And they still wonder why linux isn't more popular.

Vermillion

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I was trying to install Angry IP Scanner. There's a thread about it around here somewhere.
Yeah I found it. I remember that. I actually just loaded up Manjaro to test this. I enabled the AUR in their Package Manager UI and installed ipscan right from there. No issues at all. I didn't know they had that ability in their UI. Nice stuff.
 

D-EJ915

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Growing up on apt, I wasn't a fan of pacman. I still definately prefer the windows model of self contained installers.
What do you mean by self contained? Do you mean self extracting installers with tons of dependencies being bundled but hidden from sight?
 

travm

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What do you mean by self contained? Do you mean self extracting installers with tons of dependencies being bundled but hidden from sight?
Ideally without tons of dependencies. That is a major issue with usability.
 

Mazzspeed

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Ideally without tons of dependencies. That is a major issue with usability.
Every software package ever made relies on dependencies. Microsoft's .NET is a perfect example. The idea of dependency hell is a relic when it comes to modern package managers under Linux.
 

travm

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Every software package ever made relies on dependencies. Microsoft's .NET is a perfect example. The idea of dependency hell is a relic when it comes to modern package managers under Linux.
Yes. My point was simply the windows method is far simpler. There isn't 100 dependencies to install with every program, and the software just installs and works (mostly). I don't like the Linux methods of installing software. Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows.
Some programs in Linux come with install scripts that work very well (mplabx) but most don't.
 

Bowman15

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Yes. My point was simply the windows method is far simpler. There isn't 100 dependencies to install with every program, and the software just installs and works (mostly). I don't like the Linux methods of installing software. Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows.
Some programs in Linux come with install scripts that work very well (mplabx) but most don't.

I'm a Windows guy but that simply isn't true anymore. Sure if you want some obscure software or need to install some proprietary Windows only programs. But its as easy as Windows for the most part.
 

mtrupi

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Here's where I usually get a little disappointed with Linux. I occasionally get my hands on very much older computers and Windows is not a great option for them any longer so I try to put Linux on them. Seems like there is always some hardware that just doesn't work quite right or not at all. Otherwise I would be real happy with Linux. It may have been mentioned already, but Windows Subsystem Linux (WSL) has been fun to play with as well.
 

Deadjasper

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Here's where I usually get a little disappointed with Linux. I occasionally get my hands on very much older computers and Windows is not a great option for them any longer so I try to put Linux on them. Seems like there is always some hardware that just doesn't work quite right or not at all. Otherwise I would be real happy with Linux. It may have been mentioned already, but Windows Subsystem Linux (WSL) has been fun to play with as well.

I've found this to be especially true when it comes to scanners. Never have been able to get one to work with Linux and I've tried several. All have done exactly the same. Scanned document is a totally black page. seems like this would be easy to fix but apparently nobody gives a damn. This also applies to many other issues with Linux. But still, over all, I prefer Linux and use it as my daily driver. Windows has turned into a putrid cesspool of filth.
 

LukeTbk

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Yes. My point was simply the windows method is far simpler.
I was going to say often it is simpler on Linux, but after thinking/comparing a bit I am not sure, on Linux it is often just

$ sudo apt install vlc -y

But on windows it is has easy:
winget install VideoLan.VLC

And for some like just installing Visual Code, still really easy if you google it:
https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/setup/linux

But on windows it is simply winget install Microsoft.VisualStudioCode

It really depend if the windows application is on the winget/chocolate list or not, often it is more complicated and involve looking online for some download link, downloading, then running the executable, opening up the UAC, answering install wizard question with next, next steps, versus a single line of command line and pressing enter.

But windows made a lot of progress in recent years in that regard and if something is on winget, hard to imagine anything simpler.
 

travm

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I'm a Windows guy but that simply isn't true anymore. Sure if you want some obscure software or need to install some proprietary Windows only programs. But its as easy as Windows for the most part.
I use both regularly. This is simply not true
 

Bowman15

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I use both regularly. This is simply not true

So do I....list the common Linux programs that Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows. And what Linux distros you are using.
 

auntjemima

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So do I....list the common Linux programs that Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows. And what Linux distro/distros you are using.
I would say, by console, both are equally annoying.

I still think googling an exe in about 8 seconds and installing it is faster than me finding the command for a program I want from the repo (and you NEED to know the exact name the creator chose for it). Even more annoying if I have to add a repo.

