And they still wonder why linux isn't more popular.

blackmomba

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My systems all require me to tell it to update. Nothing is automagic. Its splitting hairs, here. Windows is easier to install random software. I like that. Period.

All software can have bugs or vulnerabilities, good and bad. This is basic knowledge. If you prefer to babysit loose binaries and system upgrades, that's good for you. I have more important things to do so I run one magic command that upgrades the majority of packages I have on my system and move on with my life.

yes you did.
Well point out where I did then bucko

Honestly dude you can do things the way you want obviously but when you step out and voice an opinion on how to do something which is obviously archaic and inefficient, some people are going to laugh
 

travm

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Download exe, execute, forget about it for the next 6 months, then some Chinese hacker breaks into your machine and steals all your info because you forgot to update that remote desktop software you installed and used once

Package managers help with updates too
Well point out where I did then bucko

See above. If software that chinese hackers can just waltz into your system and start selling your bitcoin isnt bad software.... Either way, laugh all you want.
 

Mazzspeed

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My systems all require me to tell it to update. Nothing is automagic. Its splitting hairs, here. Windows is easier to install random software. I like that. Period.
And this is a weakness of Windows from a security perspective, as evidenced by the fact that Android is the most popular OS globally and suffers a miniscule amount of infection in comparison to Windows due mostly to the fact that software is downloaded from a central curated repository.
 

Mazzspeed

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See above. If software that chinese hackers can just waltz into your system and start selling your bitcoin isnt bad software.... Either way, laugh all you want.
The last time it happened, I believe it was Norton AV products that were using client machines to mine bitcoin.
 

travm

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And this is a weakness of Windows from a security perspective, as evidenced by the fact that Android is the most popular OS globally and suffers a miniscule amount of infection in comparison to Windows due mostly to the fact that software is downloaded from a central curated repository.
I wasnt talking about windows.
 

travm

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Could have fooled me:
learn to read AND comprehend. There is a difference. taking quotes out of context is misleading. You quoted a specific post, i responded to that. That post is not this post you have quoted. do try to keep up.
 

Mazzspeed

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learn to read AND comprehend. There is a difference. taking quotes out of context is misleading. You quoted a specific post, i responded to that. That post is not this post you have quoted. do try to keep up.
The context is pretty clear. If you implied something else I'd love to know just what it was you implied, as I'm not seeing it:

My systems all require me to tell it to update. Nothing is automagic. Its splitting hairs, here. Windows is easier to install random software. I like that. Period.
 

travm

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The context is pretty clear. If you implied something else I'd love to know just what it was you implied, as I'm not seeing it:
Fair misunderstanding I wasn't very clear there. "My Linux systems all require me to tell it to update". That is what I was saying in that post. I'm sorry you misread.
 

blackmomba

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See above. If software that chinese hackers can just waltz into your system and start selling your bitcoin isnt bad software.... Either way, laugh all you want.
By that standard, windows must be absolute shit

Office, a very useful piece of software for some, has been a target for malware for like 20 years.

Quite plainly, the point I was trying to make was about upgrading your software and how package managers make that simple.

You're talking about choosing when to upgrade. I'm talking about when you do upgrade, not having to inventory everything you have by hand and upgrading all that stuff, again, by hand, wether it be through a new installer or by opening each piece of software individually to trigger an update... Do I need to uninstall, eh I dunno... These are things I don't need to care about.
 

LukeTbk

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And this is a weakness of Windows from a security perspective, as evidenced by the fact that Android is the most popular OS globally and suffers a miniscule amount of infection in comparison to Windows due mostly to the fact that software is downloaded from a central curated repository.
Is there a big difference between Windows package manager than other package manager and is windows package manager repository less curated ?

Seem more a talk about using a package manager or not than an OS talk.
 
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Mazzspeed

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Is there a big difference between Windows package manager than other package manager and is windows package manager repository less curated ?

Seem more a talk about using a package manager or not than an OS talk.
Winget is a great idea, the problem is: How many people actively use it? How many people even know it exists and how populated are the repositories? If people start installing software under Windows via a shell interface, can they stop bitching about using terminal under Linux to install software considering Microsoft themselves seem to think it's an acceptable idea?

