Bitcoin value cut in half as cryptocurrencies tumble in weekend slide 05-24-2021

Efficiency while maintaining security. You give up bitcoin's level of security with those instant transactions. This is a settlement layer.
 
"Money" is all bogus and only worth the TRUST people have in it as a store of value. Monetary notes issued by organized groups are subject to manipulation. Manipulation that inflates the money supply is same as stealing VALUE directly from your bank account. What crypto does is tie the units of value to a limited number of units that should be much harder to manipulate. Thus locking the VALUE in with mathematics and NOT the local politicians bullscookies. When more people understand the theft is occurring they may also opt out of those systems and into better ones. The value of a crypto unit will stabilize more as acceptance continues and they are not hacked in some way. Expect convulsions of the current systems as they fight for control. :)
 
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GreenLaser said:
"Money" is all bogus and only worth the TRUST people have in it as a store of value. Monetary notes issued by organized groups are subject to manipulation. Manipulation that inflates the money supply is same as stealing VALUE directly from your bank account. What crypto does is tie the units of value to a limited number of units that should be much harder to manipulate. Thus locking the VALUE in with mathematics and NOT the local politicians bullscookies. When more people understand the theft is occurring they may also opt out of those systems and into better ones. The value of a crypto unit will stabilize more as acceptance continues and they are not hacked in some way. Expect convulsions of the current systems as they fight for control. :)
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This 1000%

Rather than fake system where wealth is created by the strength of a country we are entering a new era where wealth is created based on the power of video cards.
 
GreenLaser said:
"Money" is all bogus and only worth the TRUST people have in it as a store of value. Monetary notes issued by organized groups are subject to manipulation. Manipulation that inflates the money supply is same as stealing VALUE directly from your bank account. What crypto does is tie the units of value to a limited number of units that should be much harder to manipulate. Thus locking the VALUE in with mathematics and NOT the local politicians bullscookies. When more people understand the theft is occurring they may also opt out of those systems and into better ones. The value of a crypto unit will stabilize more as acceptance continues and they are not hacked in some way. Expect convulsions of the current systems as they fight for control. :)
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You wouldn't be talking about that $4,500,000,000,000.00 that the government (left/right) added to the national debt in the last year, would you? That theft? Now they want to add another $6T to the dumpster fire?

Government has already increased the national debt by ~20% in the last year - that devalues the dollar by virtually an equivalent amount as the debt to GDP > 130% - levels at where Greece declared bankruptcy.

All of these excuses that workers "don't want to go back to work" are because they don't want to go back to work at the same pay. Especially not with the government paying them not to work. That increases the prices for everyone - inflation.

Gas pipeline hack? Sure. Did the prices go back to where they were? Nope. It accelerated the increase, masking the real problem - inflation.

The government is trying to hide the MASSIVE INFLATION that is occurring. Buffet even said it.

Too late to change things. People still think they can save the country by voting for their party. You can't. Your party isn't doing anything. People don't pay attention. Both parties are piling on the debt. They give back us citizens a few of our own dollars to pretend like they are doing something, when those checks only add up to 17% of the total spent - the other 83% is THEFT of our currency.

Buy crypto, buy weapons, protect your families from the accelerating fall of the US. Here are some real numbers:
 

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Jtal said:
This 1000%

Rather than fake system where wealth is created by the strength of a country we are entering a new era where wealth is created based on the power of video cards.
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The Miners are not creating wealth, they're manufacturing the serialized crypto lock boxes that units of VALUE will be stored in. And they are getting paid going rate for that work like any other job.
 
sleepeeg3 said:
You wouldn't be talking about that $4,500,000,000,000.00 that the government (left/right) added to the national debt in the last year, would you? That theft? Now they want to add another $6T to the dumpster fire?

Government has already increased the national debt by ~20% in the last year - that devalues the dollar by virtually an equivalent amount as the debt to GDP > 130% - levels at where Greece declared bankruptcy.

All of these excuses that workers "don't want to go back to work" are because they don't want to go back to work at the same pay. Especially not with the government paying them not to work. That increases the prices for everyone - inflation.

Gas pipeline hack? Sure. Did the prices go back to where they were? Nope. It accelerated the increase, masking the real problem - inflation.