Either way, whatever.
 
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LukeTbk

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I still think googling an exe in about 8 seconds and installing it is faster than me finding the command for a program I want from the repo (and you NEED to know the exact name the creator chose for it). Even more annoying if I have to add a repo.
Not on windows, winget search VisualStudio, VLC, any app you want will list you the list of app that contain those for the exact name to use for the specific version you want.

Do you really need to find the command, it is not alway simply winget install nameOfTheApp ? I doubt that it can possibly be slower than googling, finding the link, downloading, running the installer, enabling the UAC, manually clicking next, next, next, versus simply typing winget install VideoLAN.VLC enter and that absolutely it

apt-cache search on Ubuntu will do the same
 

Bowman15

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I would say, by console, both are equally annoying.

I still think googling an exe in about 8 seconds and installing it is faster than me finding the command for a program I want from the repo (and you NEED to know the exact name the creator chose for it). Even more annoying if I have to add a repo.

Either way, whatever.

I see what you mean by console installations. I was talking about the average joe who opens the software package manager, picks a program they want and clicks on the install button...again, I'm talking about common Linux apps like Libre Office, Steam, VLC, Wine, Blender, Brave, Google Earth, Spotify, etc.
 

auntjemima

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I see what you mean by console installations. I was talking about the average joe who opens the software package manager, picks a program they want and clicks on the install button...again, I'm talking about common Linux apps like Libre Office, Steam, VLC, Wine, Blender, Brave, Google Earth, Spotify, etc.
Ok, so, just so I'm clear, you think opening the software centre on Linux and searching for an app and then installing said app is "orders of magnitude" harder than in windows?

I just want to make sure I'm clear in my understanding. If my understanding is correct, I really don't know what to say. Truly.
 

Bowman15

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Ok, so, just so I'm clear, you think opening the software centre on Linux and searching for an app and then installing said app is "orders of magnitude" harder than in windows?

I just want to make sure I'm clear in my understanding. If my understanding is correct, I really don't know what to say. Truly.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant that for the most part its as easy as Windows now for common Linux apps. If someone is hung up on a couple extra clicks for either OS then that's just picking nits at that point. Using cli is a whole other argument I don't care to get into. 😁
 

Mazzspeed

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Yes. My point was simply the windows method is far simpler. There isn't 100 dependencies to install with every program, and the software just installs and works (mostly). I don't like the Linux methods of installing software. Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows.
Some programs in Linux come with install scripts that work very well (mplabx) but most don't.
Windows installs multiple dependencies per software package, not Linux. The only time Linux installs multiple dependencies per software package is when using Flatpak/Snap. As stated, it's not uncommon to see multiple versions of .NET installed under Windows machines.

Double clicking a .deb via the GUI and installing software no different to Windows, or adding a PPA and entering 'sudo apt install [software package name] is far from difficult. If you're using installer scripts, you're usually compiling from source, which is very rare these days.
 

Mazzspeed

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I see what you mean by console installations. I was talking about the average joe who opens the software package manager, picks a program they want and clicks on the install button...again, I'm talking about common Linux apps like Libre Office, Steam, VLC, Wine, Blender, Brave, Google Earth, Spotify, etc.
Libre Office, Steam and Google Earth are packaged as .deb installers and can therefore be installed via the GUI no different to Windows. Everything else is downloadable via the Snap store either via the GUI or by copy/pasting a single command into terminal. Blender is actually downloadable via Steam.

Bear in mind, a package manager is not a software 'store'.
 

DogsofJune

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So do I....list the common Linux programs that Installing software is orders of magnitude more difficult than in Windows. And what Linux distros you are using.
Superposition with Manjaro, PopOS, Ubuntu...... :) That is one thing off the top of my head
 

auntjemima

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Windows installs multiple dependencies per software package, not Linux. The only time Linux installs multiple dependencies per software package is when using Flatpak/Snap. As stated, it's not uncommon to see multiple versions of .NET installed under Windows machines.

Double clicking a .deb via the GUI and installing software no different to Windows, or adding a PPA and entering 'sudo apt install [software package name] is far from difficult. If you're using installer scripts, you're usually compiling from source, which is very rare these days.
Those .NET things always make me laugh. Usually have 5+ versions installed at any one time lol
 

auntjemima

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I've actually encountered dependency issues under Windows regarding .NET versions.
Hell yes you have. Sometimes I'll install a game from 10 years ago and it will have issues and the readme will want me to install some goddamn 3.5 Net framework bullshit from the cd. Love it.
 

auntjemima

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This seems like an ever revolving thread, so I'll pose another question.

