Will Zen 4 be the real deal and a worthy upgrade from Zen 3

Spirit_Retro

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
421
https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000-raphael-x-zen-4-v-cache-desktop-cpu-launch-late-2022-confirmed/

AMD appears they are going to release Raphael-X CPUs with the 3D V-CACHE in November or December 2022. That tells me IPC and overall performance uplift is likely to be underwhelming compared to Zen 3? Otherwise why so soon afterwards to release 3D VCACHE versions if the standard versions were so much better??

Does not appear it will be the Zen 2 to Zen 3 uplift I had hoped for across the board.

Competition among Intel and AMD is very strong and both have their good and weak points. Unfortunately neither has a Conroe moment right now nor really ever did in last few years despite the progress. Don't get me wrong, I do not mean a Conroe moment to drive the other out to the point where competition is lax on the other side. What I mean is a Conroe moment where the other can respond. Zen 3 was maybe closest thing to Conroe moment from AMD, but even it was known to be coming and even it does not overclock as easily as Conroe did compared. Then Alder Lake from Intel with Golden Cove cores, but even they were not a Conroe moment and even less so than Zen 3 over Comet Lake as IPC uplift is less and not as pronounced across the board and still stuck at 8 p cores uhh!!

https://chipsandcheese.com/2021/12/02/popping-the-hood-on-golden-cove/

I also ran into this today:

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...in-mass-production-launching-this-year-rumor/
 

bobzdar

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,957
Like meaning do you think the standard Zen 4 16 core part will give 5800 XD gaming performance or better than it? Or will we have to wait for the 3D-VCACHE versions of Zen 4 first?

Looking at what they've shown so far I think we'll get 5800x3d gaming perf +5% ish but with 16 cores. The 3d v-cache version should give a larger jump, but we'll see. I'd expect that when Intel launches 13th gen, so ~ next spring.
 

learners permit

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 15, 2005
Messages
1,169
AMD released 3D VCACHE not because 5k series wasn't significantly better than the 3k but because they were responding to Intel. In addition, the 5800x3d showed significant gaming improvements in many games. A non 3d Zen 4 might not be significantly better than a 5800x3d in those situations, so why not make one available to also give those users something to upgrade to?
They are apparently pleased with public response to the 5800 3d sales to the point of focusing on development for Zen4. Should be beastly if engineering focus is on cache structuring and optimization for both CCDs even if clocks are limited a little by the additional heat on the stack.
 

TheSlySyl

2[H]4U
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
2,272
I think that 3dcache is monumentally difficult to do with current fabrication techniques and the 5800X3D was mostly a proof of concept that happened to fill an extremely important niche a few months ago.

It'll likely be a focus for future development though and this was just a little "taste" if you will.

AMD was able to show their investors that it's technology worth investing in.
 
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
8
If you believe the "leaks" Zen4 should be 8 to 10% low thread count boost with another good bump from frequency increase. Though it looks like power use will go up also.

I am looking forward to seeing how the multi-thread performance increases regardless as the latest Threadrippers are going highend / expensive. The smaller node along with the updates in Zen4 (cache, instructions, ect.) should be a good performance per watt bump, though AMD is going to push the power to up the all core frequency. This can be tamed to one's liking with PBO / Eco modes, ect.

Zen3 is coming up on 2 years now! We lost some tech time advancement with the Rona!

Cooling a 170 to 220 watt Zen4 is going to be interesting and case flow will be ever more important.
 

Spirit_Retro

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
421
If you believe the "leaks" Zen4 should be 8 to 10% low thread count boost with another good bump from frequency increase. Though it looks like power use will go up also.

I am looking forward to seeing how the multi-thread performance increases regardless as the latest Threadrippers are going highend / expensive. The smaller node along with the updates in Zen4 (cache, instructions, ect.) should be a good performance per watt bump, though AMD is going to push the power to up the all core frequency. This can be tamed to one's liking with PBO / Eco modes, ect.

Zen3 is coming up on 2 years now! We lost some tech time advancement with the Rona!

Cooling a 170 to 220 watt Zen4 is going to be interesting and case flow will be ever more important.

I get a kick out of the thermals incoming on Xen4. It makes be snicker a little....

Some of us who needed a lot of threading went on the Piledriver platform and had great success. The thermals on the 9590/9370, however, are on par with Zen4. The 9590 was a 225w part.

In other words you could heat a room with these things.

