And they still wonder why linux isn't more popular.

auntjemima

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Is Linux on the desktop an important metric?

Perhaps IoT/Servers/Cloud/Infrastructure/etc are more telling?
Oh those devices Linux reigns supreme because it doesn't have a history of host attacks AND it can be made very lightweight. It also has the server world experience behind it.

I wouldn't say one metric is more important than another, but I would say that being told to run terminal commands, no matter the amount of key clicks, to do basic things in Linux, that's HEAVILY GUI based now, is a bit ridiculous.

A simple GUI toggle and this could have all been done with at post 2.

I have no issue running terminal commands I copy from the internet, but I find any resolution to an issue I have always tends to be 4 versions older than the current release version and rarely fix the issue. If you aren't lucky enough to find a fix for your specific version of Debian, you're SOL. I can't speak for Arch.
 

Mazzspeed

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Oh those devices Linux reigns supreme because it doesn't have a history of host attacks AND it can be made very lightweight. It also has the server world experience behind it.
Actually, IoT is a huge security issue. Not due to any problem with Linux, but due to shady Chinese manufacturers.

I have no issue running terminal commands I copy from the internet, but I find any resolution to an issue I have always tends to be 4 versions older than the current release version and rarely fix the issue. If you aren't lucky enough to find a fix for your specific version of Debian, you're SOL.
I find the exact same problem searching for solutions to problems under Windows. In fact, in the reverse sense, I was recently confronted with a problem regarding iCloud contacts sync with Outlook under Windows 8.1 (which is technically still supported) and all I could find was solutions for Windows 10. Apple state minimum system requirement for the iCloud app to be Windows 10, yet they specifically have a Windows 8 download of the software on their official download page, with no comments stating that it isn't still being developed considering Windows 8.1 is still supported by MS.

Don't search for solutions re: Debian, search for solutions re: Ubuntu. You'll get newer and better results.

This isn't a problem unique to Linux, try finding a solution to a problem under MacOS, all you'll get is a huge list of paid applications that mostly never work as intended or you'll be told to perform an SMC reset or reset NVRAM. However, when you do find a solution that works, it will usually involve the use of terminal using commands almost identical to Linux.
 

Axman

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Canonical is a company that contributes to the Linux desktop, as is Red Hat.

"No one" spending money is figurative language. I know there is a teensy bit of money that goes into it. I'm sure Valve and System 76 account for the most of it.

But is it even a whole, single percent of the money spent on developing Linux? I seriously doubt it. No, the real money comes from big oil, networking infrastructure, government agencies, aerospace, and a whole bunch of other interests that couldn't give two shits about desktop crap. The guys they pay to develop for Linux are probably still running their own hentai-themed X11 desktops they wrote themselves by hand in the mid-aughts.
 

auntjemima

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Actually, IoT is a huge security issue. Not due to any problem with Linux, but due to shady Chinese manufacturers.


I find the exact same problem searching for solutions to problems under Windows. In fact, in the reverse sense, I was recently confronted with a problem regarding iCloud contacts sync with Outlook under Windows 8.1 (which is technically still supported) and all I could find was solutions for Windows 10. Apple state minimum system requirement for the iCloud app to be Windows 10, yet they specifically have a Windows 8 download of the software on their official download page, with no comments stating that it isn't still being developed considering Windows 8.1 is still supported by MS.

Don't search for solutions re: Debian, search for solutions re: Ubuntu. You'll get newer and better results.

This isn't a problem unique to Linux, try finding a solution to a problem under MacOS, all you'll get is a huge list of paid applications that mostly never work as intended or you'll be told to perform an SMC reset or reset NVRAM. However, when you do find a solution that works, it will usually involve the use of terminal using commands almost identical to Linux.
I do search for Ubuntu, but my understanding is it's built on debian, no? That's the only reason I mentioned it and the OS works with *.Deb files.
 

Mazzspeed

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"No one" spending money is figurative language. I know there is a teensy bit of money that goes into it. I'm sure Valve and System 76 account for the most of it.

