... no I don't go over and look at my friends new Dell laptop and go AHHHH her let me put Linux on that for you. lol Of course when they call me up and say hey my 4 year old Dell desktop is running like junk but I barely use the stupid thing, can you suggest a good cheapo right now... sure I ask them what they need and ask if they would like me to help them back up their stuffs so they have it and put a distro on for them to try. I have done I don't know 4 or 5 of those over the last few years, not a lot a few friends a couple uncles type thing. Everyone of them was more then happy with what I did for them... and of course they aren't hard core gamers like you nor are they using some specfic Windows only thing from work or something.

Again, exactly. You're describing the folks I've always said could be ok with Linux, people that don't have strong specific needs or desires beyond simply having the machine run . Yet when I say that, I'm a shill.

I mean forget home users... I convert a lot of workplaces. For the most part people that are paid to sit their at there computers all day don't really much care if they are staring at some locked down version of windows or some locked down version of Linux. Most people at home aren't much different really as long as the machine does what they want it to do they're cool. Linux does all those basic things on par with Windows these days, and imo is often better for the type of people that are easily tricked into downloading crap software and all the other junk I have had to clean up for people over the years. It can't be stated enough... if all the user needs is basic internet browsing, some document editing, listening to music, burning the odd Car CD or whatever. Linux covers all of that and I don't have to get a yearly dinner invite to come over and clean the junk, and porn cookies off their systems. lmao ;)

Ok. This doesn't work at a mega bank with hundreds of thousands of PCs and the need to run Office.
 

ChadD

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Again, exactly. You're describing the folks I've always said could be ok with Linux, people that don't have strong specific needs or desires beyond simply having the machine run . Yet when I say that, I'm a shill.

Ok. This doesn't work at a mega bank with hundreds of thousands of PCs and the need to run Office.

Na your a shill when you refuse to accept that something like 95%+ of the PC users in the world don't need high end game support... or care about having every Nvidia card the day it shows up at the computer store. :) I bug you but I think the only time I have ever joking called you a shill its when your argument boiled down to but but but VR. Cause I'm sorry most people don't care about VR or PC games in general for that matter. For most people their idea of PC gaming is playing facebook games... Sad perhaps still sad truths are still truths.

As for banks... well it depends on the bank. lol Yes I called to one example in my own life where I know someone who works at a large bank that still mostly uses windows. (well not on their servers obviously). Still I have helped at least one local credit union switch almost all their terminals away from windows to a pretty customized Linux distro.... still ya in general the banking industry is pretty backward everywhere from what I understand. :) As for MS office... I know we have argued it up and down... trust me MS office is not the selling point commercially that you think it is. Most companies stick with it cause they are too scared to run into issues with files sent to them from their lawyers or suppliers or what have you... almost every company I ever switched away from MS office did it in pieces. They would start with a few machines and slowly replace, out of fear they would run into issues. When that never happens... they stop paying MS. The honest truth is very few companies do anything that requires MS office over any of the open source options. Arguing that you have to keep a windows machine with MS office around for business is as stupid as arguing you need to keep a Mac around so you can open PDF files.
 

heatlesssun

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Na your a shill when you refuse to accept that something like 95%+ of the PC users in the world don't need high end game support...

My typical daily use of PCs falls well outside the bounds of both Windows and desktop Linux folks. Meaningless point.


or care about having every Nvidia card the day it shows up at the computer store.

Again, well outside the bounds of either Windows or desktop Linux users.

:) I bug you but I think the only time I have ever joking called you a shill its when your argument boiled down to but but but VR. Cause I'm sorry most people don't care about VR or PC games in general for that matter. For most people their idea of PC gaming is playing facebook games... Sad perhaps still sad truths are still truths.

And again, I said earlier that I'm in unique PC hardware and have been for as long as I've been able to afford it. Most people my not care about VR now but I do believe it's representative of mainstream in the future.


