discussing the warez problem

[HoosierDad]

I think we will cease to her from Looooooooopie shortly.

 

[[BB] Rick James]

What's the point of this?

 

[HoosierDad]

Like I said. Immature people that won't deal with the truth. They always have to assign an excuse to whatever they do.

 

[RagingGecko]

What's the point of this?

Because some 12 year old got on his parents computer and thinks he's being e-cool. Man, some people are really sad. I mean, are you THAT bored that you find it entertaining? Go smoke some pot or drink yourself to death instead, at least you wouldn't be bothering us here.

 

[TekieB]

Wow, it looks like we have some 10 year old warez kiddies spamming the forum, can you say "b7" ?

And to the kiddies, just cause you are mad that your mom stopped you from playing CS doesn't mean you need to go download doom3, and then come spam our boards with pictures like that

 

[HoosierDad]

I thinks it time for a few rounds of Medal of Honor.

By Looooooopie.

HoosierDad

 

[TekieB]

And oh yeah, if you are running mozilla, just right click the pic, and hit "block images from..." it proves useful for reading replies and not staring at stuff like this

 

[Tazman2]

This is a free country. This is capitalism at work. If you don't like it go to a communist country and let the government take care of you.

Now grow up.

Why move to one when this one is slowly becoming one...

 

[RagingGecko]

And oh yeah, if you are running mozilla, just right click the pic, and hit "block images from..." it proves useful for reading replies and not staring at stuff like this

Thank you, although ignore is easier. It's not like he's posting anything worth reading, and it just makes you scroll past really long posts of nothing.

 

[Alex A.]

And oh yeah, if you are running mozilla, just right click the pic, and hit "block images from..." it proves useful for reading replies and not staring at stuff like this

You are the Man thanks

 

[TekieB]

Problem solved

I was more saying the block images cause i really don't like looking at pictures of pen0ses

Now back onto discousion, this country is becomming communistic. They are even starting to censor stuff, take Stern for example

 

[PiratePowWow]

Crap Ice Czar, you were right for locking this thread, It's been a while since I've seen an intelligent post (I think you made the last one, but you may never read this because you have given up on this thread altogether).

I think it was torga or Torgo who said they have yet to meet anyone who agrees warez is morally right.

I think that warez to preview a game is morally right.
I think that warez can be morally right.

For those of you caught up in communism, I apologize for bringing this thread back to home base and on-topic.

In a post I made a while back I said that someone who hypothetically downloaded a pirated version of a game and thought that the game was good, but not good enough for the asking price could, rather than buy the game or just keep the pirated version (the two extremes) send the developer of the game the amount of money they think the developer deserves. As an alternative to this idealistic scenario one could choose to buy the next mediocre game developed from the same company at full asking price.

This system relies on the public's morals, however the current system also relies on the consumer's morals. The fact is that if all the consumers had bad morals then no one would ever buy a game since they know that it is possible for them to download it.

So, why is this system better than the current system?
It's simple, this system keeps the developers from starving and also provides the consumer with the utmost of customer satisfaction. With this system the customer does indeed get exactly what he/she pays for and the developers get what they deserve.

Of course there will be the outright theives. My answer to that is find them and prosecute them, but do not ever infringe on the rights of the paying customers.

I will introduce another warez scenario:

Buying games as a group.
Basically this means that you and one or more of your friends either cannot afford a game individually or do not think the asking price of the game is worth the game itself. To remedy this scenario and to benefit both parties, you and your friends and the other party, the developer, anyways to remedy this you each pitch in what you think the game is worth to you in order to buy a single copy or if between say three of you, two copies of a game. You then make full "backups" of the game in order to accomodate the number of purchasers.

This is a great system. It is right for both sides. The customer is ultimately satisfied, and gets exactly what he/she paid for. At the same time the developer is ultimately satisfied because they have made a sale which they would otherwise not have made.

Truly I do not expect the current economic scene regarding games to change. It is satisfaction from both parties I want, it is only satisfaction from both parties that truly matters. The great thing about satisfaction is that it comes from within. You really do not have to change anything on the outside to experience it, all you have to do is remove clouds of greed and realize that there are good things people do and there are bad things people do. There always will be. Encourage the good things people do and enlighten the people who are doing wrongly even though it may or may not help.

