Lol, this. I roll my eyes so hard when people think stuff like this matters.
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Elden Ring (From Software RPG)
- Thread starter polonyc2
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Lol, this. I roll my eyes so hard when people think stuff like this matters.
I copied my save game file right before the Melania fight and just as a test used the Mimic Tear spirit ash after raising it to +10...it was total easy mode...we wrecked her...the game is totally broken when using co-op of any kind...it's not even a game at that point- it's a total wreck every enemy simulation...I also tried with a summoning partner and it was even easier...total BS easy mode
I reverted back to my save and continue the struggle to beat her solo...it will happen eventually...up to this point I thought Sister Friede (Dark Souls 3) was the most difficult Souls boss to beat solo but Melania now takes the crown...I thought Friede was borderline impossible early on but eventually beat her solo
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TheSlySyl
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This is a harder boss fight than Malenia, and this isn't even the difficult version of the boss.
Uhh, Spoilers for Hollow Knight.
TheSlySyl
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If "this one super obvious in game mechanic that everyone has access too and is completely valid" makes a fight "easy mode" then, guess what, the fight is easy mode.
The game isn't "broken" when you utilize an ingame mechanic the way it's supposed to be used.. if it was actually broken it would be fixed in the multitude of balance patches that have came out. It hasn't been, so Mimic Tear +10 is a completely legitimate and in game, non-broken strategy.
How you want to challenge YOURSELF is a different story, and that's fine if you want to make the game harder for yourself. Brag about that all you want, But no one else is beholden to it.
Also, cause Mimic Tear AI is dumb as shit, any time I used a mimic tear on Malenia it actually made it harder because she would just heal off of it. But ymmv.
If "this one super obvious in game mechanic that everyone has access too and is completely valid" makes a fight "easy mode" then, guess what, the fight is easy mode.
The game isn't "broken" when you utilize an ingame mechanic the way it's supposed to be used.. if it was actually broken it would be fixed in the multitude of balance patches that have came out. It hasn't been, so Mimic Tear +10 is a completely legitimate and in game, non-broken strategy.
How you want to challenge YOURSELF is a different story, and that's fine if you want to make the game harder for yourself. Brag about that all you want, But no one else is beholden to it.
Also, cause Mimic Tear AI is dumb as shit, any time I used a mimic tear on Malenia it actually made it harder because she would just heal off of it. But ymmv.
I'm not expecting everyone to beat every boss solo like I do...I also feel co-op is totally valid for certain players to use...if it gets more players to try out the Dark Souls games then I'm all for it...my point is that people need to make it clear that they used co-op...in your initial post you stated that Melania was not that difficult without mentioning that you used co-op/spirit ashes...Melania IS very difficult and probably THE most difficult From Software boss if you play her solo
difficulty rankings are always based on beating bosses solo...there is no ranking system if you beat them with co-op or summoning or spirit ashes etc...it's also not about making the game harder for myself...it's the way the game was designed, the challenge is inherently built-in...it's very possible to beat all bosses solo
Domingo
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I bear Malenia completely alone with the Rivers of Blood and Freezing Pots. I just wanted to see if it was possible. It's actually the only time I used throwing items in the whole game, and it was just for shits and gigs with a backed up save. There are other weapons that can do similar things, but I rolled with katanas for 90% and it's a weapon I'd already been working with for a bit. Freezing pots can work with any build, though. They're the kryptonite to her jumps. If you look up different YouTube videos, there are cheese strategies and other exploits you can use, though.
In terms of harder bosses, I still think Sister Friede, Midir, Gael, and probably Lud and Zallen (mostly because of that damned level) are worse IMO. Mainly because most of them don't even have cheese approaches or dirty tricks to win. It's summons or nothing...and if there's no player base, you're kinda SOL.
In terms of harder bosses, I still think Sister Friede, Midir, Gael, and probably Lud and Zallen (mostly because of that damned level) are worse IMO. Mainly because most of them don't even have cheese approaches or dirty tricks to win. It's summons or nothing...and if there's no player base, you're kinda SOL.
TheSlySyl
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Yes, just like how you can't summon help in *checks notes*
...
...
..
Oh wait.
Every single damn game in the Souls franchise allows you to summon help. It's almost like its *encouraged*.
No one needs to justify shit to your little "I'm better than thou because I force myself to play solo like a TRuE SoULs VeT" ego.
...
...
..
Oh wait.
Every single damn game in the Souls franchise allows you to summon help. It's almost like its *encouraged*.
