AWS Engineer put Windows 10 for ARM on Apple Mac M1

rflcptr

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Promising. Hoping to snag the rumored M1X MBP 16” in a few months
 

paradoxical

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My dream laptop:

Apple Macbook Pro 13 M1X (8 high speed cores)
32GB Ram
4TB PCIE 4.0 SSD
MacOS/PopOS/Windows 10 triple boot
4x Thunderbolt 3 ports

I'd pay $5k for that without blinking. I could consolidate two different laptops into one plus gain huge performance increases. I want a M1 Macbook so bad, but I can't give up virtualization and I need more than 2TB and 2 thunderbolt ports. A M1X with the above specs plus virtualization and linux support would be absolutely insane for a power user who spends 100 days on the road per year (well, before COVID anyway), but also does heavy video editing and scientific computing.
 

DukenukemX

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My dream laptop:

Apple Macbook Pro 13 M1X (8 high speed cores)
32GB Ram
4TB PCIE 4.0 SSD
MacOS/PopOS/Windows 10 triple boot
4x Thunderbolt 3 ports

I'd pay $5k for that without blinking. I could consolidate two different laptops into one plus gain huge performance increases. I want a M1 Macbook so bad, but I can't give up virtualization and I need more than 2TB and 2 thunderbolt ports. A M1X with the above specs plus virtualization and linux support would be absolutely insane for a power user who spends 100 days on the road per year (well, before COVID anyway), but also does heavy video editing and scientific computing.
You say that now but realize that these M1's are new and don't have the software ready yet. I'm starting to see M1 users complain that their software of choice isn't working because reasons. Like this poor bastard who's trying to run Citra on his M1. I imagine Citra can't be compiled yet for the M1 even though there's an Android ARM port.
 

vegeta535

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Of course it will run faster. It is a more powerful arms SoC then what is in the Surface. I don't care about Apple products and as a company as a whole but their ARM chips are pretty damn good for what they are. I can even acknowledge that as a Apple hater.
 

rflcptr

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You say that now but realize that these M1's are new and don't have the software ready yet. I'm starting to see M1 users complain that their software of choice isn't working because reasons. Like this poor bastard who's trying to run Citra on his M1. I imagine Citra can't be compiled yet for the M1 even though there's an Android ARM port.
Early adopter: some of my existing stuff isn’t working but software is being developed

Alarmist: oh no what are we gonna do?
 

paradoxical

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You say that now but realize that these M1's are new and don't have the software ready yet. I'm starting to see M1 users complain that their software of choice isn't working because reasons. Like this poor bastard who's trying to run Citra on his M1. I imagine Citra can't be compiled yet for the M1 even though there's an Android ARM port.

Yeah, that's why I'm waiting a bit (other than the fact that hardware isn't out yet). I do have confidence that in time the software will be ported over, and the scientific computing stuff I use already runs on linux arm so I'm not worried about that. Once the adobe suite fully is ported, a higher spec M1X will be the ideal laptop for me.
 

GoodBoy

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Faster than a tablet doesn't say much. Maybe as another laptop? Put 100 cores in it, probably be good for something.
 

Aurelius

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Faster than a tablet doesn't say much. Maybe as another laptop? Put 100 cores in it, probably be good for something.
It's already faster than low-power Intel laptops (around 15W and below), and in some respects faster than higher-powered Intel and AMD chips. This is really adding commentary to the sad state of Windows on ARM.

For that matter, there's also a mounting concern that Windows as a whole may be left behind in some areas if it's chained to x86. Yeah, compatibility will keep many people using Windows, but the last thing Microsoft wants to hear is "if you want to buy the fastest computer in many instances, you have to buy a Mac." No, there probably won't be a gigantic shift in market share, but I doubt Microsoft (or Intel, or AMD) would relish losing even a few points.
 