The government is trying to hide the MASSIVE INFLATION that is occurring.

Too late to change things. People still think they can save the country by voting for their party. You can't. Your party isn't doing anything. People don't pay attention. Both parties are piling on the debt. They give back us citizens a few of our own dollars to pretend like they are doing something, when those checks only add up to 17% of the total spent - the other 83% is THEFT of our currency.

Buy crypto, buy weapons, protect your families from the accelerating fall of the US.
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I think they are going to do a switcheroo, cancel all FIAT debt and move to a regulated crypto currency. At the same time they might introduce UBI to 'flatten' the poverty curve all in the name of social justice.
And by cancel all debt i mean, cancel all 'their' debt not yours :LOL:

I don't take a positive or negative stance on the above outcome. like any system there will be winners and losers.
 
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GNUse_the_force said:
I think they are going to do a switcheroo, cancel all FIAT debt and move to a regulated crypto currency. At the same time they might introduce UBI to 'flatten' the poverty curve all in the name of social justice.
And by cancel all debt i mean, cancel all 'their' debt not yours :LOL:

I don't take a positive or negative stance on the above outcome. like any system there will be winners and losers.
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EmqXpzLUwAAIKPB.jpg
 
idiomatic said:
Why would it be stupid? Payment processors of other currencies are able to confirm actual transactions immediately.

Oh yeah it costs $60 per transaction. Can't wait to buy my coffee with bitcoin.
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If you're talking about large transactions, it's still cheaper and faster than virtually any other method. Western Union charges $160 to send $5000 domestically. I transferred $5000 worth of BTC to another account for about $20 and it took 30 minutes.
 
kirbyrj said:
If you're talking about large transactions, it's still cheaper and faster than virtually any other method. Western Union charges $160 to send $5000 domestically. I transferred $5000 worth of BTC to another account for about $20 and it took 30 minutes.
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Euro to euro bank is impressive cost and speed wise (it is less than 50 cents I think and almost instant), north america in that regard is quite behind it is true.

But say when you compare with paypal for small-mid transaction of just $1000-$5000, is it that different fee and time wise ?
 
LukeTbk said:
Euro to euro bank is impressive cost and speed wise (it is less than 50 cents I think and almost instant), north america in that regard is quite behind it is true.

But say when you compare with paypal for small-mid transaction of just $1000-$5000, is it that different fee and time wise ?
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There are many alternatives to Bitcoin that transmit large sums of crypto faster and for far lower fees. Bitcoin has first mover advantage, but it likely will be replaced by other, better cryptos.
 
M76 said:
Not so different, both are selfish and greedy opportunists with no regard for tomorrow.
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I sometimes wonder if NVIDIA has those GPU scalpers on their non-existent payroll. Seriously, stranger things than this have happened in the past.
 
auntjemima said:
I still don't see how crypto miners are selfish. Or, I guess, why more selfish than people who invest in the stock market. You put money into something in the hopes for a return.
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Investing in the stock market doesn't require you to buy equipment that could be better utilized to actually create value (value to society / civilization that is) And there are more things gpus are used for than gaming including research, data analysis and processing. And I know the apologists say that gaming is just as worthless waste of energy as bitcoin, but if you use that argument that means Romans from B.C.E are smarter than you. Because they realized the value of entertainment in making a stable society.

And no, giving cryptomining dedicated hardware does not alleviate the problem. Of course since the gpu shortage the apologists have started using ah "you're just bitter becasue you couldn't get a gpu" non-argument. Completely disregarding that the same people has been speaking out about the dangers and unsustainability of crypto many years prior.

kirbyrj said:
The argument always boils down to the environmental impact. But these same people disregard the fact that China produces a lot of their goods with virtually no regard for the environment or the human rights issues of its citizens.
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And what is wrong with the environmental impact argument? You can't even deny it you just gloss over it, you are not obi wan, your mind tricks are weak. Including your "two wrongs makes a who cares" fallacy. I'm no fan of china, but even if I were why would that nullify the environmental argument against cryptomining? I guess the fact that China is was responsible for most mining until very recently also doesn't bother you at all?

auntjemima said:
You say imaginary, but the US dollar is no different. I would say the cost of printing money can be just as poor of a way to create something.
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You not understanding the difference does not mean there is none. As explained many times in many topics filled with crypto apologists, the value of a nation's currency is backed up by the economic power of said nation. What does crypto have to back it up? The monetary value of electricity wasted? LOL
 
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LukeTbk said:
Euro to euro bank is impressive cost and speed wise (it is less than 50 cents I think and almost instant), north america in that regard is quite behind it is true.