It will be all water all the time from here on out. 280mm rads mandatory.

Custom loops will probably become a lot more popular again.
 

WilyKit

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
457
I get a kick out of the thermals incoming on Xen4. It makes be snicker a little....

Some of us who needed a lot of threading went on the Piledriver platform and had great success. The thermals on the 9590/9370, however, are on par with Zen4. The 9590 was a 225w part.

In other words you could heat a room with these things.

It will be all water all the time from here on out. 280mm rads mandatory.

Custom loops will probably become a lot more popular again.
With so many cases having options for front and top mount radiators, I wonder if AIO's take advantage of this and offer dual radiator solutions.
 

evhvis

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
361
If you believe the "leaks" Zen4 should be 8 to 10% low thread count boost with another good bump from frequency increase. Though it looks like power use will go up also.

I am looking forward to seeing how the multi-thread performance increases regardless as the latest Threadrippers are going highend / expensive. The smaller node along with the updates in Zen4 (cache, instructions, ect.) should be a good performance per watt bump, though AMD is going to push the power to up the all core frequency. This can be tamed to one's liking with PBO / Eco modes, ect.

Zen3 is coming up on 2 years now! We lost some tech time advancement with the Rona!

Cooling a 170 to 220 watt Zen4 is going to be interesting and case flow will be ever more important.
As long as they have sensible limits on lower core usage then it will most likely be OK. Somewhere around 160-170w seems to be the sweet spot for the 5900x in all core loads and my guess is 180-200w is the sweet spot for the 5950x. The issue with cooling a the zen 3 CPUs is spot heat when it is dumping all the watts into one CCD so as long as the limits per core and CCD are good then it will mostly be a matter of capacity in the cooling system.

There are probably quite a few on this forum that can easily cool a 500w CPU as long as there aren't spot heat issues. Spot heat issues are when the CPU dumps a lot of watts into a tiny area and the heat transfer to the cold plate is unable to keep up. Even air coolers can handle 220w as long as the heat transfer is good, but you will get a lot of fan noise though.
 

lopoetve

Extremely [H]
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
32,950
As long as they have sensible limits on lower core usage then it will most likely be OK. Somewhere around 160-170w seems to be the sweet spot for the 5900x in all core loads and my guess is 180-200w is the sweet spot for the 5950x. The issue with cooling a the zen 3 CPUs is spot heat when it is dumping all the watts into one CCD so as long as the limits per core and CCD are good then it will mostly be a matter of capacity in the cooling system.

There are probably quite a few on this forum that can easily cool a 500w CPU as long as there aren't spot heat issues. Spot heat issues are when the CPU dumps a lot of watts into a tiny area and the heat transfer to the cold plate is unable to keep up. Even air coolers can handle 220w as long as the heat transfer is good, but you will get a lot of fan noise though.
~looks at his TR 3960X at 4+ ghz all core~

Ayup. You speak truth.
 

motqalden

[H]ard|DCOTM x5
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
2,772
I use eco mode a lot on my 3900x's I still get all core boost to around 3.8 and its only maybe 10% slower than stock while keeping package to 84w. My 5950x doesnt like it and i agree 200w+ is much better for ACB on 32 threads
 

bobzdar

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,957
As long as they have sensible limits on lower core usage then it will most likely be OK. Somewhere around 160-170w seems to be the sweet spot for the 5900x in all core loads and my guess is 180-200w is the sweet spot for the 5950x. The issue with cooling a the zen 3 CPUs is spot heat when it is dumping all the watts into one CCD so as long as the limits per core and CCD are good then it will mostly be a matter of capacity in the cooling system.

There are probably quite a few on this forum that can easily cool a 500w CPU as long as there aren't spot heat issues. Spot heat issues are when the CPU dumps a lot of watts into a tiny area and the heat transfer to the cold plate is unable to keep up. Even air coolers can handle 220w as long as the heat transfer is good, but you will get a lot of fan noise though.
This, if you can run current gen with pbo, zen4 shouldn't be too much of an issue. My guess is they will be pushing the boost right out of the gate so it will behave like current gen with pbo on and not have much additional headroom unless you push silicon fit. Most with a good 240 aio or more shouldn't have an issue.
 

mvmiller12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
1,291
As for 2nd generation AM5 platforms, will there even be any before Zen 5? I mean aftercall AMD released X570 as the flagship for Zen 2 and never released another chipset for Zen 3? It was X570 and the slightly stepped down B550 that were the flagships and stayed on for Zen 3 with no new releases unless you count motherboard makers making fanless chipsets and updated motherboard revisions of X570 and B550 well after Zen 3 came out as 2nd generation chipsets?? Not sure why AMD released new chipsets for Zen and Zen+ and Zen 2, but not Zen 3 when Zen 3 was the best.

