Feren OS game changer

[ChadD]

Also anyone who things typing commands in terminal, even if they seem easy to you, is easier for a regular user than running a Gui installer they get from a website, has never really had to work with a non techy user. Try telling people to 'run ver in a command prompt to find out the version number', and see how they respond - I'm deliberately using a Windows example to illustrate the point.

Those types of users have ZERO reason to ever use the command line in Linux.

Do you think those are the types of users installing Docker ? If someone installing docker can't figure out some basic instructions on how to install from the companies own Docker repository... perhaps they should find a new line of work coding isn't for them.

BTW your install instructions where for Ubuntu... and seem to be instructions on how to add their own repository first. (which they use hhtps... so they tell you how to do that).

It most distros docker is a supported software already in the database... and frankly one thing I don't like about Ubuntu is all the software projects / companies that think they should bypass the normal ways of doing things with PPAs and secondary repositories. (as perhaps the largest current distro that seems to be a trend). In Arch its click install click remove. (current version in Arch is 17.06... newest windows version I see on their site seems to be 17.04... so I say win for Arch Linux. )

The point I was on about earlier was that the command line isn't rocket science. Its not hard to figure out really... the vast majoirty of users will never ever need it for anything. Still most people can figure it out. Its no harder then it was back when every average user had to deal with Windows 3.1, and MS-DOS as it was just a shell.

Comptuers have gotten easier to use over the years... but perhaps its time we accept a bit more complication into our computing lives. Kids have no issues with this stuff. Learning the Linux command line basics like LS CP MV and the like is a good thing for everyone. Older users that really can't type ver into a windows prompt don't ever need to touch a command line in Linux, cause sure good luck getting them to type uname -a... for everyone else ya why not learn the basics. They also apply to OSX BSD Unix ect... so not bad things to know.

 

[BulletDust]

Comptuers have gotten easier to use over the years... but perhaps its time we accept a bit more complication into our computing lives. Kids have no issues with this stuff. Learning the Linux command line basics like LS CP MV and the like is a good thing for everyone. Older users that really can't type ver into a windows prompt don't ever need to touch a command line in Linux, cause sure good luck getting them to type uname -a... for everyone else ya why not learn the basics. They also apply to OSX BSD Unix ect... so not bad things to know.

The constant need to make things simpler is the reason why a socially engineered payload is so easy to release, resulting in massive issues like WannaCry - Imagine if there was no kill switch?

 

[MrCrispy]

Computing has not gotten easy enough. Its why so many people use iPad's as primary computing device, because for their needs (email, browsing, facebook) it is plenty good enough. And their browser usage isn't the same as someone on this forum would expect (ad blocker, dozens of tabs, extensions).

There is plenty of scope for things to get simpler. ls/cp/uname/aptor indeed any cmd line on any OS is not a 'basic', its not the most ideal interface and it certainly shouldn't be required - its just what we are all used to and we don't know any other way.

 

[ChadD]

Computing has not gotten easy enough. Its why so many people use iPad's as primary computing device, because for their needs (email, browsing, facebook) it is plenty good enough. And their browser usage isn't the same as someone on this forum would expect (ad blocker, dozens of tabs, extensions).

There is plenty of scope for things to get simpler. ls/cp/uname/aptor indeed any cmd line on any OS is not a 'basic', its not the most ideal interface and it certainly shouldn't be required - its just what we are all used to and we don't know any other way.

I keep hearing this required bit though... and I will once again call BS.

There is no more need to use the command line in Linux then there is to run services.msc or msconfig or regedit in windows.

I find it an interesting double standard that many Windows people have no issues suggesting "regular" users fix windows issues running those tools which improperly used can completely F someones computer. Yet suggesting someone pop open a terminal to do something basic like edit a specific piece of softwares conf file (which can do nothing worse then mess with their settings in that one piece of software) is somehow crazy talk.

In those same types of windows help sections I read people suggesting complete GPU driver removals... downloading third party tools to ensure they are really really gone.. before downloading massive 150mb driver downloads installing them as Admin ect, yet if I suggest;
sudo apt-get purge nvidia
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa
sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install nvidia-381 nvidia-settings
Reboot
Clearly I am speaking some arcane Linux neck beard only black magic bs. Never mind that what I just described with a very small bit of explanation is 1000% more logical to most noobies then all the crap involved with windows drivers. Sudo to give yourself admin... apt-get to get software... purge nvidia to remove old driver from build library... add the PPA (personal package archive) yes that makes sense to even noobies. Update your system & install nvidia drivers & install nvidia settings program.

Anyway long response... but simple point. Linux command line is no more required then the crazy windows tools experienced windows people seem to assume are logical and easy to use by inexperienced windows users cause they have buttons they can click. (never mind that one wrong click and their system is pouched... you know how hard it is to type a command that would kill your machine ) Linux command line is the way most experienced Linux people suggest people go to fix basic issues... cause its you know FASTER, better, and really is very logical for new users.

 

[BulletDust]

Computing has not gotten easy enough. Its why so many people use iPad's as primary computing device, because for their needs (email, browsing, facebook) it is plenty good enough. And their browser usage isn't the same as someone on this forum would expect (ad blocker, dozens of tabs, extensions).

There is plenty of scope for things to get simpler. ls/cp/uname/aptor indeed any cmd line on any OS is not a 'basic', its not the most ideal interface and it certainly shouldn't be required - its just what we are all used to and we don't know any other way.

So what you're basically implying is that we should make Windows like iOS and stop the masses installing software from anything outside a Windows app store, like Windows 10S - And basically, if you want to believe that Windows is all about straightforward simplicity and everything should clone Windows, I couldn't agree more.

As realistically the only way to create the simplicity you're describing without sacrificing security is to lock Windows down to something like Windows 10S, as the masses are so good at installing software that they install viruses, malware and worms more efficiently than anything else available under the Windows ecosystem.

The method Linux uses for the installation of software is in no way difficult, I have provided evidence of this. Bear in mind that if your heavily opposed to anything that is not a block with buttons saying 'ok', 'ok', 'no', 'yes', 'apply', 'install', 'no don't restart now' - You're always free to stick with Windows as it's obviously more suitable for yourself and your needs.

Bear in mind however that the reference to an ipad and the simplistic needs of the masses actually paints Linux in the perfect light - As the needs of the masses can totally and utterly be downloaded via the bundled Software Centre with absolute security and simplicity - Your Docker example is actually a really bad example considering the masses and their needs!

 

[ManofGod]

So what you're basically implying is that we should make Windows like iOS and stop the masses installing software from anything outside a Windows app store, like Windows 10S - And basically, if you want to believe that Windows is all about straightforward simplicity and everything should clone Windows, I couldn't agree more.

As realistically the only way to create the simplicity you're describing without sacrificing security is to lock Windows down to something like Windows 10S, as the masses are so good at installing software that they install viruses, malware and worms more efficiently than anything else available under the Windows ecosystem.

The method Linux uses for the installation of software is in no way difficult, I have provided evidence of this. Bear in mind that if your heavily opposed to anything that is not a block with buttons saying 'ok', 'ok', 'no', 'yes', 'apply', 'install', 'no don't restart now' - You're always free to stick with Windows as it's obviously more suitable for yourself and your needs.

Bear in mind however that the reference to an ipad and the simplistic needs of the masses actually paints Linux in the perfect light - As the needs of the masses can totally and utterly be downloaded via the bundled Software Centre with absolute security and simplicity - Your Docker example is actually a really bad example considering the masses and their needs!

I read his post: Cleary, you did not. What you just finished saying has zero to do with what he said but then again, you already knew that. Computing is not really as simple as it could be on PC's which is a reason some use the iPad as their primary computing device.

 

[ChadD]

I read his post: Cleary, you did not. What you just finished saying has zero to do with what he said but then again, you already knew that. Computing is not really as simple as it could be on PC's which is a reason some use the iPad as their primary computing device.

And here I thought it was because they where the size of a piece of paper, not much thicker, not much heavier and could do all the things many folk care about while they sit on the can.

I learn something new everyday I guess. Hmmm easier, sure I guess that could be someones reason.

 

[Simmonz]

The constant need to make things simpler is the reason why a socially engineered payload is so easy to release, resulting in massive issues like WannaCry - Imagine if there was no kill switch?

I agree. Things don't have to get simpler, people have to get smarter. There are soooo many people out there unwillling to put in even a minimum of effort in when it comes to anything to do with their computer. If they don't wanna learn then fuck em. Every day I have to hear from people crap like "but I had an antivirus program, how did I get a virus ?" or "what do you mean my files can't be recovered ?" when they could have backed them up at any time. I would love a purge society some days only I don't want to hunt poor people but stupid people.

 

[heatlesssun]

I think we're all fairly well versed in the launching of VR, I actually posted a thread regarding this update in the Linux forums last night. The fact you're deliberately avoiding is that you are not running SteamOS, so Steam is a software application in your scenario requiring the use of an OS to run - When you logged into that PC you interacted with the UI of that OS, the OS is therefore not invisible and a large, important and integral part of PC usage.

