And they still wonder why linux isn't more popular.

Algrim

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Use the OS that works best for you. Clearly that's not Linux for some of the posters here. I'm a Linux registered user in the low 100,000 count so I've had skin in the game for decades but that doesn't mean I think it's perfect; it's not. I still use Free/OpenBSD, macOS, Minix, and Windows primarily. A computer is a tool and what runs on it determines what kind of tool it should be.

macOS and Windows work the way they do because the desktop is part of the operating system and therefore has tight integration between all aspects of its tool set. The UNIX and UNIX-like operating systems are different. Think of how Windows used to run on top of DOS and this is more akin to how UNIX is designed. I see a lot of scorn in this thread for 'having to use the terminal to change things', but that is the OS. The pretty window dressing is just some attempt at hiding the CLI with a GUI and, depending on which window dressing you choose to use, may or may not do so successfully.

When there were attempts to make a consistent GUI for UNIX (can anyone remember CDE without having the shakes, I wonder) they never came close to replicating the success of either macOS or Windows level of integration. Maybe that's where the attempts need to stay, in history.
 

rizzod

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what's wrong with you guys? i don't want it to ever be the year of the linux desktop. i'm glad people think linux is complicated and they hate it. history has shown that any time something gets so popular that every one wants it, it ends up getting over-commercialized/monetized/whatever, and RUINED. linux on the desktop is in a great place, it's popular enough to get a lot of development, but not popular enough that it gets ruined.

great example is when the Gnome desktop that i loved went in a direction i didn't like, it was forked into the MATE desktop to retain the way old Gnome worked.

i like options, and i like linux.
 

GoldenTiger

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This thread had no point
Sure it did, poke the penguin.
No, point out the hypocrisy of penguin lovers ;). Which it's done marvelously.

Oh and also lies... Mazzspeed for example claimed clamav was a desktop anti-virus when it's made for servers. Several claim games work great on Linux which is only true for a select number of newer titles and often incurs a performance impact.

I brought up plenty in my post and was dismissed out of hand by Linux lovers who claim Linux desktop is amazing and everyone should use it. Truth is, the year of the Linux desktop has never been farther. And that's a good thing, we already have the gold standard: Windows.

Stay angry most people don't like Linux and no, it's not because they're not used to it. It's because desktop linux still stinks for power users and gamers, as well as normal users, after decades of dev. Oh and the community is truly antagonistic.
 
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Mazzspeed

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Convenience = the average user.

If you want Linux to stay second tier in the desktop space then by all means the majority will keep using Windows/ipads/MAC...

But that misses the point of the entire thread then...
I'm honestly quite happy with the current state of Linux. Truth be told, convenience is one of the reasons Windows is so open to infections and attacks. The future is some form of curated repository regarding software installation, the problem is Microsoft users seem outwardly against the idea - Personally I think most of that problem boils down to the fact that even Windows users don't trust Microsoft to implement such a system in a fair and equitable manner.

As stated earlier. As Linux users, we may be 2%, but we're the top 2%. ;)
 

Mazzspeed

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Oh and also lies... @Mazzspeed for example claimed clamav was a desktop anti-virus when it's made for servers. Several claim games work great on Linux which is only true for a select number of newer titles and often incurs a performance impact.
Another generalization with no citation. ClamAV is mainly used on servers as they're predominately the most attacked Linux platform, but Linux servers run the exact same LTS (or equivalent) OS as their desktop counterparts, the only real difference is servers have no need for a DE - Hence the reason the GUI regarding ClamAV is separately available for those lacking the ability or desire to run the software via terminal. Therefore, your whole premise that ClamAV is only intended for servers is 100% null and moot.

Especially when you consider that under Linux, AV isn't the necessity it is under Windows. As previously mentioned, ClamAV is widely used on mail servers and therefore predominately targets malicious email attachments intended for Windows systems, but to claim that ClamAV cannot detect Linux infections under the host OS file system is flat out incorrect. The only reason Windows infections are widely supported is because that's where most infections occur from a mail attachment perspective.

