discussing the warez problem

Tov

Limp Gawd
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Jun 27, 2003
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142
I read this entire thread and I feel everyone is looking at this in the wrong way. For one thing, I don't think we should call software pirating stealing. When you steal something you actually take something from some one, but by using IP that you didn't pay for, well that person still has their IP and can profit from it can't they? How come it goes from being copyright and licensing infringement to stealing, what happened there? That's a little off topic but it bugs me a whole lot.

Now I agree that illegally downloading software is breaking the law, but as the saying goes: "law are made to be broken." Now this doesn't mean I advoate breaking the law, NO, but we do need to understand why laws are created, how they function, and MOST of all have a good grasp on the workings of today's society, and life itself. The creation of laws have different reasons in different societies, but at a basic level of honest law and honest government would would only be created to better the society. Although one could argue that we would be better off without government. Of course the usual reponse to that is, "Well that wouldn't be a good thing becuase my lifestyle would change." Of course that makes the assumption that YOUR selfless act of lifestyle sacrifce is the completely wrong thing to do. Again, no one is free of greed and selfishness.

Morals were designed to control people. Yes they were, do a little research and you will discover this. Not to say that they are always used for control, NO, a few wise and intelligent people will understand that society as a whole really do not want to backtrack to better things. Why? Becuase the material world has a big strong hold on people, and the people at the top of the hierarchy deffinately don't want things to change. No I don't advocate going back to the stoneage, if people want to continue living the way we do then they will, nothing I can do. If a group of people decide to stand up and change thing, and they successfully do, then things change. The world is ruled by the majority and/or the strongest. So basically what I am trying to say is that you can argue right and wrong all you want, but right and wrong are both subjective, but let the majority win, becuase you know they will.

My word of advice to you people who go against the majority/strong, and I joke around about this, but it's true, don't get caught. No one said you can't blame them if you get caught, but the point behind this is to get people to believe you, and therefore switch the majority/strong to your side.

P.S. Oh, and on a side note, all you idiots who think it's wrong to have to pay $# bucks to but a MMO, and then $# amount a month to play forget that the $# bucks to buy the game is just that, buy the game. The developers had to spend time developing that and deserve the right to charge for it. You seem to convienently forget that one price tag is for a product, the other is for a service. This is employed in many facets, like cable and satillite tv, or your internet you are using yet you say nothing of these instances. Is it because games have always been "buy and play" and not services? I believe so. So it is understandable what you say, but please, think before you act next time.
 

Torgo

2[H]4U
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Syphon Filter said:
I know understand that you cant cut prices too much but i think it would help...a fair bit too...
I added another paragraph after you quoted me. I also wanted to add that game prices and inflation have not kept up at all. During the video game heyday of the 80s, games were actually more expensive. In 1981 when the largest selling game of that year, Pac-Man was released for the 2600, it cost $40. In today's dollars, that's $81. I don't see any new games being sold for that... well, outside Neo Geo games and Steel Battalion.

At the same time, the cost of games has skyrocketed. AAA titles can cost as much as a major motion picture. Shenmue cost over $70 million to make if I recall correctly. Can games cost less? Sure, but you're putting the industry at risk. There's enough companies that are going under at the moment. Everyone touts that the game industry rakes in billions of dollars. That's sales. Then the publisher takes their cut and gives the developer their share. There isn't much left if your game isn't a success.

FYI, for a computer game to be a "hit" you need to sell 100,000 copies. You'd be surprised at how many don't reach this number.
 

oldpablo

Supreme [H]ardness
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Tov said:
So basically what I am trying to say is that you can argue right and wrong all you want, but right and wrong are both subjective, but let the majority win, becuase you know they will.

Was Nazi Germany subjective? Right and wrong isn't subjective, its in our ROM. The fringes of it may differ, but not the core. Ever hear of the term "Understandable but not Excusable?" A woman kills her husband because he is beating her day and night, and then she goes to jail. Killing is wrong, but the reason/intent can change the right/wrong of something. So to once again keep it simple, if you download you are in the wrong, but if you aren't doing it for malicious reasons, you're still going to buy, and you aren't actively working to reduce gaming sales (distributing) then I would think the intent makes it fine (based upon the pre-stated logic that its IP, not an actual physical possession someone is missing).
 

emorphien

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Torgo you seem to have completely ignored something I already mentioned when you said the exact same damn thing a page ago. The market for games has increased tremendously since 1981. Generally as a market expands prices will drop. So while maybe a game priced at $40 then is equivalent to twice that now, the market size is many many more times what it was then.

As far as games not selling 100k copies, the industry is immature and still putting out way more game than people are willing to buy, nevermind the duds they make. There's also a large amount of games that nobody expects to sell large volumes of, and game makers hope that these will balance out with the "blockbuster" games.
 

kronchev

[H]F Junkie
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12,051
Torgo said:
I added another paragraph after you quoted me. I also wanted to add that game prices and inflation have not kept up at all. During the video game heyday of the 80s, games were actually more expensive. In 1981 when the largest selling game of that year, Pac-Man was released for the 2600, it cost $40. In today's dollars, that's $81. I don't see any new games being sold for that... well, outside Neo Geo games and Steel Battalion.

