Electric Vehicle Owners Turning Against Each Other

carnageX

Gawd
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
515
The key word is "planned"

I'll believe it once they start selling them for that price, without any subsidies.

I don't see it being that farfetched. The previous generation (Model S) helps pay for the next generation (Model 3) since a lot of the R&D costs will be / have been recouped. Granted I don't think the "stock" Model 3 is going to have 200+ mile range, but I imagine it'll be pretty close.

Battery prices will most likely start to decline somewhat as well since Tesla started building that plant in Nevada to meet more of a demand (at least until there's some "breakthrough" in battery tech).
 

Armenius

Extremely [H]
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Jan 28, 2014
Messages
35,428
"Free..."

Someone is paying for the carbon being used to produce the electricity your car is juicing on.
 

HockeyJon

[H]ard|Gawd
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Dec 14, 2014
Messages
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People that are buying $130k teslas really don't care it's "free" electricity.

Actually, you'd be surprised. Those people are often the cheapest people you'll ever meet, which is probably why they had $130k to spend on a car in the first place.
 

twonunpackmule

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
1,682
I don't hate electrics. But, I don't like using tax payer money to subsidize them. Especially since these subsidies are going to people that really don't need them. Especially Tesla owners. I especially don't like the idea of taxpayers paying for the cost of charging electrics. Public charging stations should be metered at a fair cost.

News like this just supports my continuing opinion that Electrics with less than 150 miles for a practical range are pretty problematic. Volts and Leafs that get less than 60 miles a charge don't cut it. Now, sell a reasonably priced Electric (30 to 35K ish without subsidies) that gets over 100 miles per charge and I will even recommend it to people if appropriate.

You're asking for something out of a minority. It would not be cost efficient to run metered charging stations at this point because of demand. It isn't there yet. There are too few owners of these cars. Once they cross a certain thresold, I would agree with you. Right now, the idea is to give incentives to alternate use of energy. Which I completely agree with. We need to get off fossil fuels. Not just for the environment, but for the sake of innovation. Alternate methods will yield better outcomes and increase quality of life.
 

GotNoRice

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
11,392
If the electricity at these charging stations is free, and thus doesn't necessarily need to be individually metered on a per-car basis, then wouldn't a few splitters/power strips and extension cords solve the problems in the OP?
 

Dayaks

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
9,181
All electric cars are not logical from a fiscal (or likely an environmental) perspective given the current technologies.

I am a fan of hybrids with small batteries that recoup/regen.

I personally skipped on the hybrid Highlander because I thought it was designed half assed. I skipped on the RX450 for the RX350 because I mainly do highway miles, which the hybrid doesn't make sense for.

All electric vehicles are kinda in the same class as multiGPU for me. If you're a glutton for pain for something that sounds like a good idea but isn't...
 

Methadras

Supreme [H]ardness
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Dec 19, 2000
Messages
6,132
The day someone makes a diesel/electric hybrid car is the day I will buy one.
 

Hades16x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
3,466
If the electricity at these charging stations is free, and thus doesn't necessarily need to be individually metered on a per-car basis, then wouldn't a few splitters/power strips and extension cords solve the problems in the OP?


I smell a fire waiting to happen.

Some quick research shows that the single Model S home charger is wired to 208-240 VAC on a 50 Amp breaker (40 A draw) and charges at 29 miles per hour. Model S can be configured with a dual charger (208-240 VAC 100 A breaker) to charge at 58 miles per hour.

A single Supercharger bay will charge two Teslas and is "configured" with 12 of the "single chargers" - 6 per car.

I don't think I'd trust an "extension cable" and a "power strip."
 

pennitent

n00b
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
1
My problem with the Prius is more on the inside/dash than the outside looks. That combined with the underpowered motor would stop me from every buying one.

However, Toyota make a much nicer Hybrid, the Camry Hybrid. Looks like a normal Camry, with just slight differences.
My morning commute is 100% heavy city traffic, lots of long lights, yet I get almost 2x the mileage I used to get from my older 4 cyl Camry. I average about 35MPG in the city, which is better than I would get driving tiny smart car. Not bad for a mid size car with 200 HP.