I stated earlier that Windows needs a central curated repository, so the concept of winget is a great idea. The problem is Windows users don't like any form of shell/CMD/Terminal interface. Considering the installation/removal of software is a big part of any OS, I find the current line of discussion perfectly appropriate.
 

LukeTbk

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how populated are the repositories?
3040 package right now I think (very similar to Chocolatey 3132)

How many people actively use it?
On a message board like HardForum I imagine it is often a choice/preference if one was not using chocolatey or other package manager on their windows machine and for a while winget. You have an option to use those or not, some people do seem to prefer downloading installer (I am really not sure why, maybe they love putting apps in some folder hierarchy Tools, Graphics, MediaPlayer, etc... and to browse them in a directory wise like in the past), but you can certainly very simply install them via a package manager and simply winget Upgrade --all from time to time.

can they stop bitching about using terminal under Linux to install software considering Microsoft themselves seem to think it's an acceptable idea?
Maybe they will wait for a nice gui, do they mind the terminal to install software or that some software have more than a simple terminal line for them to install, because of some stricter dependency management ?
 

Mazzspeed

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On a message board like HardForum I imagine it is often a choice/preference if one was not using chocolatey or other package manager on their windows machine and for a while winget. You have an option to use those or not, some people do seem to prefer downloading installer (I am really not sure why, maybe they love putting apps in some folder hierarchy Tools, Graphics, MediaPlayer, etc... and to browse them in a directory wise like in the past), but you can certainly very simply install them via a package manager and simply winget Upgrade --all from time to time.
I have no problem with applications being installed in their correct hierarchy under Linux. Games are under 'Games', multimedia applications are under 'Multimedia', tools are under 'Tools', etc. Furthermore, software can be shifted around regarding categories after installation. However, the fact that the OS updating process as well as package upgrades are still separate, requiring one to manually force an upgrade via the 'upgrade' switch, is a little limiting regarding a package manager - Ideally you'd want software to upgrade along with OS updates at the discretion of the user.

I honestly believe almost all Windows users, even on the [H] Forums, wouldn't be using a third party package manager like Chocolatey, let alone winget - But I hope that moving forward the implementation continues to improve and we can do away with installing random .exe and .msi files downloaded directly off the internet via some random Google search.

Maybe they will wait for a nice gui, do they mind the terminal to install software or that some software have more than a simple terminal line for them to install, because of some stricter dependency management ?
Wouldn't that be the Windows store?
 

LukeTbk

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Wouldn't that be the Windows store?
Seem to be quite different, not sure what the Windows store exactly, something has common has steam does not seem to be on it (seem to be for "app"):
versus
https://winget.run/pkg/Valve/Steam

Ideally you'd want software to upgrade along with OS updates at the discretion of the user.
Specially with an user base that got used to it with their app package manager already offering that, their phone, steam with games, etc.... doing it, should not be that complicated to happen out of the box someday
Considering people are doing it for a while
https://github.com/Romanitho/Winget-autoupdate
 

travm

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By that standard, windows must be absolute shit
I'm sure most software is. That isnt limited to windows, or linux.
Office, a very useful piece of software for some, has been a target for malware for like 20 years.
Lesson of the day, don't download macro enabled templates from russia, china, or really, any where. Learn what the code does, and download code examples, then write your own shit.

Quite plainly, the point I was trying to make was about upgrading your software and how package managers make that simple.
This is a good point I suppose. For people who cant keep track of what's going on in their system.

