At that point, you'd be glad to have leaky fittings instead of being turned into a toad.
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EKWB Lays Off 25% of Workforce, Blames Lower Watercooling Sales
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At that point, you'd be glad to have leaky fittings instead of being turned into a toad.
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Zarathustra[H]
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True, but you don't know what they do on their end to ensure quality. There could be inspection and test of received goods back in Slovenia, which would add significant cost. (I don't know for sure what they do, I do not have access to their processes)
Zarathustra[H]
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Lol
hititnquitit
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Byski and Barrow both make solid gear. I'm running my second Byski GPU block and couldn't be more pleased at their durability, performance and cost. My old 2070 block looks brand new after 3 or 4 years(I forget). All of my bajillion fittings are Byski hardline compressions and I can say with confidence they are top notch after 3+ years. 4 internal o-rings per fitting make it a pita to remove them from tubing much less leak. It's easier to just crush the tubing with pliers and yank it out vs slowwwly working it out for a half an hour. They cost half what BP, EK, etc fittings cost and none of my rotaries have turned into plant sprayers like the latter did overtime ( I've tried them all). Been using Barrow tubing for the same time frame with no fading or discoloration. It's cheap as chips to boot.
I've completely written EK off. Their prices have gone full on stupid over the last 5-7 years. There's far too much competition out there to waste my money on their gear anymore. This is coming from someone who had used EK blocks exclusively since the 8800gtx days.
I managed to hang onto my Heatkiller IV CPU block for another iteration by going with a socket 1700 upgrade bracket and backplate for a whopping $35 shipped vs $125-$150 for new and my GPU block was half what everyone else was asking at $110 shipped. So, $145 to bring my CPU and GPU into the modern era ain't to shabby lol.
I have nothing bad to say about my Chinese gear. As long as it keeps performing, I don't care where they make it. Everything else is too ridiculously overpriced for this old schooler. Sadly, I have very little good to say about EK. They do have solid tech and c/s. I've had really good luck dealing with them. They actually respond to emails...well they used to at least. They also used to be heavily involved in the wcing community back in the day but that's changed quite a bit as well. I assume they got sick of getting ragged on.
I've completely written EK off. Their prices have gone full on stupid over the last 5-7 years. There's far too much competition out there to waste my money on their gear anymore. This is coming from someone who had used EK blocks exclusively since the 8800gtx days.
I managed to hang onto my Heatkiller IV CPU block for another iteration by going with a socket 1700 upgrade bracket and backplate for a whopping $35 shipped vs $125-$150 for new and my GPU block was half what everyone else was asking at $110 shipped. So, $145 to bring my CPU and GPU into the modern era ain't to shabby lol.
I have nothing bad to say about my Chinese gear. As long as it keeps performing, I don't care where they make it. Everything else is too ridiculously overpriced for this old schooler. Sadly, I have very little good to say about EK. They do have solid tech and c/s. I've had really good luck dealing with them. They actually respond to emails...well they used to at least. They also used to be heavily involved in the wcing community back in the day but that's changed quite a bit as well. I assume they got sick of getting ragged on.
xDiVolatilX
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I'll admit I'm a sucker for EK water blocks even if they are more expensive although for radiators I only buy alpha cool and for fittings bitspower. They might be more expensive but they do always have the performance to back it up and the reliability
DukenukemX
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My concern is the water pump as I don't need that failing and killing my PC. Radiators from Aliexpress are fine so long as they're made of copper cause you don't want to mix copper and aluminum in your system. Good water pumps are hard to find. I'd be fine with this one from Amazon because it reminds me of Laing pumps. Still got one running for several years in a PC running 24/7.
https://www.amazon.com/ASHATA-Cooling-Computer-Temperature-Discharge/dp/B0819K9QXC
Good airflow makes for a noisy case. Plus those heatsinks are heavy enough to bend a motherboard. I'm also not a fan of dumping heat in my computer case only to heat up the surrounding components like the GPU. With a custom loop it just dumps it out of the case and you don't worry about that. Also a custom loop still cools better. Also the price of some of these air coolers are reaching the price of building your own custom loop.
Like the Noctua NH-D15 for $100.
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NH-D1...mzn1.fos.c1e7b9a2-53cf-44f5-ab39-5386af17669d
Or the be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 for $90.
https://www.amazon.com/quiet-Dark-R...mzn1.fos.c1e7b9a2-53cf-44f5-ab39-5386af17669d
They're all made in China but the idea is the stuff managed by none Chinese companies have hopefully better quality control. They generally don't.
