The Chinese GPU Invasion

serpretetsky

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Supposedly the previous gen S60 has already released, but I can't find any reviews of it. Just trying to get any idea of performance besides TFlops numbers from the company.
 

Sycraft

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I wouldn't call it an invasion until we see them all over the place. China tries to get into lots of markets, some they have a good deal of success in. You can't walk 10 feet without tripping over a Haier mini fridge it seems. Others they have no luck on. Seen any Chinese cars on the road? There's a reason, it isn't because they don't make tons, it is because they generally don't comply with safety standards for the US/EU.

I'll call it a Chinese GPU invasion when you see these on the shelves of Best Buy. For now it is them dabbling in a new market.
 

Verge

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I wouldn't call it an invasion until we see them all over the place. China tries to get into lots of markets, some they have a good deal of success in. You can't walk 10 feet without tripping over a Haier mini fridge it seems. Others they have no luck on. Seen any Chinese cars on the road? There's a reason, it isn't because they don't make tons, it is because they generally don't comply with safety standards for the US/EU.

I'll call it a Chinese GPU invasion when you see these on the shelves of Best Buy. For now it is them dabbling in a new market.
From all the patents i'm sure they stole, no way these will ever hit the shelves of a US store.
 

ChadD

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From all the patents i'm sure they stole, no way these will ever hit the shelves of a US store.
That won't be the reason.
We are probably 3 or 4 years away from China flooding external markets with competitive if not great GPUs. The US market isn't what China cares about.
I have been saying it for years... all the bans on Chinese tech will backfire spectacularly at some point. There will come a time when countries like India will be given a choice, don't buy Chinese or we won't sell to you... and we may not like their choice. In a decade the fight in Tech will be for non Western Markets, and China is going to have the goods to start squeezing US companies out.
 

Lakados

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Looking at them they look like beefy cellphone GPUs.
I'm sure you've all noticed you don't need fancy GPU driver updates for your cellphone for the latest mobile game, they follow a very strict API, and if this follows that API it is going to do very well in India, China, Taiwan, and other Asian growth markets.
Mobile APIs are very limited, and strict, but can manage some pretty decent results. Asian gaming markets are picking up the pace and if they nail the mobile APIs for their drivers then that alone will cover the driver aspect for the vast majority of their customer base.
 

Riev90

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From all the patents i'm sure they stole, no way these will ever hit the shelves of a US store.
Sorry to ask about Chinese stole many patents.
Is it true? I've been reading these kind of topics recently.
 

ChadD

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Sorry to ask about Chinese stole many patents.
Is it true? I've been reading these kind of topics recently.
It has about the same amount of truth as the way US companies sue each other over patent infringement. AMD and Intel sued each other for a decade. Yet no one says AMD stole everything from Intel... or Intel stole everything from AMD. (although both are guilty of patent infringement, which is why the settled with a cross license forever) For that matter Intel infringed on Cyrix... modern Intel chips owe as much to Cyrix as the first x86 designs. Intel paid for that with a cross license deal... which through sales ended up with Via, who now gladly licenses THEIR IP to Chinese companies making x86 chips.

The truth is in chip tech... 90% of patents are vague at best, and sure they where granted but trying to nail another company for "infringing" on a general description of how to perform X or Y or connect to a cache ect is damn near impossible. Mostly because if comes right down to it half the patents granted probably never should have been. It is why companies like AMD and Intel ended up in a years long slap fight... trying to prove another company didn't originally come up with something close is basically impossible. The GPU world would have the same issues... unless a patent is SUPER specific (which again most are not) or there is clear cut evidence a company hired an engineer that developed the same thing or something along those lines. Good luck suing. In something like Nvidias GPUs vs AMDs GPU... the 60-80 billion transistors are for the most part doing a lot of the exact same things. Its not like there is some novel way to store a bit of data... or multiply some math, or compress a texture that is unique to either. Of all the transistors in a GPU I would bet less then 10% of them are arranged in away that is patented, and court ever got involved a small fraction of those would be enforceable because the patents are just vague.
 

ChadD

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China is advanced as they are almost solely due to stolen IP.
This is dangerous and stupid.
$441.3 billion
That is how much China spent on technology research last year alone.

