And they still wonder why linux isn't more popular.

FSCDiablo

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I said a basic feature should be available. It isn't available when the requirement is 10 steps long or using the terminal to install apps to do the job. That. Isn't. Normal

Did you ever actually click the OP actual link to solve his problem? 2 options were given and both were 2 steps to completion.

The link provided the command line way to do it, but you could do it via app but let's face it command line is easier. It's copy and paste.

You're bleating on and on how a 2 step process is a Linux killer.
 

auntjemima

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I said a basic feature should be available. It isn't available when the requirement is 10 steps long or using the terminal to install apps to do the job. That. Isn't. Normal

Did you ever actually click the OP actual link to solve his problem? 2 options were given and both were 2 steps to completion.

The link provided the command line way to do it, but you could do it via app but let's face it command line is easier. It's copy and paste.

You're bleating on and on how a 2 step process is a Linux killer.
Never said it was a Linux killer. It's a basic feature that shouldn't need app installation or terminal usage.
 

M76

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Adding shortcuts to the desktop is one of the simplest things you should have to do and yet you have to jump through hoops to do it. If Linux truly offered easy options, the feature would obviously be there, its a no-brainer

This whole stupid argument has been your base. Linux DOES offer options; first Linux is NOT the issue here gnome is: second gnome offers an option to resolve the issue : third Linux offers more OPTIONS to easily install other desktops to resolve the issue.

Fourth;. I'll repeat:

As fast as they make software dummy proof the world keeps making better dummies.
That's like saying it's not a Ford problem, you just have the wrong engine in it, install a different one, noob!

This is not about being a dummy, this is about ease of use and convenience. I've been running CentOS servers 10 years ago, I'm not a linux dummy, I just think such a basic thing shouldn't be a problem for an OS that's not so secret goal is mainstream desktop adoption.
When I was setting up centOS for commercial use, I didn't mind editing conf files, and using the terminal for everything, for desktop use however that is unacceptable.

There is a "terminal" in windows too, and it offers great features for industry pros, but as a normie user you never need to use it, especially not for something so trivial.
 

Mazzspeed

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I dunno about that. As you said, the options are sparse and really opening Linux up requires a lot of knowledge that isn't helpfully/readily available and up to date.
I actually find troubleshooting Linux easier than Windows. First of all I can simply copy/paste simple terminal commands using nothing more than the center mouse button (best idea ever), as opposed to trawling through instructions on how best to navigate a GUI, or worst of all: A guide based on a YouTube video. Second of all, I have no problem finding troubleshooting information regarding my preference for Ubuntu based distro's - I definitely find such information far more useful than any information obtained via volunteers on the official Microsoft forums.

Sfc /scannow is 99% useless and 90% quoted on the official MS forums. The other 9% is advice telling people to make another user profile, which is about as helpful as sfc /scannow.

I also have a lot of programs and utilities that don't have Linux equivalents or equals. Photoshop, office (Libre is not an acceptable substitute for compatibility or some advanced uses), substance (superior on windows), Max/Maya which many in my industry use, visual studio, etc. Performance varies wildly on unreal engine and unity editors on linux compared to windows. Finally, games of course (perf or compatibility issues for most games).
Ah, the traditional tried and true Photoshop and MS Office argument. Firstly, Adobe software is hot garbage from a support perspective, and from that perspective I will avoid it at all costs. Secondly, as an advanced user that uses my PC for work I have few problems with Libre Office. Where Libre Office doesn't work, Office online works perfectly 100% of the time. As for Substance, revert back to my point above re: Adobe - It's a shame Allegorithmic got bought out by Adobe. Luckily, both the Linux version and the Windows version can be run simply and easily via Proton on Steam.

MS Office is the worlds least compatible with ISO standards office suite promoted as the most compatible, there are compatibility issues between differing versions of MS Office itself.

If it's Office collaboration users want, Google Workspace is fantastic and I've yet to find a document authored under MS Office that Google Workspace won't open - I find Millennials love Google Workspace while older Gen Xers seem to be stuck in the past with MS Office.