A custom loop for anything real costs around $500-$600. None of those air coolers are anywhere near that?
DukenukemX
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Obviously not a custom loop built with parts from EKWB.
This is the CPU water block I'm using in one of my Ryzen systems. $25
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255...1!sea!US!704675988&curPageLogUid=iiyrNvDxGRcT
This is the radiator I'm using in my main system. $35
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251...1!sea!US!704675988&curPageLogUid=7RKm8qcpD7Q6
Get that $50 pump from Amazon and you're a little over the price of one of those coolers. Fittings and hosing isn't expensive unless you go with compressing fittings, and even those are cheap from Aliexpress.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255...7!sea!US!704675988&curPageLogUid=4TAaSzoUeK5y
You don't need a reservoir but it helps plus you can buy pumps that come with them included. I got something similar to this 5.25" reservoir so that I see the bubbling flow in front of my PC. Plus I get to use one of my empty 5.25" drive bays cause nobody uses them anymore. It's $50 but I don't remember paying that much for mine.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804245053932.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
hititnquitit
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VSG over at TPU did a review of Byskis rads last year (may have been 2021). They are really solid performers and well built (copper/brass).
They clobbered alot of well known brands in the price to performance metric.
I actually used to keep an Excel spreadsheet of low cost wcing parts for my budget builds. I had it down to around $2-$225 for a 360 HWL L-series (not anymore, these have gone way up), CPU block- Amazon no name cheapie, Laing DDC 3.2, Alphacool res/top and all of the tubing fittings. Then FrozenCPU stopped carrying the $50 ddc 3.2 that the loop was based on. So I stopped keeping track of everything else. The CPU block was the hardest to keep on budget. If you find a reliable DDC type pump I can see a $200 loop being doable today. I've wanted to try the black impeller/rotor DDC knock offs from AliExpress but never got around to it. The thing that has held me back was the plastic bearing.
They clobbered alot of well known brands in the price to performance metric.
I actually used to keep an Excel spreadsheet of low cost wcing parts for my budget builds. I had it down to around $2-$225 for a 360 HWL L-series (not anymore, these have gone way up), CPU block- Amazon no name cheapie, Laing DDC 3.2, Alphacool res/top and all of the tubing fittings. Then FrozenCPU stopped carrying the $50 ddc 3.2 that the loop was based on. So I stopped keeping track of everything else. The CPU block was the hardest to keep on budget. If you find a reliable DDC type pump I can see a $200 loop being doable today. I've wanted to try the black impeller/rotor DDC knock offs from AliExpress but never got around to it. The thing that has held me back was the plastic bearing.
barrow is taiwanese? I thought they were chinese.
Ah. I've always gone with designed ones and name brands, admittedly (especially since EK has the excellent designer to see what fits) - and I'm rarely buying anything from aliexpress in general. And if the box has a 5.25 bay, it's got an icydock adapter in it already for more drives. Most of my systems are air cooled as they're on 24/7/5-7 years, and there are too many of them to spend time maintaining that many loops. Plus most of my cases for actual active systems (like my WCed ones) don't have bays anymore, for better or worse, only the servers.
Wouldn't filling that res suck? Have to pull it out of the system or something to get a line in there to add more liquid. I've always done things like:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...rec!US!&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
hititnquitit
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If you run an automotive coolant, distilled mix (ethylene glycol) you can go years without doing any serious maintenance. I've gone as long as 5 years without touching a loop with coolant and distilled. Only needed to top it off occasionally.Ah. I've always gone with designed ones and name brands, admittedly (especially since EK has the excellent designer to see what fits) - and I'm rarely buying anything from aliexpress in general. And if the box has a 5.25 bay, it's got an icydock adapter in it already for more drives. Most of my systems are air cooled as they're on 24/7/5-7 years, and there are too many of them to spend time maintaining that many loops. Plus most of my cases for actual active systems (like my WCed ones) don't have bays anymore, for better or worse, only the servers.
