24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Enhanced Interrogator

[H]ard|Gawd
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Well, I don't understand the question. :LOL:

Haha, well, I'll try to elaborate.

In 8-bit color, red, for example, will have a value from 0-255 for any given pixel, right? So say we have a red value of 156 on a certain pixel, then you recalibrate your color in software, and it is now 142 being sent to your monitor, a shift of 14. So now what happens to a former value of, say, 12? It can't go to -2. So there ends up being compression somewhere, and that would lead to banding.

Am I on the right track here?
 

jyb

n00b
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Mar 24, 2014
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got the sunix card in the mail today....as derupter stated, you can go 1920x1200 @ 96hz...i was able to do also 2560x1600 @ 55hz but the flicker is far too noticeable at 55hz that it doesn't really have any good purpose or use unless you are watching video or movies....

I've noticed that even though I don't reach the max pixel clock of 330mhz, I seem to be capped as to how high of a refresh rate I can run on certain resolutions...for example, 1600x1000 resolution, the highest refresh rate I could reach is 113hz which is a 266 pixel clock speed...it seems to cap at a refresh rate of 120khz...

the driver's didn't fully update either, I had trouble installing the sunix drivers onto my windows 7...seems that even after manually updating the monitor drivers, it still doesn't recognize all of the native resolutions that are included with the monitor. I have to manually create all the different resolutions which is kind of an inconvenience.
 
Joined
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anyone know where i can reach unklevito? i put a down payment on a fw900after fedex dropped the one i originally bought, i failed to get the money to buy for this second fw900, so i would like my money back minus a few hundred for the time it took, i am in desperate need of that kind of money as it's over $1000 can even be 2 i don't remember.

edit found out he still is active here so i've sent a pm.

He's a good soul you shouldn't have any probs with him.
Email: unkle.vito@unklevito.com
Phone number: 626-221-7800

Apols if the details have changed that's what I have.
 

Enhanced Interrogator

[H]ard|Gawd
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For LCDs yes, but I don't see how a 100 Hz CRT would benefit from vsync regarding sharpness.

Read their articles about strobing/scanning displays (hint: CRT is a scanning display). Vsync matters at all refresh rates, especially on CRT's

EDIT: Well, when your FPS is equal or above your refresh rate and vsync is off, I guess you technically have sharpness in motion, but you still have tearing.
 

Derupter

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got the sunix card in the mail today....as derupter stated, you can go 1920x1200 @ 96hz...i was able to do also 2560x1600 @ 55hz but the flicker is far too noticeable at 55hz that it doesn't really have any good purpose or use unless you are watching video or movies....

I've noticed that even though I don't reach the max pixel clock of 330mhz, I seem to be capped as to how high of a refresh rate I can run on certain resolutions...for example, 1600x1000 resolution, the highest refresh rate I could reach is 113hz which is a 266 pixel clock speed...it seems to cap at a refresh rate of 120khz...

the driver's didn't fully update either, I had trouble installing the sunix drivers onto my windows 7...seems that even after manually updating the monitor drivers, it still doesn't recognize all of the native resolutions that are included with the monitor. I have to manually create all the different resolutions which is kind of an inconvenience.

Well,your goal was 1920x1200 85 Hz so at 96 Hz is good no?
For resolutions over 1920x1200 better to use downsampling,about the pixel clock if you set 2560x1600 56Hz what happens,black screen?
1920x1200 96 Hz is 322 MHz with CVT,2560x1600 56 Hz is 323 MHz so your limit is between 322 and 323?
I don't think that Sunix card has anything to do with that limit,maybe it's only an unfortunate chip of the adapter.
About the 120KHz limit,well that is the max horizontal scan rate of the FW900 (121-122 KHz),example you can't do 1600x1000 134 Hz to reach 320 MHz pixel clock because the horizontal frequency is 145 KHz.
The card driver are only for USB functionality,about the recognized resolutions the problem is that with these adapters the CRT is seen like a digital monitor,so the system shows you the standard resolutions as they are in the EDID.
Example in the EDID there is a 1280x960 75 HZ,in fact if you set that resolution you will see 75 Hz as max refresh rate,i had the same problem with Windows XP which does not support EDID override.
You need to use EDID override with CRU utility and set all the standard and detailed resolutions like you want,so you don't have to create all those custom resolutions manually every time you need,but simply you load your saved EDID profile one time.
 

