discussing the warez problem

theNoid

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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In a nutshell...

PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?

I wish the feds would track ips of those who posted to using warez, and send them to the pin to visit Johnny "the rearend" :eek: I wonder sometimes if these kids realize they can go to jail and serve 'time' if caught.

Do you think the feds 'don't' visit a site of this size looking for leads ? Do you really think the feds can't see you downloading from one of the largest bit torrent site out there ? Static, Dynamic doesn't matter.. you're ip is a fingerprint on the internet.

I guess they think it wont happen to them and they're invinsible. Time will tell.
 

douglas25

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theNoid said:
you're ip is a fingerprint on the internet

IP addresses are not unique and can easily be hidden or spoofed. Doesn't sound like much of a fingerprint to me.

I am pretty damn sure that any mass uploaders already have their bases covered.
 

Tazman2

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Woblin_Goblin said:
Not gonna read through the entire thread but I think cutting out the middle man would possibly help the theft problem. Perhaps if the game companys could sell the titles directly over the internet they could charge half the price and make so much more (instead of the retailer keeping most of the profits). Maybe that would prompt more people to actually buy. Lets face it, not everyone makes 70K a year. There is only so much money available. More money for the game companies = better games! Just my two cents.


This holds true for Music CDs as well...

theNoid said:
In a nutshell...

PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?

I wish the feds would track ips of those who posted to using warez, and send them to the pin to visit Johnny "the rearend" I wonder sometimes if these kids realize they can go to jail and serve 'time' if caught.

Do you think the feds 'don't' visit a site of this size looking for leads ? Do you really think the feds can't see you downloading from one of the largest bit torrent site out there ? Static, Dynamic doesn't matter.. you're ip is a fingerprint on the internet.

I guess they think it wont happen to them and they're invinsible. Time will tell.

In a nutshell ur WAY too paranoid and just trying to scare people. Can't they do real work like stop REAL crime? I mean the arrest of all those warez groups didn't make the world a better place what so ever. Just sent more criminals (not really) to jail for more time then murders, rapests, etc. get. I love this country and people like u just make it SOO much better... :rolleyes:
 
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theNoid said:
In a nutshell...

PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?

I wish the feds would track ips of those who posted to using warez, and send them to the pin to visit Johnny "the rearend" :eek: I wonder sometimes if these kids realize they can go to jail and serve 'time' if caught.

Do you think the feds 'don't' visit a site of this size looking for leads ? Do you really think the feds can't see you downloading from one of the largest bit torrent site out there ? Static, Dynamic doesn't matter.. you're ip is a fingerprint on the internet.

I guess they think it wont happen to them and they're invinsible. Time will tell.

Would you rather the feds go after suprnova or terrorists?
 

kronchev

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theNoid said:
In a nutshell...

PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?
.


so what if its illegal, that doesnt mean its completly wrong and anyone who engages in it should be shot. you probabily think that throwing kids who smoke a joint into jail is a great idea too :rolleyes:
 

douglas25

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MemoryInAGarden said:
Would you rather the feds go after suprnova or terrorists?

Totally agree.

"You downloaded, installed, and played a game that you aren't legally licensed for?"

I don't see many prosecuters jumping after folks for that.
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
theNoid said:
HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?

a Gedankenexperiment
reverse that
how can you justify something that is legal?
Legality is often an excerise of vested interests in the preservation of their rights
through a governmental body that may or maynot serve the best interests of the public

before Im accused of advocating piracy, (which Im not)
instead of standing on the "legality" arguement, why not address the reasons for the law
(and how it could be abused, misused and twisted)

remember in 1935 the Nurnburg "Laws" deprived a whole race\culture of people basic human rights, eventually leading to atrocity, I dont recognize the sanctity of law for law sake
 

Tazman2

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kronchev said:
so what if its illegal, that doesnt mean its completly wrong and anyone who engages in it should be shot. you probabily think that throwing kids who smoke a joint into jail is a great idea too :rolleyes:

Wait... so ur saying throwing people in jail for small problems doesn't fix them? I mean it works so well for excons who come out and within a weak they are back in for a bigger offense... oh wait...... :p
 

emorphien

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kronchev said:
you probabily think that throwing kids who smoke a joint into jail is a great idea too :rolleyes:
It is! They should burn just like the weed they smoke!


BTW, YOU GOT PM BIATCH!
 