So I am content with how much I pay for video games, and I am also content with the enjoyment I receive from them. Should anyone demand anything more of me?

 

[doh-nut]

This is a great system. It is right for both sides. The customer is ultimately satisfied, and gets exactly what he/she paid for. At the same time the developer is ultimately satisfied because they have made a sale which they would otherwise not have made.

so even though the developer deserves a tbone steak for what he paid, he gets a few scraps of bread on the floor and should be happy? right.. 'great' system indeed.

 

[emorphien]

so even though the developer deserves a tbone steak for what he paid, he gets a few scraps of bread on the floor and should be happy? right.. 'great' system indeed.

Sounds Gr-r-r-r-r-r-eat!

 

[PiratePowWow]

If you think the developer deserves a tbone steak, you give him one *refrains from namecalling.

 

[doh-nut]

see the problem is, you are wrong for thinking you decide what the developer deserves. what they deserve is constant in the same way you deserve to be punished for committing a crime.

 

[emorphien]

doh-nut, perhaps the issue is that perhaps the developer deserves it, but they're not getting it. Or we can also be at odds about how much they really truly deserve.

I don't know how bad the gaming industry is, but the recording industry severely limits how much the artists gets, the majority of the money goes to the middle man. I don't know about you but I think that's wrong and don't like it one bit. So how much does the developer really get, versus the publisher for example?

 

[doh-nut]

doh-nut, perhaps the issue is that perhaps the developer deserves it, but they're not getting it. Or we can also be at odds about how much they really truly deserve.

I don't know how bad the gaming industry is, but the recording industry severely limits how much the artists gets, the majority of the money goes to the middle man. I don't know about you but I think that's wrong and don't like it one bit. So how much does the developer really get, versus the publisher for example?

i dont know. although i do know that with Valve software, they get much more profit if you order HL2 off steam, as opposed to buying a store bought copy. which is why im buying it off steam and recommending other people do too.

but with the music industry, people dont like the middleman, so then they choose to not pay money so that the middleman gets nothing, what they don realize is they are affecting the entire band entity, not just the middleman, and they end up screwing over the artist, because eventually the lack of success comes down to them.

 

[emorphien]

i dont know. although i do know that with Valve software, they get much more profit if you order HL2 off steam, as opposed to buying a store bought copy. which is why im buying it off steam and recommending other people do too.

but with the music industry, people dont like the middleman, so then they choose to not pay money so that the middleman gets nothing, what they don realize is they are affecting the entire band entity, not just the middleman, and they end up screwing over the artist, because eventually the lack of success comes down to them.

Right, which is why the argument against warez isn't always that clear cut. The whole damn system can be quite corrupt.

 

[NeghVar]

I don't know how bad the gaming industry is, but the recording industry severely limits how much the artists gets, the majority of the money goes to the middle man. I don't know about you but I think that's wrong and don't like it one bit. So how much does the developer really get, versus the publisher for example?

The main purpose for RIAA acting the way they are, is that the internet has the potential to decentralize the music industry. Thus removing the middle man, RIAA. This is not about the artist, its about the existance of RIAA. Their marketing structure is becoming endangered and they'll do whatever they can to prevent that. They don't care what rights and privacies they trample over as long as they prevent/make illegal new technologies and innovations that can harm their existance.

I can;t stand how they say the artist don't get paid because of DL. BS! The RIAA and publishers rape them of their earnings. They only get a single digit percent. With the internet and the price of the nesseccary technology dropping, the artists are begining to break off from RIAA and go independent. Thus once again, RIAA wants to destroy this threat to their existance. They're bribing and blackmailing the judges and congressmen to do their bidding. Especially Utah senator Orin "down the" Hatch. I hope he loses his seat to another. I don't care if the replacement is a democrat either, just get him out of office

 

[agent420]

Lets say you get 20 hours of gameplay out of it, all for $55. What else in life can you get that much entertainment for $55?

I got 20 hours of entertainment out of a $5 tab of acid at a Dead show...

... And scanning some of the stupid posts I see around here in the last day is almost as entertaining for FREE.

[edit] Not to imply moralpanic's post was stupid, just couldn't resist the quote

 

[bipolar]

In a nutshell...

PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?