No one needs to justify shit to your little "I'm better than thou because I force myself to play solo like a TRuE SoULs VeT" ego.
it's not "encouraged"...the co-op aspects are in place to get more players to try out the game...otherwise you are left with the hard core skill players and that alone will get From Software bankrupt within 5 years...there's a huge difference both in terms of skill and overall satisfaction playing solo versus playing co-op
TheSlySyl
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I will say that I'm not a Fromsoft Connoisseur. Before Elden Ring I've only ever actually beaten Dark Souls (1). I bounced so hard off of DS2 that I never played 3, didn't have a PS4 to play Bloodborne and I played a fair amount of Demon's Souls back on the PS3 but that was a bit obtuse for me 15(?)+ years ago.
So there is a damn good chance Malenia IS the hardest boss in any From game, but I'll be well fucking disappointed if that's true as I do plan on finishing em someday and I always heard about how "difficult" they are and if Malenia is the worst that they have to offer then I'm gonna have a much easier time than expected.
So there is a damn good chance Malenia IS the hardest boss in any From game, but I'll be well fucking disappointed if that's true as I do plan on finishing em someday and I always heard about how "difficult" they are and if Malenia is the worst that they have to offer then I'm gonna have a much easier time than expected.
another reason for From Software adding the various co-op options...most people don't have the time or patience to spend hours on hours replaying bosses, learning their movesets etc...I never played Hollow Knight or Cuphead etc (I don't like the art design) but I'm guessing they don't have co-op...so you can't really compare beating those bosses solo versus beating a From Software boss using co-op...those are the complete opposite experiences
Comixbooks
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This game was really hard on my eyes the only reason I don't keep playing it.
I want to try it on a OLED monitor if those ever come out in smaller sizes 34" Alienware is too big for me.
I want to try it on a OLED monitor if those ever come out in smaller sizes 34" Alienware is too big for me.
TheSlySyl
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Cup Head can be 100% co-op from start to finish. However, with how Cuphead works, it's not any easier co-op and may actually be more difficult.
Domingo
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I appreciate that there are ways to test yourself in the various From/Souls games. I've managed to best every single boss in prior games solo at least once, but I recognize that as an artificial thing. I had to go out of my way to do so. Summons are a core mechanic of the game. I don't buy that they're just some crutch the devs added for "the casuals." They spent a lot of time and effort on those mechanics and if they were truly some kind of necessary evil to please the unwashed masses, where were they in Sekiro?
No clue where things stand right now, but at one time there was a staggering % of players that could never beat the first boss in DS3. The guy you run into roughly 10 minutes into the game. Yet that doesn't seem to have slowed down sales for that game or any others. Not using summons and not using certain tactics is a way of artificially challenging yourself. No different than not using ninja magic in Shinobi or refusing the spread gun in Contra. It's absolutely a badge of honor to do so, but it's a core mechanic you're avoiding strictly to prove a point.
No clue where things stand right now, but at one time there was a staggering % of players that could never beat the first boss in DS3. The guy you run into roughly 10 minutes into the game. Yet that doesn't seem to have slowed down sales for that game or any others. Not using summons and not using certain tactics is a way of artificially challenging yourself. No different than not using ninja magic in Shinobi or refusing the spread gun in Contra. It's absolutely a badge of honor to do so, but it's a core mechanic you're avoiding strictly to prove a point.
I think people are confusing what is considered an actual game mechanic...using strength, magic, faith buids etc are a mechanic...using co-op is not a mechanic, it's a way of making the game more accessible...Miyazaki has stated on the record that the games are not difficult for the sake of being difficult and how difficulty is used as a teaching tool to make the players better...I think the games are meant to be played solo with the option for co-op if you're at the point of rage quitting...or as a way for players to get through the game and come back in a later playthrough with the knowledge and skills required to beat them solo
Domingo
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The game design allows you to win every battle entirely by yourself by making it possible, but it doesn't mean that's how the devs intended you to play. Getting better doesn't mean solo'ing every boss in the game. Is leveling up making things more accessible? Does From want us all to solo the game at SL0? What about some weapons, spells, special attacks, etc. simply being better than others? Are we supposed to be striving to win with flails with no special attacks? Not using obvious tools the game gives you is a handicap you're giving yourself. That's great if you can do it, but it's self-imposed. What about invasions and PvP? Are the people that focus on those things misinterpreting the true vision of the game? Are those things there just to make things accessible to multiplayer VS. players...even if they can make things tougher?