Considering there is no real feature difference between X370 and X470 at all I fail to see the point of doing so - they are effectively the same chipset. IMHO X470 was more of an excuse to force a rethink of motherboard design since a lot of X370 boards were pretty slapdash. Hell, I remember having a hard time getting a good definitive answer on what X470 brough to the table that X370 did not, and as I recall, the only thing you could get an answer on was X470 had some caching software you could get for free from AMD (and then, discovered on further reading, that the software in question was a rebrand of an existing 3rd-party product that if you bought directly from the manufacturer worked just fine on X370 as well).

X570, on the other hand, IS different. If I recall correctly, the X370 and X470 chipsets were licensed from Asmedia (I think it was Asmedia, anyway). X570 is AMD's first in-house design for a Ryzen chipset and also brought along PCIe 4.0. Part of the expense of it was recouping R&D costs. Unless there was to be a significant feature change, or an attempt to force another rethink on mainboard design, there really was no point in releasing a dedicated Zen 3 chipset.
 
Joined
May 23, 2021
Messages
8
Overall power use of newer puter gen CPU along with a new gen PGU seems problematic. Along with potentially needing a bigger power supply and decent airflow case or enough fans / noise for cooling.

I can even imaging that some homes may have power delivery issues with other appliances / stuff on the same circuit as these new power hungry puters.
 

funkydmunky

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
3,202
I think that 3dcache is monumentally difficult to do with current fabrication techniques and the 5800X3D was mostly a proof of concept that happened to fill an extremely important niche a few months ago.

It'll likely be a focus for future development though and this was just a little "taste" if you will.

AMD was able to show their investors that it's technology worth investing in.
Exactly.
Designing a CPU with known 3Dchache capabilities and what is needed or not puts Zen4 Vcache CPU's well ahead of the test subject 5800X3D. And we all saw how that performed in its niche.
Zen4 has its ace in the hole. It will launch its advanced tech only when needed or if they can market segment for extreme profits. If they are in a parody with Intel they, I think, will hold back.
Intel, while doing well, is pushing the power envelope much like Nvidia is. That always hits a wall. Just think of next gen Intel with a Nvidia card (as rumors) and how many are wanting a new specialized over priced PS on top of RAM and MB?
 
Last edited:

GoldChain

n00b
Joined
Jan 6, 2016
Messages
54
It sounds like the Fabric sweet spot will be 3000 and DDR5 at 6000 so, that should be a huge latency reduction between chiplets.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
61,172
magic-8-ball-150x150.png


It always gets me when people ask these questions about something that is unreleased with almost no confirmed specifications or product details. The fact is, we just don't know how good Zen4 will be.
 

mvmiller12

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
1,291
I really don't foresee anything coming down the pipe in either the Radeon or Ryzen lines that is gonna make me feel a strong urge to leave my Radeon 6800XT and Ryzen 5950X setup behind - at least not for a while.

Every game I want to play runs great at 4K native res, my video encodes benefit from all 32 threads available from my CPU, the Crosshair VI Extreme mainboard does everything I need and desire except PCIe 4.0 (and I doubt I'd see any significant performance advantages over the PCIe 3 I have now), the speculated CPU performance gains are middling at best, and on top of all of that... I'd have to buy STOOPID expensive DDR5 RAM on a new mainboard to take advantage of it. By the way X570 and B550 boards have been priced, I don't see reasonable prices being a thing for nice AM5 mainboards either.

To be clear, I'm sure that there will be a performance uplift on the new platform, but I'd put money on it not being even in the same ballpark as my last whole-platform transition in terms of either total expenditure OR performance - FX-8350 to Ryzen 1700 (~$500 total for the CPU, RAM, and Asus Prime B350-Plus mainboard I started out on which is still kicking today with a Ryzen 3950X on it).
 