Meeho

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Read their articles about strobing/scanning displays (hint: CRT is a scanning display). Vsync matters at all refresh rates, especially on CRT's

EDIT: Well, when your FPS is equal or above your refresh rate and vsync is off, I guess you technically have sharpness in motion, but you still have tearing.
CRT is not a sample and hold display. There is no influence of vsync on sharpness because backlight and pixel transitions aren't decoupled like on LCD's. FPS is not a factor.
 

Strat_84

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Haha, well, I'll try to elaborate.

In 8-bit color, red, for example, will have a value from 0-255 for any given pixel, right? So say we have a red value of 156 on a certain pixel, then you recalibrate your color in software, and it is now 142 being sent to your monitor, a shift of 14. So now what happens to a former value of, say, 12? It can't go to -2. So there ends up being compression somewhere, and that would lead to banding.

Am I on the right track here?
Oh yes, you are right indeed, that kind of process must lead to some slight information loss depending on the severity of the corrections. That's why the software profile is here to "finish the job", after the screen has been set as close as possible of the display goals with the OSD controls.

But unless you're in an extreme situation, like trying to fix a display outputing a 100 Cd/m² with a heavy blue tint into 60 Cd/m² @5000K only with a software profile, the loss should be minimal, you probably won't see it.

Here is the correction profile of my FW900 for example, according to the figures coming with it there must be a compression of about 5-6%, and I could have been more picky when setting that one.

Courbes de calibrage FW900-3 #1 2016-11-15 09-35 65cdm² D7500 0.001cdm² 2.2 M-S 1xCurve+MTX.png
 

3dfan

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Meeho. i may be wrong, but i believe EnhancedInterrogator is refering to motion clarity with "sharpness", assuming he is, a way for me to best undestand it with the benefits of vsync, is to compare it with real life while you are in motion, you see things while moving as clear, sharp, smooth, artifact free as you see in real life, at least on a crt with vsync on and using and afordable for you eyes refresh rate being matched with a constant framerate, but otherwise, if you dont use vsync, and FPSs do not match and are not constant to the refresh rate there will be imperfeccions while in motion such tearing (screen image looks sliced in half while in motion), or stuttering (like a feel of a jumping moving image) even on a crt at 100hz.
 
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Meeho

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Meeho. i may be wrong, but i believe EnhancedInterrogator is refering to motion clarity with "sharpness", assuming he is, a way for me to best undestand it with the benefits of vsync, is to compare it with real life while you are in motion, you see things while moving as clear, sharp, smooth, artifact free as you see in real life, at least on a crt with vsync on and using and afordable for you eyes refresh rate being matched with a constant framerate, but otherwise, if you dont use vsync, and FPSs do not match and are not constant to the refresh rate there will be imperfeccions while in motion such tearing (screen image looks sliced in half while in motion), or stuttering (like a feel of a jumping moving image) even on a crt at 100hz.
Yes, microstuttering and tearing would be influenced by vsync, but sharpness of whatever is displayed would be constant.
 

3dfan

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yes, would be constant but harder to appreciate if you have an inperfect in motion stuttery or sliced image, and vsync corrects all those imperfections to achieve a "super sharp" life like motion experiencie, i think thats the point, at least to me.
 

Enhanced Interrogator

[H]ard|Gawd
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Yes, microstuttering and tearing would be influenced by vsync, but sharpness of whatever is displayed would be constant.

I think for me, when you lose the evenly-paced frames from vsync, your eyes can't track objects on screen as reliably, which leads to a loss in the ability to obtain visual information.

So I guess that's technically judder, not sharpness. I stand corrected. But it kind of has a similar result in the end: you can't see what you're trying to see.
 

spacediver

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enhanced, if you use an Nvidia GPU with analog out, you'll be able to adjust the gamma table with 10 bit precision, so you'll be able to make fairly subtantial changes to gamma curve without losing any of the 256 distinct gray levels.
 

XoR_

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Use vsync, it really helps games look super smooth and sharp on CRT's (or any strobing display). But only after you download RTSS and cap your FPS at exactly your refresh rate. There are tutorials on how to do this to the precise decimal, which is what you need to do. That will cut down on the input lag significantly.
how come setting fps limiter helps with input lag when v-sync already acts like fps limiter?
what is good game example wher this can be tested?

v-sync bring a lot of issues and most games seems to stick with double buffering causing terribe frame rate drops
like I often saw how game got from >70fps to ike 30fps after enabing v-sync

all in al it is not worth to use v-sync at all and just disable it everywhere
 

Derupter

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Any updates from delock?