Actually my 2013 Prius (I think it's a Prius 3) has a Camry engine for its gas engine and it feels quite powerful. I get about 45 MPG but that's because I speed often. I drove my wife's Insight yesterday and that car was completely gutless and under powered.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
I smell a fire waiting to happen.

Some quick research shows that the single Model S home charger is wired to 208-240 VAC on a 50 Amp breaker (40 A draw) and charges at 29 miles per hour. Model S can be configured with a dual charger (208-240 VAC 100 A breaker) to charge at 58 miles per hour.

A single Supercharger bay will charge two Teslas and is "configured" with 12 of the "single chargers" - 6 per car.

I don't think I'd trust an "extension cable" and a "power strip."

208VAC is three phase. What home has three phase? The electric companies don't even generally run that service into residential neighborhoods.
 

maverikv

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
1,992
Where do you think the electricity comes from? The electricity fairy?

All you are doing is trading oil for coal.

Only 1.5% of the electricity in my state is coal

So no. Mostly hydro here. Clean from plant to car.
 

bob616

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
166
Not sure why so many here are opposed to breathing cleaner air. Personally I'd like an electric vehicle but it would need a 200 mile range because of where I live and would also need to be 4x4 since this is a heavy snow area (well if the drought ever ends). The real problem might be charging at home, I have a 150 amp service which would probably have to be upgraded unless I wanted make sure a few things were off (like a heater or two) while charging the car. Not sure what's involved in upgrading the service (new panel?) but it's just another thing to add to the price. One problem is the last 5 miles is a 1000' rise in elevation so I'm thinking that's going to drain the batteries a bit though I guess I could coast back down to recharge them ;).

Also it's easier to trap the pollution at a few thousand power plants than millions of cars.
 

Nate7311

2[H]4U
Joined
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Messages
3,320
Only 1.5% of the electricity in my state is coal

So no. Mostly hydro here. Clean from plant to car.

And that's in your state... There are electric cars in more than just your state.

My biggest fear is for the electric grid at large given the growing uptake in plugin cars. How many people remember the rolling blackouts of a few summers ago. Once everyone has electric cars and the power demand AT NIGHT equals daytime demand. What do you think your electric rates will do? What happens when the grid collapses again due to demand?
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
Why do you hate american ingenuity

You mean the new ingenuity like how to leach off the taxpayer by getting huge taxpayer subsidies for your business and selling a product that only makes sense if the buyer gets a huge tax rebate?

No, I prefer the old ingenuity where people don't need government handouts.
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
7,380
Not sure why so many here are opposed to breathing cleaner air. Personally I'd like an electric vehicle but it would need a 200 mile range because of where I live and would also need to be 4x4 since this is a heavy snow area (well if the drought ever ends). The real problem might be charging at home, I have a 150 amp service which would probably have to be upgraded unless I wanted make sure a few things were off (like a heater or two) while charging the car. Not sure what's involved in upgrading the service (new panel?) but it's just another thing to add to the price. One problem is the last 5 miles is a 1000' rise in elevation so I'm thinking that's going to drain the batteries a bit though I guess I could coast back down to recharge them ;).

Also it's easier to trap the pollution at a few thousand power plants than millions of cars.

You missed a few more problems.

What happens if you have 2 cars to charge? Your 150 amp service is not going to be enough.
Upgrade to a 200 amp service? Expensive.
How many homes in your area could be charging electric cars before they need to upgrade the main electrical lines? More $$$ the electrical company will need to spend and add to everyone's bill.

200 mile range, 4x4 and heavy snow/cold? Not something an electric car is good at. Cold weather reduces the range (batteries are less efficient), and running the heater will also drain the battery. 4x4 will also reduce the range. You would need an electric car that is normally rated closer to 300 miles to get 200 miles in the snow.
 

maverikv

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
1,992
You mean the new ingenuity like how to leach off the taxpayer by getting huge taxpayer subsidies for your business and selling a product that only makes sense if the buyer gets a huge tax rebate?