Wouldn't filling that res suck? Have to pull it out of the system or something to get a line in there to add more liquid. I've always done things like:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804276280680.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.0.0.324f2992ZhATTL&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.291025.0&scm_id=1007.13339.291025.0&scm-url=1007.13339.291025.0&pvid=5a358d52-4ea5-40b3-8495-09c2c9f86b15&_t=gps-idcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller,scm-url:1007.13339.291025.0,pvid:5a358d52-4ea5-40b3-8495-09c2c9f86b15,tpp_buckets:668#2846#8113#1998&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000029286910936","sceneId":"3339"}&pdp_npi=3@dis!USD!120.18!120.18!!!!!@2103239b16771717532077837ee543!12000029286910936!rec!US!&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US
Bay reservoirs are really easy to fill. You leave yourself a couple of extra inches of tubing. Then pull the res thru the front of the case and it's ready to go.
Ah. I've always gone with designed ones and name brands, admittedly (especially since EK has the excellent designer to see what fits) - and I'm rarely buying anything from aliexpress in general. And if the box has a 5.25 bay, it's got an icydock adapter in it already for more drives. Most of my systems are air cooled as they're on 24/7/5-7 years, and there are too many of them to spend time maintaining that many loops. Plus most of my cases for actual active systems (like my WCed ones) don't have bays anymore, for better or worse, only the servers.
Wouldn't filling that res suck? Have to pull it out of the system or something to get a line in there to add more liquid. I've always done things like:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804276280680.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.0.0.324f2992ZhATTL&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.291025.0&scm_id=1007.13339.291025.0&scm-url=1007.13339.291025.0&pvid=5a358d52-4ea5-40b3-8495-09c2c9f86b15&_t=gps-id
I think you could connect a hose to a distro plates fill port. I've done that with a switch res on pump setup similar to the one you link. It's permanently attached with a screw cap on the end and long enough i can use a funnel and pour outside the case.
Zarathustra[H]
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I think that is a little bit of an exhaggeration.
No way you are going to build a custom loop for under a few hundred bucks.
My first WC build wound up costing me about $850, when accounting for two medium sized radiators, a CPU block, a GPU block, reservoir, pump, 12 compression fittings, tubing a sealing plug and a couple of temperature probes.
Since then my water loop has become more complex, and things have become more expensive. I bet I have $1500+ in just water cooling parts in my case right now.
So yeah, air coolers may be getting pricier, but they are not exactly getting close to the cost of building a water loop.
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NightReaver
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It's very possible if you don't have an issue buying from and waiting for Aliexpress. Not even the no name wish.com sort of junk, either. Especially if you catch one of the various super sales, you can make out pretty well.
And no, it's not just "Chinese copies of Western stuff", because at that point might as well call every single D5 pump a copy, every single water block that uses machined acrylic/o-rings, etc. We get it, you want only name brand. Many of us are a lot less fussy about it. My 1st custom loop used PEX and offbrand sharkbites. Didn't even use g1/4 threading, used NPT with plumber's tape and literally car radiator fluid.
Zarathustra[H]
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Well, shit.
I went out and did a quick guesstimate of the parts in my loop and looked up their current prices, and I guess I was quite significantly off in my cost estimate of the parts currently in my loop.
I'm actually a little bit embarrassed to say that that if I were to go out and buy the parts in my loop at today's prices, it would cost me almost $3,850. And that's just water loop specific parts (including radiator fans, though some of those I'd probably need for airflow even if I had air coolers, but the case fans would have been cheaper...)
This is not intended as a flex. I'm actually kind of embarrassed at my rather extravagant water loop spending.
IN my defense I'll say that I bought most of these parts back before inflation when they were much cheaper, and much of the investment represents a bit by bit a few pieces here or there over many years, so the total kind of snuck up on me.
My more mainstream build cost me about $850, but that was 8 years ago.
Today, I could probably throw together a basic $500 loop, but I would be really cutting corners to make that budget work.
Not sure I could get much below $500 with off the shelf WC parts. If I want to take the DIY approach and use handy things to make my own, I probably could though, but I'm not sure I'd want to make reservoirs out of shampoo bottles, etc. It's not 2001 anymore
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Forgot a few items. Added them.
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Gotta have some liquid in the pump, wherever it is - thinking that the pump is part of hte plate?
Still permeates. With that many systems it would really suck to try and maintain - hence why I use air on most things. Worst case then it gets slow after a few years and I go swap a fan.
No shit when it can get expensive when you go over the top.