In fact, here's a screenshot of ClamAV available for download on my Pi400 via the desktop GUI based utility called Pi-Apps:

OeaGHYz.png


EDIT: Interestingly, there are two applications on the desktop of my Pi400 that are actually x86 Windows applications that run perfectly on the Pi400 using a combination of Box86 and Wine. Those applications are Altirra and BeebEm.

As for your comment regarding gaming, I provided a link highlighting many, many benchmarks of various Linux systems running Windows titles - And as stated, Linux is either slightly behind Windows, equal to Windows or in many cases actually faster than Windows. Especially where Vulkan is involved.

It's because desktop linux still stinks for power users

What an odd comment. Considering the fact that Linux is the dominant OS in the scientific community, and considering that Linux has carved a niche regarding the SFX industry - Once again this is just a remark with absolutely no merit whatsoever.

Especially when the general sentiment in this thread is that Linux is predominately aimed at power users. Once again, your posts add literally nothing of value to the discussion whatsoever. For someone that hates Linux so much, you certainly spend a lot of time sprinkling outright generalizations and half truths in the Linux sub forums.

Here's a screenshot of an emulated PDP-11 running BSD UNIX 2.11. The PDP-11 range of systems were widely used in academic circles, and BSD 2.11 uses commands as well as a file system that are almost identical to modern Linux. So from at least the mid 70's onwards, Unix, which has since progressed to Linux, has been at the forefront of academic (power) circles.

C3OV324.jpg
 
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Mazzspeed

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I have to make another post to cover certain edits made by a certain member, as claiming that:

No, point out the hypocrisy of penguin lovers ;). Which it's done marvelously.
While claiming not long after in the exact same post:

Oh and the community (Linux community) is truly antagonistic.
Literally wreaks of hypocrisy. I mean...My God.

And your comments weren't dismissed out of hand, they were maliciously analyzed and destroyed.
:rolleyes:
 

travm

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Usually I prefer to argue against Mazzspeed , I'm afraid these are solid points.

No one who uses Linux gives an actual fuck what any other non-Linux user thinks about their personal choice of OS.

I could point out the many obvious shortcomings in Linux, but

1. It's literally free. In every sense of the word (this is why DEs exist that don't allow desktop icons, and others exist that do)
2. It's insanely flexible, can be easily tweaked to run amazingly on old hardware.
3. Richmond doesn't jam crappy updates down your throat.
 

GoldenTiger

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Usually I prefer to argue against Mazzspeed , I'm afraid these are solid points.

No one who uses Linux gives an actual fuck what any other non-Linux user thinks about their personal choice of OS.

I could point out the many obvious shortcomings in Linux, but

1. It's literally free. In every sense of the word (this is why DEs exist that don't allow desktop icons, and others exist that do)
2. It's insanely flexible, can be easily tweaked to run amazingly on old hardware.
3. Richmond doesn't jam crappy updates down your throat.
They don't? You Linux desktop people sure do cry a lot wishing more people liked Linux when someone says they don't! Bwahahahahaha.

1. Not free, requires retraining end users and lots of troubleshooting plus cli work. There's a reason the world moved on from DOS. Time is money.

2. Not flexible without dozens of hours researching how. All through poor documentation and conceited idiots telling you to rtfm, when the manual doesn't exist!

3. Bad for most users to not get automatic updates. They never do them otherwise.

Without anti-virus, how are you monitoring if you have one? Watching your network packets 24/7 for suspicious activity? Praying a bunch of teenagers patched the latest exploit? Just ignoring it and hoping for the best?

Add in it still has no support for many professional applications, games, and general standards as windows has. It's no surprise just 1 percent of people use it on the desktop.

As stated earlier. As Linux users, we may be 2%, but we're the top 2%. ;)
Not to mention the conceited snark of people like Mazzspeed ("the top people use it!") :ROFLMAO:. You are the top 2 percent in wasting time on your os instead of being productive, you mean.
 
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GoldenTiger

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I have to make another post to cover certain edits made by a certain member, as claiming that:


While claiming not long after in the exact same post:


Literally wreaks of hypocrisy. I mean...My God.