Elden Ring throws a new summonable ash at you left and right, gives you a way to power them up, and has markers around every corner so you can activate them. The game is 100% built with using them in mind. They're a massive part of the game. You have to go out of your way not to use them. I think you're assuming that because you find the genre easy and are putting in like 300 hours into a totally no-summons NG playthrough that it's how the game was indented. Difficulty can still teach people to get better with summons and ashes in play. Most people consider the game extremely challenging even with summons. I don't care if you summoned help in every boss fight and you had escorts at every point you possibly could in the overworld - if you can win Elden Ring, you've accomplished something.
the From Software games are always balanced so that certain bosses are easier with certain builds...I don't understand what you're saying about Soul level 0 runs and invasions...Soul level 0 runs are not the way the game was intended to be played, it's just a fun way for players to challenge themselves...invasions just add an extra layer of danger to the game...with Elden Ring they've pretty much nerfed that as you need to opt into invasions which make it pointless as if you're opting in it usually means you're OP or have a gank squad of helpers
again weapon arts skills, faith vs magic vs pyromancy are mechanics (I use the Bloodhound's Finesse weapon arts skill all the time), co-op is there to make the game more accessible
I never said I found the From Software games 'easy'...I said using summons and co-op is easy mode...the challenge is a big part of why I love the games so much...Malenia is hard as hell solo but I love the satisfaction of progression and getting better...now I can dominate her 1st phase and need to find a way to get past her 2nd phase...the sense of exploration, level design, fashion Souls, build variety etc are unmatched
Miyazaki has stated that ER is their most accessible game...the Spirit Ashes are a big part of that...
Elden Ring director Miyazaki says he doesn't want new players 'to stress about difficulty'
https://www.pcgamer.com/elden-ring-...-want-new-players-to-stress-about-difficulty/
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schoolslave
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Oh the irony of watching YT videos of boss fights and manually copying save files around but simultaneously calling actual game mechanics like coop summons (FYI in the game since original Demon’s Souls - ie the OG souls-formula game) and new things like ashes not actual game mechanics? All this coming from the self-proclaimed “biggest fan of From games”. Did you even play Bloodborne by now or just watch that on YT as well?
Arguably watching other people beat the boss on YT is more retarded and less hardcore than playing the game blind and summoning a coop human player or AI. Since communication is so limited a coop human player can’t tell you anything about the boss you’re about to face. The coop system and limited communication via emotes, poses, and dropping flares is expertly designed and integrated into the game. Derping around with save files is decidedly not intended by the designers.
Also let’s not forget that Boss health scales significantly with more coop players. Really the most hardcore and only true way to properly beat a boss is to unequip everything, summon the max slot number of coop partners, enter the boss arena, banish all coop partners and never touch the Sunny-D flask. Anything else is not a real game mechanic, broken, and just crutches for casul gamers. See how stupid that sounds?
But whatever, it’s a mostly single player game and you do whatever you need to do to have fun!
Arguably watching other people beat the boss on YT is more retarded and less hardcore than playing the game blind and summoning a coop human player or AI. Since communication is so limited a coop human player can’t tell you anything about the boss you’re about to face. The coop system and limited communication via emotes, poses, and dropping flares is expertly designed and integrated into the game. Derping around with save files is decidedly not intended by the designers.
Also let’s not forget that Boss health scales significantly with more coop players. Really the most hardcore and only true way to properly beat a boss is to unequip everything, summon the max slot number of coop partners, enter the boss arena, banish all coop partners and never touch the Sunny-D flask. Anything else is not a real game mechanic, broken, and just crutches for casul gamers. See how stupid that sounds?
But whatever, it’s a mostly single player game and you do whatever you need to do to have fun!
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Bankie
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Saw this on Reddit today and it reminded me of this thread.
??...I'm copying my own save file as a backup not for any nefarious reasons...everyone should be backing up their saves in case you get invaded by some hacker...I copy my save so I can practice certain bosses even after I beat the game...I don't understand what you're trying to say with that...like I said I saved a backup copy and went and beat Melania with a Mimic Tear ash and co-op summon to prove that the game is easy mode with those tactics...the main point being that I then went back and reverted back to my backup to continue to try and beat her solo- the way it should be
I've said it multiple times that I do play my first playthrough blind and try not to use any walkthroughs or guides unless I'm really stuck on something...I did watch YouTube videos to see how other players beat her solo after dying to her 30+ times...I don't see your point again...if I watched the YouTube video prior to ever facing the boss then it would be a weak move
like I said a million times co-op is great in that it brings new players into the game who might have been too intimidated to try it without it...for that I'm all for it...we need the casuals to fund the developer so they continue to make more games...the game is a time sink playing solo and I get that as well...my point is that not just in video games but everything in life, you get way more satisfaction beating something by yourself versus relying on others to do it for you...anyone who beats bosses with co-op and then tells everyone how easy they are should put a disclaimer in their post...you don't rank boss difficulty based on using co-op, that's ridiculous
PS: I bought a PS4 just to play Bloodborne and yes I got the Platinum, same with Sekiro (on PC)...as far as game mechanics, yes technically the Spirit Ashes are a mechanic but in reality it's more of an accessibility feature to bring in new players...From Software is the best gaming studio in existence and they know they won't survive by catering only to the hard core skill players
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Bullitt
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Well, I'm not sure how to respond. Our different experiences with the game seem to the same outcome. Both of us enjoyed our experiences, and are seemingly quite eager to see the next installment of the game, whatever it may be; DLC, sequel, new IP, whatever. We're both fans.