At the same time, the cost of games has skyrocketed. AAA titles can cost as much as a major motion picture. Shenmue cost over $70 million to make if I recall correctly. Can games cost less? Sure, but you're putting the industry at risk. There's enough companies that are going under at the moment. Everyone touts that the game industry rakes in billions of dollars. That's sales. Then the publisher takes their cut and gives the developer their share. There isn't much left if your game isn't a success.

FYI, for a computer game to be a "hit" you need to sell 100,000 copies. You'd be surprised at how many don't reach this number.


The major costs of games involves licensing (art, music, etc) and paying the damn publisher. Unless youre id and you are KNOWN for being very talented and good, you will not be receiving most of the sales money, as you point out. I do like though how you are very against people downloading games, how jesus wouldnt do it (while were talking about sfictional stories, i dont think frodo would either), etc, yet you seem perfectly happy with developers getting very little cut of games. With broadband becoming nearly the norm, companies are slowly, slower than the music industry it seems, starting to go back to "send us $$$, we will let you download the full version, and here is your key". You can do it with lindows I know, and I remember back in the day, when games were <$30. I dont know where you get $60 except for cartridges but most games, you could download for pretty cheap, $5 extra if you wanted a disk. things need to move that way and cut out the freaking distributers, because all they do is screw things up, jack up prices, and give no benefit. if Doom3 was sold for download, from id, for $30, I would be VERY happy knowing that money went straight to id. instead i paid $55 for some part of that to go to eb games, some part then to go to activision, and then the rest would go to id, mostly to pay for the production of the game. i want to be able to reward developers for a really well done job, not have them recoup expenses because so much of what I paid got taken by people I seriously do not think deserve my money as they do nothing worthy.
 

Torgo

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Tov said:
For one thing, I don't think we should call software pirating stealing. When you steal something you actually take something from some one, but by using IP that you didn't pay for, well that person still has their IP and can profit from it can't they?
They can't always profit from it. Technically you're right. Stealing isn't the right term, copyright infringement is. Let me give you a good example. If one drug company steals the formula for a new drug from another, the first company hasn't lost anything right? They still have the formula, they should be able to profit? If the first drug company sells their infringing drug for less, then they are "stealing profits" they never would have had if they didn't steal the IP in the first place. This happens every day in the drug industry and they are hardcore about enforcing their drug patents.

Download pirated software and you are taking away sales. The exact numbers are extremely fuzzy. Maybe the person wouldn't have bought it. Maybe he would have. Who knows? The law is written to take the side of potential sales. It leads to unfair punishments (IMHO) but that's the way it is and is worthy of it's own topic.

So basically what I am trying to say is that you can argue right and wrong all you want, but right and wrong are both subjective, but let the majority win, becuase you know they will.

My word of advice to you people who go against the majority/strong, and I joke around about this, but it's true, don't get caught. No one said you can't blame them if you get caught, but the point behind this is to get people to believe you, and therefore switch the majority/strong to your side.
You're really losing me here. You contradict yourself a few times. The majority says that pirating is wrong so you should let them win... but later switch them to your side. I fail to see your point.
 

kronchev

[H]F Junkie
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12,051
Torgo said:
They can't always profit from it. Technically you're right. Stealing isn't the right term, copyright infringement is. Let me give you a good example. If one drug company steals the formula for a new drug from another, the first company hasn't lost anything right? They still have the formula, they should be able to profit? If the first drug company sells their infringing drug for less, then they are "stealing profits" they never would have had if they didn't steal the IP in the first place. This happens every day in the drug industry and they are hardcore about enforcing their drug patents.

Download pirated software and you are taking away sales. The exact numbers are extremely fuzzy. Maybe the person wouldn't have bought it. Maybe he would have. Who knows? The law is written to take the side of potential sales. It leads to unfair punishments (IMHO) but that's the way it is and is worthy of it's own topic.


um but NO ONE is making money off warez. no matter how much I support downloading to try, i DO NOT support buying bootlegs of games, because that IS real stealing.
 

Tov

Limp Gawd
Joined
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142
My point, before it get any more skewed, is that what is subjective yet affects society as a whole, will always polarize to one side, and then that one side will affect everyone. Therefore since more people believe that downloading a game is wrong then it is. My arguement of switching them to your side is just that. No contridiction there, it involves the majority changing what they believe. My world masterpieces 1 teacher told me I worded my sentences wierd (grr my smilies do not work). If you believe that something is wrong then you should work at changing what people think, but if you go against them then you put yourself at risk.
 

Tov

Limp Gawd
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142
Yes you are correct they are stealing PROFITS, no argument there. It just gets on my nerves when someone yells are you for stealing, and gets all 7th commandment on you. Stealing a formulae from a drug company is STEALING becuase you stole their idea from them. Drug companies would hold patents not copyrights because they deal with physical entities not displaying an idea. But I understand where you were going with this.
 