As for banks... well it depends on the bank. lol Yes I called to one example in my own life where I know someone who works at a large bank that still mostly uses windows. (well not on their servers obviously). Still I have helped at least one local credit union switch almost all their terminals away from windows to a pretty customized Linux distro....

Whatever that case may be we're going to 10, done deal.

still ya in general the banking industry is pretty backward everywhere from what I understand.

In the last decade that's changed a great deal. Large banks have a lot of legacy systems and as so many people around love to promote, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And that's been the mentality of lots of institutions that have acquired others over the years.

:) As for MS office... I know we have argued it up and down... trust me MS office is not the selling point commercially that you think it is.

Microsoft Office is an insanely powerful platform. To this day for instance, the Ribbon. A decade old now and people are arguing how confusing it is. After ten years obviously not. Hatred of Microsoft runs so deep (not saying that's you) that competitors have a hard time realizing that hey, even a broken analog clock is correct twice a day. Microsoft Office at this point is so good across some many platforms natively, good luck.
 

ChadD

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And again, I said earlier that I'm in unique PC hardware and have been for as long as I've been able to afford it. Most people my not care about VR now but I do believe it's representative of mainstream in the future.

We'll see, you know I used to say the same thing about Linux.... One day One day this will be mainstream you just wait. ;)

I still believe for VR to happen all the companies currently pushing it need to agree on one universal standard and stop fighting over every early adopter developer willing to make something cool.

Its funny how much VR development is paralleling Linux desktop development. A few early companies jumping in and pushing it hard, but not being completely open and pushing their own tech, there by having issues with compatibility and formats.

We'll see how VR progresses. I have seen some really cool VR, I would love for it to take off. I just think without a clear standard good luck convincing everyday mainstream users to drop 1000s of dollars on PC VR. The console VR may be the only VR that does any amount of sales the next handful of years. No one wants to get stuck with the VR equivalent of a Beta tape player or Mini Disc.

Funny enough I know MS has been talking about pushing VR... at this point having a company like MS come in and define a standard that the other guys conform to would likely be a good thing for PC VR. Without a standard I imagine the Playstation VR will die off just like Wii style movement controls and the masses will just write it off as another gimmick no one really needed, which had money grubby companies trying to cash in on like 3D televisions.
 

heatlesssun

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We'll see, you know I used to say the same thing about Linux.... One day One day this will be mainstream you just wait. ;)

Of course but Windows is pretty mainstream.

I still believe for VR to happen all the companies currently pushing it need to agree on one universal standard and stop fighting over every early adopter developer willing to make something cool.

VE isn't as chaotic as that. Much of it current divisions have to do with the Vive having top notching tracking out before others.

Its funny how much VR development is paralleling Linux desktop development. A few early companies jumping in and pushing it hard, but not being completely open and pushing their own tech, there by having issues with compatibility and formats.

We'll see how VR progresses. I have seen some really cool VR, I would love for it to take off. I just think without a clear standard good luck convincing everyday mainstream users to drop 1000s of dollars on PC VR. The console VR may be the only VR that does any amount of sales the next handful of years. No one wants to get stuck with the VR equivalent of a Beta tape player or Mini Disc.

Funny enough I know MS has been talking about pushing VR... at this point having a company like MS come in and define a standard that the other guys conform to would likely be a good thing for PC VR. Without a standard I imagine the Playstation VR will die off just like Wii style movement controls and the masses will just write it off as another gimmick no one really needed, which had money grubby companies trying to cash in on like 3D televisions.

Indeed we'll see. PCVR is an exceptionally unique tech. I've only been using it for about 4 months but it's blown my mind. I had no idea what the capabilities were until I spent more that some passing time with it. This tech isn't going away.
 
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MATE FTW!

Less QQ, more pew pew. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Seems like all software nowadays is broken because people take a good thing and ruin it.
 
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Unfortunately, in Windows, we don't have any desktop environment choices. All we have is that crappy bland 1980s theme in Windows 10. XP and 7 were so much nicer...