DukenukemX

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It's already faster than low-power Intel laptops (around 15W and below), and in some respects faster than higher-powered Intel and AMD chips. This is really adding commentary to the sad state of Windows on ARM.
Unless ARM has any significant advantages over x86, then we won't see Windows on ARM become successful. Even on my RPI3 the only really usable distro is Raspian, and it's advantage is being super cheap.
For that matter, there's also a mounting concern that Windows as a whole may be left behind in some areas if it's chained to x86. Yeah, compatibility will keep many people using Windows, but the last thing Microsoft wants to hear is "if you want to buy the fastest computer in many instances, you have to buy a Mac." No, there probably won't be a gigantic shift in market share, but I doubt Microsoft (or Intel, or AMD) would relish losing even a few points.
Fortunately the fastest computer isn't a Mac M1. Very good in it's power class but not the fastest. Even the i7 iMac is much faster in most productivity applications than the M1. That doesn't mean Apple won't make a faster variety of the M1, which could be the M1X. That also doesn't mean that AMD and Intel won't also come back with a more power efficient CPU themselves.

The future of ARM and RISC-V is going to be Linux. Linux already has the best setup to shift quickly to either architecture, due to most applications already being open source. When Hector Martin makes a Linux Distro for the M1, you can be assured that getting most existing applications for it working won't be a problem. This was such a problem for Apple that they implemented some x86 hardware features into the M1 for backwards compatibility.
 
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paradoxical

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Unless ARM has any significant advantages over x86, then we won't see Windows on ARM become successful. Even on my RPI3 the only really usable distro is Raspian, and it's advantage is being super cheap.

Fortunately the fastest computer isn't a Mac M1. Very good in it's power class but not the fastest. Even the i7 iMac is much faster in most productivity applications than the M1. That doesn't mean Apple won't make a faster variety of the M1, which could the be M1X. That also doesn't mean that AMD and Intel won't also come back with a more power efficient CPU themselves.

The future of ARM and RISC-V is going to be Linux. Linux already has the best setup to shift quickly to either architecture, due to most applications already being open source. When Hector Martin makes a Linux Distro for the M1, you can be assured that getting most existing applications for it working won't be a problem. This was such a problem for Apple that they implemented some x86 hardware features into the M1 for backwards compatibility.

I have a fully maxed out Macbook Pro 13 x86 from 2020 and the M1 benchmarks stomp all over it. There is no other 13 inch laptop on the market - pc or mac - that has a faster CPU. When the M1X comes out the performance delta between a comparable 13 inch x86 laptop and the MBP M1x is going to be laughable.
 
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When Hector Martin makes a Linux Distro for the M1, you can be assured that getting most existing applications for it working won't be a problem. This was such a problem for Apple that they implemented some x86 hardware features into the M1 for backwards compatibility.

this is disingenuous at best. They implemented memory protocols for x86 applications for the processor to use when running under Rosetta, because it was easier than doing it in software, and Rosetta was put in place for applications that haven’t been ported yet.

Apple has already ported (most, if not all?) of their applications, so have plenty of other developers. Anything written recently that can fit in a universal binary, it’s almost literally a checkbox to compile for native ARM.

But Rosetta will be there for the stragglers. for a little while, at least. I wouldn’t say it was a “problem” for Apple at all.

It might be a problem for developers who haven’t been paying attention to Apple’s APIs and documentation over the last couple years, though.

(This is one area where Apple differs significantly from Microsoft - at some point they will update APIs or remove support for old ones, and developers who haven’t bothered updating their applications in a couple years end up having to either rewrite everything or abandon their application.)

I get what you’re trying to say, but if Linux on arm is going to be so easy, where’s all the Linux distros for arm that aren’t platform specific and require jumping through hoops to install? There’s plenty of low power arm boards available, but every one needs its own specific distro and capabilities vary wildly from one to the other.

A native Linux on M1 will be nice to see but unless there’s a significant change in how ARM boards and their Linux distros are handled (general Ubuntu for ARM that will run on anything aarch64, for instance), it’s going to continue to be niche for a while.

Ubuntu, for instance, has “Ubuntu for IoT” listed on its download page, and that’s where they put the raspberry pi stuff. Ubuntu server for ARM even links to this hilariously outdated set of installation guides that hasn’t been updated in over 3 years.

basicaly, unless Broadcom suddenly decides to put together a SoC for a high power, expensive raspberry pi board, or Qualcomm suddenly puts out all the open source code needed for snapdragon to run general Linux, I doubt we’re going to see significant improvement in generally available Linux for arm.