I'm using Windows Hello on my sig rig with facial recognition so I don't have to type anything to log on. From a cold boot to launching Steam is one click and starting Steam VR is another. Yeah, there are some steps to set up all of this but as far interacting with the OS to game under normal circumstances it's just a couple of clicks, hardly anything so deeply connected to the OS as to some unique experience to Windows. Windows Hello is and whatever people think of it, it actually reduces manual interaction with the OS.

Depending on personal usage cases. As I keep hammering home, you constantly overstate the importance of Windows regarding the masses - I am not going to explain this to you again. In this day and age a realistic alternative now exists in comparison to Windows considering personal usage.

Not at all. I've long said that if one just needs to browse the web casual they have no need for a PC. However it's impossible to generalize what 1.5 billion PC users do. No one is fully aware of what that many people do with devices that can be as complex as Windows PCs.

Steam is an application, in your case steam is by no means a stand alone OS. I'm struggling to comprehend how you can't grasp this concept, my only conclusion is that you are deliberately avoiding admitting this simple fact.

I understand perfectly. People work and play inside of applications NOT the OS. That's what you don't seem to get. The reason I can't use desktop Linux as a client host isn't because of the OS itself, it's because of those applications that I work and play in. And yeah, the masses only need Chrome for web browsing. I get that. Those folks don't need a desktop OS PERIOD.

And yet it still requires an OS to run. I can see that you're attempting to highlight that I know nothing about VR, it's not working.

It requires and OS that supports the applications and hardware to run, the very definition of an OSes function. So what's your point?

And yet Chrome is not, in this case, a stand alone OS. The OS is a very real, large, integral and important part of PC usage. It is not invisible and therefore absolutely cannot be ignored. It is the UI by which the user interacts with the machine on a basic level, VR or not.

Again the very definition of an OS is to support applications and hardware running on that OS and it's that hardware and applications where people spend their time. Sure there copying files and changing settings and installing software and updates but that's a small part of using any device for most people. The most important experiences are above the OS layer and as long as that OS supports what people want they aren't thinking about the OS.

So does Linux, all that matters is whether the OS supports an individuals personal usage case and this is where you constantly overstate the necessity of Windows in modern computing. I've also used and been trained/incredibly involved with a vast number of computing devices/operating systems over the last 35 years, not too sure on the relevance of such a point though?

All I've said is that Windows has by far the best desktop OS ecosystem. Of what importance that is depends on the user.

Not at all, I just live and work in the real world with real PC users. I don't praise Microsoft in a situation where they don't deserve it. Your experience regarding Linux users is totally a result of your own attitude and context in discussions. If you were in front of me talking about the sky with an attitude like the one portrayed here my own attitude and therefore the outcome of the discussion would be exactly the same.

I call a spade a spade.

Again Windows has by far the best desktop OS ecosystem. That's a fact. If one doesn't care about or need that ecosystem then there are alternatives.

VR applications are a software application running on top of the OS, the UI ised to interact with the machine, a large, important and integral part of PC usage that cannot be ignored - I am repeating this over and over for a very good reason.

And where it works under Linux, Steam VR works the same in Windows as well? You keep repeating about all of this UI interaction which is a couple of button clicks?

Why are you so opposed to people using Linux as opposed to Windows?

Because I'm not. You say I overstate the importance of the Windows ecosystem, ok. I simply think that's FAR more important than the OS itself because it's the hardware and applications that fulfill the needs of users day to day.

If you think I'm exaggerating the usefulness of Linux as a user of a great many operating systems you couldn't be more wrong.

The usefulness of an end user OS goes as far it's hardware and software support.

It's like you personally take offence to the fact not everyone sings the praises of Microsoft where praises are not deserved?

I'm not praising anything. I just have said these are the things I do and Linux has iffy support for a lot of it. Your point is that most people don't need all that stuff and I agree. But no one can fully anticipate everyone's needs, life happens. Maybe someone wants to get into video editing and start a YouTube channel. Or get into coding or gaming or 3D printing or VR or whatever. In terms of PCs, Windows is almost guaranteed to have the best support for what people want to do because of it's large installment base.

 

[Chuklr]

I agree. Things don't have to get simpler, people have to get smarter. There are soooo many people out there unwillling to put in even a minimum of effort in when it comes to anything to do with their computer. If they don't wanna learn then fuck em. Every day I have to hear from people crap like "but I had an antivirus program, how did I get a virus ?" or "what do you mean my files can't be recovered ?" when they could have backed them up at any time. I would love a purge society some days only I don't want to hunt poor people but stupid people.

What a great idea! Have an intelligence test to determine if a person can use a computer! Then if they fail the test exterminate them! s/

 

[Simmonz]

What a great idea! Have an intelligence test to determine if a person can use a computer! Then if they fail the test exterminate them! s/

Anybody who deals with people all day can't deny there's a prt of them that most days would love to do this. If you don't have that part you must be the most patient person in ther world or on some very good drugs. Plus my beef is with the stupid people who are lazy. if you're stupid but making an effort I can live with that.

 

[Chuklr]

Anybody who deals with people all day can't deny there's a prt of them that most days would love to do this. If you don't have that part you must be the most patient person in ther world or on some very good drugs. Plus my beef is with the stupid people who are lazy. if you're stupid but making an effort I can live with that.

I am a very patient person and I always think before I click send. Besides it's those lazy stupid people who keep computer techs and their shops in business.

 

[Simmonz]

I am a very patient person and I always think before I click send. Besides it's those lazy stupid people who keep computer techs and their shops in business.

I am one of those techs. Been building and fixing systems since 2003 although only just over the last 7 years professionally.

 

[BulletDust]

'm using Windows Hello on my sig rig with facial recognition so I don't have to type anything to log on. From a cold boot to launching Steam is one click and starting Steam VR is another. Yeah, there are some steps to set up all of this but as far interacting with the OS to game under normal circumstances it's just a couple of clicks, hardly anything so deeply connected to the OS as to some unique experience to Windows. Windows Hello is and whatever people think of it, it actually reduces manual interaction with the OS.

Windows Hello runs on top of an operating system, that operating system is not invisable, it is a large, integral and important part of the user experience and is the UI by which the user interacts with the machine. Windows Hello is but a software application running on top of the operating system destined to be largely adopted by few. But you know this, you're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative in some vain attempt to prove a point.

Not at all. I've long said that if one just needs to browse the web casual they have no need for a PC. However it's impossible to generalize what 1.5 billion PC users do. No one is fully aware of what that many people do with devices that can be as complex as Windows PCs.

Rest assured 1.5 billion people aren't playing with VR. Naturally your rebuttal is going to be that VR statistics are comparable to Linux statistics, realistically it's indisputable that there is absolutely no way whatsoever to accurately measure Linux usage as it is not sold in retail channels, but VR is sold in retail channels so we know the usage statistics of VR down to the decimal point.

All this focus on VR, it is slightly amusing.

I understand perfectly. People work and play inside of applications NOT the OS. That's what you don't seem to get. The reason I can't use desktop Linux as a client host isn't because of the OS itself, it's because of those applications that I work and play in. And yeah, the masses only need Chrome for web browsing. I get that. Those folks don't need a desktop OS PERIOD.

People interface with the OS, don't pretend like the OS doesn't exist in a vain attempt to substantiate your claim. Without the OS the applications would not run, you know this and I'm far from stupid! Why keep chanting this bullshit rhetoric when you know only too well that it's ridiculous?

Naturally an old computing device like a PDP 10 runs an OS that's naturally capable of launching software applications - I can assure you that if you sat the masses in front of a PDP 10 they'd notice that the OS was vastly different to what they're used to. Let it go, this argument of yours that the OS is invisible to the masses is ridiculous.

It requires and OS that supports the applications and hardware to run, the very definition of an OSes function. So what's your point?

Which Linux does, in beta form as VR has been available under Linux for a fraction of the time it has been available under Windows and presents a whole new set of challenges to overcome - Which in itself is perfectly normal and not at all surprising. But make no mistake, the masses aren't going to be interfacing with their PC's using bulky, cabled vertigo inducing headsets anytime soon.

Again the very definition of an OS is to support applications and hardware running on that OS and it's that hardware and applications where people spend their time. Sure there copying files and changing settings and installing software and updates but that's a small part of using any device for most people. The most important experiences are above the OS layer and as long as that OS supports what people want they aren't thinking about the OS.

And Linux supports vastly more applications and hardware that you, in your narrow minded wisdom, give it credit for - You constantly vastly overstate the necessity of Windows considering the realistic needs of the masses in modern computing, it's not the 90's anymore.

All I've said is that Windows has by far the best desktop OS ecosystem. Of what importance that is depends on the user.