Microsoft has always sucked when it comes to third party themes. They could support and embrace it, but instead, they just force one choice down our throats. At least in XP and 7, you could patch the system to allow third party themes. You can in 10 to a certain extent as well, but things like the taskbar are no longer styleable.
 

ph0ng

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Messages
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I agree with Zarathustra. Ubuntu abandoning Gnome all those years ago threw us into the dark ages. To this day, while I guess there are people who like Unity, I haven't met one. ;)

When they abandoned Gnome it caused chaos because there was no major player backing Gnome anymore and right then Gnome 3 launched. Gnome 3 in itself was a huge shakeup because of the changes from Gnome 2. To this day I firmly believe that if Ubuntu had stuck with Gnome we would not have had the insane amount of forking of Gnome 2 and other DE's that we ended up getting. People hated Unity and hated Gnome 3 (again I think there would have been far less hate if backed by Canonical at that time) so they forked Gnome 2 or moved to another DE and then forked that b/c it wasn't what they wanted. So it was the dark ages because so many people were looking to make the next great DE.

All that forking led us to things like Cinnamon and MATE and I'm not saying choice is a bad thing, but how many desktop environments do we really need on Linux?

Unity
Gnome
KDE
XFCE
LXDE
LXQT
Cinnamon
MATE
Budgie
Deepin
Enlightenment
CDE
EDE
Liri
Pantheon
theShell
Trinity

And I'm sure I'm forgetting a few there...

You are misunderstanding Linux philosophy. The DE is a component of the system, rather than the system itself...other than Unity. Unity was a moronic venture Canonical went on to try to SELL something when they moved into market and had to 'come up with something' outside of public license. It's why they abandoned Gnome support. It is easily the worst Linux UI ever created.

On a different note, these are just different UI design philosophies with focuses on different types of systems and usages.
 
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tetris42

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Na your a shill when you refuse to accept that something like 95%+ of the PC users in the world don't need high end game support... or care about having every Nvidia card the day it shows up at the computer store. :) I bug you but I think the only time I have ever joking called you a shill its when your argument boiled down to but but but VR. Cause I'm sorry most people don't care about VR or PC games in general for that matter. For most people their idea of PC gaming is playing facebook games... Sad perhaps still sad truths are still truths.
I like how you say this is the "truth" based on nothing and keep keep trying to downplay PC gaming in all this. Yes, the majority of computer users aren't concerned with gaming, but when we're talking Linux desktop numbers, things start looking differently. Do you realize there are literally more PC gamers on Windows than there are TOTAL Linux desktop users? I'm not talking Candy Crush either, it's bigger no matter how you slice it:

If you want a ridiculous number, you can go with 1.2 billion:
https://mygaming.co.za/news/feature...world-and-pc-gaming-dominates-the-market.html

I think that's inflated though, the ESA isn't always the best at producnig reliable information, so let's move on down to Intel:
http://www.pcgamer.com/there-are-711-million-pc-gamers-in-the-world-today-says-intel/

They probably have a clue, but that HAS to include all the casual people you're mentioning. So how many are there? Well the article has since been buried (maybe it got archived somewhere), but their projections at the time for 2009 put "mainstream and high end gamers" in other words NOT casual facebook stuff at around 100-150 million out of 250-375 million total:
https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2009/03/03/just-how-many-pc-gamers-are-there

So assuming the percentage still hold, that would be ~190-285 million REAL pc gamers today. Meanwhile, how many Desktop Linux users are there? Something like 75 million?

So simply put, in raw numbers, more people care about gaming on Windows than ALL usage of desktop Linux. It's that's simple. I'm not saying this as an attack on Linux, I would love to see it grow; more that downplaying the influence gaming is a mistake if you're looking at adoption rates. If Linux could support the majority of GENERAL PC GAMES, forget VR, forget multi-GPU, it would open up the potential for adoption rates an order of magnitude beyond its entire current userbase. But hey, games are stupid, nobody cares.
 