(and I’d like to point out: I would love a snapdragon-based desktop or laptop that could run Ubuntu but I think I’m the only one who would actually buy something like that).
 

DukenukemX

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I have a fully maxed out Macbook Pro 13 x86 from 2020 and the M1 benchmarks stomp all over it. There is no other 13 inch laptop on the market - pc or mac - that has a faster CPU. When the M1X comes out the performance delta between a comparable 13 inch x86 laptop and the MBP M1x is going to be laughable.
That's fine but I'm specifically talking about the iMac 27" 2020, which is using a Core i9 10 core high performance Intel chip.


this is disingenuous at best. They implemented memory protocols for x86 applications for the processor to use when running under Rosetta, because it was easier than doing it in software, and Rosetta was put in place for applications that haven’t been ported yet.
Doesn't change the fact that Apple has wasted silicon to gain better x86 performance. It was that much of a priority for Apple.
Apple has already ported (most, if not all?) of their applications, so have plenty of other developers. Anything written recently that can fit in a universal binary, it’s almost literally a checkbox to compile for native ARM.
I'd expect Apple to port all their apps to the M1, but this is not the same as Linux where (most, if not all?) of anyone's apps will get ported over to ARM.
(This is one area where Apple differs significantly from Microsoft - at some point they will update APIs or remove support for old ones, and developers who haven’t bothered updating their applications in a couple years end up having to either rewrite everything or abandon their application.)
Which screws over the consumer. You're not making this sound good.
I get what you’re trying to say, but if Linux on arm is going to be so easy, where’s all the Linux distros for arm that aren’t platform specific and require jumping through hoops to install?
How many ARM platforms you see that are like x86 where it's universal and there's no hoops to overcome to install it? Almost all ARM based machines are locked down and prevent anyone from doing anything without the manufacturers permission, with the exception of the Raspberry Pi's. Even porting Linux to the M1 requires a lot of work because Apple hasn't donated any code to support their new hardware. As Linus Torvalds explains.

"I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time. The new Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don't have the time to tinker with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don't want to help." "The main problem with the M1 for me is the GPU and other devices around it, because that's likely what would hold me off using it because it wouldn't have any Linux support unless Apple opens up."

There’s plenty of low power arm boards available, but every one needs its own specific distro and capabilities vary wildly from one to the other.
Not Linux's fault. It's easy on x86 because we forget the x86 we use today is based on IBM's design years ago. Modern x86 machines are still IBM compatible machines. ARM doesn't have any standard to go by and therefore nearly each machine needs it's own special treatment. This is not Linux's fault but the hardware manufacturers fault, including Apple. This is where I hope Nvidia may jump in and standardize ARM. Each ARM machine has unique methods to boot and that's what's holding back ARM right now. You ever try putting a custom rom onto a Android phone? They're custom because everyone has a different method for booting the OS. This goes beyond per manufacturer to even per device.
 

paradoxical

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That's fine but I'm specifically talking about the iMac 27" 2020, which is using a Core i9 10 core high performance Intel chip.
Yeah, that's kind of my point. Apple's silicon is so good that their $999 ultrabook not just outperforms every PC 13in laptop, but you need to step up to a desktop to find a comparable x86 chip at 5x the power budget and 2x the price.

The M1X is going to wipe the floor with other X86 laptops to a hilarious level.
 
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You’re just reinforcing my point though- Linux on M1 won’t matter for Linux on arm any more than, you know, raspberry pi 5 or whatever other arm platform comes along next.

you make it sound like arm will be good for Linux, and be a big deal, but it’s a platform-specific locked down proprietary mess right now. Someone getting a native Linux distro running on M1 won’t change that.

Which screws over the consumer. You're not making this sound good.

/shrug. Apple’s customers don’t seem to care, and they’re the only ones that matter to Apple.

generally the Apple developer base keeps up with it.

It’s a lot like Linux development IMO. unless someone maintains the code it ends up not compiling on newer distros because libraries have been updated, or system components have been replaced.

Microsoft maintaining so much backwards compatibility means developers don’t need to update old code, which to me seems bad for consumers too.
 