They are no more guilty of IP theft on a grand scale as any other large corporation. As I already pointed out... 3/4 of a current Intel chip is using NON Intel patents. Same for AMD. Nvidia... why do you think Nvidia and AMD bought so many smaller GPU companies back in the hay day of GPU companies. AMD didn't buy ATI for nothing... ATI didn't buy ARTX just cause. Nvidia didn't buy 3DFX to sell voodoo cards.

China is rapidly catching up and they have been for a decade. Way back when Obamas administration decided it was time to start punishing the Chinese for using Intel chips to simulate Nukes... China started burning research money like mad. Chips like the Sunway SW26010 where not stolen tech. It had features that no western chip at the time had... such as a network on a chip interconnect system for its 260 core chips. Such interconnects are still only really used in GPUs 3D stacked CPU logic will use a network on a chip. There is a reason China topped the super computer list with the machine using those chips in 2018. (they currently have a 26010 based machine at #6 on the list) Those are not Intel knock offs.. those are Chinese chips that where R&Ded at the cost of billions.

Thinking that stealing is all that China is capable of is dangerous because they are in fact real competition that is determined to kick our ass. Sure sure their little contract manufacturers are likely to produce 3x as much as you order and sell a bunch of knock offs... but don't mistake that wide spread stupidity for what is happening in their real homegrown tech sector. Sure they have tried to get access to some patents with license deals (like the x86 license held by Via)... don't think they don't have 4 or 5 other irons in the fire though. They have at least 5 Chinese CPU companies that are all working on very home grown chips. Some of the ideas they are willing to pursue are wild and quite capable of revolutionizing the industry. Make no mistake though the Chinese will keep throwing Billions every year into research they have a lot of very smart chip designers being paid very well, and they are competing against each other for even more $. At some point the money they are spending on Chinese Fabrication will start making all their crazy research projects reality.
 

Mchart

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This is dangerous and stupid.
$441.3 billion
That is how much China spent on technology research last year alone.

They are no more guilty of IP theft on a grand scale as any other large corporation. As I already pointed out... 3/4 of a current Intel chip is using NON Intel patents. Same for AMD. Nvidia... why do you think Nvidia and AMD bought so many smaller GPU companies back in the hay day of GPU companies. AMD didn't buy ATI for nothing... ATI didn't buy ARTX just cause. Nvidia didn't buy 3DFX to sell voodoo cards.

China is rapidly catching up and they have been for a decade. Way back when Obamas administration decided it was time to start punishing the Chinese for using Intel chips to simulate Nukes... China started burning research money like mad. Chips like the Sunway SW26010 where not stolen tech. It had features that no western chip at the time had... such as a network on a chip interconnect system for its 260 core chips. Such interconnects are still only really used in GPUs 3D stacked CPU logic will use a network on a chip. There is a reason China topped the super computer list with the machine using those chips in 2018. (they currently have a 26010 based machine at #6 on the list) Those are not Intel knock offs.. those are Chinese chips that where R&Ded at the cost of billions.

Thinking that stealing is all that China is capable of is dangerous because they are in fact real competition that is determined to kick our ass. Sure sure their little contract manufacturers are likely to produce 3x as much as you order and sell a bunch of knock offs... but don't mistake that wide spread stupidity for what is happening in their real homegrown tech sector. Sure they have tried to get access to some patents with license deals (like the x86 license held by Via)... don't think they don't have 4 or 5 other irons in the fire though. They have at least 5 Chinese CPU companies that are all working on very home grown chips. Some of the ideas they are willing to pursue are wild and quite capable of revolutionizing the industry. Make no mistake though the Chinese will keep throwing Billions every year into research they have a lot of very smart chip designers being paid very well, and they are competing against each other for even more $. At some point the money they are spending on Chinese Fabrication will start making all their crazy research projects reality.
This is all very true with needing to design/fab their own stuff for national security reasons. However, they have absolutely stolen the IP. You're correct that the west needs to take this stuff seriously, and I believe it now is (Although likely a bit too late), but China is not innovating here. They are stealing western IP, and producing it since they've/we've positioned them to be the only people to produce these things.

Even the most advanced of advanced technologies that they have, like hypersonics, etc, solely exist because they stole this stuff when it was in more open research stages at our universities.