But say when you compare with paypal for small-mid transaction of just $1000-$5000, is it that different fee and time wise ?
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I used $5000 because that's the highest Western Union would put in without registering. BTC obviously can scle higher and lower.

BTC also lets you transfer anywhere in the world without regard to bank or country border.

PayPal is an interesting comparison. There is a delay moving in and out of your bank account but I guess that would be the same transferring in and out of a wallet to spend.
 
M76 said:
Investing in the stock market doesn't require you to buy equipment that could be better utilized to actually create value (value to society / civilization that is) And there are more things gpus are used for than gaming including research, data analysis and processing.
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So, if I just BUY the crypto, without mining it, is that somehow different for you? A business burns power for buildings in many forms. For transportation if they are a company that uses many vehicles... There aren't any companies out there that aren't using fossil fuels in one way or another.

If I buy gpus and use them to make $3000, how is that different than a company renting a place, paying for the electricity there and then creating a profit? I assure you, the power cost of my few cards comes nowhere near running a business, as far as electrical use goes.
 
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auntjemima said:
So, if I just BUY the crypto, without mining it, is that somehow different for you? A business burns power for buildings in many forms. For transportation if they are a company that uses many vehicles... There aren't any companies out there that aren't using fossil fuels in one way or another.

If I buy gpus and use them to make $3000, how is that different than a company renting a place, paying for the electricity there and then creating a profit? I assure you, the power cost of my few cards comes nowhere near running a business, as far as electrical use goes.
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Buying crypto, a single transaction, uses more energy that 100,000 visa transactions. The only upsides are being horny for the new shiny, riding the ponzi up, or trying to do something off books that you cant use cash for.
 
Visa is not a settlement network. It is not a self contained system.

You need to add the energy of the world banking system, the federal reserve and the military.

Energy usage doesn’t scale with Bitcoin transaction count. Single Bitcoin transactions can also send money to many iinputs at once. And then there are side chains, which can batch millions of transactions to a single base layer transaction.
 
insectomorph said:
Visa is not a settlement network. It is not a self contained system.

You need to add the energy of the world banking system, the federal reserve and the military.

Energy usage doesn’t scale with Bitcoin transaction count. Single Bitcoin transactions can also send money to many iinputs at once. And then there are side chains, which can batch millions of transactions to a single base layer transaction.
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If you have to add in all that to make your side look good your tech is bullshit.
 
M76 said:
And what is wrong with the environmental impact argument? You can't even deny it you just gloss over it, you are not obi wan, your mind tricks are weak. Including your "two wrongs makes a who cares" fallacy. I'm no fan of china, but even if I were why would that nullify the environmental argument against cryptomining? I guess the fact that China is was responsible for most mining until very recently also doesn't bother you at all?
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I'm pointing out it is hypocritical. Certain people pretend to care about the environment until it affects them. Lets face it. If BTC were mined using 100% renewable forms of energy, you'd still think it was a waste.

idiomatic said:
If you have to add in all that to make your side look good your tech is bullshit.
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Or you're just missing the point.
 
idiomatic said:
If you have to add in all that to make your side look good your tech is bullshit.
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I’m literally telling you transactions are going to scale orders of magnitude from here using the same energy.

There is no convincing you and that’s fine. Bitcoin doesn’t need you.
 
insectomorph said:
I’m literally telling you transactions are going to scale orders of magnitude from here using the same energy.

There is no convincing you and that’s fine. Bitcoin doesn’t need you.
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10 years ago I was him, so I get it. In the end, 40 years from now, he will regret it.

I mean, when first emerging, crypto can seem stupid, pointless, whatever adjective people want to use, but now, with so many coins and actual companies behind it, it's no longer nothing.
 