But is it even a whole, single percent of the money spent on developing Linux? I seriously doubt it. No, the real money comes from big oil, networking infrastructure, government agencies, aerospace, and a whole bunch of other interests that couldn't give two shits about desktop crap. The guys they pay to develop for Linux are probably still running their own hentai-themed X11 desktops they wrote themselves by hand in the mid-aughts.
Well not according to Red Hat:

https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/gnome-desktop-project

Naturally Canonical make a desktop OS, so there's little doubt regarding contributions there. Like the bigger distro's from Red Hat and SUSE, these companies including Ubuntu make money by selling support to enterprise customers, which then funds the distro and upstream bug fixes. Then there's the Linux Foundation, Linux in general isn't just some code slapped together by unpaid developers on GitHub, there is literally pages of corporations paying developers to contribute to Linux, all are visible in the Linux Foundation annual report as Linux Foundation Members. In 2021, the Linux Foundation spent $180m, 20% up from 2020, and the Linux Foundation support the development community in all aspects of Linux development. All in all there's undoubtedly a far larger support network behind Linux considering corporations and unpaid developers than there is regarding just Microsoft and Windows; and they support every aspect of the operating system, not just everything up to the shell.

Roughly 80% of Linux is developed by paid developers.

Linux isn't stuck in last decade, the desktop is every bit as functional as Windows if not better in some cases.
 
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Mazzspeed

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I do search for Ubuntu, but my understanding is it's built on debian, no? That's the only reason I mentioned it and the OS works with *.Deb files.
It's built on Debian, but Debian is a stable build usually used on servers without a DE. Vastly more people use Ubuntu as opposed to Debian on the desktop, therefore you'll get more results as well as newer results when searching for fixes if you include Ubuntu in your search. My mileage, finding results for fixes using Google regarding Ubuntu, is every bit as effective as finding results for issues under Windows - And I run KDE Neon.

Because KDE Neon implements various aspects of Ubuntu, including certain aspects of the package manager, I've yet to find a fix that didn't resolve whatever issue I was having. However, it is very rare that I have an issue TBH.
 
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Vermillion

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It's built on Debian, but Debian is a stable build usually used on servers without a DE. Vastly more people use Ubuntu as opposed to Debian on the desktop, therefore you'll get more results as well as newer results when searching for fixes if you include Ubuntu in your search. My mileage, finding results for fixes using Google regarding Ubuntu, is every bit as effective as finding results for issues under Windows - And I run KDE Neon.

Because KDE Neon implements various aspects of Ubuntu, including certain aspects of the package manager, I've yet to find a fix that didn't resolve whatever issue I was having. However, it is very rare that I have an issue TBH.
Your other reply a few pages ago was one of the best I've read on these forums.

I'm with you on the KDE train. Although I'm just KDE on Arch.

If you actually want to LEARN (yes it means you have to put forth some effort for a change) Linux you get choice. Don't like stock Gnome? Add some extensions. Don't want to do that? Go try Budgie, MATE, XFCE, KDE, Cinnamon, Deepin, Pantheon, Enlightenment, or any of the other DEs out there. But you have to be willing to learn and expand your knowledge.

For those who think Windows isn't winning because they're on 99% of sold PCs: Who sells Linux preinstalled on computers in bulk? Not Dell. They only have their developer edition XPS systems where Ubuntu is an option. Not HP. Not Lenovo. Not anyone. System76 is one of the few that sell only Linux on laptops (just rebranded Clevos) but they certainly don't have the sales like Dell. Outside of the Linux world people looking for computers don't even know System76 exists. Amazon has TWO laptops for sale that are Linux preinstalled.

My wife and kids have ZERO problems using Ubuntu MATE. Yes, I had to install it, but it shows where Linux is quite viable for anyone if they could get it preinstalled and that's the point.

We've seen where people are tired of being tracked. Look at the recent changes to privacy in iOS. Do you want to be tracked? NO is the overwhelming answer. Windows is a pile of spyware in many ways. "Free" from Microsoft is anything but. Forcing people into signing up for an MS account just to use Windows. Yes, we here on [H] know how to get around that but does the average person? Not a chance in hell. Oh look....having to jump through hoops on Windows to get things to work the way you want it to. It goes both ways on any platform.