What I don't think is going to happen is that the $60 that you're going to spend on the game and my $60 I'm going to spend on the game, are going to be any different to the publisher because of the effort and skill you demonstrated with that $60, vs my admittedly casual play-through ending up at level 170 by the time I got to the endgame, because I hit all the content.
We want the same thing, another good experience worthy of our time.
TheSlySyl
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No matter how easy or difficult a game is, if there is co-op then co-op is how I want to play. There is literally never a situation where I'd rather play a game solo over co-op.
Co-op makes games more fun.
I actually did end up beating Malenia on a difficulty harder than solo because on the fight I actually won, one of my two co-op summons dc'd and the other one died on phase one - so I did the entire second phase of the fight alone when she had more than double the base HP.
Does that make me better than you? Just because of how you're acting I'll leave that to you to decide.
Would I have been just as happy if I beat her with both of my co-op partners alive? Yeah, absolutely. I play games to have fun. I just happen to enjoy tough games as well and I'm usually pretty damn good at them. 30+ years experience and all .
Co-op makes games more fun.
I actually did end up beating Malenia on a difficulty harder than solo because on the fight I actually won, one of my two co-op summons dc'd and the other one died on phase one - so I did the entire second phase of the fight alone when she had more than double the base HP.
Does that make me better than you? Just because of how you're acting I'll leave that to you to decide.
Would I have been just as happy if I beat her with both of my co-op partners alive? Yeah, absolutely. I play games to have fun. I just happen to enjoy tough games as well and I'm usually pretty damn good at them. 30+ years experience and all .
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cvinh
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Lol the elitism in here is getting silly. Calling someone a casual just cause they use summons or cause this is their first Fromsoft game is why the gaming community is so toxic. Who cares how others play the game, just enjoy it for yourselves. If they thought a boss was easy with summons, it doesn't detract from your own experience and accomplishment. Calling them out on using a summon is just you trying to make yourself a "better" gamer somehow.
How about the people that made the 1 hit kill builds or 2 hit bleed builds? That's all using game mechanics but is that still "hardcore" because it isn't using summons?
If you wanna play the game solo cause you enjoy the challenge, do that. If you wanna play co op with your friends do that. It doesn't have to be a competition every time.
How about the people that made the 1 hit kill builds or 2 hit bleed builds? That's all using game mechanics but is that still "hardcore" because it isn't using summons?
If you wanna play the game solo cause you enjoy the challenge, do that. If you wanna play co op with your friends do that. It doesn't have to be a competition every time.
agreed...back to the topic of the game!...I'm still stuck on Melania Phase 2...she's getting me frustrated...I'm at Level 113 so I'm thinking about continuing to the end of the game and coming back to her later
Domingo
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Supposedly most people win the game somewhere between level 120 and 140. I was on the 140'ish side of things. Those extra levels can give you quite a few more HP (or stats that let you wear better armor), which could make a difference in certain fights.
Even rolling eyes expends too much energy. You pat dum-dums on the head and move on without a care.
Learning movesets is hardly a skill, it's just an expression and function of free time.
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TheSlySyl
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I was definitely closer to 170-180 when I fought melania, but she was also the literal last thing I did in the game except for the final boss(es). I did all 3 in one day.
Same here. Didn’t farm really either except for a handful of times when I was close to a new level and didn’t want to risk 100k+ runes. I think I saw most of what the game has to offer but not all.
Certainly will play through it again but not yet. I started DS3 instead for the second or third time and finally beat the first boss, lol.
I stopped leveling up once I hit the soft caps- 55 STR, 40 Vigor and 45 Endurance (50 is the soft cap)...I've been holding on to (and losing) close to 500,000 runes sometimes because I didn't have anything to spend it on...I guess I should hit 50 Endurance and maybe a bit more Vigor as well...I didn't need the extra levels up to this point and actually beat a lot of the bosses while under-leveled but Malania requires a change of plan
TheSlySyl
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Unless you're a pro, you should carry your vigor to around 58-ish or so, it makes the last 1/3 of the game a lot more palatable.