And your comments weren't dismissed out of hand, they were maliciously analyzed and destroyed.
:rolleyes:
You blathered on with essays not even addressing what I posted, rudely, and then declared you can be whatever you want because it's the Linux subforum. Rudeness in, gets rudeness back bub. Ever wonder why we don't suddenly change our minds about desktop Linux after you snippily post a college thesis about a tangent? Maybe you don't contribute as much as you think ;).
 

Mazzspeed

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Not interested dude. Just more wasted space with no actual contribution to the thread in any way whatsoever. Essentially, your posts are a magnitude of fail that are in your own words nothing more than an attempt to crap on Linux users.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't been rude to you at all, I've been direct and to the point. If you think that's somehow rude, that's your problem, not mine.
 
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travm

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They don't? You Linux desktop people sure do cry a lot wishing more people liked Linux when someone says they don't! Bwahahahahaha.
I don't go into the windows sub forum and bash windows users. Frankly I have uses for both OSes, and the ability to respect other peoples choices.
1. Not free, requires retraining end users and lots of troubleshooting plus cli work. There's a reason the world moved on from DOS. Time is money.
You're talking about corporate drones only. Frankly any new software requires retaining. It is a reason that Linux struggles to penetrate some markets.

It's still free. New windows software requires training as well. Being free all the little things you're making a huge deal of aren't going to get "fixed", because generally bigger fish to fry.
2. Not flexible without dozens of hours researching how. All through poor documentation and conceited idiots telling you to rtfm, when the manual doesn't exist!
I won't defend the rtfm idiots, it's free software, often written by people who don't English very well. Temper expectations, it's free.
The last appliance I got for free didn't have a manual either.
3. Bad for most users to not get automatic updates. They never do them otherwise.
Most users use Windows. What is the relevance of this statement? I prefer no forced updates. Wish my windows machines could be updated manually as desired instead of update now bitch. Currently I keep my updates paused 99% of the time.
Without anti-virus, how are you monitoring if you have one? Watching your network packets 24/7 for suspicious activity? Praying a bunch of teenagers patched the latest exploit? Just ignoring it and hoping for the best?
This has been addressed. I don't run anything more than windows defender on Windows. You can run AV software if you wish... I keep tabs on what I've installed and make sure my browser is up to date. Linux is more secure by default. Part of why all the internet runs on it.
Add in it still has no support for many professional applications, games, and general standards as windows has. It's no surprise just 1 percent of people use it on the desktop.
This is the only statement in this long winded bitch fest that makes sense.
If all my software properly supported Linux I would likely not use Windows.

You are right, for most people it's not really for them. But the whole premise of this thread is to bash Linux and Linux users cause Linux sucks and Windows is awesome.

In the Linux sub forum.
 

Mazzspeed

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The last appliance I got for free didn't have a manual either.
My LG OLED TV didn't come with a manual and it cost me a fortune.

As far as Linux is concerned, the rapid increase in the popularity of Raspberry Pi devices is resulting in a vast number of people learning Linux that otherwise wouldn't have considered so much as touching the OS before. Sure, you can hack Windows onto a Pi, but you'll get so annoyed at the resulting speed you'll probably toss it out the window.

Furthermore, everything worth a damn on the Pi is intended to be run under Linux.

If anyone wants to experiment with Linux, grab a Pi400. It (was) cheap, and it's everything you need to get started on bare metal as opposed to a VM. As highlighted in my posts, I've even got x86 software running perfectly on my Pi400.
 
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Deadjasper

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I recently tried Manjaro. Needed to install a program and couldn't get it to work. The only help I got from the Internet was gibberish and stupid rhetoric. And as usual, a shit ton load of out of date useless information. After wasting a day I said fuck it and Dumped it like the yesterday's garbage it is. Without a good package manager a Linux distro is pissing in the wind.

I doubt I'll ever waste time on Manjaro again.
 

Vermillion

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I recently tried Manjaro. Needed to install a program and couldn't get it to work. The only help I got from the Internet was gibberish and stupid rhetoric. And as usual, a shit ton load of out of date useless information. After wasting a day I said fuck it and Dumped it like the yesterday's garbage it is. Without a good package manager a Linux distro is pissing in the wind.