Lakados

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You’re just reinforcing my point though- Linux on M1 won’t matter for Linux on arm any more than, you know, raspberry pi 5 or whatever other arm platform comes along next.

you make it sound like arm will be good for Linux, and be a big deal, but it’s a platform-specific locked down proprietary mess right now. Someone getting a native Linux distro running on M1 won’t change that.



/shrug. Apple’s customers don’t seem to care, and they’re the only ones that matter to Apple.

generally the Apple developer base keeps up with it.

It’s a lot like Linux development IMO. unless someone maintains the code it ends up not compiling on newer distros because libraries have been updated, or system components have been replaced.

Microsoft maintaining so much backwards compatibility means developers don’t need to update old code, which to me seems bad for consumers too.
Microsoft’s back catalog is holding them back and they know it. Just about everybody does, and Apples API updates are handed out well in advance, the Mac mini dev kit went out over a year ago for developers to validate against. The only developers who get burned on updates are usually ones who have already abandoned that program or the people who maintain the “cheap” DJ stuff.
 

OFaceSIG

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Unfortunately Intel, AMD, and Microsoft are not confident enough companies to survive 800,000 arm based competitors if a stable viable, open ARM based OS outside of Apple comes to fruition. Since I like my way of life, I say BAH HUMBUG!
 

DukenukemX

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Yeah, that's kind of my point. Apple's silicon is so good that their $999 ultrabook not just outperforms every PC 13in laptop, but you need to step up to a desktop to find a comparable x86 chip at 5x the power budget and 2x the price.

The M1X is going to wipe the floor with other X86 laptops to a hilarious level.
Ryzen is currently the best CPU for laptops and they're outdated compared to the desktop Ryzen 5000 series. Which is why you see so many Ryzen 5600X benchmarks because AMD hasn't updated their mobile chips yet for Zen3. Intel has dropped the ball long ago when it comes to laptop performance which is why they're not even a consideration when it comes to pitting against the M1. For whatever reason AMD is behind in their laptop chips in terms of their own technology. They're not using Zen3 for CPU cores and they're not even using RDNA1 for graphics, let alone RDNA2. When AMD finally updates their mobile APU's then the M1 may fall behind. Also most Ryzen 4700 and 4900 laptops are not $999. You want to compare the M1 then you should look at the ASUS ROG Zephyrus G14 14". Other than battery life it beats the M1 in almost everything, and that's still outdated in terms of what technology AMD has access to.
 

DukenukemX

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you make it sound like arm will be good for Linux, and be a big deal, but it’s a platform-specific locked down proprietary mess right now. Someone getting a native Linux distro running on M1 won’t change that.
The idea is when Linux is working then things like software being ported is not as much of an issue as compared to Mac OSX. For example VLC is not yet ported to the Apple M1 but does work through Rosetta2. If Linux was ported then VLC would have been ported immediately, because that's how Linux do. The large and vast repository system that Linux has makes porting open source applications super easy. Apple depends on developers to port their applications, which they will do because unlike Linux, there's money to be made on Mac.
/shrug. Apple’s customers don’t seem to care, and they’re the only ones that matter to Apple.
Apple consumers are usually not the smartest group of people. Who else would buy a $1k machine and become the beta tester?
generally the Apple developer base keeps up with it.
Eventually they will, but that depends on how many people own a M1. The more people who own a M1 then the more reason developers have to port their apps. Hence why Apple has Rosetta2.
It’s a lot like Linux development IMO. unless someone maintains the code it ends up not compiling on newer distros because libraries have been updated, or system components have been replaced.
For the most part, open source code will always be maintained if people use it. How many proprietary applications on Mac you see open source?
Microsoft maintaining so much backwards compatibility means developers don’t need to update old code, which to me seems bad for consumers too.
Developers don't maintain code on Mac or Windows unless there's money to be made. Most likely developers will just make a new version of their software and require you to buy it... again, because that amount of work isn't free. The fact that Rosetta2 exists and works is reason enough for most developers not to care as well.

This is the same problem Linux has with Wine and Proton. Why would developers port their games or applications to Linux when Wine and Proton does the job? You can think of Wine and Proton like Rosetta2, in that it allows developers to be lazy. Everyone knows it's better to port the application natively than to run it through some layer or emulation. Developers do not have a good track record for maintaining their apps. There's a reason why even Apple uses Linux for their servers, because open source tends to avoid these problems.
 