Zara went over. I only have two rads. Mine cost 500 or so
Yea I got 2 rad, pump/res, CPU ,GPU block and all the fitting and I don't think I spent more then $600.
I will say, I planned on an insane build for my x299 box (Corsair 1000D), but ended up going air cooled because time and $$.
When I finally upgrade that system to sapphire rapids (assuming that TR is still better for my main), then I MAY finally WC it - and that will be 4 rads, 12 fans, etc.
You don't really need all that but I get it. You want to fill ever space possible with rads and fan in the HUGE case. Believe me I wanted to go all out like that too but can't justify the cost.
Well, when you have an overclocked Xeon with 28+ cores and a GPU and... yeah, it adds up fast. In that case I want ~silent~ too.
DukenukemX
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I built four for around $100 or less each. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Most of my systems are running 120mm rads because I'm not pushing those systems. My main system is running 240 and I barely go above 60C when playing games.
My first water cooling loop was from a Evercool kit that came with everything you needed for about $100. It eventually clogged and overheated my AMD FX 4200 that I overclocked. The reason was the coolant that didn't stop algae from growing and also eroding away the aluminum in the system. This is when I gave up on water cooling for years and then revisited it only to have the same problem yet again. The issue was the coolant as I bought coolant specifically for PC water cooling. This is why people say you need to drain and fill a custom loop every 6 months to prevent this from happening. Or as I've discovered, just use car coolant. You don't need to mix that much with distilled water to get the benefits and it barely effects the coolant capabilities of the system.
Some people said you can use Wetter Water instead of car coolant and only a cap full is needed, but I've never tried this myself. I have mixed this in with existing coolant mix for giggles.
DWolvin
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Water Wetter is great stuff, but doesn't' prevent growth or corrosion. I'm on the 'get a good premix or auto coolant' crowd. I'm using Mayhems (XT1 I think), and have never had a problem that wasn't my fault. And also have never drained for anything other than an upgrade / parts swap.
Zarathustra[H]
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The problem with automotive coolant products is that they usually include additives intended for the metal compositions and plastic and rubber hoses of cars. At best they are just unneeded for PC water loops, but at worst they can have unintended side effects that can gum up the fine channels in water blocks.
Car applications don't have those same microchannel considerations to deal with. They are usually larger and dumber channels, less likely to gum up. PC stuff is more sensitive.
Some like just distilled water and a kill coil. This could work, but introduces a lot of free silver ions into the loop, which can have unintended side effects. As can those old PT Nuke copper sulfate additives, which is why you don't see them much anymore. That, and surface tension will still be an issue.
I tend to think that ethylene glycol is one of the better solutions as in the right concentration it as it serves as all three things you want, a surfactant, a corrosion inhibitor AND a biocide, but corrosion and biological growth can still happen, unless you get the balance just right. Ethylene glycol also has some material compatibility issues, (I think it can cause cracking in PETG?). You can use propylene glycol to avoid these material compatibility issues, but Propylene Glycol is not as effective, and requires higher concentrations, which increases viscosity and reduces flow a bit.
There are many considerations.
Because I am neither a materials scientist or a chemist, I have decided its just best to use coolants formulated for me by those who have actually put in the hours in testing, which is why I have been using EK's Cryofuel line. I started using their coolants back when I first started watercooling, as EK's nickel coating issue was in the news at the time, and there were unknowns as to what was causing it. EK was pointing the finger at the use of certain loop additives as part of the problem. Because the only GPU block I could find at the time was a nickel coated EK block, I wanted to make absolutely sure I wasn't going to damage it, so I figured what better choice than EK's own fluids. They will have tested them to make sure they work, right?
I have continued using them since, as every time I have looked at the blocks after use (and abuse, sometimes using the same fluid for ~3 years or more) they come out looking perfectly clean. I could probably come up with something on my own that is cheaper, but it would be an unknown, when I have a known good one that works. Yes, at ~$22 (used to be $12, I think) per bottle of concentrate that results in a liter of coolant, it has some cost, but compared to the cost of the loop it is a drop in the ocean.
I am considering building an "out of room" loop that will require MUCH greater amounts of coolant than I currently use. I have estimated maybe ~8 gallons between the amount in the tubing and the custom large reservoir I need. This will make EK's coolants unaffordable. I don't want to spend over $500 on coolants every two years. If/when that build happens I will have to figure out something else.