I doubt I'll ever waste time on Manjaro again.
What were you trying to install? Manjaro should be pacman since it's based on Arch. Pacman is fucking awesome.
 

travm

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What were you trying to install? Manjaro should be pacman since it's based on Arch. Pacman is fucking awesome.
Growing up on apt, I wasn't a fan of pacman. I still definately prefer the windows model of self contained installers.
 

LukeTbk

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Growing up on apt, I wasn't a fan of pacman. I still definately prefer the windows model of self contained installers.
Not sure for the making installer side of things how it end up, but has an user the apt style seem a good step above superior to me.

If something is available on winget or vcpkg on windows, that where I tend to get my stuff now, no need to look on website for download link, to watch out for checkbox to uncheck during the installation process for moneytizable additional apps/browser plugins going on. You can script them, centralized list of things install and update command and so on. I am curious about the self-contained installers preference, nice gui wizard for install option versus command line option ?

If anyone wants to experiment with Linux, grab a Pi400. It (was) cheap, and it's everything you need to get started on bare metal as opposed to a VM. As highlighted in my posts, I've even got x86 software running perfectly on my Pi400.
With the current price (or even without) and with how good VMs are now, combined with the fact that their windows if it is a 10 or 11 offer to install a Ubuntu or Debian running in a VM, I would simply just go with the VM
 

travm

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God why? Package managers with good quality repos are so much better than Windows grab from anywhere and install bullshit.
I guess I've never seen a package manager with good quality repos, it's always been a compromise at some point.

Its a support issue with Linux I think. Windows let's amateurs code too. Sometimes that's not a bad thing.
 

Mazzspeed

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God why? Package managers with good quality repos are so much better than Windows grab from anywhere and install bullshit.
This 100%. Once you get used to package managers and trusted repo's, the idea of installing software from anywhere found using a Google search seems ass backwards - Essentially the internet is just one huge insecure software repository, you really have no idea what you're introducing to your OS, with UAC wide open due to the fact you clicked 'Yes' to the UAC requester.

With the current price (or even without) and with how good VMs are now, combined with the fact that their windows if it is a 10 or 11 offer to install a Ubuntu or Debian running in a VM, I would simply just go with the VM
You could go a VM, but then you wouldn't learn just how useful and versatile a Raspberry Pi can be while running Linux on bare metal. I have Pi's running everything from TV server's using TVheadend to DNS sinks using PiHole, I even use a Pi as a NAS and have another Pi as a retro gaming device using Retro Pi.

As seen in the screenshot above, I even have a Pi that thinks it's a DEC PDP11 running BSD UNIX 2.11.
 

Vermillion

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I guess I've never seen a package manager with good quality repos, it's always been a compromise at some point.

Its a support issue with Linux I think. Windows let's amateurs code too. Sometimes that's not a bad thing.
I find that hard to believe.
Even Arch Linux and it's AUR hasn't seen any malware since 2018. There's been no reports of malware in Arch Linux repos ever that I can find a reference to. Ubuntu is the same way.
 

blackmomba

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You could go a VM, but then you wouldn't learn just how useful and versatile a Raspberry Pi can be while running Linux on bare metal. I have Pi's running everything from TV server's using TVheadend to DNS sinks using PiHole, I even use a Pi as a NAS and have another Pi as a retro gaming device using Retro Pi.

As seen in the screenshot above, I even have a Pi that thinks it's a DEC PDP11 running BSD UNIX 2.11.

I strapped a 4tb external Seagate drive to a rpi3b running minio for backups. I don't even remember where it is physically
 

Meeho

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The only thing preventing me from ditching Windows completely is the lack of madVR on Linux.
 

auntjemima

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Educate me. Is there any difference between pacman and apt, realistically, or is it just Debian vs arch?
 

Vermillion

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Educate me. Is there any difference between pacman and apt, realistically, or is it just Debian vs arch?
Package Managers can do different things different ways but in the end they all install the software from the repos.