No, I prefer the old ingenuity where people don't need government handouts.

You don't think the decayed dinosaurs you burn to power your car are subsidized?

lol
 

Ur_Mom

Fully [H]
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,639
So how do a pair of smug, jackwad, hipster douche EV drivers fight?

giphy.gif

I want a nice EV.... I don't know what your deal is..... Ok, that is probably how we'd fight.

Tesla installed a dozen stations in Kennewick, WA. I've only seen one car there once.
 

pxc

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 22, 2000
Messages
33,064
California mandates that a certain number of electric vehicles be sold there every year... and the number increases every year. If they want compliance, they have to provide the charging services or who would ever buy one?
All commercially available FEV (at least ones meant for consumers) can charge from a 110V outlet, and usually also have quicker 220V options. Most houses have both available, so why would the state need to make an electricity infrastructure? The morons fighting over "free" charging provided at different venues are likely just being cheap.

I run past a Tesla supercharging station on my route often and it always seems to have the same few cars there. I doubt the same people are always going on a long trip or are just passing by and instead just want a "free" charge daily.
 

McFry

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,715
Hey guys, remember when buying an R290X was cost prohibitive? Gee golly AMD should have just tossed the entire project and stuck with our existing gen video cards at the time and never moved forward.
 

Liver

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
5,626
Actually, you'd be surprised. Those people are often the cheapest people you'll ever meet, which is probably why they had $130k to spend on a car in the first place.

Nah. I don't subscribe to that logic at all. Of course your experience may be different.

If I had a spare $130k, I'd buy a P90D with some options. No doubt.
 

Hades16x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
3,466
208VAC is three phase. What home has three phase? The electric companies don't even generally run that service into residential neighborhoods.

You kind of miss the point I was trying to make regarding why you cant just use a power strip + extension cord. The story in the OP said this confrontation happened at a public charging station, not at home. It is quite possible that 208VAC three phase is available at said charge station.

Point is - in order to gain a measurable range-recharge in a reasonable amount of time, higher-than 120 VAC + more than 20 amp is necessary. Would you use a power strip/extension cord so two EVs can charge simultaneously?

Nissan Leaf:
"Level 1" - 15 hour charge time
120VAC/20A
Level 2 - 0%-80% in 4 hours / 100% in 8 hours
240VAC/30A
Level 3 - 0%-80% in 30 minutes
480VAC/125A

Tesla's in home charger:

120V ABOVE GROUND
(common in North America)

1) 240V AC single-phase: L1, L2, and
safety ground

2) 208V AC 3-phase, Wye-connected:
Any 2 phases, and safety ground.

3) 240V AC 3-phase, delta-connected:
With center tap on one leg, use only
the two phases on either side of the
center tap. The two phases must both
measure 120V AC to ground. Do not
use the third leg (208V “stinger”).

Maximum 100A circuit breaker.
The maximum current for charging
the vehicle is 80A or 20 kW.
At 240V, this is 19 kW maximum.
 

bob616

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
166
You missed a few more problems.

What happens if you have 2 cars to charge? Your 150 amp service is not going to be enough.
Upgrade to a 200 amp service? Expensive.
How many homes in your area could be charging electric cars before they need to upgrade the main electrical lines? More $$$ the electrical company will need to spend and add to everyone's bill.

200 mile range, 4x4 and heavy snow/cold? Not something an electric car is good at. Cold weather reduces the range (batteries are less efficient), and running the heater will also drain the battery. 4x4 will also reduce the range. You would need an electric car that is normally rated closer to 300 miles to get 200 miles in the snow.