Snowdog

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I would feel much more sorry for families where the resident computer geek among them suggests going and buying a new PC every 2 years with a nice new windows install. I have helped some people stretch their machines out another 4-5 years cause damn you don't need a new crappy dell every few years if all you want to do is run Google Chrome and an office program.

Why would anyone need a new computer every two years? More of the Windows falls apart nonsense? It is these kind of disingenuous attacks on Windows that further paint the Linux advocates as zealots.

I have been running the same original install of Windows 7 that I installed not long after it came out, on my only home PC that is heavily used for everything (the Monitor on this machine has 40000+ hours on it).

It works perfectly. Solid stable and fast. Boots in about 40 seconds (IIRC) on my ancient HW.

Way back in the dark days when Microsoft was doing some serious nasty shit that got them a trial with the government, I used to be fairly anti-Microsoft and itching to ditch Windows for Linux, so I have been installing Linux about as long as I have been installing Windows (Early 90's with Windows 3.1 and Slackware). So I have had a lot of exposure to the Linux community over the years, and really the Linux community seems to be full toxic zealots.

Something more and more insiders are realizing:
From Mark Shuttleworth GooglePlus feed (can't link here for some reason):

The whole Mir hate-fest boggled my mind - it's free software that does something invisible really well. It became a political topic as irrational as climate change or gun control, where being on one side or the other was a sign of tribal allegiance. We have a problem in the community when people choose to hate free software instead of loving that someone cares enough to take their life's work and make it freely available.

I came to be disgusted with the hate on Mir. Really, it changed my opinion of the free software community.

I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream. When Windows was mainstream they hated on it. Rationally, Windows does many things well and deserves respect for those. And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too. The very same muppets would write about how terrible it was that IOS/Android had no competition and then how terrible it was that Canonical was investing in (free software!) compositing and convergence. Fuck that shit.

Linux Desktop usage seems more driven by hatred of mainstream and tribalism, than any kind of rational benefit.
 
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Zarathustra[H]

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Why would anyone need a new computer every two years? More of the Windows falls apart nonsense? It is these kind of disingenuous attacks on Windows that further paint the Linux advocates as zealots.

I have been running the same original install of Windows 7 that I installed not long after it came out, on my only home PC that is heavily used for everything (the Monitor on this machine has 40000+ hours on it).

It works perfectly. Solid stable and fast. Boots in about 40 seconds (IIRC) on my ancient HW.

Way back in the dark days when Microsoft was doing some serious nasty shit that got them a trial with the government, I used to be fairly anti-Microsoft and itching to ditch Windows for Linux, so I have been installing Linux about as long as I have been installing Windows (Early 90's with Windows 3.1 and Slackware). So I have had a lot of exposure to the Linux community over the years, and really the Linux community seems to be full toxic zealots.

Something more and more insiders are realizing:
From Mark Shuttleworth GooglePlus feed (can't link here for some reason):

The whole Mir hate-fest boggled my mind - it's free software that does something invisible really well. It became a political topic as irrational as climate change or gun control, where being on one side or the other was a sign of tribal allegiance. We have a problem in the community when people choose to hate free software instead of loving that someone cares enough to take their life's work and make it freely available.

I came to be disgusted with the hate on Mir. Really, it changed my opinion of the free software community.

I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream. When Windows was mainstream they hated on it. Rationally, Windows does many things well and deserves respect for those. And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too. The very same muppets would write about how terrible it was that IOS/Android had no competition and then how terrible it was that Canonical was investing in (free software!) compositing and convergence. Fuck that shit.

Linux Desktop usage seems more driven by hatred of mainstream and tribalism, than any kind of rational benefit.


There are a lot of asshats in every community, but it is true, Linux has a particularly vocal group. Heck, Linus Torvalds himself is a huge unprofessional asshat.

As a predominantly Linux user myself, anyone who can't acknowledge that using Windows has huge benefits is delusional.

To name a few, it has the biggest commercially available catalog of software in the history of computing (including games), it has instant hardware support for all new hardware, and gaming performance is much higher than alternative OS:es.