Some people consider APT to be a more feature rich manager than Pacman. At the same time Pacman is far faster than APT is. In the end it really doesn't matter.
 

auntjemima

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Package Managers can do different things different ways but in the end they all install the software from the repos.

Some people consider APT to be a more feature rich manager than Pacman. At the same time Pacman is far faster than APT is. In the end it really doesn't matter.
Feature rich? How so?

All I do is update, upgrade and install. Am I missing something extra exciting?
 

Vermillion

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Feature rich? How so?

All I do is update, upgrade and install. Am I missing something extra exciting?
Basically it is really nitty gritty fine grained control type stuff in case something breaks. But those are also people doing crazy things, knowing it could break shit. Most users will never need to even think about because simply running sudo apt upgrade or sudo pacman -Syu (or paru in my case) just works.
 

LukeTbk

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You could go a VM, but then you wouldn't learn just how useful and versatile a Raspberry Pi can be while running Linux on bare metal. I have Pi's running everything from TV server's using TVheadend to DNS sinks using PiHole, I even use a Pi as a NAS and have another Pi as a retro gaming device using Retro Pi.
Well yes if the goal is to get and have a Raspberry Pi you would certainly get a Rasberry Pi, I meant the: If anyone wants to experiment with Linux

Anyone that got frustated with CMAKE or other solutions to make a complicated multiple dependency C++ project compile on Windows, try Linux on a VM
 

ElementDave

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Here's a screenshot of an emulated PDP-11 running BSD UNIX 2.11. The PDP-11 range of systems were widely used in academic circles, and BSD 2.11 uses commands as well as a file system that are almost identical to modern Linux. So from at least the mid 70's onwards, Unix, which has since progressed to Linux, has been at the forefront of academic (power) circles.

View attachment 494312
I couldn't help but notice "adventure" in your screenshot. Some of you may be interested to know that Eric S. Raymond (ESR) obtained permission from the original author to release Adventure 2.5 (1995) under 2-clause BSD, and much effort has gone into refactoring the code to modern C from the original machine-translation of FORTRAN to C. The details are documented in several files scattered in the root directory of the repository.

In the words of ESR: "Adventure is the fons et origo of all later dungeon-crawling computer games, the granddaddy of interactive fiction, and one of the hallowed artifacts of hacker folklore."

Colossal Cave Adventure, the 1995 430-point version. (note: site is still plain HTTP as of this writing)
https://gitlab.com/esr/open-adventure

The game has been packaged for Debian as "open-adventure".
Code:
apt[-get] install open-adventure
 

Mazzspeed

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Well yes if the goal is to get and have a Raspberry Pi you would certainly get a Rasberry Pi, I meant the: If anyone wants to experiment with Linux
If I had have run Linux in a VM, I'd probably still be using Windows to this day, as there's no chance I would have used the OS as much as I found myself using it installed on a separate machine as opposed to a VM.

Essentially, once the method of software installation clicked and I'd become somewhat used to installing software via apt under terminal, I found myself using the Linux box more than the Windows box, until one day I decided to get rid of the Windows box completely and don't miss it at all. Raspberry Pi's are still quite affordable, I saw a number of Pi400's the other day for sale in an actual bricks and mortar store and the price was almost unchanged from pre chip shortage prices.
 

auntjemima

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If I had have run Linux in a VM, I'd probably still be using Windows to this day, as there's no chance I would have used the OS as much as I found myself using it installed on a separate machine as opposed to a VM.

Essentially, once the method of software installation clicked and I'd become somewhat used to installing software via apt under terminal, I found myself using the Linux box more than the Windows box, until one day I decided to get rid of the Windows box completely and don't miss it at all. Raspberry Pi's are still quite affordable, I saw a number of Pi400's the other day for sale in an actual bricks and mortar store and the price was almost unchanged from pre chip shortage prices.
I got a pi400 at Christmas. I had big plans, as my secret Santa here bought me a 7" touch screen. I was going to make a double din deck, but I ended up going a different direction so now it sits in a box.