Well some good points, but I'm at the end of rural line in a small subdivision, according to the power company the lines are well under capacity here. Main problem is 3 phase 240v service, can't do that here. If I had a second car it would probably be to keep the gas pickup for when I need one (like when they haven't yet plowed off that last foot of snow) but I'd really rather only have one car. I meant a 200 mile range in my conditions cold or hot i.e. a minimum...though really a 160 mile range would probably work, but it's nice to have a little extra. I don't doubt that we will get there eventually, I was just pointing out at what point an electric car would be practical for where I live (and it would have to be a four door or wagon or pickup too).

This is the high Sierra's where snow often means temps in the upper 20's to low 30's (hence the term "Sierra cement" to describe the snow) and if the batteries have been plugged in all night I'd suspect they'll be a bit warm from the trickle charge after the main charge, I used to do that with my old diesel pickup when the batteries were near the end of their life. For people in really cold climates, yes, this could be a severe problem, but I don't think we are at the point where we can consider replacing all vehicles with electric ones, we are just at the start of the change it will come, problems will be addressed, but it's not an overnight solution.

Like I said having to upgrade the service would be a downside and might be a problem for other's with low amp old houses. Seems like when they build new houses now they generally put in larger services...also this house used to have propane but I got rid of that (allergies) so it wasn't intended to be all electric when designed 30 years ago (well I have a wood stove backup but haven't needed it even when the power went out for three days last Jan, there was enough sun to keep things warm).



One other point: people make out how you can't recharge an electric car if there is a power outage. Well none of the service stations here have generators so if the power is out you can't get gas either (or drive 60 miles to where, hopefully, the power isn't out)...internet tends to go out too...in fact only thing that works is landlines and who has those anymore ;)?

Oh and as far as infrastructure it needs to be improved/replaced at some point (entropy) and why wouldn't they? The electric companies know a good thing when they see it and more use means more profits, they will catch up where needed they always (with occasional goofs like the Enron thing) have. I don't see too many people having a low power problem because their electric line hale from the 1920's. A lot of electric lines and stuff here were put in in the 60's and it all slowly gets improved as demand increases (a whole large area here was electrified about 15 years ago, they just ran some new lines to handle it because the increasing population (aka demand made it economical even with a few holdout who still use generators).
 

TwistedAegis

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
8,958
I don't hate electrics. But, I don't like using tax payer money to subsidize them.

You mean the new ingenuity like how to leach off the taxpayer by getting huge taxpayer subsidies for your business and selling a product that only makes sense if the buyer gets a huge tax rebate?

No, I prefer the old ingenuity where people don't need government handouts.

Right...all those troops stationed in Iraq, protecting the solar fields used to fill up those electric cars sure are costing us big $$.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2010/08/05/the-ministry-of-oil-defense/

Meanwhile, oil and fossil fuels continues to be subsidized by all governments at a exponential rate compared to renewable; renewable need the support to catch up.
 

bob616

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
166
You kind of miss the point I was trying to make regarding why you cant just use a power strip + extension cord. The story in the OP said this confrontation happened at a public charging station, not at home. It is quite possible that 208VAC three phase is available at said charge station.

Point is - in order to gain a measurable range-recharge in a reasonable amount of time, higher-than 120 VAC + more than 20 amp is necessary. Would you use a power strip/extension cord so two EVs can charge simultaneously?

Nissan Leaf:
"Level 1" - 15 hour charge time
120VAC/20A
Level 2 - 0%-80% in 4 hours / 100% in 8 hours
240VAC/30A
Level 3 - 0%-80% in 30 minutes
480VAC/125A

Tesla's in home charger:

120V ABOVE GROUND
(common in North America)

1) 240V AC single-phase: L1, L2, and
safety ground

2) 208V AC 3-phase, Wye-connected:
Any 2 phases, and safety ground.

3) 240V AC 3-phase, delta-connected:
With center tap on one leg, use only
the two phases on either side of the
center tap. The two phases must both
measure 120V AC to ground. Do not
use the third leg (208V “stinger”).

Maximum 100A circuit breaker.
The maximum current for charging
the vehicle is 80A or 20 kW.
At 240V, this is 19 kW maximum.