I think you're missing the point a bit. At one point, it was illegal for women to vote, for blacks to be free, for anyone to buy alcohol, and so on. The question isn't whether it *is* illegal -- that's obvious -- but whether it *should be*. Surely just because there is a law, that doesn't by default make it a good law.

 

[Loath]

There is no "justified" about it. Warez is illegal, because it's STEALING. If it feels like "cracking" or whatever, it's still illegal. It is an issue that, unfortunately, no one can do a whole lot about.

It's like speeding. Lots of people do it, and police are forced to concentrate only on the worst offenders. You might not get caught, but it's still stealing something that lots of highly educated people put years of work and millions of dollars of R & D into.

^
|
|
This statement came form a 15 year old (Me). I was brought up being told that illegal is illegal, and there is no justified about it.

Have a nice day.

Warez is like speeding? You're an idiot. You're 15, go masturbate you're not an adult.

 

[shaocaholica]

I think you're missing the point a bit. At one point, it was illegal for women to vote, for blacks to be free, for anyone to buy alcohol, and so on. The question isn't whether it *is* illegal -- that's obvious -- but whether it *should be*. Surely just because there is a law, that doesn't by default make it a good law.

Hahahahaha.

 

[finalgt]

The 15 year old can have a modestly intelligent conversation without resorting to name calling, whereas you can't. You call him an idiot but you give no reasons as to why his analogy was false? What does that say about you?

 

[emorphien]

Hahahahaha.

I think the point was that perhaps the system needs to be revised, and as it stands is flawed. Many view using Warez as a bad solution for a bad situation. Look at the broader picture.

 

[emorphien]

The 15 year old can have a modestly intelligent conversation without resorting to name calling, whereas you can't. You call him an idiot but you give no reasons as to why his analogy was false? What does that say about you?

To me it says the 15yr old is naive (expected) and he's just not very mature.

 

[HoosierDad]

I myself set a limit of $35. I will not buy any game for more than that amount and if I have to wait a year to play a game i will. It is only entertainment and their are other more important things to deal with.

I do make the occassional exception and will pay more for a game at times.

Yes, it does seem like we are heading toward communism; however, it is being done so in ways that seem to indicate we are all doing stupid things and we need the government to protect us from ourselves. Everyone is pushing the envelope without putting constraints on themselves as to what they do. I think that Howard Stern is included in that list as well as a lot of other people. Once again capitalism and free enterprise works. If you don't want to see or hear the trash on TV, radio, or on at the movies, there are on/off switches and no one forces you (yet) to walk into a theater. It's too bad that we have as a country slipped to this level of depravity that the government thinks it must take action.

How long before reality shows are cutting off limbs or killing people because the mental games are no longer providing them with the hapiness of seeing someone else suffer?

 

[emorphien]

^^^^ Agreed. The people need to be kept in check by the government, however it should also be the governments responsibility to keep the industries in check. Something which seems to have slipped in recent years (could it be this administration?).

 

[finalgt]

Yes, the Bush Administration is directly responsible for the price of videogames!

Hell, you obviously aren't too old if you think $50 is expensive. I regularly paid $60 for SNES games, and as I recall, $70 on occasions. MSRP.

A LOT of people who use the "video games are too expensive" argument tend to not even really care about it, they just need something to justify their actions. How is it that people are so readily able to justify spending $3k for the top-of-the-line-gotta-get-it-as-soon-as-it's-out video card and brand new processor, motherboard and RAM, but then they claim they don't have enough money for the games? Because let's be honest, anybody who pirates games on a relatively regular basis probably has an upper-high-end to high-end system. I'd respect the argument if they could actually justify it, but they never can. It's such a cop out.

 

[emorphien]

Yes, the Bush Administration is directly responsible for the price of videogames!

No. But if that's how you choose to interpret it I fear there's little point in telling you otherwise.

Hell, you obviously aren't too old if you think $50 is expensive. I regularly paid $60 for SNES games, and as I recall, $70 on occasions. MSRP.

You obviously have failed to take in to account the change in market interest for these products. Generally as something goes from a relatively niche/specialty product to as widespread as computer games are now, prices will drop. Is a drop to $50 from where it was a decade ago enough, too much? Don't know. Personally $50 is a lot to throw away on something that often doesn't have a return policy or a way to test it out. That's my beef.