All based on individual use case, probably ~75% of those usage cases are very, very simplistic and do not require an infected casspool of an OS like Windows - I've had clients that I've successfully switched full time to an Android tablet and a keyboard dock, they love it and they no longer have to deal with viruses and malware.

Again Windows has by far the best desktop OS ecosystem. That's a fact. If one doesn't care about or need that ecosystem then there are alternatives.

Not at all, the best ecosystem is the one that suits the users needs and wants with the best security and reliability with a minimum of inconvenience - That's purely based on personal use case. Once again, you vastly overstate the importance of Windows in modern computing due to your constant need to project your own niche wants and needs onto the masses. See the Android example above.

nd where it works under Linux, Steam VR works the same in Windows as well? You keep repeating about all of this UI interaction which is a couple of button clicks?

And yet on a basic level you're still interacting with a UI called an operating system! SteamVR with all it's magical usefulness is but an application running on top of the OS! Your twisted argument is no different to claiming that Kodi is an OS as it provides an interactive skin, we all know this is not the case and to make such a point would be downright laughable! You're arguing for the sake of arguing now, you know damn well you've failed to substantiate your point and you're back up against the wall holding up the VR shield again.

Because I'm not. You say I overstate the importance of the Windows ecosystem, ok. I simply think that's FAR more important than the OS itself because it's the hardware and applications that fulfill the needs of users day to day.

Except in the majority of cases it can be comfortably assumed that the masses don't need Windows to fulfil their wants/needs when it comes to computing, Windows is just the option forced onto them due to the fact that it's bundled with their OEM PC/Laptop - A fact that in itself does not substantiate any case that Windows is what's best for the masses.

The usefulness of an end user OS goes as far it's hardware and software support.

And you constantly overstate the need for Windows in this regard and understate the practicality of Linux in this modern day and age, not somewhere back in the 90's.

'm not praising anything. I just have said these are the things I do and Linux has iffy support for a lot of it. Your point is that most people don't need all that stuff and I agree. But no one can fully anticipate everyone's needs, life happens. Maybe someone wants to get into video editing and start a YouTube channel. Or get into coding or gaming or 3D printing or VR or whatever. In terms of PCs, Windows is almost guaranteed to have the best support for what people want to do because of it's large installment base.

I edit video's just fine under Linux and there's coders out there that would smash the argument of the necessity to code under Windows to bits! See how you assume wasteland? In your opinion Linux offers nothing in terms of desktop computing, it's a wasteland and everyone absolutely needs Adobe products and MS office suites - The harsh reality is that this couldn't be further from the truth.

If Linux supports my wants/needs just fine as a high end PC user and business owner than I can assure you, it's got the masses more than covered.

I don't know just why you're so heavily against Linux as a desktop OS? Competition benefits everyone, including Windows users - Yet if you had your way we'd live in a world that was purely Windows, MS Office, Adobe products, DX12 and Vive because you somehow honestly believe that Microsoft's monopolisation due to underhanded OEM deals is a good thing! So odd?

...Shall we go again?

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows Hello runs on top of an operating system, that operating system is not invisable, it is a large, integral and important part of the user experience and is the UI by which the user interacts with the machine. Windows Hello is but a software application running on top of the operating system destined to be largely adopted by few. But you know this, you're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative in some vain attempt to prove a point.

Of course the OS provides the necessary services to power the hardware and software that runs on it but yes much of that is invisible and much of the UI is common across platforms. The point of something like Windows Hello is to REMOVE manual interaction and require no conventional UI interaction beyond reading text messages on screen guiding the user through the process. It wouldn't be from an end user standpoint any different on any operating system. You look at the camera and you're logged in. It's just that simple.

Rest assured 1.5 billion people aren't playing with VR. Naturally your rebuttal is going to be that VR statistics are comparable to Linux statistics, realistically it's indisputable that there is absolutely no way whatsoever to accurately measure Linux usage as it is not sold in retail channels, but VR is sold in retail channels so we know the usage statistics of VR down to the decimal point.

I have no idea what all 1.5 billion people are doing with devices that can be as complex as Windows PCs and neither do you. Of course there are common things like web browsers and media playback. But there are countless other things.

All this focus on VR, it is slightly amusing.

VR/AR to me are the most interesting emerging technologies out there right now. It's far more interesting that desktop operating systems.

People interface with the OS, don't pretend like the OS doesn't exist in a vain attempt to substantiate your claim. Without the OS the applications would not run, you know this and I'm far from stupid! Why keep chanting this bullshit rhetoric when you know only too well that it's ridiculous?

I never said operating systems were unimportant, I said they are irrelevant to end users because end user experiences are with hardware and software supported by that OS. If you're struggling with Windows Updates, that's NOT USING Windows. If you're spending hours trying to make a VR setup under Linux, that's NOT USING Linux. Those are both examples of dealing with the failings of technology, not it's actual use.

Naturally an old computing device like a PDP 10 runs an OS that's naturally capable of launching software applications - I can assure you that if you sat the masses in front of a PDP 10 they'd notice that the OS was vastly different to what they're used to. Let it go, this argument of yours that the OS is invisible to the masses is ridiculous.

Well duh, people might notice using a 50 year old computer. No person would begin to notice that kind of difference, perhaps none at all, clicking on the icon to launch Chrome in either Windows or Linux. Indeed pro-desktop Linux users love to taught how simple most things these days and that in many ways just clicking on stuff and going about one's merry way is no differenent than Windows and that's there's no need to go to a terminal window for basic tasks in Linux.

Which Linux does, in beta form as VR has been available under Linux for a fraction of the time it has been available under Windows and presents a whole new set of challenges to overcome - Which in itself is perfectly normal and not at all surprising. But make no mistake, the masses aren't going to be interfacing with their PC's using bulky, cabled vertigo inducing headsets anytime soon.

Windows VR is only 14 months old in consumer form. So give Linux 14 months to catch up? The masses don't build gaming PCs, which a lot of folks do here. There's still a lot of industry that caters to that crowd. Niche is nothing new with PCs but it does drive a lot stuff.

And Linux supports vastly more applications and hardware that you, in your narrow minded wisdom, give it credit for - You constantly vastly overstate the necessity of Windows considering the realistic needs of the masses in modern computing, it's not the 90's anymore.

These conversations are always about the desktop. Sure Android phones run a Linux kernel, and how many Android phones are running Feren?

All based on individual use case, probably ~75% of those usage cases are very, very simplistic and do not require an infected casspool of an OS like Windows - I've had clients that I've successfully switched full time to an Android tablet and a keyboard dock, they love it and they no longer have to deal with viruses and malware.

You fix computers for a living so you see a lot of crap. No one comes to you with perfectly functioning Windows hardware. It'd be pretty tough to run tons of niche stuff that sucks up computing resources if at the same time I was dealing with all of that cesspool.

Not at all, the best ecosystem is the one that suits the users needs and wants with the best security and reliability with a minimum of inconvenience - That's purely based on personal use case. Once again, you vastly overstate the importance of Windows in modern computing due to your constant need to project your own niche wants and needs onto the masses. See the Android example above.

Something struck me the other day about this. My birthday was Tuesday and my sister got me a Steam Wallet Card. She asked. Never had seen one before. On the back of that card the title says this:

Add money to your Steam Wallet and enjoy all of your favorite PC, Mac, and Linux games.

Think about what this is saying for a moment. It struck me instantly because I've said forever that for all practical purposes PC gaming is Windows gaming and apparently Valve agrees with me. And that's what you call a dominate ecosystem.

And yet on a basic level you're still interacting with a UI called an operating system! SteamVR with all it's magical usefulness is but an application running on top of the OS! Your twisted argument is no different to claiming that Kodi is an OS as it provides an interactive skin, we all know this is not the case and to make such a point would be downright laughable! You're arguing for the sake of arguing now, you know damn well you've failed to substantiate your point and you're back up against the wall holding up the VR shield again.

What? All I'm saying is that users live in applications, not the operating system. VR so removes one from the operating system generally that the OS, while supporting the platform, simply isn't involved in the experience unless that experience is projecting the OS into VR. Steam VR does that for Windows and there are VR apps that do it as well, allow you use the OS in VR. Not my cup of tea because desktop OSes, they've totally don't work with VR at they were never designed for that purpose.

Except in the majority of cases it can be comfortably assumed that the masses don't need Windows to fulfil their wants/needs when it comes to computing,

Have I ever argued this point with you? Nope. If all one needs is Chrome then obviously. If you have basic computing needs you don't need a desktop OS period. Not Windows, Linux or a macOS.

Windows is just the option forced onto them due to the fact that it's bundled with their OEM PC/Laptop - A fact that in itself does not substantiate any case that Windows is what's best for the masses.

Again, never have argued this. But when that PC doesn't run the PC software that Valve said it would (refer to my earlier point about even how Valve labels Windows) tons of confusion. We saw it with Windows RT. Windows S has the same issue though not locked into the Windows Store necessarily. To a lot of folks a PC means everything Windows can do. And like I said, you better have a conversation with Valve over the labeling on the back of their Steam Wallet cards before blasting me.