Yes, you make the point about a company like, let us say Apple, only having their own CPU/GPU technology because they bought out patents/other companies... That isn't stealing. They properly bought the research/technology, and then invested the time/money to make it into a viable product. (Which is something people don't credit these companies for at all, by the way. They make it seem like what Apple does is just trivial, and anyone could have done it.) What China is doing is a complete 180 from that. They are just outright stealing the work. Doesn't mean they can't make marginal improvements on it. However, I can assure you they didn't advance in the field of hypersonics, etc due to their own critical thinking. What their culture (and entire government) is amazing at is the complete top-down control that allows rapid process replication, but critical thinking is not something cultivated in a society like that. This is why Chinese students are amazing at the SAT, but make for the most god awful employees at any organization that needs people that aren't just following a dictated process. Although this opens a whole new tangent of why the west is failing. We're rapidly losing the type of culture/society that cultivates critical thinkers.
 
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kamxam

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Plus they are good at reverse engineering things. Could take a PS5 (As an example only) and a few years down the road China will come out with their "Own" Chinese-Made CS5 Gaming platform that would look and play a lot like the PS5 does.
 

ChadD

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You guys are missing my point on companies "stealing" btw. It doesn't matter how the tech is acquired. Yes Apple Intel all the big tech companies iterate. The people that invented transistors are long dead. The people that invented operating, systems files systems, software ques they are all gone. 95% of everything we do is iteration. Find me a tech company that has a 100% original product that doesn't run windows linux or BSD... doesn't use tech from 100 other companies in their product. Everything is a rehash with the very odd here and there break through... that advances something. China is doing that right now. Thinking all they can do is steal is stupid. Their researchers are no different from Intels, Apples and the rest of the western company system. Sure a western company invented the solar panel... another western researcher found a way to make them a bit more efficient. Who is going to strap them to a massive farm in space and beam the power ? I used the SW26010 super computer chip as an example for a reason..... IF it was just stolen tech why was it the fastest super computer on the planet for the better part of a year ? Why is it still to this day faster then ANY Intel powered super computer ? Is it because their stolen tech is just fabricated better ? LMAO As I pointed out what we know of those chips (because as far as I know the west has never had one to properly pull apart) it uses an interconnect system that is MORE advanced then AMD Intel or IBMs. It is how they have managed to get 260 cores on each chip to communicate fast enough to build a 41k chip cluster then is besting the best of IBMs power/AMD/Nvidia powered monsters. Sure the cores themselves seem to be fairly standard MIPS chips. (which China has licensed legally no matter how much people want to say it was stolen) Its no different then Fujitsu licensing ARM cores and building their A64FX... yet no one is saying Fujitsu and Japan are thieves. Quite the opposite they say that is an ingenious ARM design.

Yes China has done a ton of iteration, as everyone has. With the Military stuff sure ok probably espionage going on there. With the tech stuff. Licensing... or iterating of tech that is either to general or too old for patents to apply is pretty standard industry practice. China is doing nothing different from other companies. You take proven tech and you extend it. You add some new functions to the logic... you put it on a novel interconnect... you add more cache or build a better prefetch. China is doing all of those things. They have researchers working on CPU prefetch units, if you read some of the research stuff that leaks out now and then. They have very intelligent well funded research companies. They are just as capable as we are, and mostly doing the exact same things. End of the day it really doesn't matter if they paid a company like Via for patent access to use x86... or if they just DO it anyway, if they find away to improve parts of the design that make it faster. They are going to still be in a position to crush us with it when they flood markets like India and other emerging Asian markets. They will have the same legal case any American company has if they where to end up in a fair court. American tech companies get accused of theft all the time. Patent suits are not exactly rare. (and in many cases they are guilty of theft as much as any Chinese company)
 

sleepeeg3

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China is advanced as they are almost solely due to stolen IP.
...or stealing engineers.

This is dangerous and stupid.
$441.3 billion
That is how much China spent on technology research last year alone.

They are no more guilty of IP theft on a grand scale as any other large corporation. As I already pointed out... 3/4 of a current Intel chip is using NON Intel patents. Same for AMD. Nvidia... why do you think Nvidia and AMD bought so many smaller GPU companies back in the hay day of GPU companies. AMD didn't buy ATI for nothing... ATI didn't buy ARTX just cause. Nvidia didn't buy 3DFX to sell voodoo cards.