Lakados

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Developers don't maintain code on Mac or Windows unless there's money to be made. Most likely developers will just make a new version of their software and require you to buy it... again, because that amount of work isn't free. The fact that Rosetta2 exists and works is reason enough for most developers not to care as well.
That’s true to a point, but if your competitors update their code for a native arm solution and you don’t and theirs is faster as a result they will move.

In regards to the intelligence of Mac users generally you are going to be right but there are a number of things Apple does that others don’t in regards to Audio and Video software that if you are in the business of using them to make money there is no PC or Linux equivalent. But that topic has been beaten to death, but if you look at the M1 reviews the AV and Audio softwares that are running native are punching well above their weight class.
 

paradoxical

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In regards to the intelligence of Mac users generally you are going to be right but there are a number of things Apple does that others don’t in regards to Audio and Video software that if you are in the business of using them to make money there is no PC or Linux equivalent. But that topic has been beaten to death, but if you look at the M1 reviews the AV and Audio softwares that are running native are punching well above their weight class.

Not to mention the fact that the Macbook Pro has BY FAR the best I/O of any laptop in the world with 4 thunderbolt 3 ports. There is literally no PC laptop at any price I could plug into my professional workflow because none of them can hang with I/O. Daisy chaining multiple high bandwidth peripherals off of one or two thunderbolt 3 ports like PC laptops have just wouldn't work.
 

paradoxical

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I would argue there is less to Beta test on the latest MacOS platform than there is on latest 20H2 update.

We just lost a full day of work due to windows. One of my engineers went to update AWR (a circuit simulation program) but it crashed halfway through and the installer wouldn't run again. So he went to uninstall, and somehow it blew away his entire program files folder. His computer is now stuck in a state where it thinks there is nothing installed, yet he can't install anything because it says "it's currently installed."

I love how I have guys working for me who literally wrote our own custom linux kernel to work on our ARM based SOC with no problems, but trying to use windows for 10 minutes still royally fucks us.

MacOS on my hackintosh is 50x more stable than Windows is. I can literally update directly from the Apple store with zero hacking and no trickery and it works every time, but 20% of the time I get a windows update it breaks my windows install.

PopOS is pretty freaking fantastic as well. It also "just works" (if you have any linux experience whatsoever) and is a great environment to be in for a power user.
 

Lakados

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We just lost a full day of work due to windows. One of my engineers went to update AWR (a circuit simulation program) but it crashed halfway through and the installer wouldn't run again. So he went to uninstall, and somehow it blew away his entire program files folder. His computer is now stuck in a state where it thinks there is nothing installed, yet he can't install anything because it says "it's currently installed."

I love how I have guys working for me who literally wrote our own custom linux kernel to work on our ARM based SOC with no problems, but trying to use windows for 10 minutes still royally fucks us.

MacOS on my hackintosh is 50x more stable than Windows is. I can literally update directly from the Apple store with zero hacking and no trickery and it works every time, but 20% of the time I get a windows update it breaks my windows install.

PopOS is pretty freaking fantastic as well. It also "just works" (if you have any linux experience whatsoever) and is a great environment to be in for a power user.
I’ve seen it, it’s why when my Mac users need a new machine I don’t try to sell them on a PC, and my PC users I won’t push to a Mac. They know what they know and they work well in those confines, but I’m not going to push them into environments they don’t because it’s a huge PITA for everybody in the vicinity.
 

DukenukemX

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Literally every single Windows 10 user
As much as I dislike Windows... no. The difference here isn't just the OS but a backlog of software that may not work or work properly on the M1. On Windows 10 the issues with software are stuff that's like 20 years old, where with the new M1 could be new software as well as old.