And you constantly overstate the need for Windows in this regard and understate the practicality of Linux in this modern day and age, not somewhere back in the 90's.

Nope. I've said repeatedly that if Linux works for people use it. Just don't try to make it out like Linux, in your own words, is a Windows clone and has the same support.

I edit video's just fine under Linux and there's coders out there that would smash the argument of the necessity to code under Windows to bits! See how you assume wasteland? In your opinion Linux offers nothing in terms of desktop computing, it's a wasteland and everyone absolutely needs Adobe products and MS office suites - The harsh reality is that this couldn't be further from the truth.

And whatever video software you use runs probably fine under Windows. With tons of other options for Windows not available under Linux.

If Linux supports my wants/needs just fine as a high end PC user and business owner than I can assure you, it's got the masses more than covered.

And again, I've never argued this. Except when those masses realize why even Valve doesn't consider a PC running Linux a PC.

I don't know just why you're so heavily against Linux as a desktop OS? Competition benefits everyone, including Windows users - Yet if you had your way we'd live in a world that was purely Windows, MS Office, Adobe products, DX12 and Vive because you somehow honestly believe that Microsoft's monopolisation due to underhanded OEM deals is a good thing! So odd?

...Shall we go again?

Just because I see things from a different perspective doesn't mean I'm against Linux. I am against how it's been oversold over the years and I think that's done as much as anything to hurt it's adoption. You say repeatedly that Linux isn't a Windows clone yet at every turn try to make it one, at least when it comes to it's greatest strength. Desktop Linux simply doesn't have the numbers to get the support of Windows. That's how this industry has always worked. Even if Linux is objectively superior, who the hell is even going to touch VR development for Linux with the attitudes people like you have?

 

[BulletDust]

Of course the OS provides the necessary services to power the hardware and software that runs on it but yes much of that is invisible and much of the UI is common across platforms. The point of something like Windows Hello is to REMOVE manual interaction and require no conventional UI interaction beyond reading text messages on screen guiding the user through the process. It wouldn't be from an end user standpoint any different on any operating system. You look at the camera and you're logged in. It's just that simple.

Windows Hello and the fact that the Windows UI is sadly common across platforms in no implies that the OS is invisible to the user, once again, arguing for the sake of arguing?! When Microsoft forced Windows 10 onto the consumer using underhanded tactics I can assure you people consciously noticed that they were no longer running Windows 7! To state that the OS is invisible to the consumer and therefore not a consideration is blatantly retarded! No matter what rooftop you attempt to sing the praises of VR from, Windows Hello is not going to become the basis that the masses use to navigate their PC until that hot, bulky, cabled, expensive, nauseating headset becomes as light as a pair of glasses with no nausea and cabling.

The odds of that happening any time soon are very unlikely.

I have no idea what all 1.5 billion people are doing with devices that can be as complex as Windows PCs and neither do you. Of course there are common things like web browsers and media playback. But there are countless other things.

It can safely be assumed beyond all doubt that they're surfing the web, reading emails, responding to emails, opening PDF's, scanning, printing, watching YouTube, replying to FB posts, typing up letters, creating spreadsheets and doing bookwork - All of which is more than covered by Linux. As stated, I'm an advanced PC user and I don't need Windows in the slightest.

Awaiting bullshit VR response.

VR/AR to me are the most interesting emerging technologies out there right now. It's far more interesting that desktop operating systems.

Good for you! Personally I find every aspect of PC usage interesting and I constantly push myself to learn new things as opposed to simply playing games at close to 50 years of age. I'd rather laugh with my daughter by degrading myself to a game of Roblox so we can enjoy gaming together as opposed to sitting by myself in front of a PC playing a game simply because it's supposedly AAA with pretty graphics. Don't get me wrong, I still know all about gaming and it's something that still interests me, but as a fully grown adult I don't have the time I used to to devote to a bullshit number of titles that I'll most likely never even play - I focus on the important titles that really grab my interests and i can play most of those under Linux.

I never said operating systems were unimportant, I said they are irrelevant to end users because end user experiences are with hardware and software supported by that OS. If you're struggling with Windows Updates, that's NOT USING Windows. If you're spending hours trying to make a VR setup under Linux, that's NOT USING Linux. Those are both examples of dealing with the failings of technology, not it's actual use.

Biggest load of rubbish I ever read! How is dealing with Microsoft's flawed updating system not using Windows! It's certainly not using Linux or macOS!

Windows 10 has glaring issues that piss users off, if Linux is an alternative and can achieve everything a user demands out of their PC while sacrificing only a handful of games, that's a win in many cases. Your biased opinion does little to change that fact.

Well duh, people might notice using a 50 year old computer. No person would begin to notice that kind of difference, perhaps none at all, clicking on the icon to launch Chrome in either Windows or Linux. Indeed pro-desktop Linux users love to taught how simple most things these days and that in many ways just clicking on stuff and going about one's merry way is no different than Windows and that's there's no need to go to a terminal window for basic tasks in Linux.

Once again, the OS is visible enough that people are over the glaring issues with Windows 10 and are looking for alternatives - This is a fact that cannot be argued. If the OS was as invisible to the end user as you try to claim, familiarisation would not be an issue in the slightest: Further substantiating a case for desktop Linux.

indows VR is only 14 months old in consumer form. So give Linux 14 months to catch up? The masses don't build gaming PCs, which a lot of folks do here. There's still a lot of industry that caters to that crowd. Niche is nothing new with PCs but it does drive a lot stuff.

Linux presents a whole new set of issues, who knows how long it will take Linux to catch up? Fact is that development is quite obviously ongoing and VR may die out before both platforms fully mature as I don't see the masses going for hot, heavy, cabled, nauseating VR goggles anytime soon. No matter what the outcome VR development under Windows has been going on far longer than 14 bloody months! (hence your consumer form disclaimer).

These conversations are always about the desktop. Sure Android phones run a Linux kernel, and how many Android phones are running Feren?

I hope no phones are running Feren as it was a flawed idea from the beginning. The point of highlighting Android as a viable daily driver OS for the masses was to point out just how much you overstate the importance of Windows in modern computing when the masses can get by just fine literally using Android as a desktop OS with better security and less hassles. Trying to shift the goalposts by twisting the point into an argument about Feren isn't going to change anything.

There's people out there running no more than iOS devices, a product that's literally no more than an app launcher! And they have fewer complaints than literally any other users out there.

You fix computers for a living so you see a lot of crap. No one comes to you with perfectly functioning Windows hardware. It'd be pretty tough to run tons of niche stuff that sucks up computing resources if at the same time I was dealing with all of that cesspool.

But this isn't about you, your PC, your graphics cards, your SSD's or your VR headset - This is about modern computing on varying platforms for the masses and how Windows is no longer a necessity anymore.

Something struck me the other day about this. My birthday was Tuesday and my sister got me a Steam Wallet Card. She asked. Never had seen one before. On the back of that card the title says this:

Add money to your Steam Wallet and enjoy all of your favorite PC, Mac, and Linux games.

Think about what this is saying for a moment. It struck me instantly because I've said forever that for all practical purposes PC gaming is Windows gaming and apparently Valve agrees with me. And that's what you call a dominate ecosystem.

Oh my God, whatever.

What? All I'm saying is that users live in applications, not the operating system. VR so removes one from the operating system generally that the OS, while supporting the platform, simply isn't involved in the experience unless that experience is projecting the OS into VR. Steam VR does that for Windows and there are VR apps that do it as well, allow you use the OS in VR. Not my cup of tea because desktop OSes, they've totally don't work with VR at they were never designed for that purpose.

Who cares? the OS is still needed to launch VR and no ones going to type up a letter in VR!

VR, VR, VR....! It's all we hear from you about a technology in it's absolute infancy! Give it a rest! I'm so sick of hearing about bloody VR.

Have I ever argued this point with you? Nope. If all one needs is Chrome then obviously. If you have basic computing needs you don't need a desktop OS period. Not Windows, Linux or a macOS.

Which pretty much sums up the masses and their computing requirements - The needs of the masses are so obviously uncomplicated that it's a usage case that literally can be assumed.

Again, never have argued this. But when that PC doesn't run the PC software that Valve said it would (refer to my earlier point about even how Valve labels Windows) tons of confusion. We saw it with Windows RT. Windows S has the same issue though not locked into the Windows Store necessarily. To a lot of folks a PC means everything Windows can do. And like I said, you better have a conversation with Valve over the labeling on the back of their Steam Wallet cards before blasting me.

I fail to see how Steam's lax hardware requirement labelling substantiates a case for Windows! Are you honestly trying to claim that Steam are useless so stick with Windows as Windows has you covered!

Oh my God, your arguments are so....Fickle.