I have tested the "enhanced" sample,but the problem is that it's not better than before.
On the GTX 1070 like all other samples it works very good,but on the 7950 with the mini displayport adapter in the middle,it works only up to 180 MHz.
Since i don't trust the 7950 test,i asked Delock to send a sample to pr0ton,he tested on two different graphic cards (AMD and Nvidia) and it worked very badly.
The new AWG 30 cable didn't make the difference and they didn't use the best connector,but the second one.
Now we will make some experiments with the cable (even changing it) and after the results i will make a report to Delock
 

Mumble

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Dec 11, 2015
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I have tested the "enhanced" sample,but the problem is that it's not better than before.
On the GTX 1070 like all other samples it works very good,but on the 7950 with the mini displayport adapter in the middle,it works only up to 180 MHz.
Since i don't trust the 7950 test,i asked Delock to send a sample to pr0ton,he tested on two different graphic cards (AMD and Nvidia) and it worked very badly.
The new AWG 30 cable didn't make the difference and they didn't use the best connector,but the second one.
Now we will make some experiments with the cable (even changing it) and after the results i will make a report to Delock

Is there any way I can get on that mailing list? OR more importantly, can we be able to send one to Moome.
 

Aktan

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Hi all,

I've just received an all digital out GPU (AMD RX 480) and have done a ton of research again on finding an adapter with high pixel clock. I use two CRTs (ViewSonic G225f 1600x1200@100, Sony G500 1600x1200@60) and since my old GPU (AMD R9 280X) had at least 1 RAMDAC, I had no problems with my ViewSonic monitor and gave up on a high pixel clock for my Sony monitor and used some mini DP to VGA adapter with a pixel clock of around 200 MHz. Upon doing research again, I've stumbled onto this thread, which I'm a happy to hear such an adapter (the Delock DP to VGA) exist, though with problems. Due to the links to Sunix for a way to use a USB-C to VGA adapter with high pixel clock, I stumbled onto this product:

http://www.sunix.com/en/product_detail.php?cid=1&kid=3&gid=21&pid=1633

It mentions resolutions up to 2560X1600@60Hz which I think is around 330 MHz pixel clock. Has anyone tried this out? I do want to continue to use my ViewSonic monitor at an high refresh rate, and also use this new video card, so I am hoping for a cheap solution. I guess I could also wait for the Delock DP to VGA cable to mature too, or worse case, mod it myself, lol.
 

Derupter

Limp Gawd
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Hi all,

I've just received an all digital out GPU (AMD RX 480) and have done a ton of research again on finding an adapter with high pixel clock. I use two CRTs (ViewSonic G225f 1600x1200@100, Sony G500 1600x1200@60) and since my old GPU (AMD R9 280X) had at least 1 RAMDAC, I had no problems with my ViewSonic monitor and gave up on a high pixel clock for my Sony monitor and used some mini DP to VGA adapter with a pixel clock of around 200 MHz. Upon doing research again, I've stumbled onto this thread, which I'm a happy to hear such an adapter (the Delock DP to VGA) exist, though with problems. Due to the links to Sunix for a way to use a USB-C to VGA adapter with high pixel clock, I stumbled onto this product:

http://www.sunix.com/en/product_detail.php?cid=1&kid=3&gid=21&pid=1633

It mentions resolutions up to 2560X1600@60Hz which I think is around 330 MHz pixel clock. Has anyone tried this out? I do want to continue to use my ViewSonic monitor at an high refresh rate, and also use this new video card, so I am hoping for a cheap solution. I guess I could also wait for the Delock DP to VGA cable to mature too, or worse case, mod it myself, lol.

Well,if this can really handle 2560x1600 on the VGA output it should be the Analogix chip and if it works well and without signal problems or input lag is a very interesting product for the price,also it doesn't require the internal card.
We could contact Sunix to know what hardware is inside that box.
Pixel clock is 270 MHz because they always use the CVT reduced blanking when indicate those resolutions
 

Aktan

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Well,if this can really handle 2560x1600 on the VGA output it should be the Analogix chip and if it works well and without signal problems or input lag is a very interesting product for the price,also it doesn't require the internal card.
We could contact Sunix to know what hardware is inside that box.
Pixel clock is 270 MHz because they always use the CVT reduced blanking when indicate those resolutions

I emailed the USA address last night. I did quote them the wrong pixel clock though, since I didn't think it be CVT. We'll see if the USA branch knows anything, lol.
 

Derupter

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Don't worry about pixel clock,probably they don't even know what it is,the important thing is to know the name of the chip inside the box.
 

