Chinese Loongson 3A6000 CPUs Poised to Compete with Intel Willow Cove and AMD Zen 3

erek

erek

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It's gettin there

"Today's kernel patches focus on supporting the hardware page table walker (PTW). As PTW can handle all fast paths of TLBI/TLBL/TLBS/TLBM exceptions by hardware, software only needs to handle slow paths such as page faults. Additionally, in the past, LoongArch utilized "dbar 0" as a complete barrier for all operations. However, this full completion barrier severely impacted performance. As a result, Loongson-3A6000 and subsequent processors have introduced various alternative hints. Loongson plans to ship samples to select customers in the first half of 2023, so we could see more information surfacing soon."

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Source: https://www.techpowerup.com/308738/...-compete-with-intel-willow-cove-and-amd-zen-3
 
One has to assume that this is only really used for applications that the Chinese government wants to try and ensure doesn't have some kind of back door accessible to the NSA or other foreign intelligence agencies. It isn't going to compete on performance with anything from Intel or AMD, and perhaps most important for the Chinese consumer market, won't run a pirated copy of Windows.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'll believe it when I see it.

And even if it is successful, I wouldn't buy one and wouldn't recommend anyone else does either...
Click to expand...
"Loongson via Linux patches begins to enable CPU's that could rival AMD and Intel offerings. Loongson's in-house CPU ISA based in part on MIPS64 and inspiration from RISC-V."
 
erek said:
"Loongson via Linux patches begins to enable CPU's that could rival AMD and Intel offerings. Loongson's in-house CPU ISA based in part on MIPS64 and inspiration from RISC-V."
Click to expand...

That's great and all, but anything electronic under design authority from an authoritarian state involved in industrial.and other espionage is going to be a huge no from me.

Doesn't matter how fast it is, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
 
erek said:
in the past, LoongArch utilized "dbar 0" as a complete barrier for all operations. However, this full completion barrier severely impacted performance. As a result, Loongson-3A6000 and subsequent processors have introduced various alternative hints.
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Ah, opening themselves up to sidechannel attacks.
 
EmerilLIVE said:
One has to assume that this is only really used for applications that the Chinese government wants to try and ensure doesn't have some kind of back door accessible to the NSA or other foreign intelligence agencies.
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From an earlier article linked by the one in OP, "Loongson processors are generally bought in bulk by the Chinese government and military, to run servers and workstations that are completely devoid of foreign hardware, for security reasons."

Also in that article, which is about a year old, "Loongson claims that its upcoming processor microarchitecture will offer an IPC that matches that of the AMD "Zen 3" (or slightly faster than Intel "Willow Cove."). [...] Loongson has compared with off-the-shelf AMD Ryzen 5 5600G and Intel Core i7-1165G7 processors, on several cross-platform benchmarks, and claimed to have obtained comparable single-threaded performance."
 
Meeho said:
I've got some bad news for you...
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Please don't tell me you are conflating "manufactured in china" with "designed under Chinese authority".

These are VASTLY different things.

"Manufactured in" is a risk of exposure, but it can be mitigated through design oversight from the designers.

With "designed in/by" there are no controls.

This is why I would sooner have no phone at all than a Huawe,i Xiaomi or Motorola now that it is owned by the Chinese.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Please don't tell me you are conflating "manufactured in china" with "designed under Chinese authority".

These are VASTLY different things.

"Manufactured in" is a risk of exposure, but it can be mitigated through design oversight from the designers.

With "designed in/by" there are no controls.

This is why I would sooner have no phone at all than a Huawe,i Xiaomi or Motorola now that it is owned by the Chinese.
Click to expand...
NSA says hi
 
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Meeho said:
NSA says hi
Click to expand...


I agree, NSA's powers per the Patriot Act are troubling, and something that needs to be corrected (IMHO we need to end vast dragnets in the name of "safety") but
NSA isn't going to try to blackmail me or any of my colleagues, try to steal my works IP and get my work shut down leaving me unemployed.

NSA has certainly done some stuff I disapprove of, but they are VERY different animal than an authoritarian state secret police spying unit trying to undermine the west.

These are false equivalents.

And that is all I am going to say about that, as I don't want to get into a political argument against the rules. Happy to discuss in PM if you'd like though.
 