At least I know all of my Linux systems aren't using a cloud connected account to sign into the system. At least I don't have to opt out of an advertising ID on my operating system during setup. At least I don't have to worry about uninstalling all the crapware bundled with Windows. At least I don't have to worry about whatever other telemetry is being sent back to MS.

If people knew there were viable alternatives to Windows, that didn't trample on their privacy, they would consider it and Linux would grow. The problem is educating the masses that Windows isn't the only option and getting them to actually want to try something new. For many change is really hard.
 
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Mazzspeed

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Your other reply a few pages ago was one of the best I've read on these forums.
Naw...Why thank you! So much nicer than getting flamed to hell. :)

Yeah, how much of them are paying to develop the single-user desktop environment? It's nothing. It's an afterthought.
I'm going to assume you just skimmed my post, because it's all there. You need to read before you reply.

The misguided belief that the Linux desktop is an afterthought while the Windows desktop is perfection is, essentially, no more than misguided belief. Millions use Linux desktops every day with no more problems than those encountered under any other OS - Essentially no operating system is problem free.
 
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Axman

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I'm going to assume you just skimmed my post, because it's all there. You need to read before you reply.

Nope, read the whole thing. I don't think any serious money, regardlessly of who spends it, amounts to any significant spending on Linux as a desktop, compared to the amount of funding as a whole.

And that article was written over 10 years ago. The real spenders are other companies now, and I guarantee you Red Hat isn't up there anymore. System 76 has more invested.
 

Mazzspeed

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Nope, read the whole thing. I don't think any serious money, regardlessly of who spends it, amounts to any significant spending on Linux as a desktop, compared to the amount of funding as a whole.

And that article was written over 10 years ago. The real spenders are other companies now, and I guarantee you Red Hat isn't up there anymore. System 76 has more invested.
This is where we validate the psychology behind the backfire effect.

If you want a newer article, here's the latest. Once again, from Red Hat themselves:

https://www.redhat.com/en/about/our-community-contributions

Reading the article 100% supports all of my claims. Note under 'Communities we contribute to > Software communities':

We're a proud contributor to all aspects of the software stack, from the operating system and developer toolchain to middleware, desktop, and cloud. In addition, Red Hat financially supports a number of open source organizations who help us create and maintain better open source software.
When you consider the overall polish of the Linux Desktop, then consider the number of issues experienced under Microsoft's desktop operating system, you begin to question just what you're paying for. I guess that's why most here buy questionable cheap $40.00 Windows keys instead of paying full retail.
 

Mazzspeed

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What total percentage of all money spent on Linux is spent on desktop environment development?
Due to the fact that Linux is a collaboration, such data will be almost impossible to find. However when you consider Microsoft, finding out just how much they dedicate to Windows R&D is equally as difficult.

The fact is, cloud infrastructure is the area growth is expanding exponentially, not desktop operating systems. Even Microsoft's own 2021 Annual Report highlights that commercial cloud revenue increased by 34%, while Windows OEM licensing revenue 'increased slightly' - Windows OEM licensing was literally the only area where Microsoft did their best not to disclose growth between 2020 and 2021.

JDk1vxr.png


At the end of the day, considering Microsoft's breakdown of it's three business segments, 'More Personal Computing' covers everything from Windows products, through to gaming and even search and advertising revenue - Nowhere do they state just how much Microsoft spend regarding R&D on the individual products making up their More Personal Computing business segment. However, based on the fact that Windows OEM licensing only 'increased slightly' (an increase of 4% driven mostly by growth in Windows Commercial driven by an increase in Microsoft 365 demand) while Xbox content and services increased by 23% and search and advertising revenue increased by 13% - I think it's obvious that Microsoft doesn't allocate a lot of it's R&D budget towards Windows as an operating system anymore. Looking at Windows 11, it really is just a polished Windows 10.

As can be seen in the following article, Microsoft's revenue and operating income is mostly made up of intelligent cloud as well as productivity and business processes - With both adding to around 60-70% vs roughly 30% for more personal computing which includes more than just Microsoft's Windows operating system.

https://www.investopedia.com/how-microsoft-makes-money-4798809

It's obvious the future for Microsoft is in Microsoft 365/Office 365 subscription models and cloud computing, Windows as a revenue source is obviously experiencing little to no growth in this modern age.