I just googled elden ring vigor, and the top comment from fextralife I agree with: "40 vigor in this game is what 27 vigor was in ds3. 60 vigor in this game is what 40 vigor in ds3 was."
thanks for the info...I was using the soft caps based on Fextralife's Elden Ring Stats page
https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Stats
Domingo
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Even with the various "soft" caps - having shitloads of HP is never a bad idea. Especially considering the amount of runes you're starting to rake in late in the game. Killing one boss near the end of the game will give you enough runes to buy at least one of literally every single item from every merchant in the game. Might as well give yourself some more HP or enough endurance to wear the best armors (and carry multiple weapons) without fat rolling. In NG+, you'll have so many runes that you can be super powerful in 3-4 different categories and still rock heavy weapons/gear with a boatload of HP.
I noticed that as well...some late game bosses give you 450,000 runes...it's easy to get runes in this game...I also had a ton of those consumable runes...I bought the max number of bolts, arrows etc
Domingo
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I found myself gaining levels in bursts, but in the endgame areas especially. I'd get 3-4 levels for killing a single boss. Some areas would have several bosses in them. That left me with runes leftover to go a buy up all of the various armor sets and weapons being sold around the world. Merchants are conveniently marked on your map, so it's easy to do that. You can also kill them all and use their bells so their gear is sold by the sisters. That's way more convenient, although I suppose eradicating everyone might affect the DLC at some point, too. Either way, I think I full-on decided to stop leveling at 145 in my first pass. That was with all bosses dead, all NPC's dead, and probably 95% of all possible things found/completed. For the first 1/2 of NG+, I probably only gained 15-20 more levels. By the end, you'll end up gaining 3-4 levels per boss again, though. I went all the way to 255 and only intentionally grinded the last couple levels so I could use specific gear.
what an absolutely beautiful Dragonlord Placidusax boss fight...the design of the boss and arena were gorgeous...this is From Software's masterpiece and I don't know how they can top this...the level design, enemy design, environments, weapons, armor, story, NPC's, graphics are all the best they've ever done
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Bullitt
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fuck that guy..... that was my worst fight in the game. I raged quite a bit over that fight.
Domingo
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I fought almost all of the dragons the exact same way - just keep wailing on their back legs and alternate back and forth. You get bonus headshot damage, but it's kinda risky to even be up there. I recall Placidusax also doing some divebombs in the second half of that fight but they were telegraphed...although they also kept creating distance between you and him, too. Every now and then dragons will instakill you with their breath if you're out of place. That definitely happened to me a time or two.
TheSlySyl
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I found every dragon kinda boring and underwhelming. The only real difficulty, and it was just artificially bullshit, was fighting the triple dragons simultaneously outside of the moon shrine.
They're just all kinda samey and the same technique that worked on the first one in the swamp worked on all the rest. Which was basically hide underneath em when they're on the ground and run like hell when they take off.
Placidusax (sure I spelled that wrong) at least had some visually awesome moves. I did die a a couple times on them because I simply didn't know what the hell was happening next.
I 100% blame the fact that I've killed literally hundreds of Elder Dragons in Monster Hunter, every single one being a more interesting fight than an Elden Ring Dragon. More varied attacks, better hitboxes, attacking certain body parts matters, more terrain interaction, etc.
*Goes back to fight Malzeno on MHR:S for the 20th time because I need those fucking fellwings*
They're just all kinda samey and the same technique that worked on the first one in the swamp worked on all the rest. Which was basically hide underneath em when they're on the ground and run like hell when they take off.
Placidusax (sure I spelled that wrong) at least had some visually awesome moves. I did die a a couple times on them because I simply didn't know what the hell was happening next.
I 100% blame the fact that I've killed literally hundreds of Elder Dragons in Monster Hunter, every single one being a more interesting fight than an Elden Ring Dragon. More varied attacks, better hitboxes, attacking certain body parts matters, more terrain interaction, etc.
*Goes back to fight Malzeno on MHR:S for the 20th time because I need those fucking fellwings*
I feel for 99% of people being called a casual at something like gaming is a compliment or perfectly neutral at worst, not an insult. Not sure if or how elitism can be an issue to something like videogames,
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casual is not even an insult...a casual gamer is someone who just wants to finish a game and is not trying to dominate or become really good at the game...lots of games now have a Discovery mode where combat is either eliminated altogether or severely reduced so people can experience the game without having to worry about 'gitting gud'...not everyone needs to be able to beat every boss solo, it's just a badge of honor