Nope. I've said repeatedly that if Linux works for people use it. Just don't try to make it out like Linux, in your own words, is a Windows clone and has the same support.

Lol! Pissed myself! When the hell did I in any way claim that Linux was a Windows clone! In this very thread I have stated the polar opposite! If Windows works for you, stick to Windows as us Linux users don't want to listen to your whining when you don't have a box with 'cancel', 'OK', and 'next' to click when installing software! Please, to anyone in this situation, stick to Windows!

And whatever video software you use runs probably fine under Windows. With tons of other options for Windows not available under Linux.

Like shovelware! Once the basics are covered, the rest is fairly redundant. Professionals may require the use of certain packages and if that's the case, please stick to Windows.

The vast software base under Linux allows you to achieve literally anything anyone would want to use a PC for.

And again, I've never argued this. Except when those masses realize why even Valve doesn't consider a PC running Linux a PC.

Once again, oh my God, are you serious? What a childish argument.

Just because I see things from a different perspective doesn't mean I'm against Linux. I am against how it's been oversold over the years and I think that's done as much as anything to hurt it's adoption. You say repeatedly that Linux isn't a Windows clone yet at every turn try to make it one, at least when it comes to it's greatest strength. Desktop Linux simply doesn't have the numbers to get the support of Windows. That's how this industry has always worked. Even if Linux is objectively superior, who the hell is even going to touch VR development for Linux with the attitudes people like you have?

No one's overselling Linux, you're simply misinformed and lacking experience in the OS and overstating the importance of Windows in modern computing - The fact is, with so many options available to the consumer, Windows just isn't absolutely necessary anymore.

And I'm not interested in you trying to justify your Linux usage as reading your posts it's so blatantly obvious just how green you are when it comes to anything but Windows.

Give it a rest.

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows Hello and the fact that the Windows UI is sadly common across platforms in no implies that the OS is invisible to the user, once again, arguing for the sake of arguing?!

I'm just not sure what UI you are referring to when all one has to do is look at a camera to login using Windows Hello. The point of biometric interfaces is that there's no traditional computer UI involved. What part of looking into a camera to login would have any UI differences between Windows and Linux if such a thing existed on Linux? None.

When Microsoft forced Windows 10 onto the consumer using underhanded tactics I can assure you people consciously noticed that they were no longer running Windows 7!

I guarantee you some didn't. You think everyone is perfectly aware of operating systems at some level. Well, nope. Not saying people didn't see the change I'm just saying that many people may have seen the change and had no idea about the change in the OS. You seem to related EVERYTHING back to some user awareness of the operating system. That's just not the case.

To state that the OS is invisible to the consumer and therefore not a consideration is blatantly retarded!

How many of the masses as you call them could state what OS and version they were using on any device they used?

No matter what rooftop you attempt to sing the praises of VR from, Windows Hello is not going to become the basis that the masses use to navigate their PC until that hot, bulky, cabled, expensive, nauseating headset becomes as light as a pair of glasses with no nausea and cabling.

Windows Hello has nothing to do with VR. And the masses would never buy 10 core CPUs that work with Linux as well.

It can safely be assumed beyond all doubt that they're surfing the web, reading emails, responding to emails, opening PDF's, scanning, printing, watching YouTube, replying to FB posts, typing up letters, creating spreadsheets and doing bookwork - All of which is more than covered by Linux. As stated, I'm an advanced PC user and I don't need Windows in the slightest.

Accept a lot of that isn't covered by Linux. No Acrobat and no Microsoft Office. Those are gaps in Linux and telling people how incompatible Microsoft Office is with LibreOffice which the masses never heard of isn't that convincing.

Good for you! Personally I find every aspect of PC usage interesting and I constantly push myself to learn new things as opposed to simply playing games at close to 50 years of age.

Games can be very challenging in their own right. My starship just blew up because I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do in Star Trek Bridge Crew. Games aren't just toys and diversions, they can often require the use of a lot skill and thought and judgement.

Biggest load of rubbish I ever read! How is dealing with Microsoft's flawed updating system not using Windows! It's certainly not using Linux or macOS!

Fixing a flat tire isn't driving one's car. You can't possibly be using anything if you're constantly fixing technical faults by definition.

Windows 10 has glaring issues that piss users off, if Linux is an alternative and can achieve everything a user demands out of their PC while sacrificing only a handful of games, that's a win in many cases. Your biased opinion does little to change that fact.

And again, I've never argued otherwise. The difference in our opinions on this is just exactly what 1.5 billion are doing. And you have not better idea about that than me. If all they do is surf the web on a PC then Linux is more than viable. You talk about the masses and how VR is hot and heavy and don't use it but hey, you know that the masses just need the basics. They'll never want to explore or do new things beyond your conception on them.

Once again, the OS is visible enough that people are over the glaring issues with Windows 10 and are looking for alternatives - This is a fact that cannot be argued. If the OS was as invisible to the end user as you try to claim, familiarisation would not be an issue in the slightest: Further substantiating a case for desktop Linux.

I'm also looking for alternatives with far more recourses and ability to do so than the masses, I even have a 250 SSD installed in my sig with Linux Mint 18.1 Serena on it's own drive. I mean it's kind of comical to me that you're always encouraging people to "put Linux on a spare drive or partition" and I'm this big Microsoft shill that actually does it. But I also realize the masses don't tend to spare drives or partitions around or go into BIOS often to change boot order. I just get a huge kick out of that. And of course anything plugged into this kind of hardware, Linux folks are beyond less than helpful.

Linux presents a whole new set of issues, who knows how long it will take Linux to catch up? Fact is that development is quite obviously ongoing and VR may die out before both platforms fully mature as I don't see the masses going for hot, heavy, cabled, nauseating VR goggles anytime soon. No matter what the outcome VR development under Windows has been going on far longer than 14 bloody months! (hence your consumer form disclaimer).

Right, except there's more VR titles coming out for Windows than conventional Linux on Steam currently. Amazing how people like you just ignore like the numbers right there.

I hope no phones are running Feren as it was a flawed idea from the beginning. The point of highlighting Android as a viable daily driver OS for the masses was to point out just how much you overstate the importance of Windows in modern computing when the masses can get by just fine literally using Android as a desktop OS with better security and less hassles.

Well who knows about security issues with Android? And it's not like Android users use keyboards and mice and multiple monitors and work all day on them. Again, I've never said anyone needed Windows for the basics. Not ever. If you're using an x86 device these days, you don't need them for the basics, regardless of the OS.

Trying to shift the goalposts by twisting the point into an argument about Feren isn't going to change anything.

There's people out there running no more than iOS devices, a product that's literally no more than an app launcher! And they have fewer complaints than literally any other users out there.

They also aren't running multiple monitors. Again, x86 devices are becoming the devices not of the masses. Especially when overclocked with 10 cores and 2 GPUs that each cost more than the ASP of an iPad.

But this isn't about you, your PC, your graphics cards, your SSD's or your VR headset - This is about modern computing on varying platforms for the masses and how Windows is no longer a necessity anymore.

Well it seems like your definition or modern computing on any platform is a web browser. All I'm saying is that countless millions need more than that and what desktop Linux provides.

VR, VR, VR....! It's all we hear from you about a technology in it's absolute infancy! Give it a rest! I'm so sick of hearing about bloody VR.

I have tons of conventional games that aren't natively supported under Linux, but hey, VR, VR, VR!

Which pretty much sums up the masses and their computing requirements - The needs of the masses are so obviously uncomplicated that it's a usage case that literally can be assumed.

The future of the desktop, regardless of the OS, will not be that of the masses. The masses, regardless of the OS will never build computing devices or overclock them. This has never been a forum of the masses regardless of the OS.

I fail to see how Steam's lax hardware requirement labelling substantiates a case for Windows! Are you honestly trying to claim that Steam are useless so stick with Windows as Windows has you covered!

Oh my God, your arguments are so....Fickle.

Valve doesn't call an Linux desktop device a PC. If you think that's lax and not by design, LOL! Valve, that company that so many Linux folks went gaga over doesn't consider Linux devices PCs on their gift cards. That's a powerful statement if one is honest about it.

Lol! Pissed myself! When the hell did I in any way claim that Linux was a Windows clone! In this very thread I have stated the polar opposite! If Windows works for you, stick to Windows as us Linux users don't want to listen to your whining when you don't have a box with 'cancel', 'OK', and 'next' to click when installing software! Please, to anyone in this situation, stick to Windows!

And I'm guessing a much larger population that you call the masses isn't particular interesting in you're droning on about how superior Linux user are as well.

Like shovelware! Once the basics are covered, the rest is fairly redundant. Professionals may require the use of certain packages and if that's the case, please stick to Windows.

The vast software base under Linux allows you to achieve literally anything anyone would want to use a PC for.

So you've used all Windows software and Linux software and done a complete gap analysis? Talk about generalizations.