You're talking about choosing when to upgrade. I'm talking about when you do upgrade, not having to inventory everything you have by hand and upgrading all that stuff, again, by hand, wether it be through a new installer or by opening each piece of software individually to trigger an update... Do I need to uninstall, eh I dunno... These are things I don't need to care about.
A solid limitation of this; I use KiCAD. I don't want to upgrade every single update, because i run it on multiple systems, with a shared repository for all the files. All systems must run the same version. My windows systems, no problem, I can easily install or remain on any version I want.
Linux, because of how fragmented the installation is (the program is made up of hundreds of other programs and blocks of files) its very difficult to upgrade all, except kicad. Or just plain doesn't work. Nevermind that half the time I need to use a PPA (except with Arch, those guys are on the ball, except I generally dislike AUR), and the PPA is constantly changing, its infuriating. The end result is I do NOT ever update my linux installs, except on major KiCAD releases when I update across the board. When I do I expect a 50/50 chance that the system will become broken due to updates and I'll have to research some obscure Kernel issue and resolve with a full reinstall.
 

travm

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1659886813725.png


While this is humorous. Its generally not a problem. As long as Microsoft continues to patch these things with windows update.

But I think this is the point trying to be made for package managers.
 

auntjemima

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View attachment 498571

While this is humorous. Its generally not a problem. As long as Microsoft continues to patch these things with windows update.

But I think this is the point trying to be made for package managers.
I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.
 

travm

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I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.
I agree, but just dont care. All my software works, the first time.

I ran into an issue years back using a 3yr old CAD program, where I wanted to write an add-in, and I could only download Visual Studio 2010, and the CAD software I was using only supported 2008. The newer version was a "it should work" but is not supported. It didnt work. Next release of the CAD software came with its own development environment built in, was amazing.
 

Bowman15

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I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.

Unfortunately that is not uncommon for Windows workstation installs. Especially for coders like travm. Be nice if they did it like .net versions.
 

GoldenTiger

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I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.
It's because each application is coded against a specific version of it. So, they bundle their own and if it isn't already present, you get a new one.
 

Mazzspeed

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I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.
They're installed along side each other as various applications use differing .NET dependencies.
 

auntjemima

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They're installed along side each other as various applications use differing .NET dependencies.
Totally get it. I guess I don't know WHY the newest version of .NET doesn't have ALL previous dependencies. You know, because it's the newest....
 

travm

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Totally get it. I guess I don't know WHY the newest version of .NET doesn't have ALL previous dependencies. You know, because it's the newest....
I can't speak to any Microsoft code, but generally old code is garbage(not really) and the new guys know better, so they trash the old code and make it more excellent. Until the greedy corporate people unhire them and bring in a bunch more shitty new workers for less money. Cycle repeats infinitum.
I wish there was a better system, but this is how capitalism works. And there isn't anything better.

Start your own company if it bothers you I guess.

I'm just hoping i can keep myself in good enough physical shape that I can work out my Twilight years doing semi skilled labor jobs and not be stuck in a call center or Walmart greeter. Maybe pick up a young wife ala old balls from big Daddy
 

Deadjasper

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I can't speak to any Microsoft code, but generally old code is garbage(not really) and the new guys know better, so they trash the old code and make it more excellent. Until the greedy corporate people unhire them and bring in a bunch more shitty new workers for less money. Cycle repeats infinitum.
I wish there was a better system, but this is how capitalism works. And there isn't anything better.

Start your own company if it bothers you I guess.

I'm just hoping i can keep myself in good enough physical shape that I can work out my Twilight years doing semi skilled labor jobs and not be stuck in a call center or Walmart greeter. Maybe pick up a young wife ala old balls from big Daddy

Gotta have a dream. (y)
 

auntjemima

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You guys make me want to use Linux. You know what I'm thinking? I wonder how these games are affected if I ran a Windows VM.
 

BlueLineSwinger

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You guys make me want to use Linux. You know what I'm thinking? I wonder how these games are affected if I ran a Windows VM.

It can be done, but it's never going to be as good as gaming on bare-metal Windows. You have to do things like pass-through the dGPU to the Windows guest for decent performance, which means that the host OS needs its own GPU (e.g., the iGPU on Intel CPUs and AMD APUs). More RAM is also often needed to support both OSes simultaneously. It's usually simpler and better to just dual-boot is such a situation.

If you want to experiment/learn with Linux, run it as a VM guest on top of Windows. VMware Player works great and is free for personal use. Hyper-V is an option as well if you have a Pro version of Windows. VirtualBox is crap.
 

auntjemima

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It can be done, but it's never going to be as good as gaming on bare-metal Windows. You have to do things like pass-through the dGPU to the Windows guest for decent performance, which means that the host OS needs its own GPU (e.g., the iGPU on Intel CPUs and AMD APUs). More RAM is also often needed to support both OSes simultaneously. It's usually simpler and better to just dual-boot is such a situation.