Tazman2

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douglas25 said:
Who remembers prohibition?

If you do, then should you see my point.


That some laws are just stupid and are just there to arrest u for something stupid and minor? If i'm wrong plz smack me as i just woke up from a nap.... =X
 

douglas25

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Tazman2 said:
That some laws are just stupid and are just there to arrest u for something stupid and minor? If i'm wrong plz smack me as i just woke up from a nap.... =X


Basically, if you can't convince the mass general public that said crime is actually a crime. That is causes negative effects and that there is a victim. Then you have no chance of sucessfully enforcing and maintaining said law.
 

Tazman2

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douglas25 said:
Basically, if you can't convince the mass general public that said crime is actually a crime. That is causes negative effects and that there is a victim. Then you have no chance of sucessfully enforcing and maintaining said law.


I'm sure the patriot act fixes those holes in some way or another considering that trys to take away your rights... :(
 

enm4r

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Anyone who's taken a philosophy class would know that legality is not something to which you can base a logical argument on.




Torgo said:
Excuse: I'll just buy it later if it's good. While there are numbers that back this theory up (the most pirated games are the best games), not enough people are buying the games after they pirate them.

Maybe not enough people are impressed by the software they find? I'm not going to say that even a majority of pirates would even consider buying the software, but a large amount do actually use it as a trial because the developers give people like myself no other option. Where am I supposed to turn if I want to make an educated decision? Reviews that publishers buy? No way. I would have been perfectly content with a demo that took out the entire opening scene and then allowed me to play up to the first 5-10 minutes. I'm not demanding anything like multi or a complete level. I just want to run around, get a feel for the game, and shoot off a few rounds at guys. I might play that for a few hours, and I'll know whether or not I want to spend the money. It doesn't matter how much the game costs, fact is that it costs money, and I'm not keen on throwing mine away. I hardly think what I am asking for developers who've spend years on a game is too much. Package all that in a nice 3-400Mb package and I would have saved almost a gig of bandwidth as well. :)
 

douglas25

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Tazman2 said:
I'm sure the patriot act fixes those holes in some way or another considering that trys to take away your rights... :(

The patriot act expires next year in 2005 - thank god. I prefer to be protected by the constitution.
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
Or its possible that since 911 we have witnessed the biggest landgrab in US history of the right of the government to monitor the public as a whole
 

douglas25

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Ice Czar said:
Or its possible that since 911 we have witnessed the biggest landgrab in US history of the right of the government to monitor the public as a whole

The first rule for any form of bureaucracy is to protect the bureaucracy at all costs.

I think alot of evil mean are using this confusing era to erode our constituional rights. I do not want to live in a world where folks become "persons of interest" and where you are "guilty until proven innocent".
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
douglas25 said:
The first rule for any form of bureaucracy is to protect the bureaucracy at all costs.

I think alot of evil mean are using this confusing era to erode our constituional rights. I do not want to live in a world where folks become "persons of interest" and where you are "guilty until proven innocent".


what? you mean that you disagree with
everything not mandatory is prohibited? :p


at first blush this little sidetrack seems better suited to the soapbox and unrelated to the topic of discussion, until you examine the efforts underway in the state legislatures and the fed by organizations like the RIAA and MPAA then the tie becomes self evident

warez and media piracy in conjunction with 9\11 and the lack of a popular voice is In my opinion allowing the vested interests to place a brand of ownership on our culture itself,
throttle competition, and invade privacy rights enshrined in our culture

worth posting again
FairUse Issues @ Indiana U
Copyright & Fair Use @ Stanford U
make sure to download
Free Culture by Stanford Law Professor Lawrence Lessig
Professor Lessig shows us that while new technologies always lead to new laws, never before have the big cultural monopolists used the fear created by new technologies, specifically the Internet, to shrink the public domain of ideas, even as the same corporations use the same technologies to control more and more what we can and can't do with culture. As more and more culture becomes digitized, more and more becomes controllable, even as laws are being toughened at the behest of the big media groups. What's at stake is our freedom--freedom to create, freedom to build, and ultimately, freedom to imagine

of course there is a substantial difference in the consolidation of copyright use
and software but there are corollaries
Electronic Freedom Foundation
EFF's Patent Busting Project 10 most wanted
(Crimes against the public domain, willful ignorance of prior art, egregious display of obviousness)


there is now a huge push of patenting everything
in the most obvious, and inappropriate efforts to enforce those patents, that should have never been granted in the first place, dont yhave figure directly at hand but there has been a huge groundswell in the number of patents submitted to the USPTO over the last decade
and while most are legitmate, many more are spurious and damaging to the public
 

douglas25

Limp Gawd
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Messages
139
Ice Czar said:
what? you mean that you disagree with
everything not mandatory is prohibited?

heh, absolutely not. :)

Thanks for the links, yes our patent system is out of control. Simply too overwhelmed and too general these days.
 