As for Maya, Maya is available for Linux; in fact Maya is used extensively in an area Linux has found it's niche, with that niche being the SFX industry where almost every workstation, server and rendering cluster runs Linux. So I'm not too sure where you got the idea from that Maya doesn't run under Linux. If you consider software such as Blender, which is very powerful and useful and used in industry, Blender actually runs faster under Linux than it does under Windows.

As for games, Linux is currently the second most supported platform under Steam considering both native as well as Proton compatible titles. Furthermore, unlike Apple, Linux supports native Vulkan (in many cases better than Windows), has ongoing OGL support, and supports Nvidia hardware/drivers. Naturally Windows is leading in relation to games, as it's quite simply been the chosen platform since the onset of PC gaming and been a part of Steam for far longer than any other platform - Unless Microsoft do something to seriously piss off their user base, that's a situation that's unlikely to change based on time alone.

Using platforms such as Lutris, even more gaming titles under a variety of launchers including Blizzard, Origin and Epic Games are supported under Linux. At this point in time 4009 titles are supported under Lutris.

In relation to game installation: Regarding Proton, you check ProtonDB for compatibility, download the game, install the game no different to Windows and run. Regarding Lutris: You check the Lutris site for support, download the installer script, run the script via the GUI, install and run.

If there's a problem, they're usually the exact same problems experienced by Windows users and the same fixes that work for Windows also work for Linux (Origin issues anyone?).

Win32 performance is improving under Linux in leaps and bounds thanks to an enthusiastic community. Using advancements such as DXVK/VKD3D/D9VK and Esync as well as Fsync with the latest kernel's, performance is close, equal to, or surpassing Windows performance. Furthermore, while such terms sound daunting, both Proton and Lutris will use them automatically where supported and needed.

Linux security for the desktop always strikes me as odd. I think it's more security through obscurity than anything. How would the average user know of a bot on his Linux desktop when he has no anti-virus? Do you just check logs every day and hope there are no flaws in Linux with your distro?
First of all, most software under Linux is not installed as some .msi or .exe from some obscure corner of the internet with no physical security whatsoever. Most of the time software is installed from curated secure archives using cryptographically signed keys to confirm just who uploaded the PPA to Launchpad (using PPA's as an example). While the process is not 100% secure, it's certainly more secure than the download and installation of some random .msi or .exe directly to one's PC. Furthermore, the concept of Potentially Unwanted Programs (basically user installed Malware) is remarkably difficult from within terminal. Speaking of terminal, there is a level of security in actually being able to see exactly, in real time as a list, just what packages/libraries are being installed to your machine.

Second of all, UAC has been a fairly leaky privilege escalation tool since Vista was dumped in favor of Windows 7, Microsoft had the right idea with Vista, but users complained it was too intrusive. Essentially UAC is intended to be more of an inconvenience, forcing developers to stop creating software that runs as Administrator.

Thirdly, by virtue of the fact that Linux is open source, vulnerabilities are usually found and patched faster and in larger numbers than under Windows - It helps when you can see the code and have the support of a huge community and a number of very large corporations behind you.

Security by obscurity is invalidated as soon as you consider Android. Yes, it's a mobile OS, but it's still an OS - And a very popular OS, globally far more popular than Windows and used for a number of sensitive applications. Yet Android suffers a minuscule number of infections in direct comparison to Windows by virtue of it's method of software installation via a central curated repository. The term really doesn't stand to scrutiny anymore, especially when you consider the value behind Internet facing Linux machines protecting huge amounts of sensitive data.

As for MacOS and infections, as someone that works in IT, in every case I have no problem removing Malware under MacOS in under five minutes with no damage to the underlying operating system. This is most definitely not the case under Windows. Although, granted, this is just personal experience and I don't expect it to be used as any form of evidence in favor of MacOS.

Finally, the Linux community tends to be very hostile and harsh, while largely unhelpful in most ways (help, feature request, up to date manuals and guides, forums, etc.) :(.
On the internet I've seen hostile Windows communities, I've seen hostile motoring communities, I've seen hostile political communities, the list goes on - This is a generalization and something definitely not unique to Linux. We actually have a name for the psychology behind this new age problem, it's called 'the backfire effect' and is usually a result of people becoming counterintuitively more entrenched in their position when presented with data that conflicts with their beliefs.