You know a product is a purely speculation based get rich quick scam when a tweet by one man can wipe out half of its value.

That crypto crap is just like stocks in an actual company...
 
Twisted Kidney said:
You know a product is a purely speculation based get rich quick scam when a tweet by one man can wipe out half of its value.

That crypto crap is just like stocks in an actual company...
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You know a that a currency is a worthless when the government can print as much as they want.
 
techie81 said:
You know a that a currency is a worthless when the government can print as much as they want.
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Difference is that most economies can't buy enough of our bonds that has virtually no return. They're not even chasing yield, they're after safety. One thing crypto is not is safe. It's a tulip. And then there's everyone screaming inflation. Problem is inflation is projected to be low. For reference, 1995, which had low inflation, was about .5% higher than the projected inflation rate.
 
insectomorph said:
immutability
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For bitcoin? Sure, but there's always another crypto. The only value I see in crypto is the underlying technology, but bitcoin as a currency itself? I don't even know what I can buy, other than a copy of Anydvd, drugs and ransom money if my HD is encrypted by criminals. I'm no fan of gold, but if your thing is hedging against inflation, it does that. Of course the problem is there's virtually no inflation and if I compare the S&P return from 74 to present vs gold, the inflation hedge, I'd be depressed if I owned gold. Maybe crypto will pan out. Maybe it won't, but the S&P has averaged around 10% for over 100 years. I'll take that over tulips every time.
 
nilepez said:
For bitcoin? Sure, but there's always another crypto. The only value I see in crypto is the underlying technology, but bitcoin as a currency itself? I don't even know what I can buy, other than a copy of Anydvd, drugs and ransom money if my HD is encrypted by criminals. I'm no fan of gold, but if your thing is hedging against inflation, it does that. Of course the problem is there's virtually no inflation and if I compare the S&P return from 74 to present vs gold, the inflation hedge, I'd be depressed if I owned gold. Maybe crypto will pan out. Maybe it won't, but the S&P has averaged around 10% for over 100 years. I'll take that over tulips every time.
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I don't know where you live, inflation is very apparent here in Florida, from Gas, Lumber, Food and of course computer stuff. Prices are not just higher but ridiculously higher. Also, taxes should also be included in any inflation numbers since that also takes away from your purchasing power. If everything was the same but yet your taxes goes up 20%, well I think you get what I mean.

As for Gold, Silver, Platinum and other metals, they also have an industrial usage which affects price. So are they totally an inflationary hedge, I don't think so but much better than most currencies in the present.

As for Crypto in general, when your dealing with around 4000 Crypto currencies and inflating more and more (who said Crypto is not inflating, lol). The tech is unique, first stages, being tested, accepted or not, some actually have real value backing them up while others are more speculative in value with endless evangelist preaching and followers following (like they always do), save the world and feel good if you participate and you are evil if you don't extremes. Anyways, most I would say are crap like Dogecoin (yet you have many supporting it). There is another aspect that probably is a very big influence and that is that we can decide what is considered valuable or not and not have to have a government dictate to us what we have to accept -> Freedom so to speak -> At least in that aspect. Powerful force maybe , principal, no deception, foolproof, straightforward, as more and more governments are being untrustworthy with their currencies.
 
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kirbyrj said:
I'm pointing out it is hypocritical. Certain people pretend to care about the environment until it affects them. Lets face it. .
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You are still not addressing the environmental and economical impact. Who cares there are hypocritical people? They existed before crypto and will long after, that is not an excuse. I can't burn my plant waste in my backyard due to the environmental impact, but somehow crypto is OK, because it benefits you monetarily?

If BTC were mined using 100% renewable forms of energy, you'd still think it was a waste
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Of course it is a waste. You are stating the obvious. renewable energy does not grow on trees (pun intended) you still need to invest into the infrastructure to make it happen. So the only way crypto was not a waste if crypto had its own eelectricity grid with its own power plants funded and built exclusively by cryptominers. But it isn't, so they are leeches on the grid that is built and maintained by our taxes and electricity bills. If 100% renewable goes to crypto and we still burn other fuels to run our factories then which one should we shut down? Crypto or the factories actually producing goods?
And besides it is not 100% renewable now is it?
 