Brackle

Old Timer
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Messages
8,162
I would think it will be a pretty big upgrade. Clock for Clock the IPC increase is 8-10%. So at 4.5ghz, a Zen 4 would be 8-10% faster overall at 4.5ghz. Then add in another 800mhz-1ghz in clock speed, with a new memory standard and upgraded infinity cache.....You can easily see Zen 4 will be much better overall.

Now the real question is will it be Raptor Lake? Thats the million dollar question. I will say this. AM5 is a new platform that will be around for what 4 years? Raptor lake is on a outgoing platform.
 

polonyc2

Fully [H]
Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
22,760
if you already have a Zen 3 CPU then I highly doubt Zen 4 will be worth an upgrade (especially since you need a new motherboard, memory etc)...Zen 4 is more future proof only because the socket design will last longer
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
3,675
if you already have a Zen 3 CPU then I highly doubt Zen 4 will be worth an upgrade (especially since you need a new motherboard, memory etc)...Zen 4 is more future proof only because the socket design will last longer
Yeah it will be a small upgrade and if the price speculation is true, at an increased cost.
 

LukeTbk

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
2,948
TSMC 5 and double the L2 cache, 5.0+ all core PBO, it could be a worthy upgrade (or not) but could be.

if the rumored 8-10% IPC gain are true for example and that many core reach 5.5+

say you go from a 4950 to a 5550 with a 9% IPC increase, could that mean a 22% boost ? And possibly much more on the multi-thread side simply from going 7 to 5nm and heat production, could be 50% more there for a 33-35%

Depend on the workload and cost obviously, but certainly could be worth it for many people (Avx-512 users being an obvious case has well). Cost being possibly major here, specially on the DDR5 side

A 6700K was around 16% and 26% faster than a 4770k and the same 2 years between release according to passmark, for a comparison.
 

TheHig

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
1,079
Doing at least one AM5 build for a buddy so depending on how that goes I may bite next year some time but we’ll see. I’ve got a couple of good ddr4 setups now and not really in a hurry to rebuild. He’s on a 6700k system we built when that was released so the upgrade should actually be worthwhile for him.
 

Randall Stephens

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Mar 3, 2017
Messages
1,486
tech too new, new standards tech too expensive

new cpu arch

new chipset

new mem standard

new pcie standard

pass, help mature my future products for me, guinea pigs <3
Heatsink compatibility is the same so they’re building off a proven item there.
 

TMCM

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Messages
1,476
Doing at least one AM5 build for a buddy so depending on how that goes I may bite next year some time but we’ll see. I’ve got a couple of good ddr4 setups now and not really in a hurry to rebuild. He’s on a 6700k system we built when that was released so the upgrade should actually be worthwhile for him.
I'd like to know how it goes as my main rig is an i6700k
 

Geforcepat

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
1,058
delayed?! i didnt know there was even a date announced....
Well, There's been strong talk about sept 15 but it sounds like it's been delayed a few weeks to 1. Not let Raptor lake have all the headlines that day/week. 2. Try to minimize bios issues at launch. And they had to sign another NDA. No sense in another nda if the original date still stands in my opinion. I could be wrong. But that looks like what has happened.
 

Surly

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Messages
343
Worth upgrading from Zen3?? No not really, it would a very modest/incremental upgrade. But this is always the case when moving from 1 cpu gen to the immediate next.
 

Vengance_01

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 23, 2001
Messages
6,775
Gonna wait till I see a zen 4 7600x 3d cache chip. Till then I will pass. Current setup is just fine for 1440p (5600@4.6 single core and all core at 4.5ish) and 6700xt.
 

THUMPer

2[H]4U
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
4,019
So if the 7700x is releasing now, at 449, or 499. And no 7800x yet. I bet they skip the 7800x and just do a 7800x 3D. There wouldnt be a reason for a non 7800x 3D
 

kirbyrj

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
30,085
What is not looking good? Those prices are basically the same as 5xxx series.

And Intel is looking to raise prices on Raptor Lake vs. Alder Lake, so it's almost like a price cut factoring in out of control inflation and increased production costs.
 

chameleoneel

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
6,103
Additionally, the 8 core is the 7700x. Not the 7800x (5800x is the Zen 3 which launched at $450. The 5700x is $300.)
 

vegeta535

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
9,635
Additionally, the 8 core is the 7700x. Not the 7800x (5800x is the Zen 3 which launched at $450. The 5700x is $300.)
And? They might if bump down the normal x800 to x700 to save it for the 3D version. Prices are only going to be going up.
 
Top