Aktan

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Don't worry about pixel clock,probably they don't even know what it is,the important thing is to know the name of the chip inside the box.

Funny you mention that. I just got a response and here is what they said:

First of all, thank you for your interest with our product. Our DPU3000 uses Synopsys VMM2322 chipset, and it may support up to 2560x1600 @ 60Hz but really depending on your output source. I do not have the pixel clock info with me now, and we will look for it for you.

I Googled that chipset and found this:

http://www.delock.de/produkte/H/87685/merkmale.html?setLanguage=en

Delock's product page unfortunately says max output of 1920 x 1200 @ 60 Hz for VGA :(
 

Derupter

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That chip seems to be only a Displayport MST HUB,there should be others IC for video conversion.
Anyway that Delock box seems to be the same product and clearly VGA is indicated as 1920x1200 60 Hz.
Since you are in contact with Sunix,try to ask them what chip is inside the C2VC7A0 and C2VC7AD,those USB-C to VGA adapters have 2560x1600 in specs.
 

Aktan

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Here is what Sunix said about C2VC7A0 and C2VC7AD:

C2VC7A0 uses Fairchild FUSB300 + Analogix ANX9847

C2VC7AD has not been released for North America yet; I do not have the info to share with you now
 

Moxieman00

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I have an HP A7217A located in Geneva, NY, been sitting in a closet for over a year. Contact me if you want it, pretty sure it still works. Was working when I used it last. Have a pair of VGA <-> BNC cables, HD fury (1st gen used for ps3), and the WinDAS? connector?, been a while since I've used it. All is free to good home.

In Watertown and willing to make the drive if you still have that
 

Derupter

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Here is what Sunix said about C2VC7A0 and C2VC7AD:

Thanks,another USB-C adapter to add to the list,now we have:
Delock 62796
Plugable USBC-VGA
Sunix C2VC7A0
So that VMM2322 has an integrated DAC and is Synaptics and not Synopsys?
 

Aktan

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So that VMM2322 has an integrated DAC and is Synaptics and not Synopsys?

I'm pretty sure the contact just typoed it since VMM2322 Google results doesn't list anything but the Synaptics one. Plus the fact that the Synaptics VMM2322 is also a "Hub with DP/VGA/HDMI out" is too much a coincidence to think it isn't the same one.
 

jbltecnicspro

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Just wanted to drop by and see how my CRT buddies are doing. I picked up a 9-inch PVM monitor yesterday to have in my toolshed (I have some tools that have video output that would benefit from having a portable CRT monitor) and let's just say I get the hype now. It doesn't have a ton of resolution but it's basically like a little TV on steroids. Most likely will upgrade to a bigger PVM/BVM for video games in the future. :)
 

Mumble

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Just wanted to drop by and see how my CRT buddies are doing. I picked up a 9-inch PVM monitor yesterday to have in my toolshed (I have some tools that have video output that would benefit from having a portable CRT monitor) and let's just say I get the hype now. It doesn't have a ton of resolution but it's basically like a little TV on steroids. Most likely will upgrade to a bigger PVM/BVM for video games in the future. :)

You can get a few models of Consumers TV and do a very simple OSD RGB mod for RGB, bigger then most BVM/PVMS outside the D24 and D32
 

jbltecnicspro

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You can get a few models of Consumers TV and do a very simple OSD RGB mod for RGB, bigger then most BVM/PVMS outside the D24 and D32

I know what you're talking about. Maybe one day when I have the skills. As it is I'd never get a D24 or D32 for the prices they command. I'd rather get another crt projector which also does RGB (and has more resolution to boot). :)
 

Enhanced Interrogator

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Just wanted to drop by and see how my CRT buddies are doing. I picked up a 9-inch PVM monitor yesterday to have in my toolshed (I have some tools that have video output that would benefit from having a portable CRT monitor) and let's just say I get the hype now. It doesn't have a ton of resolution but it's basically like a little TV on steroids. Most likely will upgrade to a bigger PVM/BVM for video games in the future. :)

Yeah, I lucked out and have a hospital equipment reseller nearby, and they have stacks and stacks of 21" and 14" PVM's. I bought 3 21" of various models. They're way more important to me than my PC CRT's. Because when playing stuff like SNES and Genesis, there's really no better way than on a 15kHz CRT.

I know what you're talking about. Maybe one day when I have the skills. As it is I'd never get a D24 or D32 for the prices they command. I'd rather get another crt projector which also does RGB (and has more resolution to boot). :)

From what I read, it doesn't seem too difficult.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155
 
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