Actually I know people who have 3 phase shop tools AT THEIR HOMES.

It was pointed out in an earlier post that an overnight charger used what was it 40amps at 220/240. If you have a 150amp service and your are say heating your home, using your computer, have on a few lights, maybe cooking something, the refrigerator and freezer are on, the water heater goes on, maybe the water pump, and you are charging your car something might go fzzst or hopefully a breaker will trip. Now if your service can handle it adding another circuit just for charging your car is going to be a relatively small part of the cost of a new car.

I NEVER mentioned using a power strip/extension cord. I can use a fast charger to recharge one battery with a 20 foot heavy gauge extension cord using 120v AC. I would never dream of trying to charge a battery bank that way. I doubt most people would try as long 220/240V extension cords are not exactly common at the local hardware store.
 

bob616

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
166
Actually I know people who have 3 phase shop tools AT THEIR HOMES.

It was pointed out in an earlier post that an overnight charger used what was it 40amps at 220/240. If you have a 150amp service and your are say heating your home, using your computer, have on a few lights, maybe cooking something, the refrigerator and freezer are on, the water heater goes on, maybe the water pump, and you are charging your car something might go fzzst or hopefully a breaker will trip. Now if your service can handle it adding another circuit just for charging your car is going to be a relatively small part of the cost of a new car.

I NEVER mentioned using a power strip/extension cord. I can use a fast charger to recharge one battery with a 20 foot heavy gauge extension cord using 120v AC. I would never dream of trying to charge a battery bank that way. I doubt most people would try as long 220/240V extension cords are not exactly common at the local hardware store.

NEVER Mind, my mind tripped here looking at the wrong post, sorry.
 

Hades16x

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
3,466
NEVER Mind, my mind tripped here looking at the wrong post, sorry.

Not a problem. Was confused at first...,...

You missed a few more problems.

What happens if you have 2 cars to charge? Your 150 amp service is not going to be enough.
Upgrade to a 200 amp service? Expensive.
How many homes in your area could be charging electric cars before they need to upgrade the main electrical lines? More $$$ the electrical company will need to spend and add to everyone's bill.

200 mile range, 4x4 and heavy snow/cold? Not something an electric car is good at. Cold weather reduces the range (batteries are less efficient), and running the heater will also drain the battery. 4x4 will also reduce the range. You would need an electric car that is normally rated closer to 300 miles to get 200 miles in the snow.

Very valid points.

However, cars like the Model S can be configured to only charge at off-peak times. I'd venture to say that most people stop using high power draw items (such as a dryer) after midnight to 2 AM. The time required to charge a Model S that is 200 miles into it's last full charge at 240VAC/40A is 6:48. On a DAY TO DAY basis, a family that owns two Model S's will be able to do a 200 mile top off charge to both vehicles, on two separate 240VAC/40A circuits, throughout the night.

It may be inconvenient to sacrifice the 240VAC/100A circuit moving from 1 to 2 Tesla's, but still should be reasonable with a single 150A home breaker.

The Model S sacrifices 7% of it's total range below 30F. That places the expected range of the lowest battery capacity Model S, 70D, at 230-ish miles.

Also, it will likely be a while before we see an all-electric 4x4. People that live in a climate (or those that have other valid reasons) to own a vehicle with four-wheel locked differentials will be better off with true 4x4 vehicle. Most people do not *need* four wheel drive - and auto manufactures have responded with "all wheel drive" as a way to reduce the parasitic losses found in a true 4x4's drive train. Tesla followed that trend with the P85D. Even with the additional weight, second motor etc, the P85D has a range that is 10 miles FURTHER than the P85.

I want one.
 

Methadras

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 19, 2000
Messages
6,132
Yeah. Just like General Motors and Chrysler. Oh wait...