What is with anti-cheating, or lack thereof, in Linux? The two things my kids want to play, fortnite and Roblox, both do not work on Linux and the story out there is both use software for cheating that doesn't work with Linux.

If these two games worked on Linux, I would never use Windows again. Mazzspeed what say you?
 
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Mazzspeed

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This seems like an ever revolving thread, so I'll pose another question.

What is with anti-cheating, or lack thereof, in Linux? The two things my kids want to play, fortnite and Roblox, both do not work on Linux and the story out there is both use software for cheating that doesn't work with Linux.

If these two games worked on Linux, I would never use Windows again. Mazzspeed what say you?
Roblox runs on Linux using Wine, it has for quite some time now as far as I'm aware. As for Fortnite, I'd say your chances are slim to none. EAC is now supported under Linux, but Epic Games are doing their best to be difficult, while Valve do their best to create an ecosystem that works for everyone.

EAC is really the only roadblock in this regard, and rather than make it Wine compatible, Epic Games decided to make two versions of the solution - As a result, progress has been hampered. Really no different to the stunt Microsoft pulled regarding the OOXML standard being split into 'transitional' and 'strict' implementations.
 

Bowman15

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Libre Office, Steam and Google Earth are packaged as .deb installers and can therefore be installed via the GUI no different to Windows. Everything else is downloadable via the Snap store either via the GUI or by copy/pasting a single command into terminal. Blender is actually downloadable via Steam.

Bear in mind, a package manager is not a software 'store'.

That is a weird flex? Nobody cares about the backend repositories it uses when the front end software manager GUI can download/package the individual software and dependencies into a one click solution. At least the average joe doesn't. Don't over think it.
 

Mazzspeed

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That is a weird flex? Nobody cares about the backend repositories it uses when the front end software manager GUI can download/package the individual software and dependencies into a one click solution. At least the average joe doesn't. Don't over think it.
I have no idea just what you're trying to say.

The software in the official repo's can be out of date as they're aimed at stable LTS releases. Therefore, users have the option of just downloading the .deb directly from the developer and installing via the GUI, no different to Windows. As stated, if that's not an option developers usually provide a link to the Snap Store or a Flatpak download for simple installation.

Both .deb installers as well as Snap's and Flatpak's are all handled by package managers, so software and dependencies are all handled in a one click solution. No one's over thinking anything, you simply seem confused.
 

Bowman15

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I have no idea just what you're trying to say.

The software in the official repo's can be out of date as they're aimed at stable LTS releases. Therefore, users have the option of just downloading the .deb directly from the manufacturer and installing via the GUI, no different to Windows. As stated, if that's not an option developers usually provide a link to the Snap Store or a Flatpak download for simple installation.

Both .deb installers as well as Snap's and Flatpak's are all handled by package managers, so software and dependencies are all handled in a one click solution. No one's over thinking anything, you simply seem confused.

No one was arguing or debating that, at least I wasn't....you just expanded on what I was saying. Installing Linux software for the most part now is just as easy as Windows. Package managers make it even easier than having to go to each individual website to get common software. Regardless if the repositories have to have the latest release or not. Again, don't over think my point.
 

Mazzspeed

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No one was arguing or debating that, at least I wasn't....you just expanded on what I was saying. Installing Linux software for the most part now is just as easy as Windows. Package managers make it even easier than having to go to each individual website to get common software. Regardless if the repositories have to have the latest release or not. Again, don't over think my point.
Expanding on a point is not over thinking anything. Like Windows, modern Linux has a number of versatile implementations allowing people to install/remove software quickly and easily - There's nothing wrong with stating this. A great example of the official repositories not always being ideal was highlighted regarding the issue Linus of LTT faced when installing Steam from the official Ubuntu repo's under PopOS, had Linus just downloaded the .deb of Steam directly from Valve he would have encountered none of the issues he faced.