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techie81 said:
You know a that a currency is a worthless when the government can print as much as they want.
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This ability also helped prevent a global collapse into economic depression during the COVID shutdown. If we were all on Bitcoin and limited to 21 million, a lot of people would have been in soup kitchen lines for reasons outside of their control. I’m not going to disagree that countries printed a stupid amount of money during COVID, much of it unnecessary, but the alternative was the Great Depression. If that’s the kind of world you want to live in, then great, fix the money supply.

In any case, this “scarcity” argument with crypto is BS. There are now thousands of different cryptos out there. They can be created with a push of a button, just like USD. Yes, the BTC algorithm forces scarcity of BTC, but there’s nothing stopping someone from creating a competitor, or forking it (BCH), or whatever. It would also be necessary to expand the money supply as the economy grows, so it’s not workable to have a “deflationary” currency with a fixed supply.
 
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M76 said:
You are still not addressing the environmental and economical impact. Who cares there are hypocritical people? They existed before crypto and will long after, that is not an excuse. I can't burn my plant waste in my backyard due to the environmental impact, but somehow crypto is OK, because it benefits you monetarily?



Of course it is a waste. You are stating the obvious. renewable energy does not grow on trees (pun intended) you still need to invest into the infrastructure to make it happen. So the only way crypto was not a waste if crypto had its own eelectricity grid with its own power plants funded and built exclusively by cryptominers. But it isn't, so they are leeches on the grid that is built and maintained by our taxes and electricity bills. If 100% renewable goes to crypto and we still burn other fuels to run our factories then which one should we shut down? Crypto or the factories actually producing goods?
And besides it is not 100% renewable now is it?
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You aren't addressing them either unless you think, "Crypto uses energy = bad" is an argument. Last time I checked, I don't really see how an individual miner is a leech if he pays his electric bill and taxes. I didn't realize that you were the one who could dictate how the electrical grid should operate and who is worthy of electricity and who isn't.

But you proved my point. It doesn't matter what crypto does or can do, you just think it's a waste regardless... I'm sure there are plenty of industries who YOU don't see the value in which can benefit from you shutting off their electricity as Grand Arbiter of who and who cannot use electricity.

So you can go back to driving your unethically sourced cobalt cathode lithium ion battery powered car and pretend that you're making a difference. Maybe you can explain how you made a difference to the dead children in the Congo who mined that cobalt, or the people who can't get water due to lithium mining. But you made a difference and protected the environment. Congrats!
 
HockeyJon said:
This ability also helped prevent a global collapse into economic depression during the COVID shutdown. If we were all on Bitcoin and limited to 21 million, a lot of people would have been in soup kitchen lines for reasons outside of their control. I’m not going to disagree that countries printed a stupid amount of money during COVID, much of it unnecessary, but the alternative was the Great Depression. If that’s the kind of world you want to live in, then great, fix the money supply.
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Printing money is a necessary tool for countries, but obviously you don't want to abuse this tool. Yanis Varoufakis the guy who worked for Valve, wanted to put in a dual currency to prevent the devaluation of the other main currency. You find this a lot in video games as often they introduce a new currency so it doesn't effect another currency when they decide to make the money printer go Brrrrrrr. Like badges and honor in World of Warcraft instead of Gold. Keeps the gold market from fucking out. Back when Blizzard cared about the Gold market in WoW.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...yanis-varoufakis-2016-01?barrier=accesspaylog
In any case, this “scarcity” argument with crypto is BS. There are now thousands of different cryptos out there. They can be created with a push of a button, just like USD. Yes, the BTC algorithm forces scarcity of BTC, but there’s nothing stopping someone from creating a competitor, or forking it (BCH), or whatever. It would also be necessary to expand the money supply as the economy grows, so it’s not workable to have a “deflationary” currency with a fixed supply.
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What we're seeing is exactly the same situation of the .com boom. Lots of people putting money in what's the next get rich quick scheme. Just like the .com boom, the bubble will burst for crypto. Only a few crypto currencies will make it out of the bubble pop as the primary crypto currencies. Most people don't even know what gives them value. The only thing giving crypto value is that people believe it does. Unless you can buy things with crypto, you will find that it won't hold value for long.
 
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