Once again, oh my God, are you serious? What a childish argument.

Except that a company that many Linux folks idolize made a differentiation between a PC and Linux. Well duh, like 80% of the games don't work under Linux. But hey, stop being childish!

No one's overselling Linux, you're simply misinformed and lacking experience in the OS and overstating the importance of Windows in modern computing - The fact is, with so many options available to the consumer, Windows just isn't absolutely necessary anymore.

You blast to hell stuff not compatible with desktop Linux. So much for options.

And I'm not interested in you trying to justify your Linux usage as reading your posts it's so blatantly obvious just how green you are when it comes to anything but Windows.

Give it a rest.

No one has to justify shit to anyone in this place. Use what works. Don't lie about shit that doesn't. Linux has fucktons of problems. Like yet another fucking desktop Linux distro. If you cannot understand the insanity of 50 things that sort of are the same but not all with different names, really? And never mind the Windows folks, Linux folks are always arguing over minutia anyway.

 

[BulletDust]

I'm just not sure what UI you are referring to when all one has to do is look at a camera to login using Windows Hello. The point of biometric interfaces is that there's no traditional computer UI involved. What part of looking into a camera to login would have any UI differences between Windows and Linux if such a thing existed on Linux? None.



I guarantee you some didn't. You think everyone is perfectly aware of operating systems at some level. Well, nope. Not saying people didn't see the change I'm just saying that many people may have seen the change and had no idea about the change in the OS. You seem to related EVERYTHING back to some user awareness of the operating system. That's just not the case.



How many of the masses as you call them could state what OS and version they were using on any device they used?




Windows Hello has nothing to do with VR. And the masses would never buy 10 core CPUs that work with Linux as well.



Accept a lot of that isn't covered by Linux. No Acrobat and no Microsoft Office. Those are gaps in Linux and telling people how incompatible Microsoft Office is with LibreOffice which the masses never heard of isn't that convincing.




Games can be very challenging in their own right. My starship just blew up because I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do in Star Trek Bridge Crew. Games aren't just toys and diversions, they can often require the use of a lot skill and thought and judgement.



Fixing a flat tire isn't driving one's car. You can't possibly be using anything if you're constantly fixing technical faults by definition.



And again, I've never argued otherwise. The difference in our opinions on this is just exactly what 1.5 billion are doing. And you have not better idea about that than me. If all they do is surf the web on a PC then Linux is more than viable. You talk about the masses and how VR is hot and heavy and don't use it but hey, you know that the masses just need the basics. They'll never want to explore or do new things beyond your conception on them.



I'm also looking for alternatives with far more recourses and ability to do so than the masses, I even have a 250 SSD installed in my sig with Linux Mint 18.1 Serena on it's own drive. I mean it's kind of comical to me that you're always encouraging people to "put Linux on a spare drive or partition" and I'm this big Microsoft shill that actually does it. But I also realize the masses don't tend to spare drives or partitions around or go into BIOS often to change boot order. I just get a huge kick out of that. And of course anything plugged into this kind of hardware, Linux folks are beyond less than helpful.


Right, except there's more VR titles coming out for Windows than conventional Linux on Steam currently. Amazing how people like you just ignore like the numbers right there.



Well who knows about security issues with Android? And it's not like Android users use keyboards and mice and multiple monitors and work all day on them. Again, I've never said anyone needed Windows for the basics. Not ever. If you're using an x86 device these days, you don't need them for the basics, regardless of the OS.





They also aren't running multiple monitors. Again, x86 devices are becoming the devices not of the masses. Especially when overclocked with 10 cores and 2 GPUs that each cost more than the ASP of an iPad.



Well it seems like your definition or modern computing on any platform is a web browser. All I'm saying is that countless millions need more than that and what desktop Linux provides.



I have tons of conventional games that aren't natively supported under Linux, but hey, VR, VR, VR!



The future of the desktop, regardless of the OS, will not be that of the masses. The masses, regardless of the OS will never build computing devices or overclock them. This has never been a forum of the masses regardless of the OS.



Valve doesn't call an Linux desktop device a PC. If you think that's lax and not by design, LOL! Valve, that company that so many Linux folks went gaga over doesn't consider Linux devices PCs on their gift cards. That's a powerful statement if one is honest about it.



And I'm guessing a much larger population that you call the masses isn't particular interesting in you're droning on about how superior Linux user are as well.



So you've used all Windows software and Linux software and done a complete gap analysis? Talk about generalizations.




Except that a company that many Linux folks idolize made a differentiation between a PC and Linux. Well duh, like 80% of the games don't work under Linux. But hey, stop being childish!



You blast to hell stuff not compatible with desktop Linux. So much for options.



No one has to justify shit to anyone in this place. Use what works. Don't lie about shit that doesn't. Linux has fucktons of problems. Like yet another fucking desktop Linux distro. If you cannot understand the insanity of 50 things that sort of are the same but not all with different names, really? And never mind the Windows folks, Linux folks are always arguing over minutia anyway.

All bullshit waffle, Windows hello is about the one thing that makes VR sound impressive, still requires Windows as an OS to run and appears to be about as advanced as facial recognition under Android. Once logged in the user still has to navigate the OS that even 75 year old grannies are more than aware has changed without their consent - I listen to them droning on about it daily.

And I speak with 100% certainty when i say that I have experienced virtually no issues under my current desktop install of Ubuntu MATE. Fuck ton of problems! Get a clue, grow up and give it a rest.

 

[B00nie]

All this focus on VR is trolling. Stop it already heatless.

Windows hello is for short sighted individuals who don't mind their telemetrics to be registered by a corporation for nefarious uses. Microsoft account, voice recognition, facial telemetrics, fingerprint database... You're owned by Microsoft. Literally.

 

[BulletDust]

Because of Heatlesssun, I hate VR.

 

[B00nie]

Because of Heatlesssun, I hate VR.

They do have similar characteristics. A prolonged period of exposure to both causes nausea.

 

[MrCrispy]

I keep hearing this required bit though... and I will once again call BS.

There is no more need to use the command line in Linux then there is to run services.msc or msconfig or regedit in windows.

I find it an interesting double standard that many Windows people have no issues suggesting "regular" users fix windows issues running those tools which improperly used can completely F someones computer. Yet suggesting someone pop open a terminal to do something basic like edit a specific piece of softwares conf file (which can do nothing worse then mess with their settings in that one piece of software) is somehow crazy talk.

In those same types of windows help sections I read people suggesting complete GPU driver removals... downloading third party tools to ensure they are really really gone.. before downloading massive 150mb driver downloads installing them as Admin ect, yet if I suggest;
sudo apt-get purge nvidia
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa
sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install nvidia-381 nvidia-settings
Reboot
Clearly I am speaking some arcane Linux neck beard only black magic bs. Never mind that what I just described with a very small bit of explanation is 1000% more logical to most noobies then all the crap involved with windows drivers. Sudo to give yourself admin... apt-get to get software... purge nvidia to remove old driver from build library... add the PPA (personal package archive) yes that makes sense to even noobies. Update your system & install nvidia drivers & install nvidia settings program.

Anyway long response... but simple point. Linux command line is no more required then the crazy windows tools experienced windows people seem to assume are logical and easy to use by inexperienced windows users cause they have buttons they can click. (never mind that one wrong click and their system is pouched... you know how hard it is to type a command that would kill your machine ) Linux command line is the way most experienced Linux people suggest people go to fix basic issues... cause its you know FASTER, better, and really is very logical for new users.

Between the 2 options -

1. go to Nvidia.com or open Windows update - download new driver, and uninstall driver using the many Gui options in Windows, or
2. type those commands in bash

I guarantee you 99.9% of normal users will prefer #1, because it is in fact simpler, not possible to screw up, and far less intimidating. This is not about experienced people, its about your everyday user. Global pp, sudo, apt - it may seem logical to you and it may in fact a better way, but its not easier or more intuitive.

 

[BulletDust]

Between the 2 options -

1. go to Nvidia.com or open Windows update - download new driver, and uninstall driver using the many Gui options in Windows, or
2. type those commands in bash

I guarantee you 99.9% of normal users will prefer #1, because it is in fact simpler, not possible to screw up, and far less intimidating. This is not about experienced people, its about your everyday user. Global pp, sudo, apt - it may seem logical to you and it may in fact a better way, but its not easier or more intuitive.

There's more work involved installing Nvidia drivers under Windows than under an Ubuntu derivative:


Google search "Nvidia PPA", click any one of a number of results.
sudo add-apt-repository [repo]
sudo update
sudo apt install nvidia.xxx.xx

All copy and paste.

Or do it purely via the GUI by going to additional drivers, selecting the driver and clicking 'update'.

As opposed to the Windows alternative:

Open browser > www.nvidia.com > search drivers > click download > wait for download to complete > double click installer > await permission to open file according to AV > say yes to UAC > Typical > next > next > no > ok > install > finished.