A LOT of people who use the "video games are too expensive" argument tend to not even really care about it, they just need something to justify their actions. How is it that people are so readily able to justify spending $3k for the top-of-the-line-gotta-get-it-as-soon-as-it's-out video card and brand new processor, motherboard and RAM, but then they claim they don't have enough money for the games? Because let's be honest, anybody who pirates games on a relatively regular basis probably has an upper-high-end to high-end system. I'd respect the argument if they could actually justify it, but they never can. It's such a cop out.

[/quote]
Now you're arguing with some of the points other people have made. I agree, it's funny on the surface to look at the situation when you have someone spending well over $2k on a gaming machine and they complain that games are too expensive. However there's a number of issues there I don't even want to try to touch on. The fact is many see the software as being nonexistant, 1s and 0s, it's not tangible. I don't agree with that but it's a philosophy many share (look to the open source community). Others think as has been said they're charging too much, etc. etc. Their logic may be flawed, but so is your oversimplification of the situation which even I don't claim to understand all the parts of. You cannot however fit everyone in to your narrow moral views on what is right and wrong. And just because they don't fit your beliefs does not necessarily make their ideals wrong. They may not be in accordance with the law, but that's a very different issue, as the laws may or may not be right.

 

[Jerry1978]

who cares? it's up to the game companies to deal with. single-player games are going to get pirated no matter what.

 

[kronchev]

Yes, the Bush Administration is directly responsible for the price of videogames!

Hell, you obviously aren't too old if you think $50 is expensive. I regularly paid $60 for SNES games, and as I recall, $70 on occasions. MSRP.

A LOT of people who use the "video games are too expensive" argument tend to not even really care about it, they just need something to justify their actions. How is it that people are so readily able to justify spending $3k for the top-of-the-line-gotta-get-it-as-soon-as-it's-out video card and brand new processor, motherboard and RAM, but then they claim they don't have enough money for the games? Because let's be honest, anybody who pirates games on a relatively regular basis probably has an upper-high-end to high-end system. I'd respect the argument if they could actually justify it, but they never can. It's such a cop out.

Youre basing ALL piracy on the "i want it but i cant afford it so ill just download it anyway" argument which has already been determined to NOT be 100% at all. and yeh, actually, I do have a middle-high end system(sniff i remember when it was high end) and no, i cant afford games all the time DUE to my system. see some of us have "limited resources" and just because we were able to buy a nice video card doesnt mean that we can buy a ton of video games as well. im not excusing piracy AT ALL but the argument of "they can afford a computer so they can afford the games" is THE cop out of the whole argument.

 

[kronchev]

I myself set a limit of $35. I will not buy any game for more than that amount and if I have to wait a year to play a game i will. It is only entertainment and their are other more important things to deal with.

I do make the occassional exception and will pay more for a game at times.

Yes, it does seem like we are heading toward communism; however, it is being done so in ways that seem to indicate we are all doing stupid things and we need the government to protect us from ourselves. Everyone is pushing the envelope without putting constraints on themselves as to what they do. I think that Howard Stern is included in that list as well as a lot of other people. Once again capitalism and free enterprise works. If you don't want to see or hear the trash on TV, radio, or on at the movies, there are on/off switches and no one forces you (yet) to walk into a theater. It's too bad that we have as a country slipped to this level of depravity that the government thinks it must take action.

"This level of depravity"? Please point out ONE instance of lewd depravity in recent memory. The jackson thing. DONT EVEN MAKE ME LAUGH. That was the most non-base, non-vulgur, non-insulting thing ive seen in YEARS that got people very, very angry and pissed off, and for what? so the FCC would go crazy and fine people like howard stern, who besides being mentally handicapped and not funny, only "shock" the ignorant and repressed, but besides was fined for something he said YEARS ago in a non-vulgur way.

and i love it, just LOVE the communism comment. that shows a complete lack of understanding of politics and economics, nevermind a complete ignornace of what communism even is. dont consider that a flame, consider it a WARNING, as I am used to dealing with people calling the government "communism" and "facism" without understanding either of those terms, but i know many other people would not be so kind as to say "learn wtf youre talking about"

 

[emorphien]

Hell, some people like to play games, like me. Look at my system, yes I've got a fairly good video card from the previous generation, but look at the other specs. SCSI? Old sound card? WHAT, no Raptor or RAID? A film scanner? That's a good $900 investment that gets me better frame rate, FOR SURE! Gee what a gaming machine.