Blackwind

Gawd
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Tov said:
Yes you are correct they are stealing PROFITS, no argument there. It just gets on my nerves when someone yells are you for stealing, and gets all 7th commandment on you. Stealing a formulae from a drug company is STEALING becuase you stole their idea from them. Drug companies would hold patents not copyrights because they deal with physical entities not displaying an idea. But I understand where you were going with this.

Well if they went all 7th commandment on me .......its cuss I'm a floozie! :D I'm pretty sure the 7th commandment is regarding adultery. :p
 

MX2times

[H]ard|Gawd
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For anyone complaining about the price of games...

I remember when Atari 2600 cartridges cost 30-50 dollars each. How's that for pure gaming quality at unbelievable prices:D
 

Chris_Morley

Former [H] Consumer Managing Ed.
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kronchev said:
um but NO ONE is making money off warez. no matter how much I support downloading to try, i DO NOT support buying bootlegs of games, because that IS real stealing.
Must be that liberal Princeton education, but could you clarify this?

Downloading the game is ok, but paying for a copy that someone ELSE downloaded is wrong?
 

Chris_Morley

Former [H] Consumer Managing Ed.
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And before more people start clouding the argument with pseudo-intellectual sociological drivel, lemme say this:

Pirating a video game is always wrong. Yes, I've done it, but I don't go around bragging about it, trying to justify it, or even worse, sitting on a high horse about my actions.
 

Xrave

Supreme [H]ardness
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They're both wrong, but when you start selling pirated software, that's when you start to become a target for the authorities.
 

douglas25

Limp Gawd
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Morley said:
And before more people start clouding the argument with pseudo-intellectual sociological drivel, lemme say this:

Pirating a video game is always wrong. Yes, I've done it, but I don't go around bragging about it, trying to justify it, or even worse, sitting on a high horse about my actions.


Remember the special word of this thread - "hypothetically"
 
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kronchev said:
um but NO ONE is making money off warez. no matter how much I support downloading to try, i DO NOT support buying bootlegs of games, because that IS real stealing.

the first time i read that... i was in total agreement with you on this point.. but now that i think about it....

do fake oakleys take sales from oakley? what about fake nikes, fake louis vuitton purses? fake throwback jerseys? fake rolex? no.. they actually advertise for the product.. people realize, well if people buy fake oakleys, they the real thing must be pretty damn good... also the people that buy that bootleg stuff would probably never buy the real thing... there are exceptions to everything though...

now... the counter to that argument is that a bootleg game or bootleg music is the exact thing as the "real thing". it isn't an inferior product, which a knock off of some other product may or may not be.. you will be losing, warranty, tech support, and a glossy box... so a bootleg is actually inferior is some ways.. but the same might be true, a person who buys bootleg, games, movies, or music... may never buy the real thing anyways... so no sales are lost, but there are always exceptions... but at the same time, the presence of those bootleg games and music may advertise to other people that the game, music, movie, whatever is worth something since itis being bootlegged, therefore increasing other people's awareness of it...

i think this is true with microsoft... it is so widely adopted, becasue so many people use unauthentic, bootlegged, whatever you want to call it copies of windows... (and i know that argument has been used somewhere in the previos 2- pages of replies)

so i am not condoning, or supporting either side... i like to sit back and thing about the whole picture... which i will never see... i know there are positives and negatives to everything, and i mean everything.. i will always believe that... the negatives may outweigh any positives of warez... but there are multiple perspectives (i have when people say 2 sides,becasue that usually infers right and wrong, and there are many more than 2) to everything... so maybe i am saying warez are good to an extent..

everything in moderation... too many warez are bad, but corp ceo's and ID making too much money may prove to be equally bad....
 
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emorphien said:
if you're downloading mp3s then it's inferior.

and movies... vcd or divx vs dvd, but maybe not compared to vhs...

i am sure there is a lot more stuff like that..

ok... i got the damn wheels turning in my head with this inferiour, blah blah shit...

the what is the word here, we aren't talking about ID, or warez anymore... the media companies? anyways... they need to be careful not to make their products inferior in too many ways.. otherwise they will just shoot themselves in the foot... for example... requiring that a cd be in the drive to play a game vs, a warez version that doesn't need the cd... or a zone 1 dvd that won't work in zone 2 when you are on vacation... shit like that... ( i don't know if you have to leave the country to experience these things).. but you get what i mean...

also, inferiorirty and superiority are all subjective too.. mp3s are a superior product, because you can fit moer on a cd. you can download them easily, you can get a new song even before you can buy it in a store... you are only commenting on the sound quality.. but driving in a car you will probably never notice a difference... cars have a higher noise floor.. (IE the sound quality improvements get drowned out my road noise)

some mreo shit to think about..

edit #2... i am wathing.. don't copy that floppy... and i bet that damn video made me want to warez games more than it discouraged me.. isn't it funny how that works?
 
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