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Meeho said:
I've got some bad news for you...
Click to expand...
AMD:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in Taiwan
  • Assembled in China and Malaysia
Intel:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in USA and Israel
  • Assembled in USA, China, Malaysia, and Vietnam
Loongson:
  • Designed by Chinese
  • Manufactured in Italy
  • Assembled in China
 
Armenius said:
AMD:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in Taiwan
  • Assembled in China and Malaysia
Intel:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in USA and Israel
  • Assembled in USA, China, Malaysia, and Vietnam
Loongson:
  • Designed by Chinese
  • Manufactured in Italy
  • Assembled in China
Click to expand...

Americans (Intel) also designed the Management Engine, etc.

They also designed https://www.tomshardware.com/news/att-8-nsa-spy-fortresses,37353.html

Not to mention the deals between the NSA and various IT companies, especially those social network oriented.

We are under much greater spying and privacy violation danger from our own countries than China. Plus, we are more in danger from consequences of our government obtaining private information than from China doing the same. The only thing, really, one could fall back to is a moral principle, defiance to China, and similar. A valid thing to base decisions on, but let's not kid ourselves here.

BTW AFAIK, Huawei accusations never offered any proof of supposed compromised equipment. By all means, kick them out, but don't lie about it.
 
Armenius said:
AMD:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in Taiwan
  • Assembled in China and Malaysia
Intel:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in USA and Israel
  • Assembled in USA, China, Malaysia, and Vietnam
Loongson:
  • Designed by Chinese
  • Manufactured in Italy
  • Assembled in China
Click to expand...
How and why is manufactured in Italy
 
rgMekanic said:
Only fab left with the technology to make a reverse engineered Core 2 Duo.
Click to expand...
Hmm 🤔 🧐,

“Reverse engineering of microprocessors is a complex task that involves understanding the architecture and design of the chip, the integrated circuits, and their interconnections. This can be achieved both optically and mechanically, using various techniques such as microscopy, chemical decapsulation, and focused ion beam (FIB) milling. Automation in this process can make it more efficient, reduce manual errors, and speed up the process significantly.

Here are some general steps on how the reverse engineering process could be automated:

1. **Optical Inspection**: Use automated optical inspection systems to capture high-resolution images of the microprocessor die. These systems can be programmed to automatically scan the die and capture images at different layers.

2. **Automated Decapsulation**: Use automated decapsulation machines for mechanically or chemically removing the packaging material without damaging the underlying silicon.

3. **Layer-by-Layer Analysis**: Perform a layer-by-layer analysis of the microprocessor using FIB and scanning electron microscopy (SEM). FIB can be used to mill away layers of the chip, while SEM can be used to capture high-resolution images of the exposed layers. Automating this process involves programming the FIB-SEM system to automatically mill away layers and capture images. This can be a challenging task due to the possibility of milling too deep and destroying important structures.

4. **Image Processing and Analysis**: Use image processing algorithms to analyze the captured images and extract relevant information. Machine learning algorithms can be trained to identify different types of structures (transistors, interconnects, memory cells, etc.) and their interconnections.

5. **Circuit Extraction**: Use the extracted information to recreate the circuit design. This can involve creating a schematic diagram of the circuit and a layout diagram of the physical design. Automated tools can be developed for this purpose, which can generate these diagrams based on the extracted information.

6. **Simulation and Verification**: Use simulation tools to verify the correctness of the extracted design. These tools can simulate the behavior of the circuit based on the schematic and layout diagrams, and compare it with the expected behavior.

As you can see, automating the reverse engineering of microprocessors is a multi-disciplinary task that involves several different fields, such as optics, materials science, electronics, image processing, and computer science. It requires a deep understanding of both the physical design of microprocessors and the principles of these various fields. However, with the advancements in AI and automation technologies, it is becoming increasingly feasible to automate this process.”
 
Armenius said:
AMD:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in Taiwan
  • Assembled in China and Malaysia
Intel:
  • Designed by Americans
  • Manufactured in USA and Israel
  • Assembled in USA, China, Malaysia, and Vietnam
Loongson:
  • Designed by Chinese
  • Manufactured in Italy
  • Assembled in China
Click to expand...

Look at this and be honest, who would you bet your money on. C'mon now.
 
The NSA could have opted to secure the entirety of western IT infrastructure. Instead they opted to turn it to swiss cheese.
 
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