China is rapidly catching up and they have been for a decade. Way back when Obamas administration decided it was time to start punishing the Chinese for using Intel chips to simulate Nukes... China started burning research money like mad. Chips like the Sunway SW26010 where not stolen tech. It had features that no western chip at the time had... such as a network on a chip interconnect system for its 260 core chips. Such interconnects are still only really used in GPUs 3D stacked CPU logic will use a network on a chip. There is a reason China topped the super computer list with the machine using those chips in 2018. (they currently have a 26010 based machine at #6 on the list) Those are not Intel knock offs.. those are Chinese chips that where R&Ded at the cost of billions.

Thinking that stealing is all that China is capable of is dangerous because they are in fact real competition that is determined to kick our ass. Sure sure their little contract manufacturers are likely to produce 3x as much as you order and sell a bunch of knock offs... but don't mistake that wide spread stupidity for what is happening in their real homegrown tech sector. Sure they have tried to get access to some patents with license deals (like the x86 license held by Via)... don't think they don't have 4 or 5 other irons in the fire though. They have at least 5 Chinese CPU companies that are all working on very home grown chips. Some of the ideas they are willing to pursue are wild and quite capable of revolutionizing the industry. Make no mistake though the Chinese will keep throwing Billions every year into research they have a lot of very smart chip designers being paid very well, and they are competing against each other for even more $. At some point the money they are spending on Chinese Fabrication will start making all their crazy research projects reality.
Ya... no. China has been very guilty at it. They wouldn't even be competitive, if they hadn't stolen to the point where they are today.
There was just an article on [H]ard about them stealing CPU tech. They magically made a 3 generation(?) leap to 7nm. Apparently, China itself even brought the law down on that particular company multiple times previously.
Taiwan (TMSC) goes to great precautions to rid themselves of Chinese spies, but it does not stop everything. The US basically does nothing.
Many instances of Chinese engineers infiltrating US corporations, academia and political offices and being caught on it.
They have a long history of stealing from themselves even. I read optical media was nothing, but pirating.
 
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Lakados

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Moore Threads has been pretty public with their cards to date and it is a heavily reverse engineered Nvidia architecture.

Given that most of their staff are former Nvidia China VPs, and Engineers, this is to be expected.

Nvidia doesn’t seem to upset with it and so far there haven’t been any public rumblings of lawsuits over their previous 2 GPU’s the S60 and S2000.

In all likelihood given the impending Made in China 2025 deadline Nvidia is working with them to some degree. Nvidia knows after that cutoff date their sales to China are going to tank so might as well get some licensing deals in place now while things are good then try to negotiate when things are bad.

At this point any arguments on what is or isn’t stolen here is pretty moot as the people they may or may not have stolen from are choosing to remain silent.
 

M76

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If someone can reverse engnieer an older product then make a better one cheaper, they should be allowed to, as it benefits the consumer first and foremost.

We are literally sitting on all our last gen technology, and expect china or india to start from sticks and stones, because we don't want to share our toys?
Ideas should not be owned ad infinitum. Patents should have an expiration date.
 
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The U.S. complaining about stealing omegalul. The irony. Literally founded on theft.
Doesn’t count, there was no patent system to facilitate more efficient theft back then.

Also, since when did American companies get trillions in “defence” subsidies and go out spending that money on international companies to pillage?

Oh wait.
 

Balkroth

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I'm honestly more interested to see the Innosilicon cards since they're using the Imagination Technology IP. Would be interested to see how the older A series performs, or B series if the new cards use it, but mainly wanting to see the CXT IP with raytracing on a Card. They've said they kind of want to get back into high performance GPU market, though I doubt they'd compete.

Well, really just want to see Power VR stuff, I liked them.
 

NickM

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If someone can reverse engnieer an older product then make a better one cheaper, they should be allowed to, as it benefits the consumer first and foremost.

We are literally sitting on all our last gen technology, and expect china or india to start from sticks and stones, because we don't want to share our toys?
Ideas should not be owned ad infinitum. Patents should have an expiration date.
They do. 20 years, IIRC.
 

M76

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They do. 20 years, IIRC.
So they can legally copy Pentium 4 now? Not that anyone would want to copy that heap. 20 years is beyond any reasonable utility for CPUs and GPUs, so it is almost as good as having no expiry. I'd say a reasonable time would be in the 2-5 year interval.
 