It also has some drawbacks. There's always the security and stability angle, though admittedly not as much today as in the past, as well as the disk/ram usage (it uses as much as 10 times more drive and ram space to do the same thing Linux does). It's also never going to be as tweakable and customizable as a Linux system is. That, and the heavy handed shit Microsoft is doing with Windows 10 is enough to drive many up a wall.

There's also preference. I - for one - hate digging through GUI config menus looking for the right option, and would much rather edit a well commented text config file from the command line to set something up. I also understand that there are those for which this sounds like a bloody nightmare.

Life is a series of compromises. You have to look at the benefits and drawbacks of everything and make choices. Very few things are without any merit at all, and neither Linux nor Windows fall into this group.

I am primarily a Linux user, yes, but I still dual boot to Windows for games, as the gaming experience under Windows is so much better. I also keep a Windows 10 VirtualBox VM on my Linux install for those things I just can't do in Linux. It used to be that this was a lot. These days I find that I load it less and less, sometimes going a couple of months between uses.

There are zealots in every group. There are also reasonable people who just want to use what works best for them. Pigeonholing Linux users as zealots means stereotyping a very large group of people. Sure, it may only be ~2% of computer users, but there are A LOT of computer users in the world.
 

ph0ng

n00b
Joined
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Messages
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Why would anyone need a new computer every two years? More of the Windows falls apart nonsense? It is these kind of disingenuous attacks on Windows that further paint the Linux advocates as zealots.

I have been running the same original install of Windows 7 that I installed not long after it came out, on my only home PC that is heavily used for everything (the Monitor on this machine has 40000+ hours on it).

It works perfectly. Solid stable and fast. Boots in about 40 seconds (IIRC) on my ancient HW.

Way back in the dark days when Microsoft was doing some serious nasty shit that got them a trial with the government, I used to be fairly anti-Microsoft and itching to ditch Windows for Linux, so I have been installing Linux about as long as I have been installing Windows (Early 90's with Windows 3.1 and Slackware). So I have had a lot of exposure to the Linux community over the years, and really the Linux community seems to be full toxic zealots.

Something more and more insiders are realizing:
From Mark Shuttleworth GooglePlus feed (can't link here for some reason):

The whole Mir hate-fest boggled my mind - it's free software that does something invisible really well. It became a political topic as irrational as climate change or gun control, where being on one side or the other was a sign of tribal allegiance. We have a problem in the community when people choose to hate free software instead of loving that someone cares enough to take their life's work and make it freely available.

I came to be disgusted with the hate on Mir. Really, it changed my opinion of the free software community.

I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream. When Windows was mainstream they hated on it. Rationally, Windows does many things well and deserves respect for those. And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too. The very same muppets would write about how terrible it was that IOS/Android had no competition and then how terrible it was that Canonical was investing in (free software!) compositing and convergence. Fuck that shit.

Linux Desktop usage seems more driven by hatred of mainstream and tribalism, than any kind of rational benefit.

A couple things. Linux Desktops are pretty awesome for 99 percent of tasks. That's not tribalism or irrational. Outside of gaming, Linux is a million times better than windows, free, and makes a better workstation if you are so inclined. For lightweight tasks (I would say most users aren't gamers) they could use Linux over windows. You need a server solution for the home, small business, big business? It's when we get to 'gaming' that Linux falls down. But that's the fault of MS and closed API.

Linux is pretty awesome, you should try out a couple different systems on a thumbdrive. OpenSUSE and Manjaro are currently my favorites, but I use the Crunchbang forks on my netbooks and sometimes Manjaro JWM.

I started on Ubuntu Hardy Heron 2008, and I'm devastated to see the direction Canonical has gone.

Edit: and to Zara, you are exactly correct. I have to maintain a dual-boot or a Windows VM on any Linux machine. That's just reality.

There ARE Linux distros that are designed to work as windows. Mint for example.
 