Tazman2

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Messages
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douglas25 said:
heh, absolutely not. :)

Thanks for the links, yes our patent system is out of control. Simply too overwhelmed and too general these days.


Court cases are out of control too. Who would have thought years ago that somebody would try to sue for getting fat from Mcdonalds or sueing and winning by breaking into somebody elses home and getting stuck in there...
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
This isnt my forum and Im normally not to be found here unless Im acting as the "nice police" :p

Im not even a gamer :eek:
so this is a serious question, how many leading gaming companies are there?
and what about industry consolidation? how gaming engines relate to technology developments (which I couldnt help but notice) and how adopted standards and alliances effect the choice of games available or constrain a new developer for entering into the field?
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
Tazman2 said:
Court cases are out of control too. Who would have thought years ago that somebody would try to sue for getting fat from Mcdonalds or sueing and winning by breaking into somebody elses home and getting stuck in there...

or that Microsoft would attempt to enforce its patent of FAT32
after its been adopted as such a widely held media standard

or that the whole SCO mess would be employed
in an effort to derail the opensource movement

hundred of examples, below the radar of even most enthusiasts
and the lobbyists with the deep pockets again win
at the expense of those that are just emerging as players
the old historical cycle of law, the one aspect about the internet and the freedoms it enables
(and the one argument that I havent seen mentioned per se)
is that it defys "control",
there are already secure P2P programs, not popular but secure
and that "law" and compulsion has never been the way to "win hearts and minds"

the fact is that to a fairly large proportion of the world, any expenditure other than towards basic survival needs is a luxury they cannot afford, however, they may have access to the digital world by one means or another, possibly in an effort to increase there potential at survival, and that to such individuals, the temptation or or need in the case of say an OS or other ap to further their education and position in life
points them either to freeware or warez, most likely both

are they to be judged on the same scale?
is the issue still so black and white?

my personal opinion is that in the case of a game, yes
and that there are plenty of substitute freeware aps and even games available
and that when it comes to the latest and greatest game, they likely would need pretty sophisticated hardware to even play it, in which case they should be able to get the game as well

however that doesnt necessarily cross as a judgement to all senerios
 

emorphien

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Messages
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Ice Czar said:
or that Microsoft would attempt to enforce its patent of FAT32
after its been adopted as such a widely held media standard

Gee I dunno, that's just clever business-running. If they had enforced it at the start it probably wouldn't have taken off. Enforce it now and they can profit big time!
 

Torgo

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Messages
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Ice Czar said:
where I would add that the real hotbeds of piracy, warez, malware development, and other cybercrimes are in economically depressed zones of the world, that nevertheless have internet access, a game being a temptation that few deny themselves in such zones and that its not the developers that are at fault for the huge disproprtionate income levels but that it has always been so, and that the world is rapidly changing, digital media by its very nature more succeptible to theft than hard goods
What you gave as an example fits into "getting back at The Man" argument. C'mon, all these folks know it's wrong to do it, but what you describe in East Asia is run by cartels that make some serious profit from this kind of activity. (Too lazy at the moment to look up Wired articles showing this.) Is the software priced to high for the Asian and Eastern European marketplace? More than likely. But you're talking about full-scale conterfeiters here. The ones that make holographic labels and full packaging. That's just downright criminal.