I expect to see such examples as a result of my very reply, a reply I have put a lot of thought and time into as opposed to stating "Microsoft Office" and "Photoshop" followed by 'Windows is better'.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-psychology-of-internet-rage-2018051713852

There's also the documented issue of online disinhibition:

https://www.kqed.org/education/532334/is-the-internet-making-you-meaner

Give her a blank PC and a usb stick and tell her "good luck". Let her pick the distro, figure out the install steps and then the initial setup.
If I gave my Wife a USB stick containing Windows install media along with a PC, she would have just as much trouble installing Microsoft's operating system as she would installing Ubuntu. I personally see this as a moot point regarding modern packaged distro's.

If someone was to claim their Wife can compile and install Arch no problem whatsoever, I'm sure there may be Women out there perfectly capable of doing so, but such a claim would honestly leave one open to speculation.

As for Desktop icons, this is a Gnome problem and highlights the benefits of DE diversity - As basically, the Gnome devs can kiss my ass as I've switched 100% to KDE and it works perfectly.
 
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cjcox

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You're missing the point. Linux is about choice but they don't add in options for that choice. They pick what they LIKE and think you need and when you suggest they add the option it's "there are other distros with that option". So, in reality, not choice, but perceived choice.
"They" meaning a distribution? Sure, "they" can't support the gazillion of packages and options as pre-packaged supported "things". But, you can. But, I wouldn't. Because it's a lot. But it does show you just how much bigger the Linux FOSS world is compared to closed proprietary OS worlds.

It can require a lot of work to compile everything from scratch. Distributions make life easier by doing the work (and hopefully testing) for you, but not everything. But it's awesome that you can compile whatever you need from scratch. I'll take that freedom any day over the alternative.

For some, freedom can be unbearable. (feel free to quote me on that)
 

blackmomba

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You succesfully changed my mind, what I've written is not really the biggest obstacle in front of mainstream linux adoption. It is the members of the community who act like this.
Seriously, you can't see how silly all this sounds?

It isn't so hard to understand that there isn't one Linux like there is one Microsoft. Distros are different projects run by different people with different needs and priorities.

Linux doesn't hide the nuts and bolts that keep your computer running and for Linux users that's a good thing. I understand that it can be overwhelming for some, but that doesn't mean you have to blame the community because you can't wrap your head around a terminal or how someone wouldn't want desktop icons cluttering their shit

Personally, I think desktop icons are archaic given you've got stuff like launchers, docks, taskbar shortcuts, plenty of stuff that takes 3 seconds to get used to
 

LukeTbk

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or how someone wouldn't want desktop icons cluttering their shit
I am not sure, I understand much of the conversation, how does it matter if someone would not want desktop icons not suggested that the OS should force icons on it, they just not have to create them

And what there is to clutter on a desktop without icons to start with ?

It isn't so hard to understand that there isn't one Linux like there is one Microsoft. Distros are different projects run by different people with different needs and priorities.
I also have an hard time why this was not rapidly understood, but at the same time someone is talking about one of the most mainstream distributions and the mindset involved being that choice being a reason why Linux isn't more popular.

Having thread on ask.ubuntu how to add desktop icons and the response is an argument that someone can make (while it will be marginal versus the momentum of the current park and pre-installed OS on OEM device obviously)
 

Axman

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Personally, I think desktop icons are archaic given you've got stuff like launchers, docks, taskbar shortcuts, plenty of stuff that takes 3 seconds to get used to

That's like saying actual, physical desks are archaic since we have laptops that by definition do not require desks.

Digital desktops are for organizing information and the tools to manage them for work projects. They continue to excel at that.
 