Not to mention the fact that the Macbook Pro has BY FAR the best I/O of any laptop in the world with 4 thunderbolt 3 ports. There is literally no PC laptop at any price I could plug into my professional workflow because none of them can hang with I/O. Daisy chaining multiple high bandwidth peripherals off of one or two thunderbolt 3 ports like PC laptops have just wouldn't work.
Technically it's USB 4 and there's only 2 of them on the Apple M1. Also, USB 4 is USB 3.1 Gen 2 with Thunderbolt 3 support. Thunderbolt 4 is out and on other laptops, which is just a glorified USB-C port. I wouldn't call the MacBook Pro having the best I/O when other laptops have Thunderbolt 4, but considering there's almost no difference in performance it doesn't really matter. It still doesn't make the Macbook Pro m1 the best.
 

Lakados

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As much as I dislike Windows... no. The difference here isn't just the OS but a backlog of software that may not work or work properly on the M1. On Windows 10 the issues with software are stuff that's like 20 years old, where with the new M1 could be new software as well as old.


Technically it's USB 4 and there's only 2 of them on the Apple M1. Also, USB 4 is USB 3.1 Gen 2 with Thunderbolt 3 support. Thunderbolt 4 is out and on other laptops, which is just a glorified USB-C port. I wouldn't call the MacBook Pro having the best I/O when other laptops have Thunderbolt 4, but considering there's almost no difference in performance it doesn't really matter. It still doesn't make the Macbook Pro m1 the best.
2 on the M1 but the old Intel 2020 16” has the 4, I would expect the same number on the new 16 if not 2 more when they get around to launching it.
 

Red Falcon

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How many ARM platforms you see that are like x86 where it's universal and there's no hoops to overcome to install it? Almost all ARM based machines are locked down and prevent anyone from doing anything without the manufacturers permission, with the exception of the Raspberry Pi's. Even porting Linux to the M1 requires a lot of work because Apple hasn't donated any code to support their new hardware. As Linus Torvalds explains.

"I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time. The new Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don't have the time to tinker with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don't want to help." "The main problem with the M1 for me is the GPU and other devices around it, because that's likely what would hold me off using it because it wouldn't have any Linux support unless Apple opens up."

Not Linux's fault. It's easy on x86 because we forget the x86 we use today is based on IBM's design years ago. Modern x86 machines are still IBM compatible machines. ARM doesn't have any standard to go by and therefore nearly each machine needs it's own special treatment. This is not Linux's fault but the hardware manufacturers fault, including Apple. This is where I hope Nvidia may jump in and standardize ARM. Each ARM machine has unique methods to boot and that's what's holding back ARM right now. You ever try putting a custom rom onto a Android phone? They're custom because everyone has a different method for booting the OS. This goes beyond per manufacturer to even per device.
Hit the nail on head - fully agreed.
ARM platforms do need to be standardized the way x86-16 through x86-64 platforms (IBM-compatible PC) have.

I hope that Apple will push forward ARM development in software, but beyond that their platform and OS are highly anti-consumer and are extremely closed-source.
+1 for the Raspberry Pi SBC environments and their support - that is an ARM platform done right.
 

paradoxical

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As much as I dislike Windows... no. The difference here isn't just the OS but a backlog of software that may not work or work properly on the M1. On Windows 10 the issues with software are stuff that's like 20 years old, where with the new M1 could be new software as well as old.


Technically it's USB 4 and there's only 2 of them on the Apple M1. Also, USB 4 is USB 3.1 Gen 2 with Thunderbolt 3 support. Thunderbolt 4 is out and on other laptops, which is just a glorified USB-C port. I wouldn't call the MacBook Pro having the best I/O when other laptops have Thunderbolt 4, but considering there's almost no difference in performance it doesn't really matter. It still doesn't make the Macbook Pro m1 the best.
My curent Intel MBP has 4 TB3 ports, and unlike any PC laptop on the market can run an eGPU, external NVME array, 40GBe for scientific equipment, and USB3 hub/10GBe docking station/an entire workstation's worth of peripherals all at full speed per port. I'd say that pretty much dominates the I/O of any PC laptop.
 

DukenukemX

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My curent Intel MBP has 4 TB3 ports, and unlike any PC laptop on the market can run an eGPU, external NVME array, 40GBe for scientific equipment, and USB3 hub/10GBe docking station/an entire workstation's worth of peripherals all at full speed per port. I'd say that pretty much dominates the I/O of any PC laptop.
Ok... we are talking about the Apple M1 here right? Cool that you have 4 but Apple seems to have went down to 2 on the new M1 laptops. So it must have not been a big deal to have 4 if Apple is fine with 2.
 