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Zarathustra[H]

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Something more and more insiders are realizing:
From Mark Shuttleworth GooglePlus feed (can't link here for some reason):

The whole Mir hate-fest boggled my mind - it's free software that does something invisible really well. It became a political topic as irrational as climate change or gun control, where being on one side or the other was a sign of tribal allegiance. We have a problem in the community when people choose to hate free software instead of loving that someone cares enough to take their life's work and make it freely available.

I came to be disgusted with the hate on Mir. Really, it changed my opinion of the free software community.

I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream. When Windows was mainstream they hated on it. Rationally, Windows does many things well and deserves respect for those. And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too. The very same muppets would write about how terrible it was that IOS/Android had no competition and then how terrible it was that Canonical was investing in (free software!) compositing and convergence. Fuck that shit.

Linux Desktop usage seems more driven by hatred of mainstream and tribalism, than any kind of rational benefit.


Also, the criticism of Mir was very legitimate.

Most of that criticism was about Mir's licensing model which required anyone contributing to the project to consent to Canonical taking their code, repackaging it, and re-licencing it under the license of their choice, including proprietary licenses. That, and - as I understand it - it would break compatibility across linux distributions turning Ubuntu - while based on linux -0 into its own proprietary operating system unable to run other Linux GUI applications.

Reactions against Mir were pretty much universally negative across the industry, including Intel who announced they would not be including any Mir related driver patches in their drivers.

Even the head of the Kubuntu project announced that they would not be following Ubuntu with Mir back in the day.

This is not just a bunch of haters. This is the comunity rising up against something truly bad and hurtful towards the community as a whole, and it is an all around positive thing that Mir is no longer for this world.

Mark Shuttleworth is just butthurt over it, as the head of the company that was trying to push it.
 

rgMekanic

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linux.jpg
 

heatlesssun

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A couple things. Linux Desktops are pretty awesome for 99 percent of tasks. That's not tribalism or irrational. Outside of gaming, Linux is a million times better than windows, free, and makes a better workstation if you are so inclined. For lightweight tasks (I would say most users aren't gamers) they could use Linux over windows. You need a server solution for the home, small business, big business? It's when we get to 'gaming' that Linux falls down. But that's the fault of MS and closed API.

The problem with desktop Linux support extends well beyond games. It's a problem with commercial software in general. And even in the case where people might be inclined to use commercial alternatives, virtually all of that stuff is cross-platform and runs on Windows. So saying that Linux is a million times better than Windows for workstation purposes when it lacks support for lots of software is well overstating it.
 

Snowdog

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... as well as the disk/ram usage (it uses as much as 10 times more drive and ram space to do the same thing Linux does).

Really? Where does it use 10 times more ram and disk space?

That's not tribalism or irrational. Outside of gaming, Linux is a million times better than windows, .

Really? A million times better. :rolleyes: Sure nothing irrational there.

Heatlesssun is likely the biggest Windows advocate in this forum, and he gets a lot of crap for it (and I have had my arguments with him as well), but he is polite, and sticks well to the facts, it's really only matters of opinion where he clashes with others.

But it seems like none of the Linux advocates can get through a single reply without looking fanatical, by posting over the top, misleading, or outright false claims.

I have probably been using Linux longer than most of the advocates here (Slackware 1.x from a stack of floppies I put together in the school computer lab in 1993 ), but the more I encounter these full on advocates, the more sour my opinion of the community gets.

Sure Mark Shuttleworth is upset about attacks and Mir and reacting. But that doesn't mean there isn't truth in what he says. He just got angry enough to drop the polite facade and let some truth leak out.

Extreme advocacy does much more harm than good to the Linux community.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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Really? Where does it use 10 times more ram and disk space?

Yes. Literally. This is not hyperbole, in fact I was probably erring in the favor of Windows here.