M76

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Seriously, you can't see how silly all this sounds?
How silly what sounds? It's just an example of linux being difficult. And by difficult I don't mean beyond people's capabilities, but that it should be more straightforward. It might come as news but most people want to use their computer OOB, not tinker with it, and learn how to set things up from terminal, how to give permissions, etc etc. A regular user should never need any of this.
It isn't so hard to understand that there isn't one Linux like there is one Microsoft. Distros are different projects run by different people with different needs and priorities.
Yes, and Ubuntu is one of those distros that is specifically aimed at desktop usage. And don't come with this oh just change from kde to gnome, or gnome to kde, because that's greek to most users, and they couldn't be bothered. I can't be bothered nowadays.
Linux doesn't hide the nuts and bolts that keep your computer running and for Linux users that's a good thing.
This has nothing to do with hiding anything. Just because there is a send to desktop function in windows doesn't mean you can't browse to your desktop folder and manually copy a shortcut there.
I understand that it can be overwhelming for some,
You still don't get it. in order to access a common function you have to get under the hood and tinker with it. You wouldn't accept that in any other consumer product.
but that doesn't mean you have to blame the community because you can't wrap your head around a terminal
I blame the community for this mentality: "oh you are just too dumb for it" when I explained many times that I've been using linux for over a decade, for work, but now I look at it from the perspective of a home user who just wants a desktop OS.
or how someone wouldn't want desktop icons cluttering their shit
And if you don't want icons that means others shouldn't get them either? Let's apply the same logic to cars: I don't want heated seats, because I'm never cold, so cars shouldn't have this feature!
Personally, I think desktop icons are archaic given you've got stuff like launchers, docks, taskbar shortcuts, plenty of stuff that takes 3 seconds to get used to
You free up the desktop for what purpose? What function does it serve if it's empty? Still this is about giving options, just because the function is there doesn't mean you have to use it. I never could understand people campaigning against features that are optional.
 

blackmomba

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How silly what sounds? It's just an example of linux being difficult. And by difficult I don't mean beyond people's capabilities, but that it should be more straightforward. It might come as news but most people want to use their computer OOB, not tinker with it, and learn how to set things up from terminal, how to give permissions, etc etc. A regular user should never need any of this.

You've been told you can create your precious desktop icons with Kubuntu out of the box. Is it ok for people to know about the alternate DE flavors that are listed on canonicals website? Or is that also too difficult? Then again, there'd inevitably be something else you'd find that was apparently necessary but missing

Yes, and Ubuntu is one of those distros that is specifically aimed at desktop usage. And don't come with this oh just change from kde to gnome, or gnome to kde, because that's greek to most users, and they couldn't be bothered. I can't be bothered nowadays.

7 different environments to choose from and experiment with right alongside the regular ISO download. Choice.

This has nothing to do with hiding anything. Just because there is a send to desktop function in windows doesn't mean you can't browse to your desktop folder and manually copy a shortcut there.

You still don't get it. in order to access a common function you have to get under the hood and tinker with it. You wouldn't accept that in any other consumer product.

Like I said, if you're not comfortable with how Linux encourages you to customize your OS, maybe you should stick to windows? However, you should understand that this is you and not anyone else. Feature creep is a real thing and I'd rather development teams work on shit they want to instead of having to listen to every tom dick and Harry about what they think are 'basic' features

I blame the community for this mentality: "oh you are just too dumb for it" when I explained many times that I've been using linux for over a decade, for work, but now I look at it from the perspective of a home user who just wants a desktop OS.

A lot of distributions are perfectly fine as a desktop OS, they really are. You're just dispointed there isn't some windows clone running a Linux kernel because that's what's familiar to you and anything else is just to difficult (your words).

And if you don't want icons that means others shouldn't get them either? Let's apply the same logic to cars: I don't want heated seats, because I'm never cold, so cars shouldn't have this feature!

You free up the desktop for what purpose? What function does it serve if it's empty? Still this is about giving options, just because the function is there doesn't mean you have to use it. I never could understand people campaigning against features that are optional.

For me a desktop is a temporary space but most of the time it's empty. I don't need it to serve a purpose because I can use a launcher to run programs and directories to organize files.

Your ability to use a computer shouldn't live or die based on features as basic as desktop shortcuts.

Also, I don't think anyone wonders why Linux isn't more popular. I don't think anyone cares that much.
 

auntjemima

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I'm talking about IoT devices, servers, super computers. Just IoT themselves probably dwarf Windows installs by orders of magnitude.
Alright, without knowing what they run, are they running Linux or Unix? BSD?

Comparing a desktop OS argument to IoT is a bit disingenuous.
 

longblock454

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auntjemima

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I can speak for Ubiquity as I used to work with them, all of their devices are Linux, or used to be anyhow, been gone from there a couple years now.