Lakados

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So they can legally copy Pentium 4 now? Not that anyone would want to copy that heap. 20 years is beyond any reasonable utility for CPUs and GPUs, so it is almost as good as having no expiry. I'd say a reasonable time would be in the 2-5 year interval.
Most companies plan and price according to a 10-20 year ROI for tech innovation, shortening that down would explode the pricing and price most tech advancements right out of the market. Might cost $2-3B to bring some features to market, getting that back over the span of a 5-year patent would be not feasible and would crush the ability of many to compete.
 

OFaceSIG

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China has manpower and engineering. But they are still behind. If you want a small sample of what this looks like in real life look at their military. Their planes and ships are not even comparable yet to Russia which as we've seen in Ukraine is not that impressive. All Russia's gains have been because they are larger and have more manpower. China will, at some time though pass Russia. When that happens we'll be in a pickle. Chinese J series Flankers are not as good as the Russian flankers, but they'll get there.

The SU-57 with what little public information is available a very capable air craft. A master dogfighter; yet the future is in BVR (beyond visual range). Dog fights are a thing mostly of the past. That's why the F22 is a stellar dogfighter but the F35 was designed to engage from distance and then bail. China, has nothing caparable to the SU-57. Their aircraft carriers lack catapults so it's harder to launch those huge Flankers fully loaded. China can and will catch up if we allow them to.

We shouldn't allow it. But nowadays AZ can't even count ballots in a timely manner. We are ****ed.
 

M76

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Most companies plan and price according to a 10-20 year ROI for tech innovation, shortening that down would explode the pricing and price most tech advancements right out of the market. Might cost $2-3B to bring some features to market, getting that back over the span of a 5-year patent would be not feasible and would crush the ability of many to compete.
Any reasonable tech product achieves ROI in a few years tops, IDK what CPU are you talking about that takes 20 years to break even. Sure some underlaying patents might be used for longer than one product line, but it is not that old patent that makes the new product marketable, it's all subsequent improvements to it, which presumably have their own newly filed patents.
 

Phazer Tech

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Moore Threads has been pretty public with their cards to date and it is a heavily reverse engineered Nvidia architecture.

Given that most of their staff are former Nvidia China VPs, and Engineers, this is to be expected.

Nvidia doesn’t seem to upset with it and so far there haven’t been any public rumblings of lawsuits over their previous 2 GPU’s the S60 and S2000.

In all likelihood given the impending Made in China 2025 deadline Nvidia is working with them to some degree. Nvidia knows after that cutoff date their sales to China are going to tank so might as well get some licensing deals in place now while things are good then try to negotiate when things are bad.

At this point any arguments on what is or isn’t stolen here is pretty moot as the people they may or may not have stolen from are choosing to remain silent.
Correct. Corporations are beyond politics and nations... they are international.
 

Phazer Tech

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Not in China. The CCP have at least partial ownership of ALL businesses registered in China. So Every business has at least partial fiduciary duty to the CCP.
I suppose my statement applies more towards US businesses. They have a tight relationship with the CCP, apparently
 

CAD4466HK

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China has manpower and engineering. But they are still behind. If you want a small sample of what this looks like in real life look at their military. Their planes and ships are not even comparable yet to Russia which as we've seen in Ukraine is not that impressive. All Russia's gains have been because they are larger and have more manpower. China will, at some time though pass Russia. When that happens we'll be in a pickle. Chinese J series Flankers are not as good as the Russian flankers, but they'll get there.

The SU-57 with what little public information is available a very capable air craft. A master dogfighter; yet the future is in BVR (beyond visual range). Dog fights are a thing mostly of the past. That's why the F22 is a stellar dogfighter but the F35 was designed to engage from distance and then bail. China, has nothing caparable to the SU-57. Their aircraft carriers lack catapults so it's harder to launch those huge Flankers fully loaded. China can and will catch up if we allow them to.

We shouldn't allow it. But nowadays AZ can't even count ballots in a timely manner. We are ****ed.
This.
Most of China's automotive industry is formed of complete Japanese knockoffs as well. Great Wall is a well known for basically just changing the sheetmetal in the front and calling it a day.

https://www.unfinishedman.com/ultimate-chinese-knock-offs-of-cars/

https://www.hotcars.com/22-chinese-copycat-cars-we-wouldnt-touch/
1668526957765.png


1668526991405.png
 

Legendary Gamer

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China has manpower and engineering. But they are still behind. If you want a small sample of what this looks like in real life look at their military. Their planes and ships are not even comparable yet to Russia which as we've seen in Ukraine is not that impressive. All Russia's gains have been because they are larger and have more manpower. China will, at some time though pass Russia. When that happens we'll be in a pickle. Chinese J series Flankers are not as good as the Russian flankers, but they'll get there.