Do a fresh install of your favorite Linux distribution. It will install the operating system and a ton of default programs including an office suite, browsers, email clients, media programs image editors etc, and will do so with a VERY small amount of disk space

Currently my Linux Mint install with a ton of programs installed, once I subtract out user files uses 1.2GB on my disk. This is not even a fresh install. This has been my main install since June of last year when Mint 18 launched and I did a clean install (because I hadn't done one in years, and thought it was time) it includes all the software I use on a regular basis.

I just opened my Windows 10 Pro VM and did the same thing. Looked at how much space is used, and subtracted out the user folder. End result 22.5GB, and I have MUCH less software installed in my Windows 10 VM.


To sum it up:

Linux Mint 18.1 with all installed programs I use:
130GB parittion, 84GB used. 82.8GB in user files (most of this used space is actually the Windows VM image). Thus 1.2GB for installed OS and programs.

Windows 10 Pro VM with Office 2010 and only a few other programs installed:
60GB Partition, 22.9GB used. User folder is 1.5GB in size. Hibernation and swap are both disabled, so no large swap files taking up space. Thus 21.4GB for installed OS and Programs.

Thus my small Windows 10 VM with few programs installed is using 17.8x more disk space than my complete Linux install with all of my programs I use.

Windows 10 has improved in disk use over it's last couple of iterations, but it still uses a lot more disk space


Currently while I am posting news, I have more tabs than god open in Chrome, and I'm only using about 2GB of RAM total.
 

jardows

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They may be included in plenty of Linux OS distros... still they are themselves not Linux, they are open source desktop projects that can be used with BSD Linux... or can be adapted to work with other Kernels. :)

Please tell me you meant to type "that can be used with BSD, Linux..." There's no such thing as "BSD Linux."


A couple things. Linux Desktops are pretty awesome for 99 percent of tasks. That's not tribalism or irrational. Outside of gaming, Linux is a million times better than windows, free, and makes a better workstation if you are so inclined. For lightweight tasks (I would say most users aren't gamers) they could use Linux over windows. You need a server solution for the home, small business, big business? It's when we get to 'gaming' that Linux falls down. But that's the fault of MS and closed API.

Linux is pretty awesome, you should try out a couple different systems on a thumbdrive. OpenSUSE and Manjaro are currently my favorites, but I use the Crunchbang forks on my netbooks and sometimes Manjaro JWM.

I started on Ubuntu Hardy Heron 2008, and I'm devastated to see the direction Canonical has gone.

Edit: and to Zara, you are exactly correct. I have to maintain a dual-boot or a Windows VM on any Linux machine. That's just reality.

There ARE Linux distros that are designed to work as windows. Mint for example.

"million times better"? That's a pretty bold claim I don't think you could back up with any real evidence.
As for trying out a bunch of different systems - 1., It won't run so well on the thumb drive. I'm going to say "man this OS is so slow, I'll just ditch it and go with something that runs fast." Also, I don't have time to "try" the six different distro's you mentioned in your post, let alone the other distro's that frequently get mentioned. A computer is a tool to get a job done, and if I have to waste time where I could be getting things done figuring out a myriad of different systems just to figure out which one works "best" for me, when 99% of what I need to do is done perfectly well in just one Operating System, why should I bother, unless I am idealogically motivated?
 

heatlesssun

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Extreme advocacy does much more harm than good to the Linux community.

This is indeed a long standing issue and I've said it time and time again, too many pro-desktop Linux folks oversell it. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses and nothing as complex as desktop Linux or Windows are ever going to be completely trouble free over time. Windows isn't perfect but its ecosystem is by far the best on the desktop. Some pro-desktop Linux folks just want to ignore that, even when for decades now they've been told over and over and over "Hey, Linux on the desktop is ok, but where are the apps?" Then it gets into debates over how horrible Microsoft Office is and how you don't need it, LibreOffice all the way, but it that runs fine on Windows. So Linux is a million times better, but Windows runs the apps I use already but I should now dump everything and use this because I could just run LibreOffice on Windows because, oh that's right "spyware." And 20 years ago it was malware.