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My curent Intel MBP has 4 TB3 ports, and unlike any PC laptop on the market can run an eGPU, external NVME array, 40GBe for scientific equipment, and USB3 hub/10GBe docking station/an entire workstation's worth of peripherals all at full speed per port. I'd say that pretty much dominates the I/O of any PC laptop.
If you have all that equipment, why would you even be using a laptop?
 

Red Falcon

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Ok... we are talking about the Apple M1 here right? Cool that you have 4 but Apple seems to have went down to 2 on the new M1 laptops. So it must have not been a big deal to have 4 if Apple is fine with 2.
I get the feeling Apple is going to start segmenting their product lines even further, perhaps adding a Mac Mini Pro or something that will be full-featured out of the box.
Guessing that if they did this, it would be due to a cost-savings measure, perhaps as an indirect result of the SoC being used on each system and what integration is included in each SoC.
 
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The idea is when Linux is working then things like software being ported is not as much of an issue as compared to Mac OSX. For example VLC is not yet ported to the Apple M1 but does work through Rosetta2. If Linux was ported then VLC would have been ported immediately, because that's how Linux do. The large and vast repository system that Linux has makes porting open source applications super easy. Apple depends on developers to port their applications, which they will do because unlike Linux, there's money to be made on Mac.

Except it's not "how Linux do."

VLC has already been ported to arm, has been for years afaik. (at least back to Ubuntu 16.04: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/arm64/vlc). But there is no native Mac version. And the two have no relation, really. Because Linux != Mac OS. All that would happen if someone got Linux running natively on M1 hardware is that Linux would then be running on M1 hardware.

If the VLC developers were pushing out Universal Binaries (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/building_a_universal_macos_binary) then it would already be running native code. This information has been available for a while now.

I honestly have no idea why you'd think somebody getting an M1 Mini to run Ubuntu is going to make native code easier for Mac developers than all the tools, documentation and guides they have already provided.
 

Red Falcon

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All that would happen if someone got Linux running natively on M1 hardware is that Linux would then be running on M1 hardware.

I honestly have no idea why you'd think somebody getting an M1 Mini to run Ubuntu is going to make native code easier for Mac developers than all the tools, documentation and guides they have already provided.
You are missing his point.
Getting other operating systems, especially GNU/Linux, running on the Apple ARM64 M1 platform would be a massive boon to the general ARM ISA and Linux communities.

We aren't talking about the Mac developers - they already have MacOS Big Sur, the end.
Getting GNU/Linux running on the Apple ARM64 M1 platform would allow coders, developers, testers, etc. to make things more efficient for the ARM ISA in general - which is why this is so important.

As for Apples tools, documentation, and guides, they are all for MacOS, aka their proprietary closed-source UNIX OS.
This doesn't help anyone other than Apple, and I'm hoping that eventually it will all help move forward software development on ARM in general - this is the one positive silver-lining to Apple moving to ARM.

It would also give us a native platform to directly compare performance between ARM64 and x86-64 when both are running on Linux, and these new Apple ARM computers are just what we are looking for to do this.
 

ND40oz

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My curent Intel MBP has 4 TB3 ports, and unlike any PC laptop on the market can run an eGPU, external NVME array, 40GBe for scientific equipment, and USB3 hub/10GBe docking station/an entire workstation's worth of peripherals all at full speed per port. I'd say that pretty much dominates the I/O of any PC laptop.

But the M1 has half the bandwidth that your current one has with it limited to 2 TB3 ports, so how does help you? Plus it doesn't even support eGPUs at all.
 
D

Deleted member 89018

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You are missing his point.
Getting other operating systems, especially GNU/Linux, running on the Apple ARM64 M1 platform would be a massive boon to the general ARM ISA and Linux communities.

I still don’t see how? aarch64 is already supported. Having it run on M1 just means it will run on M1 in addition to, for instance, raspberry pi 4.