The SU-57 with what little public information is available a very capable air craft. A master dogfighter; yet the future is in BVR (beyond visual range). Dog fights are a thing mostly of the past. That's why the F22 is a stellar dogfighter but the F35 was designed to engage from distance and then bail. China, has nothing caparable to the SU-57. Their aircraft carriers lack catapults so it's harder to launch those huge Flankers fully loaded. China can and will catch up if we allow them to.

We shouldn't allow it. But nowadays AZ can't even count ballots in a timely manner. We are ****ed.
I'm not certain that China needs the technological edge in the military. That doesn't even matter when you can, literally, throw 5-100x the number of bodies at a problem. The US engaging China in a conflict would be stupid, the cost of war is always insane. However, acting as a deterrent from them taking out Taiwan is essential due to the Taiwan providing most of the bleeding edge technologies we all use.

The SU-57, a "fifth generation" Soviet fighter that's been delayed for at least a decade and never hit full production...
***Number built: 16 (10 test and 6 serial); First flight: 29 January 2010)***

China has stealth fighters, maybe they're not as amazing as our stuff but doesn't matter when you have a shit ton of them to throw at a problem.

Not sure what we're talking about here... Notice the mention of Tensor Cores in the New Chinese Graphics Cards? That's a direct copy of the technology and terminology. Maybe they're not as good, but they've already had some experience making GTX 1080 knockoffs in the past and now they have something that is roughly on par with a 3060Ti about a year after it was released. Maybe it's not as good, maybe their drivers are shit, doesn't matter though if it comes to market for 3/4 the price. If these products ever hit mainstream markets, people will buy the shit out of em.

The IP theft stuff isn't cool. Pretty sure there would be some huge problems if Nvidia or AMD stole from each other and released identical product stacks... As far as someone holding onto the tech forever, that's lame too. But punching out a direct copy of last years hardware is a bit shit.

I welcome competition, this might do something and it might not but this isn't competition, this is a more akin to theft and resale of stolen goods.

Just my thoughts on the subject
 

tangoseal

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It's all legally obtained patented info they are using. Back in I believe 2014 Obama and the Congress passed a law that makes all US patent files publicly viewable. Nothing was allowed to be trade secret or redacted. Dare I say Intentional treason, but this conspiracy is not proper for this forum. So in my opinion these gpus are not innovation, they are intellectual theft and pledgerism. Stay very clear of these and support AMD and NV and Intel.
 

atarione

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yeah... now my video card can have a ccp spyware baked into it`s firmware... yay?

This is happening across many product types, all these companies that went to china to save .3cents on manufacturing basically had to submit technology exchange (FTT)... and now this is coming home to roost as Chinese firms come into the global market with products they basically learned how to make (while getting paid for it) making things for known western brands..

In short the Chinese seem to be playing 3d chess while we are playing checkers .....
 

Red Falcon

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Well it looks like the invasion turned around and went home.
https://videocardz.com/newz/moore-t...orce-gtx-1060-performance-and-110w-idle-power
View attachment 528063
The card only fully supports DX9, supports "most" of DX11, and has no DX12 or Vulkan support.
This is the list of confrimed working games at this time:
View attachment 528064
Also from that article, ouch:
Performance is not the only issue here, though. Power consumption of this card in standby mode is 114.6W, a truly unacceptable figure from any GPU in 2022. Just a few weeks ago Intel Arc A-series were criticized for relatively high idle power at 40-ish Watts, meanwhile the just-released RTX 4080 has idle power at 13W. Under load, the MTT S80 reaches as high as 240W during tests with an average at 210W.
 

staknhalo

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I'm not certain that China needs the technological edge in the military. That doesn't even matter when you can, literally, throw 5-100x the number of bodies at a problem.

Number of bodies means nothing when they can be wiped out mid deployment from half a world away by some enlisted teen and a Xbox 360 controller
 
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