The primary intent of the system was for imaging, which it is very good at.

The majority of gamers do not spend fortunes on their systems for gaming. And many people engage in warez sharing who do not have high end gaming systems. People who spend >$1k even just for gaming are rare.

 

[Niartov]

I was reading the McDonalds comment and was kind of taken by it. I used to work there and have bettered myself into an development role. I got by just fine while I was there sure I needed to budget what I spent my cash on.... but I have to do that today. You should be worried about what your next job is going to be.... I know one of the guys out at id used to work at Burger King, and that just shows what you can aim for. I used to do my share of try before you buy, but I can say now that all my boxes are legit.... Open Source has helped that ALOT, so support you friendly developers, besides you will get more out of the $55 buying that game that most $55 investments...

 

[Blackwind]

When it comes to warez and or piracy, I think the industry as an organization need to find better solutions to curb piracy that does not hinder and or infringe on a legitimate users ability to use said product. Windows XP is a great example.

As for anyone to suggest "ID is an Evil Empire" and does not deserve your 50+ dollars....


You trully deserve any legal action brought against you.


John Carmack and Linus Torvalds are two individuals who have a history of long standing support for open source and the technology industry. They deserve what ever monetary fortune is due them.

While the laws surrounding piracy and warez are questionable at times and excessive, it does not preclude the intent of the law to begin with. Which was to protect the rightful owners of said intellectual property. The End.

 

[Qwertyman]

if u can say one positive thing about warez, is that no publicity is bad publicity. For example i will use the music industry granted these are my opinions and may not be all that justifiable they still make some sense.
Anyway in the music industry there are millions of pirated songs taken each day, from people some that don't care about the artist others that do, and many who would never have listened to that song or group in the first place. Now say they listen to this band and like them, and say to themselves wow this is really good, i would have never thought they could have been this good if i didn't download this song. This person goes out the next day and buys there record, goes to see them in concert, then becomes a die-hard fan. This may never happen but it could.
So to say warez are bad is true, because as every one knows it is ripping the business, industry, and creators off of their hard earned time they put into the game. From the positive side though, maybe u pull in a 1,000 people that would have not bought the game ever, but since its easily available to them, they are more willing to purchase future games, are more interested in the rest of the catalog of games the company puts out, and will buy the current game, maybe when it dips down in price, has a sequel or expansion pack. From my perspective, again, no publicity is bad publicity as long as someone knows about the game or company you can and can't lose. Will those wasted dollars from warez, turn into future or current profits is the real question. Maybe, Maybe not, but i think as long as its out there, you can't really lose. Someone should still do a study to see, if warez helps or hurts, even if the answer is the more obvious one.

 

[Torgo]

I think it was torga or Torgo who said they have yet to meet anyone who agrees warez is morally right.

I think that warez to preview a game is morally right.
I think that warez can be morally right.

Sorry, I snipped your explaination for space consideration. I'm still not buying your argument. For most business application software, there are alternatives to pirating for evaluation. Most companies have full evaluation versions of their software, demos, white papers and sales people that are willing to help you make your decision. The gaming industry has many of the same resources. There are game demos, friends, retailers, LAN centers, magazines, web sites all there to help you make the decision. At some point you need to make a decision to buy the game.

I will introduce another warez scenario:

Buying games as a group.

Again, snipped for space, but there are game companies that do this, though not exactly in how you describe. For example, Blizzard and Ensemble Studios created multiplayer versions of their games that allowed "spawned copies" to be created. There was usually a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio where someone would have to have a CD to play. This actually encouraged people to buy copies of the game so that they could experience the game at home on their own. I think that this method works as an advertisement and fosters good community relations.

Sorry, but I haven't seen a moral justification yet. I'm not saying one doesn't exist. At this point and time, the gamer has so many advantages they didn't have twenty years ago. Games are cheaper (Factor in inflation folks. It's true!), the game play has gotten longer, they're better and more interactive. It all goes back to people pirating because of the thrill and they're getting something for free.

 

[Strykur]

The warez problem (and morality of it) is further complicated by console ports. Sure, I want DOOM 3 on the PC, but I also want it on XBOX (co-op over Live will be awesome). Spitting out $100+ for the same game is kind of a bummer.