I have tried to read up, but there is very little good research on the topic of DIY coolants out there, and much of what does exist is conflicting information. Source A will say "this is great, I have used ti for a long time" whereas source B will say that same coolant is a problem.
Long story short. Unless you need massive quantities like I might, it is probably best to just spend the $25 for something like EK's Cryofuel and have peace of mind.
kamikazi
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When in doubt...
Koolance 702 Liquid Coolant, High-Performance, Colorless, 5000ml (169 fl oz) $108.99, that's what I did.
They actually have the 700ml bottles marked down to $13.95 at the moment. A couple of years ago, you couldn't find this stuff anywhere but eBay or on back order.
NightReaver
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Insane prices, geez. Will stick with proven distilled water.
Zarathustra[H]
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I'm not familliar with that stuff, but I will read up on it. Thanks for the link.
kamikazi
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I updated to show 700 ml bottles for $13.95. Performance PCs usually carries it as well.
kamikazi
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It's good stuff, made for industrial use and spec'd to last 2 to 3 years before replacement. I ran some for a year before an upgrade and it had just slightly picked up a little color when looking through the reservoir, no cloudiness and no crud. All of the parts looked clean when I disassembled them. They also have a less conductive version, but I have never used it.
Zarathustra[H]
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Distilled water does not have corrosion inhibitors, lacks surfactants (so it will trap air) and will require biocide additives which can potentially cause issues.
Anything that causes metal ions to flow through the loop (like silver kill coils, or copper sulfate type biocides like PT Nuke) can also further exacerbate corrosion.
There are huge fans of "distilled water + silver kill coil" who claim it is proven and work well, yet at the same time you hear complaints in forums about nickel coatings deteriorating and other corrosion, and when it happens no one ever blames their water + kill coil, they just point the finger at the block maker
Meanwhile I have nickel coated blocks that have been in use for years that look as clean as they day they arrived, with no signs at all of corrosion.
But the problem - as always - is that most of this stuff is anecdotal. I'm not aware of any decent sample size tests of coolant compatibility with various types of blocks. Even the few review sites that have tackled the issue have only tested onesy twosies.
Zarathustra[H]
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Come to think of it, 5L for over $100 is about the same price as EK's Cryofuel concentrates.
While mostly negligible in a typical water cooling build, it's going to be pricy if I need 30-35L of the stuff
NightReaver
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Idk. Again I think people are just being too fussy, but then again I'd never drop a grand to do watercooling. PC waterloops really aren't some feat of engineering that require hard documentation and whatnot. But hey, whatever puts your mind to ease. At the end of the day it's all about what you trust.
hititnquitit
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Koolance 702 is good stuff. I've been using it for 3 or 4 years now. I've actually got 4 bottles of it on the shelf waiting for me to get off my ass and reconfigure my loop. PT Nuke PHN is also good stuff (no longer available). The copper sulfate version is the shit to avoid if you have copper/nickel blocks.
Trying to find inexpensive coolants in large quantities is going to be well nigh impossible today (anything decent has the wcing tax attached now). Particularly if your averse to using automotive coolant/distilled mixes. That's about the only thing I can think of that's cheap enough for an 8 gallon loop.
Trying to find inexpensive coolants in large quantities is going to be well nigh impossible today (anything decent has the wcing tax attached now). Particularly if your averse to using automotive coolant/distilled mixes. That's about the only thing I can think of that's cheap enough for an 8 gallon loop.
NightReaver
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This is my real issue with EK and the rest of em'. Absolutely ridiculous how much of a 'tax' everything has.
Zarathustra[H]
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Yeah, and it is relatively recent. Even only a few years ago waterblocks from major manufacturers were still reasonably priced. Now they are insane. My EK GPU fullcover block for my 4090 cost me $270. A few years back a fullcover block was about a hundred bucks. Less so before that.
The whole industry has gone to hell in the last 5 years. They are all looking at eachother and thingking, heck, if Nvidia can justify charging $1600 for a GPU, why cant I also do something stupid. it looks like they will buy it anyway...
NightReaver
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I remember scoffing at $4 compressions. Oh, what innocent times...
Zarathustra[H]
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Yep.
I mean, some of that is going to be inflation, but inflation topped out at - what - 9% YoY?
Inflation does compound, but now the same XSPC compression fittings I bought for a few bucks a piece 2016 are $25 for a four pack, which isn't even that bad compared to what some of them cost nowadays.