If you want to go into conspiracy theory, allowing this piracy to continue only further entrenches these products in the marketplace, rather than let cheaper and sometimes superior products take hold. You don't see Microsoft making huge efforts to combat piracy in a area until they have a large share of the market: pirated or legitimate. Linux and other OpenSource software would be more attractive if companies and countries in these areas would enforce existing laws. The same could be applied to games.
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
yeh, after you have invested in that compact flash reader, camera, media, ect

standards are indeed a slippery slope
companies that backpeddle on enforcing technology patents that they held (or even sold) that where pushed for widespread adoption at no fee originally
should be denied out of hand, and fined for their arrogance to boot :p
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
Torgo said:
What you gave as an example fits into "getting back at The Man" argument. C'mon, all these folks know it's wrong to do it, but what you describe in East Asia is run by cartels that make some serious profit from this kind of activity. (Too lazy at the moment to look up Wired articles showing this.) Is the software priced to high for the Asian and Eastern European marketplace? More than likely. But you're talking about full-scale conterfeiters here. The ones that make holographic labels and full packaging. That's just downright criminal.

If you want to go into conspiracy theory, allowing this piracy to continue only further entrenches these products in the marketplace, rather than let cheaper and sometimes superior products take hold. You don't see Microsoft making huge efforts to combat piracy in a area until they have a large share of the market: pirated or legitimate. Linux and other OpenSource software would be more attractive if companies and countries in these areas would enforce existing laws. The same could be applied to games.

Indeed the sticking it to the man arguement, but as I addressed above
I would indeed seperate the crime syndicates from the individual
and certain types of software from others

is it wrong that the G7 maintains their preeminence of the world economy at the expense of others? depends on your point of view, do individuals view computer skills in those societies as a means to better themselves and their chances of survival?
yes, and thats human nature
in fact, digital piracy per se may not even codified in the local canon of law
and is thus not illegal, like say Canada :p (recieving filesharing only)

so where does that leave the arguement?
that judging anything is relative to the context and shared values of the parties involved
that each has a point of view and that legaility can be very nebulous commodity

Id like to clarify the terms of discussion here
this forum, operates under the laws of the United States, and in the rules the term illegal activities pertains to those laws, and thats how we enforce the rules which even the members from other contries need to be aware of, which is why we are having this nice hypothetical and philsophical discussion, the one common thread that we seem to touch on is ethics, and that most cultures have an ethical guideline of the accepted norm for what consditutes theft, and that irregardless of codified law warez should be regarded as theft, but point in fact, that isnt always the case with all cultures or subcultures
and thus your reduced to either education and other incentives or compulsion
 

NeghVar

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theNoid said:
PIRACY IS ILLEGAL, HOW CAN U JUSTIFY SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL ?


I justify using permanent markers. Did you know those are illegal? According to the DMCA they are. As is the left shift key and many other perfectly legitimate items that are CAPABLE OF being used to circumvent security schemes on CDs and DVDs.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

So Noid, I guess you've never used permanent markers, left shift keys, CD-RW drive, etc.

The law is the law. the laws are technicalities, technicality vs. reality. Your quote, other than the fact that its hypocritical, is a sorry excuse to avoid looking at the big picture. Such as "why do they pirate the software? What influences them? What can we do to influence them not to?" Too complex for the corporations to comprehend. They take the simple route which is a copout. Of course their are those who flat out just don't want to pay for a good game. Then there are the try before buy people for the games that don't provide demos or some mean of proving that its a worth while game
 
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Ice Czar

Guest
this is too funny, I just checked my mail these are all TechRepblic featuered stories
(though I found the source stories to avoid anyone having to join even though its free)

A billion PC users on the way
"The number of PC users is expected to hit or exceed 1 billion by 2010, up from around 660 million to 670 million today, fueled primarily by new adopters in developing nations such as China, Russia and India, according to analysts.

To penetrate these markets, companies are creating the sort of nation-building programs more often associated with organizations like the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and the United Nations. Microsoft, for example, has set up an initiative called the Local Economic Development Program for Software, in which company employees advise government officials on building tech programs at local universities, intellectual-property laws and other issues. Brazil is one of eight countries in the program. "

Breaking the rules with open source
""Open source is just a more efficient, effective software business model," Roberts says. "It's more than just cheaper software. It's a shift, a movement reshaping the dynamics of a modern software company."

Increasingly, entrepreneurs like Roberts, along with investors, are eyeing open source as a better way to build software companies. Rather than incur huge start-up costs and recruit high-priced software sales executives, smaller companies are building their businesses around an open-source business model, where software source code can be viewed and enhanced by others."

Group: Linux potentially infringes 283 patents"An artifact of current patent law in the United States is that companies and individuals are discouraged from seeing if their products infringe, Ravicher said.