Getting GNU/Linux running on the Apple ARM64 M1 platform would allow coders, developers, testers, etc. to make things more efficient for the ARM ISA in general - which is why this is so important.

again, why would supporting another implementation of an architecture that is already supported make a difference to developers? Has Apple changed aarch64 in some way to make it better than everyone else’s aarch64?

i know it is faster, but it’s the same instruction set, so is this just excitement because they’re the fastest consumer-available arm processors?

It would also give us a native platform to directly compare performance between ARM64 and x86-64 when both are running on Linux, and these new Apple ARM computers are just what we are looking for to do this.

I’m not sure what your criteria for doing a direct comparison here would be. You would compare an M1 system to other Intel-based Macs?

If it’s just ARM vs x86 you want to compare, this could also be done with Samsung’s Galaxy Book S or the Microsoft Surface Pro X.

Assuming for a minute that somehow full GPU and other hardware support could be achieved, adding native support for the M1 platform into the mix just means another aarch64 platform would be bootable right to Linux.

it’s another data point, sure, but I don’t see how running Linux on bare metal M1 systems adds anything to Linux ARM development that isn’t specific to running on M1.
 

paradoxical

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Ok... we are talking about the Apple M1 here right? Cool that you have 4 but Apple seems to have went down to 2 on the new M1 laptops. So it must have not been a big deal to have 4 if Apple is fine with 2.

For the last several years, Apple has always had a lower tier Macbook Pro line with 2 thunderbolt ports, no touch bar, slower CPU, and less SSD options and a higher one with 4 thunderbolt ports, higher performing CPU/SSD, more RAM, and a touchbar.

The M1 macbook released is the lower tier one. You can only go up to 2TB instead of 4 TB, 16GB instead of 32GB, and it only has 2 TB3 ports. The upcoming release will have the higher performing M1X chip, 4 Thunderbolt ports, and higher tier storage options.

I think a lot of the confusion in this thread simply stems from people not being familiar with Apple's product line and release cadence.

If you have all that equipment, why would you even be using a laptop?

We do a lot of mobile data collection where we will haul our equipment around in a SUV. Eventually what we really need to do is build a sprinter van and put a full desktop workstation in it with a mobile rack, but until that is cost effective for us a laptop is the easiest choice.
 

DukenukemX

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VLC has already been ported to arm, has been for years afaik. But there is no native Mac version. And the two have no relation, really.
There seems to be a VLC version for Mac, just not for ARM Mac. Not yet anyway.
Because Linux != Mac OS. All that would happen if someone got Linux running natively on M1 hardware is that Linux would then be running on M1 hardware.
The idea here is that Linux is used to the idea that other platforms may actually use it besides x86. There's a reason why VLC has been ported to ARM years ago while ARM Mac still hasn't.
If the VLC developers were pushing out Universal Binaries (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/building_a_universal_macos_binary) then it would already be running native code. This information has been available for a while now.
Better yet why not FatELF on Linux? In all seriousness the reason why is probably the same reason why developers don't waste time on things like Fat Binaries. Because closed source application vendors need to jump through some rather ugly hoops to support more than one platform. Hence why Apple also included Rosetta2, because they know they struggle as well. Apple has switched CPU platforms so often that I'm surprised developers still continue to develop on Mac. Probably because Mac has a lot of rich idiots who throw money at Apple.
I honestly have no idea why you'd think somebody getting an M1 Mini to run Ubuntu is going to make native code easier for Mac developers than all the tools, documentation and guides they have already provided.
Realistically no Apple fanboy is going to install Ubuntu onto their M1. Considering that Apple has went the way of Nvidia and supplied no open source support, it'll be a while before the M1 sees Linux running on it. The graphic drivers on Apple hardware has like zero documentation and source code from Apple, and would be an immense undertaking to make a working driver for it. But lets say Apple were to supply this info and we got Linux working on it today, then today as a M1 user you'd have less problems waiting for developers to port their open source apps than Mac OSX. As you said Linux has had ARM support for years. Elementary OS is basically a Mac OSX clone running Ubuntu. Considering that Apple is starting from scratch then maybe Linux as a backbone for Mac OSX would have been better. Microsoft is going to do it eventually for Windows.

make-ubuntu-look-like-mac.jpg
 
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