The Cloud is another massive install base for Linux.
I would think if Linux is working for their needs they are probably still using it.

I guess I missed the let's wander out part, sorry!
 

travm

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Calling android Linux is like calling MacOS Linux or calling WindowsCE Windows. Doesn't fit, no bueno.
This is substantially incorrect. You are specifically talking about the Ubuntu distribution of Linux. Which I also think is trash, and don't use it for that reason. Ubuntu is not equal to Linux. Ubuntu is a child of, just like Android.
 

auntjemima

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This is substantially incorrect. You are specifically talking about the Ubuntu distribution of Linux. Which I also think is trash, and don't use it for that reason. Ubuntu is not equal to Linux. Ubuntu is a child of, just like Android.
Just because you "think it's trash", doesn't mean it isn't Linux. Lol, I can see your level of rationalization isn't really going to be beneficial to a continued conversation.
 

travm

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Just because you "think it's trash", doesn't mean it isn't Linux. Lol, I can see your level of rationalization isn't really going to be beneficial to a continued conversation.
You once told me to read the thread, which I had done. Perhaps read my post.
 

longblock454

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Android is kinda a unique discussion point. Yeah it's booting the Linux kernel, but that's about it. I used the IoT devices in my post cause I can SSH in, run standard Linux commands etc and they all work just like on the desktop. But yeah, we might have to further define the work install to discuss further.
 

travm

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Android is kinda a unique discussion point. Yeah it's booting the Linux kernel, but that's about it. I used the IoT devices in my post cause I can SSH in, run standard Linux commands etc and they all work just like on the desktop. But yeah, we might have to further define the work install to discuss further.
the linux kernel is what makes linux, linux. There is nothing more. Everything else is software that runs on linux.
 

longblock454

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the linux kernel is what makes linux, linux. There is nothing more. Everything else is software that runs on linux.

I get that, but I also get why some will argue against it, at the lowest level I agree that the kernel is what makes Linux, Linux.

To me personally, a Linux install is GNU/Linux, to which Android is not, but I agree it boots the Linux kernel, even if out of tree (is this still the case??).
 

Mazzspeed

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People are missing the point that there is a vast majority of the community that like Gnome, they add extensions and their desktop is just how they like it. Likewise, there are people that do not like Gnome, they switch to another DE and life is Roses.

What are people trying to claim? That we can't handle differing environments? People seemed to adopt iOS and Android just fine after decades of Windows usage, likewise they handle their smart TV and Apple TV just fine from the comfort of their sofa. We're literally surrounded by differing UI's, many within software itself - We adapt and move on just fine.

Linux adoption isn't as popular as Windows because Windows is already on the device when you buy it, it doesn't get any simpler than that and it's certainly got nothing to do with the fact that Windows is apparently easier to use.
 
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motqalden

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Whenever i use linux im constantly googling what should be simple stuff. On mint for example my mouse scroll wheel was super slow. Had to find some third party script just to change it. Windows you just search mouse. My keyboard light button doesnt work on linux without a script. Windows it just works. Want to change fan speeds on your second gpu in linux? More command line fun. Whats that black screen after trying the third guide to enable it? Time to google howto recover from backup... i could go on...
 

auntjemima

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Whenever i use linux im constantly googling what should be simple stuff. On mint for example my mouse scroll wheel was super slow. Had to find some third party script just to change it. Windows you just search mouse. My keyboard light button doesnt work on linux without a script. Windows it just works. Want to change fan speeds on your second gpu in linux? More command line fun. Whats that black screen after trying the third guide to enable it? Time to google howto recover from backup... i could go on...
Those are FEATURES.
 

travm

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Whenever i use linux im constantly googling what should be simple stuff. On mint for example my mouse scroll wheel was super slow. Had to find some third party script just to change it. Windows you just search mouse. My keyboard light button doesnt work on linux without a script. Windows it just works. Want to change fan speeds on your second gpu in linux? More command line fun. Whats that black screen after trying the third guide to enable it? Time to google howto recover from backup... i could go on...
This is a very legitimate complaint.