"If you have knowledge and are found to infringe, a court can punish you," tripling financial penalties, Ravicher said. "If you say you didn't know and didn't see it, a court can't punish you. It's a screwed-up rule."

Linux founder and leader Linus Torvalds has taken that approach. "Finding patent infringement has always been a responsibility of the patent holders," he said in a 2003 interview. "It is a fact that I do not encourage engineers to look up patent information."

:p :p :p
 

NeghVar

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douglas25 said:
http://www.321studios.com/

321studios Inc was shutdown today due to a federal court order. Seems as though the industry lawyers had their way with the judge. They made DVD and Audio backup software.


I wonder if any of the defendants in these cases have tried using the 7th ammendment
"guarantees trial by jury in civil cases in anything valued at more than 20 US dollars"
The judges seem to be making the calls here instead of a jury. Of course the entertainment industry wants to avoid jury trials at all costs since it would throw a rock into the gears of their master plan to sue all the world.
 

doh-nut

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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."


this way of thinking has infected the intarweb for too long. whenever a pirate is cornered and on the verge of feeling bad about what he has done which he should, he resorts to saying, well you probably do it too! as if that can someone justify himself and all of a sudden make piracy OK to do. its pathetic really.
 

Tazman2

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doh-nut said:
this way of thinking has infected the intarweb for too long. whenever a pirate is cornered and on the verge of feeling bad about what he has done which he should, he resorts to saying, well you probably do it too! as if that can someone justify himself and all of a sudden make piracy OK to do. its pathetic really.

If you really checked up almost everybody pirates even in a small way. Almost everybody has copied a tape (before cds), vhs tapes, installed software on more then one PC, etc. The whole piracy thing has so many holes that soon enough even if your looking at something and not buying it your a pirate... Then again almost all laws are like that lately...
 

doh-nut

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Tazman2 said:
If you really checked up almost everybody pirates even in a small way. Almost everybody has copied a tape (before cds), vhs tapes, installed software on more then one PC, etc. The whole piracy thing has so many holes that soon enough even if your looking at something and not buying it your a pirate... Then again almost all laws are like that lately...

see this is what im talking about. why do you feel the need to say this? well at least you are saying 'almost', which some people aren't smart enough to put in. still, its a pointless comment. what is it supposed to accomplish?

Ah! now that i know that almost everyone pirates, that empowers me and i will now rip off software devs and not feel bad about it. because hey, it makes me feel better to know that software devs are losing millions of dollars instead of just thousands of dollars!
 
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My thoughts on the subject aren't really a matter of right and wrong but along the lines of what people think about software piracy vs. other things..

For example... In college I used to copy everything just because I could and it was there. My girlfriends dad gave me some lecture about it being wrong and what did I see in his house???? A TON of copied movies that he dubbed off other people....

If you want to pirate stuff, fine.. it's your perogative, if not.. fine again. However, don't go preaching on the mount if your own house is corrupt if you know what i'm saying.

I don't mind paying 50-60 dollars for a game.. yea it's expensive as hell but I"ll pay it, IF the game is good enough to warrent it.

I've "evalutated" several different titles of "commercial shareware" in my time and when I kept the game/software which meant I like(d) it.. then I would go buy it and pay for it...

How many people here are willing to drop 2-3-400 dollars on a copy of microsoft office professional? or photoshop? Adobe Acrobat 6.0 suite?

I don't know too many people with that kind of cash to spare....

I also work in a lawfirm and do you know how many times i've seen attourney's ask for a copy of something to take home and install?

if you ask me it's all about corperate america...but in all honesty... the price of most software drops 50% in value in a matter of 6 months.. or hits the 20.00 bin in less time....
 

NeghVar

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Tazman2 said:
If you really checked up almost everybody pirates even in a small way. Almost everybody has copied a tape (before cds), vhs tapes, installed software on more then one PC, etc. The whole piracy thing has so many holes that soon enough even if your looking at something and not buying it your a pirate... Then again almost all laws are like that lately...

I am not using it to defend myself or what I do, for I too am guilty as charged. but to back his statement when he is guilty too is the act of a hypocrit
 

HoosierDad

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This is a free country. This is capitalism at work. If you don't like it go to a communist country and let the government take care of you.

Now grow up.
 

TekieB

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That is why stuff like this gets locked, and people get BANNED (i'm not a mod, but still)
 
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SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg

SUCK A DOG COCK

dog-cock.jpg


16.jpg
 
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