Therefore, attempting to claim that one OS is better than another based on R&D budgets alone when such information is obscured, is hearsay at best and open to criticism. Furthermore, all operating systems experience issues, this is nothing unique to the Linux desktop, it's certainly nothing the Windows desktop is immune from.

Furthermore, at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing to state that more financial outlay in terms of R&D makes for a better product in any way whatsoever. All throughout history corporations have thrown countless dollars at developing products only to see them fail.
 
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whateverer

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In the KDE Plasma interface (available ready-made officially from Ubuntu as their 'Kubuntu' installer) I believe one can just right-click an application from the start menu and select 'Add to desktop'.

Whenever I've needed to use Ubuntu I use Kubuntu since things seem to be more intuitive coming from Windows.

But that's the problem with Linux - there are two dozen different windows managers, and getting your favorite to work in a world of Gnome-orKDE library integration (depending on the app) means messing with tons of mixed libraries.

Android fix the problems b y standardizing on a single environment.
 
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Axman

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Due to the fact that Linux is a collaboration, such data will be almost impossible to find.

It's clear it's not a priority. I'm calling a spade a spade. Linux as a desktop lags pretty far behind anything made my Microsoft and Apple, both companies who produce multiple user environments across multiple platforms. It takes a Google to make an Android, and even then, a lot of people find Android frustrating.

Companies just aren't putting money into Linux for single-user systems. Beyond System 76 and Valve. They're tiny players in the Linux community.

Linux is an enormously successful operating system, but it was never user-focused. I hope that changes, and like I've said before, I think we're seeing the beginnings of change. One of the things that needs to go is open-source software's terrible habits of forcing best practices on users.

Just let people use the desktop how they want to, and let people save to lossy files without exporting them to a different format. And let people put the close window buttons where they fucking want.

These aren't best practices, it's petty tyranny done by petty developers who feel like they should dictate how to use their tools because they made them on their own time and want subservience as compensation for their efforts.
 

Vermillion

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But that's the problem with Linux - there are two dozen different windows managers, and getting your favorite to work in a world of Gnome-orKDE library integration (depending on the app) means messing with tons of mixed libraries.

Android fix the problems b y standardizing on a single environment.
What in the world are you talking about?

Each DE pulls in it's own dependencies and runs no problem. In the past I've run 5 or 6 different DEs on a system with no problem and no crazy issues with libraries and/or dependencies. Removing those DEs and their dependencies it just as easy.
 

travm

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Furthermore, the XPS series preinstalled with Linux isn't sold in such a configuration in all countries.
I wonder how much of that is due to the oss licencing being, out of touch with the nwo.

engage tinfoil hat
 

BlueLineSwinger

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What in the world are you talking about?

Each DE pulls in it's own dependencies and runs no problem. In the past I've run 5 or 6 different DEs on a system with no problem and no crazy issues with libraries and/or dependencies. Removing those DEs and their dependencies it just as easy.

I think it's a conflating of desktop environments (e.g., KDE Plasma, Gnome) and toolkits used to build them and many apps (e.g., Qt, GTK), and the fact that they might not match up and you might have multiple sets of dependencies installed. Admittedly, things can look/act a touch nicer when an app uses the same toolkit as the DE, but it's not an issue like it was at times years ago.

The fact is, the same thing exists on Windows, the Apple OSes, Android, etc. Many of those same toolkits are cross-platform. It's just that instead of the typical Linux situation where the dependencies are really a separate install simply triggered by installing some app/etc., those dependencies are an integrated part of the app install or even compiled directly in. If Linux solutions like Flatpak/Snap/etc. take off it'll start to look much the same as those other platforms.
 

auntjemima

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Every time I see a Linux thread I wish I was able to use it. Unfortunately the games my kids play both need windows.
 

GoldenTiger

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Every time I see a Linux thread I wish I was able to use it. Unfortunately the games my kids play both need windows.

I'd consider using it for the privacy aspect, but it doesn't have anti-virus that I know of, and too many of my games and apps either won't run, or won't run as well, on Linux.

I have no real complaints with windows either other than the telemetry (which many pro programs and many games run too on any os) which means a switch doesn't make sense for me.
 

auntjemima

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I'd consider using it for the privacy aspect, but it doesn't have anti-virus that I know of, and too many of my games and apps either won't run, or won't run as well, on Linux.