If you want to experiment/learn with Linux, run it as a VM guest on top of Windows. VMware Player works great and is free for personal use. Hyper-V is an option as well if you have a Pro version of Windows. VirtualBox is crap.
I've used Linux for years. Just can't on my main PC because of the kids.

That said, I have an i5, so igpu is a go. Plus 32gn of ram, so a go.

Either way, I would need to remove windows and then go through 10 or 15 hoops to figure it all out. Dualboot seems the easiest.
 

travm

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I've used Linux for years. Just can't on my main PC because of the kids.

That said, I have an i5, so igpu is a go. Plus 32gn of ram, so a go.

Either way, I would need to remove windows and then go through 10 or 15 hoops to figure it all out. Dualboot seems the easiest.
Negative. Dual boot is massive extra pain.
 

MrGuvernment

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I recently tried Manjaro. Needed to install a program and couldn't get it to work. The only help I got from the Internet was gibberish and stupid rhetoric. And as usual, a shit ton load of out of date useless information. After wasting a day I said fuck it and Dumped it like the yesterday's garbage it is. Without a good package manager a Linux distro is pissing in the wind.

I doubt I'll ever waste time on Manjaro again.
Been using Manjaro for 3 months now...

What was the app?
I everything I have needed is in the software manager it comes with...
 

MrGuvernment

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Negative. Dual boot is massive extra pain.
Wrong...

this isnt 20 years ago, and even then it was pretty easy..
Heck, Manjaro - i just tossed Windows 10 on a seconds drive, after having linux installed. Windows 10 installed, rebooted, and was doing F11 to choose boot options, but now, after an update from Manjaro, i got a boot screen asking me if i want to boot Manjaro, or windows boot manger..

Really does not get any easier than that any more.
 

auntjemima

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Wrong...

this isnt 20 years ago, and even then it was pretty easy..
Heck, Manjaro - i just tossed Windows 10 on a seconds drive, after having linux installed. Windows 10 installed, rebooted, and was doing F11 to choose boot options, but now, after an update from Manjaro, i got a boot screen asking me if i want to boot Manjaro, or windows boot manger..

Really does not get any easier than that any more.
I haven't tried it in a while, but when I used to use Mint, I had to install windows first and then Linux, otherwise windows would fuck around and mess with the Linux boot. Wasn't the end of the world to fix, but I needed to mess about in grub. Other way around? No issues.
 

Deadjasper

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Been using Manjaro for 3 months now...

What was the app?
I everything I have needed is in the software manager it comes with...

The app was Angry IP Scanner. In spite of all the help here I never did get it to work.

Dependencies should be invisible and handled behind the scenes. If the user has to get involved with them it's a deal breaker.
 

gamerk2

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I just don't get why the older versions aren't updated and replaced with the new ones. Why do they just keep installing all over top of each other?

So weird.
Not really. For better or worse, Microsoft decided a very long time ago to NEVER under any circumstances break API compatibility. So, if they find a function that doesn't work correctly, rather then patch it (changing how it works) they just make a new one. The MSVC library is the most notable since it's used by basically everything. I note in 99.99% of all cases you can uninstall old versions without issue.

While this does make the Windows API messy, it does have its benefits. The overwhelming majority of things work with very minor tinkering. Even old games from the early '95 days (I'll use Diablo as an example) work more or less without issue; you might need a few fixes like disabling the compositor, but pretty much everything still *works* because all the necessary API functions are still there. The one exception are 16-bit Windows programs as Microsoft made the decision to remove WOW16 from 64-bit Windows builds; not sure if that was a technical issue or not.
 

gamerk2

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Totally get it. I guess I don't know WHY the newest version of .NET doesn't have ALL previous dependencies. You know, because it's the newest....
Filesizes, and because .NET itself has shifted a ton since the 2.0 days (with a lot of functionality being depreciated and replaced post-2.0).
 
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