Just not sure what to do with the thing lol
 

Mazzspeed

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Anyone that got frustated with CMAKE or other solutions to make a complicated multiple dependency C++ project compile on Windows, try Linux on a VM
It's really not that hard, I build software on the Pi so software will run under ARM all the time. Having said that, under x64 the need to compile software is extremely rare.

Code:
- sudo apt install build-essential
- on GitHub click 'code' and copy the HTTPS download location
- sudo git clone [download location]
- extract the tarball via GUI if you wish
- navigate to the extracted folder using the GUI and 'open terminal here', or open terminal and navigate to folder using the 'cd' command.
- sudo apt ./configure
- the configure command will check for dependacies needed, if any are needed they are usually installed using sudo apt install [dependecy name]-dev
- once all dependicies have been installed and rechecked by running ./configure again, progress to next step
- sudo make
- this will compile the software and may take some time. You will usually see lines of text scrolling up the screen
- once compiled, enter 'sudo make install' to install the software on your system
- do not delete the program directory. If you want to uninstall at a later date use 'sudo make uninstall'
 
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Mazzspeed

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I got a pi400 at Christmas. I had big plans, as my secret Santa here bought me a 7" touch screen. I was going to make a double din deck, but I ended up going a different direction so now it sits in a box.

Just not sure what to do with the thing lol
The best advice I can give is to install TwisterOS and use it as another desktop, TwisterOS craps all over Raspberry Pi OS and is a far more fully featured OS.

I use my Pi400 every day to either browse the web, chat via IRC, connect to BBS's using SyncTERM, check email, download NZB's, play games via RetroPi...It really is a capable little machine and there's plenty of software available for it now.

UjU1kdN.jpg
 

travm

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I find that hard to believe.
Even Arch Linux and it's AUR hasn't seen any malware since 2018. There's been no reports of malware in Arch Linux repos ever that I can find a reference to. Ubuntu is the same way.
I didn't say anything about malware
 

auntjemima

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The best advice I can give is to install TwisterOS and use it as another desktop, TwisterOS craps all over Raspberry Pi OS and is a far more fully featured OS.

I use my Pi400 every day to either browse the web, chat via IRC, connect to BBS's using SyncTERM, check email, download NZB's, play games via RetroPi...It really is a capable little machine and there's plenty of software available for it now.

View attachment 497641
I should really do a RetroPi thing and rub ROMs. Unfortunately I would need many different types of controllers for each console and it would really make the livingroom messy, I think.
 

Mazzspeed

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I should really do a RetroPi thing and rub ROMs. Unfortunately I would need many different types of controllers for each console and it would really make the livingroom messy, I think.
I've got a gated joystick for Mame type games, for everything else I just use a Logitech D-Pad type controller.
 

LukeTbk

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It's really not that hard, I build software on the Pi so software will run under ARM all the time. Having said that, under x64 the need to compile software is extremely rare.
I am not sure what you mean by hard (what would be), I purely talked about the money and the time needed to receive by mail, if someone want to try Linux a VM do seem perfectly fine, has for rare ? except everytime you make code that need to be compiled for the programs you make....
 

Mazzspeed

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I am not sure what you mean by hard (what would be), I purely talked about the money and the time needed to receive by mail, if someone want to try Linux a VM do seem perfectly fine, has for rare ? except everytime you make code that need to be compiled for the programs you make....
Well as stated I can just run up the street and buy a Pi400 at a cost that's not much higher than pre chip shortage prices and not all software needs to be compiled, most software is all now available in the official repo's and installed simply and easily using apt.

I run a number of uncommon software packages like serial terminal software and certain IRC clients that are unlikely to ever be ported to the official repo's due to the fact that few still use such programs. I also run a number of Windows x86 software packages using Box86 and Wine, and they run fine.

But at the end of the day, if you want to run a VM, run a VM - I really don't care. I'm simply stating that from my perspective I learned a lot more running Linux bare metal, and the numerous RPi devices out there now make such a proposition simple and affordable. Furthermore, due to the popularity of the RPi as a platform, more people are now learning Linux, people that had no reason to do so in the past.
 
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