I have no real complaints with windows either other than the telemetry (which many pro programs and many games run too on any os) which means a switch doesn't make sense for me.
I don't have an issue with windows either, so there's no real reason to chang besides having something new to learn.
 

travm

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I don't have an issue with windows either, so there's no real reason to chang besides having something new to learn.
you'll never get to experience the frustration displayed in this thread if you don't at least give it a shot. I think games are even an option in most cases now.
 

auntjemima

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you'll never get to experience the frustration displayed in this thread if you don't at least give it a shot. I think games are even an option in most cases now.
Oh, I guess I should have mentioned it. I have used Ubuntu MATE, PopOS!, Mint, Kbuntu, Zorin (I think that's the name)... I have run them on my desktop and my servers. 100's of installs. Just can't on my main PC.
 

D-EJ915

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Every time I see a Linux thread I wish I was able to use it. Unfortunately the games my kids play both need windows.
The only reason I use windows on my gaming pc is because bungie said they'd ban you if you don't run it on windows. I mean seriously it's been 6 years and we still have 2 control panels.

Whenever i use linux im constantly googling what should be simple stuff. On mint for example my mouse scroll wheel was super slow. Had to find some third party script just to change it. Windows you just search mouse. My keyboard light button doesnt work on linux without a script. Windows it just works. Want to change fan speeds on your second gpu in linux? More command line fun. Whats that black screen after trying the third guide to enable it? Time to google howto recover from backup... i could go on...
This is my same complaint about mac os and why it sucks, I have a new mac evangelist at my office and even he admitted he uses 10 or so extension programs to add basic functionality like scrolling that is consistent. The reason I have an iphone for my work phone is so I can help users out when apple changes something in an update and have no help features to let you know they changed it and the user can't figure it out. I sure do love working with them lol. (also note that my laptop is a mac as is my previous one). Your mentioning keyboard reminds me that you have to uninstall the HP keyboard software on their computers to install activclient otherwise it won't install, I sure do love windows.

I'm also not a new gnome fan, it's garbage and I'm not even a person that likes desktop environments, I used sawfish with a mac classic skin as my window manager back when I dailied linux.

Regarding the really stupid things people are complaining about, regular users barely even know how to browse websites and still type URLs into the search box on their home page instead of the address bar and you expect them to know the difference between windows and linux? lol okay.
 
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cjcox

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We can say what we will about the apparent lack of intelligence of the normal person, but then they suddenly become rocket scientists when transferring from one phone to another, just saying.

Shoot, I think it's more difficult to change insurance coverage than switching to Linux. I still think we greatly underestimate the consumer.
 

D-EJ915

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We can say what we will about the apparent lack of intelligence of the normal person, but then they suddenly become rocket scientists when transferring from one phone to another, just saying.

Shoot, I think it's more difficult to change insurance coverage than switching to Linux. I still think we greatly underestimate the consumer.
With how many clients that come to my office and ask us to do it for them or call from verizon, etc. because they need help I'm not so sure about that. That being said most people don't seem to care enough to put effort to learn anything because we're here to help them. Nobody is going to "switch" to linux because they don't care enough to not use what came on the computer and probably don't even know you can run something else on it either.
 

GoldenTiger

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Nobody is going to "switch" to linux because they don't care enough to not use what came on the computer and probably don't even know you can run something else on it either.
There's also little reason anyone would want to, in the vast majority of cases.
 

Mazzspeed

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It's clear it's not a priority. I'm calling a spade a spade. Linux as a desktop lags pretty far behind anything made my Microsoft and Apple, both companies who produce multiple user environments across multiple platforms. It takes a Google to make an Android, and even then, a lot of people find Android frustrating.
And I have no problem stating your claim is flatly wrong. These are the Linux subforums, so I can't see an issue with being blunt. My KDE desktop is easily as good and objectively better than anything made by Microsoft or Apple. I run a 27" 4k monitor with fractional scaling, and everything works perfectly. It doesn't matter if the application was coded using the GTK or Qt toolkit, every application I've tried scales and runs perfectly. Desktop animations using Nvidia hardware/drivers and X11 are smooth as butter, there's nothing missing functionality wise - In fact I have finer control and more functionality under KDE than I do under either Windows or MacOS. My desktop is intuitive - Far more intuitive than MacOS, my desktop is modern and sleek, desktop items are well proportioned and make effective use of desktop space....The list goes on really.