Those companies had no say so in the matter. Government simply injected itself and bought out their failing business instead of letting another company come in and buy them out. Remember how these companies were considered too big to fail. That wasn't market forces at play, that was government at play and with tax dollars to boot.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
Well some good points, but I'm at the end of rural line in a small subdivision, according to the power company the lines are well under capacity here. Main problem is 3 phase 240v service, can't do that here. If I had a second car it would probably be to keep the gas pickup for when I need one (like when they haven't yet plowed off that last foot of snow) but I'd really rather only have one car. I meant a 200 mile range in my conditions cold or hot i.e. a minimum...though really a 160 mile range would probably work, but it's nice to have a little extra. I don't doubt that we will get there eventually, I was just pointing out at what point an electric car would be practical for where I live (and it would have to be a four door or wagon or pickup too).

This is the high Sierra's where snow often means temps in the upper 20's to low 30's (hence the term "Sierra cement" to describe the snow) and if the batteries have been plugged in all night I'd suspect they'll be a bit warm from the trickle charge after the main charge, I used to do that with my old diesel pickup when the batteries were near the end of their life. For people in really cold climates, yes, this could be a severe problem, but I don't think we are at the point where we can consider replacing all vehicles with electric ones, we are just at the start of the change it will come, problems will be addressed, but it's not an overnight solution.

Like I said having to upgrade the service would be a downside and might be a problem for other's with low amp old houses. Seems like when they build new houses now they generally put in larger services...also this house used to have propane but I got rid of that (allergies) so it wasn't intended to be all electric when designed 30 years ago (well I have a wood stove backup but haven't needed it even when the power went out for three days last Jan, there was enough sun to keep things warm).



One other point: people make out how you can't recharge an electric car if there is a power outage. Well none of the service stations here have generators so if the power is out you can't get gas either (or drive 60 miles to where, hopefully, the power isn't out)...internet tends to go out too...in fact only thing that works is landlines and who has those anymore ;)?

Oh and as far as infrastructure it needs to be improved/replaced at some point (entropy) and why wouldn't they? The electric companies know a good thing when they see it and more use means more profits, they will catch up where needed they always (with occasional goofs like the Enron thing) have. I don't see too many people having a low power problem because their electric line hale from the 1920's. A lot of electric lines and stuff here were put in in the 60's and it all slowly gets improved as demand increases (a whole large area here was electrified about 15 years ago, they just ran some new lines to handle it because the increasing population (aka demand made it economical even with a few holdout who still use generators).

240V shouldn't be a problem since you should already have split-phase service (basically two 120V taps off different points of the transformer; if you connect one tap to neutral, you get 120V, if you connect one tap to the other tap, you get 240V) and I'm sure you have a drier or stove or electric water heater that uses 240V.

208V requires three phase (basically 208V is one leg of the three phases).
 

sfsuphysics

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
15,534
Why should tax payer money be used to provide these things? I guess if a corporation wants to do it that's up to them but I think they should charge people for it -- not just the cars.

Exactly, and lets start with making sure we spend no money on any sort of military presence stabilizing fuel sources around the world... lets get rid of all subsidies for energy, and lets get rid of all sorts of farm subsidies just so you can pay $10 for a loaf of bread after filling up for $10/gallon to get there.

Yes I'm probably exaggerating a bit on the price of things, but seriously people get up in arms every time some solar or wind rebates exist, but don't think to how many rebates they've received unintentionally using gasoline, or electricity directly from your power company, or clean water, or schools, or etc..
 

maverikv

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
1,992
Depends on the state, cheaper here to buy gas than to charge up your nissan leaf every night. Gas is pretty cheap right now.

Gonna call bullshit right there. Costs about $8.50 to fully charge a p85d model s here in wa
 

Frankie

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
2,086
Gonna call bullshit right there. Costs about $8.50 to fully charge a p85d model s here in wa

Yeah I'm gonna need to see some math on that one.

Actually my 2013 Prius (I think it's a Prius 3) has a Camry engine for its gas engine and it feels quite powerful.

No it doesnt, and no it doesnt. The engine in the Prius is much smaller and less powerful than the Camrys. It only has ~130 total horsepower, If you think it feels powerful you need to stop driving 1960s Beetles.
 
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