On another note, as a result of comments made by another member in this thread, I now have ye old text based game 'Adventure' installed on my Pi400:

qTK4rNK.png
 

travm

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Double clicking a .deb via the GUI and installing software no different to Windows, or adding a PPA and entering 'sudo apt install [software package name] is far from difficult. If you're using installer scripts, you're usually compiling from source, which is very rare these days.
^ This is exactly what I'm talking about. double clicking a .deb, half the time doesnt freaking work, and setting up a PPA to install your damn software is not simply going to website A, downloading .exe, EXECUTE, profit.
 

blackmomba

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Download exe, execute, forget about it for the next 6 months, then some Chinese hacker breaks into your machine and steals all your info because you forgot to update that remote desktop software you installed and used once

Package managers help with updates too
 

Mazzspeed

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^ This is exactly what I'm talking about. double clicking a .deb, half the time doesnt freaking work, and setting up a PPA to install your damn software is not simply going to website A, downloading .exe, EXECUTE, profit.
I've never had a problem installing a .deb via the GUI, and there's nothing hard about adding a PPA.

Having said that, I don't use vanilla Ubuntu, that's possibly about the only time you'll have a problem installing a .deb via the GUI due to the fact Canonical are pushing Snaps.

Download exe, execute, forget about it for the next 6 months, then some Chinese hacker breaks into your machine and steals all your info because you forgot to update that remote desktop software you installed and used once

Package managers help with updates too
This 100%.
 

auntjemima

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Roblox runs on Linux using Wine, it has for quite some time now as far as I'm aware. As for Fortnite, I'd say your chances are slim to none. EAC is now supported under Linux, but Epic Games are doing their best to be difficult, while Valve do their best to create an ecosystem that works for everyone.

EAC is really the only roadblock in this regard, and rather than make it Wine compatible, Epic Games decided to make two versions of the solution - As a result, progress has been hampered. Really no different to the stunt Microsoft pulled regarding the OOXML standard being split into 'transitional' and 'strict' implementations.
Roblox studio will work, but Roblox itself does not, unfortunately. Hasn't for years and there is no plan to bring it to Linux. Both of these always seem to be the anti cheat stuff. Just thought maybe they couldn't lock it down on Linux or something.
 

travm

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Download exe, execute, forget about it for the next 6 months, then some Chinese hacker breaks into your machine and steals all your info because you forgot to update that remote desktop software you installed and used once

Package managers help with updates too
This is insane, I don't install sketchy ass software. I also don't trust internet connected machines.
You're trying to tell me that Linux protects idiots from bad software, but idiots can't even figure out how to get the live cd to work so none use it. This is the lamest reason ever. No one who needs this "protection" you're talking about uses this software.
 

blackmomba

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This is insane, I don't install sketchy ass software. I also don't trust internet connected machines.
You're trying to tell me that Linux protects idiots from bad software, but idiots can't even figure out how to get the live cd to work so none use it. This is the lamest reason ever. No one who needs this "protection" you're talking about uses this software.
I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't say anything about bad software.

It actually happened to a friend, he installed some flavour of the week RDP program and forgot about it. Months later he saw Bitcoin transactions he didn't recognize, logins to his online banking he didn't do himself... He traced it back to the aforementioned software that had vulnerabilities disclosed since he installed it. He forgot he had the software and never updated it. Had he installed that software through a package manager, he probably wouldve received an update for it. (Yes received, he wouldn't have to go out online to get the update like a peasant)

You know, the 'management' part of 'package management'
 

LukeTbk

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I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't say anything about bad software.

It actually happened to a friend, he installed some flavour of the week RDP program and forgot about it
Not sure I get the nuance between bad software and a flavor of the week RDP program with vulnerabilities.

I am not sure I understand the resistance over the obvious benefit package manager offer, a nice list of all your application with their current version and the latest available version and an easy to use winget upgrade --all....

What is not too love, there is obvious reason Microsoft is going full on in that direction.
 

travm

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I don't understand what you're saying. I didn't say anything about bad software.

It actually happened to a friend, he installed some flavour of the week RDP program and forgot about it. Months later he saw Bitcoin transactions he didn't recognize, logins to his online banking he didn't do himself... He traced it back to the aforementioned software that had vulnerabilities disclosed since he installed it. He forgot he had the software and never updated it. Had he installed that software through a package manager, he probably wouldve received an update for it. (Yes received, he wouldn't have to go out online to get the update like a peasant)

You know, the 'management' part of 'package management'

My systems all require me to tell it to update. Nothing is automagic. Its splitting hairs, here. Windows is easier to install random software. I like that. Period.
 
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