If you're going to form an argument you need to make sure the basis of your argument is sound first. None of your arguments highlight anything inherently difficult, they simply highlight a process that differs to Windows - Not at all surprising, considering Linux isn't Windows....

If you Windows folk put as much effort into learning as you do moaning you'd all be Linux geniuses.

Pro tip: The average masses you're talking about, they don't update graphics drivers.

 

[heatlesssun]

Because of Heatlesssun, I hate VR.

And because of you, I setup VR under Linux. No, not really, I was just curious.

 

[heatlesssun]

They do have similar characteristics. A prolonged period of exposure to both causes nausea.

I think you have that backwards. All personal attacks aside, the longer one uses VR the less those kinds of issues should occur. The biggest cause of VR nausea is auto locomotion and the first time I experienced it was so much nauseating for me as I don't get motion sickness but it's trippy. Overtime however it went away for me.

 

[heatlesssun]

Windows hello is for short sighted individuals who don't mind their telemetrics to be registered by a corporation for nefarious uses.

Windows Hello works completely locally. And really, a picture of my face? That's on file with my work and the state for my drivers license. Not to mention family photos splattered all over FB. So unless you don't drive, don't work and don't have any friends or family who post everything on social media then it's hard to see the issue with Windows Hello.

 

[heatlesssun]

And I speak with 100% certainty when i say that I have experienced virtually no issues under my current desktop install of Ubuntu MATE. Fuck ton of problems! Get a clue, grow up and give it a rest.

And I don't have tons of malware on my Windows devices because I know what I'm doing. I never said Linux doesn't work but of course if has it's problems like anything else. But you know what you're doing and avoid them. All of the stuff you need and depend on for instance is Linux compatible. That's simply not true of every person using a Windows PC. No matter how few and unimportant you think those people, they simply want to use what they want, need and paid for. It's got nothing to do with any undying love for Microsoft.

 

[BulletDust]

And I don't have tons of malware on my Windows devices because I know what I'm doing. I never said Linux doesn't work but of course if has it's problems like anything else. But you know what you're doing and avoid them. All of the stuff you need and depend on for instance is Linux compatible. That's simply not true of every person using a Windows PC. No matter how few and unimportant you think those people, they simply want to use what they want, need and paid for. It's got nothing to do with any undying love for Microsoft.

Compared to Windows, my Linux machine gives me no problems whatsoever - None. The only problem I can remember having was when I upgraded the kernel and my Nvidia Drivers bombed out as the version I was running wasn't compatible with the kernel, booted back into an earlier kernel via Grub no harm done. I have experienced far less issues running Linux than I have running Windows, that may not be the case for everyone when you consider an operating system that has to run on such a diverse platform, but provided the user avoids hardware known to have issues under Linux I'm fairly confident they'd be fine.

In relation to the masses and their needs out of a PC, they can get by better in many cases using an Android or iOS product, many of them by far prefer such products to a PC as such products give them less issues and are more reliable, this is a fact - Therefore, considering Linux exceeds their requirements considering their needs with no malware, virus or updating issues I can assure you that based on experience shifting a select few away from Windows due to their own uselessness, they'd be fine.

I've got retired clients that have literally lost thousands to online scammers, had they been running Linux none of it would have happened. You constantly overstate the necessity of Windows in modern computing, in fact you constantly overstate the necessity of a number of technologies in modern computing - What looked cool in Hollywood isn't really practical in the real world in relation to general computing.

 

[heatlesssun]

Compared to Windows, my Linux machine gives me no problems whatsoever - None. The only problem I can remember having was when I upgraded the kernel and my Nvidia Drivers bombed out as the version I was running wasn't compatible with the kernel, booted back into an earlier kernel via Grub no harm done. I have experienced far less issues running Linux than I have running Windows, that may not be the case for everyone when you consider an operating system that has to run on such a diverse platform, but provided the user avoids hardware known to have issues under Linux I'm fairly confident they'd be fine.

In relation to the masses and their needs out of a PC, they can get by better in many cases using an Android or iOS product, many of them by far prefer such products to a PC as such products give them less issues and are more reliable, this is a fact - Therefore, considering Linux exceeds their requirements considering their needs with no malware, virus or updating issues I can assure you that based on experience shifting a select few away from Windows due to their own uselessness, they'd be fine.

I've got retired clients that have literally lost thousands to online scammers, had they been running Linux none of it would have happened. You constantly overstate the necessity of Windows in modern computing, in fact you constantly overstate the necessity of a number of technologies in modern computing - What looked cool in Hollywood isn't really practical in the real world in relation to general computing.

I'm not saying you don't have a point but these kinds of scams run the gambit, at least in the US, from PC to repair to you're going to jail for parking tickets to your house is about to be confiscated for back taxes to we have your child hostage. No OS can protect anyone from these kinds of threats. At some point you have to just have some awareness of the world around you. You claim I hate Linux, then you claim Linux isn't Windows and say you have to put some effort into it. I setup Linux under VR and then you say I made you hate VR. Because I spent for more time and effort than the average user would in running Linux?

You guys are all over the place with everything. Like another 100 Linux distros that even Linus gurus have never touched. I've never, not once, denied the issues Windows has with local malware. But damn, if people fall for their children being kidnapped when they weren't fucking over people with local Windows malware should be simple by comparison. The issues with Windows malware are directly related to its popularity on the desktop. Linux helps out with that as long as it's under the radar. But that's not a bad thing, if you just can't help but fall for everything and want a PC, maybe Linux is the way to go.

As for overstating the importance of the Windows ecosystem. Nope. I've simply said that if someone wants to do something with a PC it's more than likely going to be supported by Windows. I've never placed any importance on that beyond that countless millions do use things on PCs not supported by Linux. They aren't all going to switch over to Linux by you berating someone who actually got VR working under Linux.

 

[BulletDust]

Well it seems like your definition or modern computing on any platform is a web browser. All I'm saying is that countless millions need more than that and what desktop Linux provides.

The scammers remotely access a victims PC via a remote access tool that only works under Windows, then they lock the users PC by exploiting a flaw in Windows and delete system restore points - There is a common element here....Windows.

In my example, had my clients not been running Windows they wouldn't have been scammed as the method used to scam the individuals in question would not have worked. In this regard, yes, the usage statistics of the operating system, that in no way reflect any superiority over alternate operating systems, results in Windows being the targeted platform - But make no mistake, Linux is more secure than Windows and using the popularity card is a simple cop out with no evidence whatsoever supporting such a claim, in fact there's more evidence supporting the fact that Linux is more secure.

Now my clients run Linux, it was their choice after going over options, it's been around six months now and everything is great - They feel safe and secure and they love it, scammers ring and all they do is say "I run Linux" and the scmmers hang up; now that they've been targeted scammers ring them all the time.

At some point you have to just have some awareness of the world around you. You claim I hate Linux, then you claim Linux isn't Windows and say you have to put some effort into it. I setup Linux under VR and then you say I made you hate VR. Because I spent for more time and effort than the average user would in running Linux?

My awareness of the world around me is off the scale my friend! How's your awareness regarding the world around you going when all you do is game and use VR? In every one of your posts your point is obvious, you believe Linux to be inferior to Windows while showing way heightened bias for Windows - Way beyond any bias I've personally ever encountered. Your comments are generalised and misinformed, in a nutshell most of your postings regarding Linux are flat out incorrect! So if I claim you hate Linux, I have fairly good reasons for making such a claim! I don't claim to hate VR because you tried it under Linux, of which I've actually seen no evidence apart from your word, I hate VR because it's all you crap on about.

You guys are all over the place with everything. Like another 100 Linux distros that even Linus gurus have never touched. I've never, not once, denied the issues Windows has with local malware. But damn, if people fall for their children being kidnapped when they weren't fucking over people with local Windows malware should be simple by comparison. The issues with Windows malware are directly related to its popularity on the desktop. Linux helps out with that as long as it's under the radar. But that's not a bad thing, if you just can't help but fall for everything and want a PC, maybe Linux is the way to go.

Flat out incorrect, prove to me that Windows malware/virus issues are a direct result of it's popularity using more than just hearsay and I'll dig up numerous links of evidence highlighting that Unix derived operating systems are actually more secure than NT based operating systems - There is a very valid reason why malware under Windows can bring down the entire OS while the same attack under OSX doesn't touch the OS at all and can be simply and easily removed by one run of Malwarebytes.

As for you claim of 100 distro's, who gives a shit? Stick to the main ones and you're fine! You don't use all 100 distro's!

As for overstating the importance of the Windows ecosystem. Nope. I've simply said that if someone wants to do something with a PC it's more than likely going to be supported by Windows. I've never placed any importance on that beyond that countless millions do use things on PCs not supported by Linux. They aren't all going to switch over to Linux by you berating someone who actually got VR working under Linux.