So the argument is, just dump everything you might be doing, switch over to this million times better OS that's going to require using new applications that run fine in Windows but Windows is fundamentally flawed. Except Windows is already getting the job done well.
 

rgMekanic

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IMO the poblem with Linux, and if they want to get taken seriously, is stop with 94534 distros. Join forces and make 1 or 2 super mega badass windows crushing releases.
 

Snowdog

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So the argument is, just dump everything you might be doing, switch over to this million times better OS that's going to require using new applications that run fine in Windows but Windows is fundamentally flawed. Except Windows is already getting the job done well.

Microsoft has a history of questionable actions, that piss off users and has them questing for alternatives.

I have been there MANY times(I have been happy with Windows 8,10 direction either), but all of my dual boot Linux Setups always end up reverting to pure Windows, as I get tired of swimming against the tide to do a few things on Linux, that I could just as well or better on Windows, and no matter what I still need Windows to do a bunch of other things I can't do on Linux (or can't do well). So eventually, why bother with dual boot and maintaining two OS's when I have one that does everything, and the other only a subset of use cases?

Ultimately an OS is just platform to run your user software (application, games). It's the software that really matters and their is no debate that Windows is ahead by at least an order of magnitude when it comes to available software. That is fact.

So Linux on the Desktop often ends up driven ideological reasons more than practical ones. There are Free crusaders (like Richard Stallman), that are often fighting anything remotely proprietary touching Linux, often to the detriment of getting commercial software on Linux. There are of course the Windows/Microsoft haters, which are evident in the forums.

When the primary reason for Linux on Desktop is ideology, it is no surprise the market share remains VERY low.
 

tetris42

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IMO the poblem with Linux, and if they want to get taken seriously, is stop with 94534 distros. Join forces and make 1 or 2 super mega badass windows crushing releases.
I don't think the number of distros is the real problem as long as there's a go-to distro for the layman that works well. As for Windows-crushing, in terms of OS functionality, I think that's mostly there. Linux needs greater software compatibility + getting put in the hands of new users on new systems. That's pretty much the only way it will break out of the perpetual chicken and egg cycle.
 

rgMekanic

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I don't think the number of distros is the real problem as long as there's a go-to distro for the layman that works well. As for Windows-crushing, in terms of OS functionality, I think that's mostly there. Linux needs greater software compatibility + getting put in the hands of new users on new systems. That's pretty much the only way it will break out of the perpetual chicken and egg cycle.

Agreed to an extent, but you have to look at windows 8 and windows 10.

People hated windows 8.. why? Because shit wasn't where it was supposed to be. X had been in the same place since 3.1 and MS fucked it up with 8. Everyone hated it. 10 (and to a lesser extent 8.1) rolls around, puts shit back where it's familiar/intuitive to people, and they love it(ish)

Thats what Linux needs. If someone goes to get a prebuilt system from dell, gateway, emachines whathaveyou, and they choose Linux as the OS, it should be the same on ALL platforms. That will get people to start trying it, that will give a larger userbase to help newbies to the OS without the "What distro... okay.. what desktop environment?.." type issues, and a larger userbase will cause software companies to start allocating more resources to linux.

Right now there is too many hurdles to jump through, and not enough easy to come by support, if they unified a bit, and started pooling resources to make 1 or 2 badass Debian distros, or Ubuntu distros, they could make something that would get some attention.

I mean ffs if you need this.... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/UbuntuFamilyTree1210.svg

Your shit is too confusing.
 

Zarathustra[H]

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I don't think the number of distros is the real problem as long as there's a go-to distro for the layman that works well. As for Windows-crushing, in terms of OS functionality, I think that's mostly there. Linux needs greater software compatibility + getting put in the hands of new users on new systems. That's pretty much the only way it will break out of the perpetual chicken and egg cycle.


Couldn't agree more. Most people would be fine with Linux if it ran their "must have" software. Software compatibility is the big reason why it doesn't take off. That, and most consumers never install an OS, so it would need to come with typical PC's.
 
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