I honestly cannot think of a single reason to switch back to Windows as a desktop OS when my experience under KDE Neon is so polished.

Companies just aren't putting money into Linux for single-user systems. Beyond System 76 and Valve. They're tiny players in the Linux community.
OK, repeating the same thing over and over when people are providing valid rebuttals won't change the reality of the situation. I've already provided a link regarding 'the backfire effect' and the psychology behind people on the internet becoming counterintuitively more entrenched in their position when presented with data that conflicts with their beliefs, but for easy reference I'll link it again below:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-psychology-of-internet-rage-2018051713852

but it (Linux) doesn't have anti-virus that I know of

Wrong again. Do you perform any due diligence before generalizing? ClamAV runs on literally every OS made including Linux and has the full support of Cisco as well as 144 other companies, not to mention the additional independent developers all listed on the ClamAV website under 'About'. It's used widely on mail servers where Linux is popular. It also has to be very effective as mail servers are, naturally, widely targeted platforms. If you want a GUI for your desktop system to use with ClamAV, you can install ClamTk which is actively developed and very simple to install with a 'sudo apt install clamtk', you also have the option to download and install the .deb and install via the GUI just like Windows - No going to potential malicious websites pushing themselves up in Google rankings, downloading insecure .exe or .msi files, and potentially installing a PUP: Everything is on official Ubuntu repos, the source is viewable, and every change is very well documented.

Furthermore, ClamAV is an enterprise grade product. So no spamming popups in the bottom corner of your desktop trying to up sell VPN's and other useless garbage. It's also packaged as a .deb, so you can install it via the GUI just like Windows.

But realistically speaking, the Virus, malware, PUP, crypto, trojan issue under Linux is minuscule to none compared to the vast quantity of infections under the Windows platform that's increasing weekly. Remember, we've been over obscurity via obscurity and how it's a term that really doesn't stand to scrutiny anymore as a result of Android as an operating system - So it really isn't a valid argument anymore.

Here's the link to ClamAV:

http://www.clamav.net

Here's the link to ClamTk:

https://github.com/dave-theunsub/clamtk

and too many of my games and apps either won't run, or won't run as well, on Linux.

And to quote myself once again:

As for games, Linux is currently the second most supported platform under Steam considering both native as well as Proton compatible titles. Furthermore, unlike Apple, Linux supports native Vulkan (in many cases better than Windows), has ongoing OGL support, and supports Nvidia hardware/drivers. Naturally Windows is leading in relation to games, as it's quite simply been the chosen platform since the onset of PC gaming and been a part of Steam for far longer than any other platform - Unless Microsoft do something to seriously piss off their user base, that's a situation that's unlikely to change based on time alone.

Using platforms such as Lutris, even more gaming titles under a variety of launchers including Blizzard, Origin and Epic Games are supported under Linux. At this point in time 4009 titles are supported under Lutris.

In relation to game installation: Regarding Proton, you check ProtonDB for compatibility, download the game, install the game no different to Windows and run. Regarding Lutris: You check the Lutris site for support, download the installer script, run the script via the GUI, install and run.

If there's a problem, they're usually the exact same problems experienced by Windows users and the same fixes that work for Windows also work for Linux (Origin issues anyone?).

Win32 performance is improving under Linux in leaps and bounds thanks to an enthusiastic community. Using advancements such as DXVK/VKD3D/D9VK and Esync as well as Fsync with the latest kernel's, performance is close, equal to, or surpassing Windows performance. Furthermore, while such terms sound daunting, both Proton and Lutris will use them automatically where supported and needed.

As for the highlighted section of your quote, your statement that games don't run as well under Linux, once again, really isn't true. Like clockwork: Stating "Games", followed by "Performance" followed by "Games don't run well under Linux" really isn't effective due diligence when it mostly appears to be based on generalization. In fact many of your comments are literally strawman arguments.