Which, considering the technical capabilities of the bulk of computer users out there is generalised, unfounded and flat out untrue! I am an above average computer enthusiast and Linux does just fine considering my advanced usage case and the running of my business - I can assure you that if it works for me there is no doubt that it will work for the masses. I claim this in absolute honesty and what's your reply? you claim I'm lying!

You have no idea what you are talking about regarding the masses. You work in an industry of heavily protected computing devices looked after by sysadmins while you play games and use VR, you are in no position to comment on Linux compared to Windows.

The fact you got VR running under Linux is anything but rocket science and earns you no respect whatsoever just because you happen to be in the position of being able to justify the purchase of a VR headset.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Great yet ANOTHER version to claim to be like windows, sorry said and done a million times, if all these elite linux people would all stop thinking THEIR OS is better than the last million and put their heads into 1 OS maybe they would make more progress.

 

[BulletDust]

Great yet ANOTHER version to claim to be like windows, sorry said and done a million times, if all these elite linux people would all stop thinking THEIR OS is better than the last million and put their heads into 1 OS maybe they would make more progress.

With the advent of Windows 10 the harsh reality that I'm willing to accept is that Windows is going backwards at an alarming and self destructive rate, that's a fact that's literally impossible to ignore.

 

[MrGuvernment]

With the advent of Windows 10 the harsh reality that I'm willing to accept is that Windows is going backwards at an alarming and self destructive rate, that's a fact that's literally impossible to ignore.

To a very small percentage of people, people like us sure, but the mass general public could care less. Most people at the clients i work with could careless about Windows 10 or what it does as long as it works, which for them it does. The general public could careless if it reports everything they do to MS and god knows who else, the general public could care less about all the gripes tech people have over Windows 10 thus it will eventually phase out previous versions of windows as people buy new devices.

 

[BulletDust]

To a very small percentage of people, people like us sure, but the mass general public could care less. Most people at the clients i work with could careless about Windows 10 or what it does as long as it works, which for them it does. The general public could careless if it reports everything they do to MS and god knows who else, the general public could care less about all the gripes tech people have over Windows 10 thus it will eventually phase out previous versions of windows as people buy new devices.

As someone that deals with the general public, I can assure you, they care....

The problem is they have no choice.

 

[heatlesssun]

The scammers remotely access a victims PC via a remote access tool that only works under Windows, then they lock the users PC by exploiting a flaw in Windows and delete system restore points - There is a common element here....Windows.

So it would be impossible to develop such tools under Linux? Again, you see an the shit of Windows, I get that. You're never going to see people who don't have problems with Windows. How the percentages break down I don't have any idea.

In my example, had my clients not been running Windows they wouldn't have been scammed as the method used to scam the individuals in question would not have worked.

Fair enough. The tactics in this case would worked only if one was running by far the most popular desktop OS on earth. Question? And I'm serious and I don't know how much you charge for knowledge, would they worked against people like me? Again, I really love to learn and do things that are so out there that even Linux folks will attack me, while running Linux to do it.

My awareness of the world around me is off the scale my friend! How's your awareness regarding the world around you going when all you do is game and use VR?

Considering that my livelihood is running on Windows, I'm pretty aware.

In every one of your posts your point is obvious, you believe Linux to be inferior to Windows while showing way heightened bias for Windows -

Well if I wanted help with Linux VR support, it's not like I'd ask you guys. I spent a lot of effort on that waste of time and well you hate VR because of me. Typical Linux arrogance.

Flat out incorrect, prove to me that Windows malware/virus issues are a direct result of it's popularity using more than just hearsay and I'll dig up numerous links of evidence highlighting that Unix derived operating systems are actually more secure than NT based operating systems - There is a very valid reason why malware under Windows can bring down the entire OS while the same attack under OSX doesn't touch the OS at all and can be simply and easily removed by one run of Malwarebytes.

LOL! Prove to me that everything that works under Windows works under Linux except malware.

As for you claim of 100 distro's, who gives a shit? Stick to the main ones and you're fine! You don't use all 100 distro's!

Sure, like Feren? What the hell are the main Linux distros? I know of some, but who the hell I'm I. I don't know anything about Linux.

Which, considering the technical capabilities of the bulk of computer users out there is generalised, unfounded and flat out untrue! I am an above average computer enthusiast and Linux does just fine considering my advanced usage case and the running of my business - I can assure you that if it works for me there is no doubt that it will work for the masses. I claim this in absolute honesty and what's your reply? you claim I'm lying!

Please tell me when I said you couldn't do what you needed to do with desktop Linux. You're the one with the personal attacks about how I made you hate VR all the while spending time making Linux VR work on thousands of dollars worth hardware without your help.

You have no idea what you are talking about regarding the masses. You work in an industry of heavily protected computing devices looked after by sysadmins while you play games and use VR, you are in no position to comment on Linux compared to Windows.

I have a lot of Windows hardware and software, well beyond the even Linux folks. I have no choice to protect many thousands of dollars of my hard earned money.

The fact you got VR running under Linux is anything but rocket science and earns you no respect whatsoever just because you happen to be in the position of being able to justify the purchase of a VR headset.

You haven't even tried so it's not like I give a shit what a pro-desktop Linux guy who tells me how smart his is with something he's never ever tried. At some point you can't blast me for something I can demonstrate to anyone, running under Linux, when you can't. Maybe you should give me some tips or help. But nope, typical desktop Linux arrogance as usual.

 

[BulletDust]

So it would be impossible to develop such tools under Linux? Again, you see an the shit of Windows, I get that. You're never going to see people who don't have problems with Windows. How the percentages break down I don't have any idea.



Fair enough. The tactics in this case would worked only if one was running by far the most popular desktop OS on earth. Question? And I'm serious and I don't know how much you charge for knowledge, would they worked against people like me? Again, I really love to learn and do things that are so out there that even Linux folks will attack me, while running Linux to do it.



Considering that my livelihood is running on Windows, I'm pretty aware.



Well if I wanted help with Linux VR support, it's not like I'd ask you guys. I spent a lot of effort on that waste of time and well you hate VR because of me. Typical Linux arrogance.



LOL! Prove to me that everything that works under Windows works under Linux except malware.



Sure, like Feren? What the hell are the main Linux distros? I know of some, but who the hell I'm I. I don't know anything about Linux.



Please tell me when I said you couldn't do what you needed to do with desktop Linux. You're the one with the personal attacks about how I made you hate VR all the while spending time making Linux VR work on thousands of dollars worth hardware without your help.



I have a lot of Windows hardware and software, well beyond the even Linux folks. I have no choice to protect many thousands of dollars of my hard earned money.



You haven't even tried so it's not like I give a shit what a pro-desktop Linux guy who tells me how smart his is with something he's never ever tried. At some point you can't blast me for something I can demonstrate to anyone, running under Linux, when you can't. Maybe you should give me some tips or help. But nope, typical desktop Linux arrogance as usual.

Haven't read this post, your opinions are ridiculous. I pity anyone that even remotely believes anything you post. But believe what you want - As long as you can justify it to yourself that's all that matters.

Post shit about Linux though and I will pull you up, and you post a lot of misinformed garbage about Linux.

 

[B00nie]

Windows Hello works completely locally. And really, a picture of my face? That's on file with my work and the state for my drivers license. Not to mention family photos splattered all over FB. So unless you don't drive, don't work and don't have any friends or family who post everything on social media then it's hard to see the issue with Windows Hello.

Locally until telemetry downloads it to the servers that is. And your face being 'on file' with the government agency is hardly the same as your facial telemetry being linked to your Microsoft account being 'on file' and for sale at Microsoft. If you're crazy enough to put your private photos on Facebook, shame on you. Of course you cannot even expect to have any sort of privacy after doing a heinous thing like that.

 

[ManofGod]

Haven't read this post, your opinions are ridiculous. I pity anyone that even remotely believes anything you post. But believe what you want - As long as you can justify it to yourself that's all that matters.

Post shit about Linux though and I will pull you up, and you post a lot of misinformed garbage about Linux.

If you have not read this post, then why the hell comment on it. Sorry but, this YALD is not a game changer, anymore than the rest of them, which have changed nothing for Linux Desktop on the world stage.

 

[B00nie]

Heh I just read part of heatlessuns rant. He still thinks you need acrobat and MICROSOFT office to handle pdf and office documents. Hilarious.

 

[heatlesssun]

Locally until telemetry downloads it to the servers that is. And your face being 'on file' with the government agency is hardly the same as your facial telemetry being linked to your Microsoft account being 'on file' and for sale at Microsoft. If you're crazy enough to put your private photos on Facebook, shame on you. Of course you cannot even expect to have any sort of privacy after doing a heinous thing like that.

Microsoft says that Windows Hello doesn't transmit the facial data off the machine and after two years I've heard no reports otherwise. I don't use FB but I know plenty of people who do and in family settings people are always posting picture. And I don't to come across as the paranoid looney telling people not to post any image with me to social media. That makes people look like their wanted by the FBI or something.