So, for clarity as well as citation, here's some Flightless Mango benchmarks:

https://flightlessmango.com/

Happy reading.

 
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Bowman15

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I'm no Linux fanatic arguing either way but gaming has come a long, long way from even a few years ago. Proton is a game changer pardon the pun. That being said I am no fan at all with the fragmentation of multiple distributions. Its just too much for the average user in my opinion. Installing is just as easy as Windows 10 now days but once that is done the fun begins in the configuration depending on your needs.
 

cjcox

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I think it also depends. I mean, for some computer is just a "thing" that's expensive and does what my phone already does (not that phones are cheap, just that it's "required"). For others a computer is something with great potential, but at least with Linux, the cost is purely sweat equity. Doing some things in Windows is expensive or nearly impossible.
 

Axman

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OK, repeating the same thing over and over when people are providing valid rebuttals won't change the reality of the situation. I've already provided a link regarding 'the backfire effect' and the psychology behind people on the internet becoming counterintuitively more entrenched in their position when presented with data that conflicts with their beliefs, but for easy reference I'll link it again below:

This doesn't describe me. This is expression by projection.
 

cjcox

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With how many clients that come to my office and ask us to do it for them or call from verizon, etc. because they need help I'm not so sure about that. That being said most people don't seem to care enough to put effort to learn anything because we're here to help them. Nobody is going to "switch" to linux because they don't care enough to not use what came on the computer and probably don't even know you can run something else on it either.
Very true. Just as there are phone users that know not anything else but Apple. Microsoft's monopoly on desktops is a thing. If all our computers came with Linux pre-installed, we might start trolling on the Windows forums casting shade at them for being "irrelevant", etc..
 

travm

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
1,845
I'm no Linux fanatic arguing either way but gaming has come a long, long way from even a few years ago. Proton is a game changer pardon the pun. That being said I am no fan at all with the fragmentation of multiple distributions. Its just too much for the average user in my opinion. Installing is just as easy as Windows 10 now days but once that is done the fun begins in the configuration depending on your needs.
agreed, I think valve has been trying to sort this out, but stumbling. We'll see if steam deck helps. I would love a functional gaming desktop based on linux. Previously BF games were the problem, but since BFV was fumbled so hard, i didnt buy 2142 (Thank god), so I might have a more open mind with respect to gaming on linux.
 

D-EJ915

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Messages
1,669
Wrong again. Do you perform any due diligence before generalizing? ClamAV runs on literally every OS made including Linux and has the full support of Cisco as well as 144 other companies, not to mention the additional independent developers all listed on the ClamAV website under 'About'. It's used widely on mail servers where Linux is popular. It also has to be very effective as mail servers are, naturally, widely targeted platforms. If you want a GUI for your desktop system to use with ClamAV, you can install ClamTk which is actively developed and very simple to install with a 'sudo apt install clamtk', you also have the option to download and install the .deb and install via the GUI just like Windows - No going to potential malicious websites pushing themselves up in Google rankings, downloading insecure .exe or .msi files, and potentially installing a PUP: Everything is on official Ubuntu repos, the source is viewable, and every change is very well documented.

Furthermore, ClamAV is an enterprise grade product. So no spamming popups in the bottom corner of your desktop trying to up sell VPN's and other useless garbage. It's also packaged as a .deb, so you can install it via the GUI just like Windows.

But realistically speaking, the Virus, malware, PUP, crypto, trojan issue under Linux is minuscule to none compared to the vast quantity of infections under the Windows platform that's increasing weekly. Remember, we've been over obscurity via obscurity and how it's a term that really doesn't stand to scrutiny anymore as a result of Android as an operating system - So it really isn't a valid argument anymore.
Linux AV I feel is more for detecting things that have a possibility to infect windows clients they serve more than anything. There are also managed "enterprise" products that support linux as well, I know sophos and eset both do at least but what features they support I've not looked. I know mac clients usually have a more limited feature set compared to windows ones.
 

DogsofJune

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
4,201
I am extremely new at Linux, but every time I think about it, I can't stop having "CLI or GTFO" feel to it...
CLI is very useful, but the majority of everyday stuff is handled very well in GUI. No different than the command prompt found in windows.
 
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