Im not sure anymore, but I think this thread started with a complaint about Ubuntu not being able to easily create desktop icons, that was generalized to all Linux can't create desktop icons, which is patently false.
 

Mazzspeed

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Whenever i use linux im constantly googling what should be simple stuff. On mint for example my mouse scroll wheel was super slow. Had to find some third party script just to change it. Windows you just search mouse. My keyboard light button doesnt work on linux without a script. Windows it just works. Want to change fan speeds on your second gpu in linux? More command line fun. Whats that black screen after trying the third guide to enable it? Time to google howto recover from backup... i could go on...
When X11 was the predominant window manager, you could control scroll speed. With Gnome devs pushing Wayland adoption and making it the default window manager, Libinput is the only input driver that works with Wayland and Libinput doesn't offer the functionality to change scroll speed.

So, once again, Gnome devs do their best to lock down Linux as an environment and in the process expected features are removed. However, Wayland does look like it will depreciate X11 at some stage. I believe that you can adjust scroll speed running Wayland under KDE Neon, but take that with a grain of salt as I avoid Wayland at this stage in favor of X11.

Having said that, I did copy paste a few commands using one button in terminal and now my scroll speed is perfect. My keyboard/mouse backlighting is fully configurable using the Polychromatic Controller software, however I researched my purchase first as it only works with Razer devices.

Since changing my scroll speed I've never thought of it again, the change has stuck through multiple KDE Neon upgrades.
 
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blackmomba

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For Corsair devices I've been using ckb-next which you can find on GitHub. It's a little buggy under 22.04 but it gives me pretty much everything i need that iCue does in windows
 

GoldenTiger

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Linux adoption isn't as popular as Windows because Windows is already on the device when you buy it, it doesn't get any simpler than that and it's certainly got nothing to do with the fact that Windows is apparently easier to use.
You keep telling yourself that. If Linux on the desktop had anything much to offer it would have more than a roughly 1% market share. I explained to you a lot of why it doesn't but you just dismissed it with handwaving.
 

Mazzspeed

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All I'm really reading here is that a minority think Linux should mimic Windows, like Windows is some benchmark other operating systems should aspire to. Obviously this isn't the case and Linux is Linux, Linux is not Windows - Therefore some relearned muscle memory and concepts will be needed.

If you aren't prepared to learn something new, stick with whatever you know. There was a time when you knew nothing about Windows, and yet over time you learned how to use it. Learning to use a new OS such as Linux is absoultely no different.
 

Mazzspeed

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You keep telling yourself that. If Linux on the desktop had anything much to offer it would have more than a roughly 1% market share. I explained to you a lot of why it doesn't but you just dismissed it with handwaving.
I will, and I will because it's quite factual. There was no hand waving as the point that Windows is on 99% of all desktop devices upon purchase is in line with reality.

As Linux users, we may 2%, but we're the top 2%. Furthermore, as a result of browser changes in an attempt to increase a user's privacy, collecting statistics on OS usage is becoming increasingly difficult and inaccurate - Even Netmarketshare stopped publishing such results in 2020.
 

Axman

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It's super-simple. There's no money for developing a good desktop environment for Linux.

All of the money goes into servers and IOT. Desktop is basically a bunch of hobbyists loaning their time. Some of them have built their own little ponds where they can be big fish in, commanding to others how things should be used, with a blanket of superiority to say that if you don't like it, you can always use another desktop environment designed by a different zealot.
 

Mazzspeed

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It's super-simple. There's no money for developing a good desktop environment for Linux.

All of the money goes into servers and IOT. Desktop is basically a bunch of hobbyists loaning their time. Some of them have built their own little ponds where they can be big fish in, commanding to others how things should be used, with a blanket of superiority to say that if you don't like it, you can always use another desktop environment designed by a different zealot.
I believe KDE devs are paid by Valve to develop their DE for the Steam Deck. I run KDE and my desktop experience is perfect with the exception of the fact that under X11 I cannot control mouse scroll speed via the GUI. If mouse scroll speed GUI adjustment is my only compromise, I'm quite happy to live with that.

Canonical is a company that contributes to the Linux desktop, as is Red Hat.
 

longblock454

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Is Linux on the desktop an important metric?

Perhaps IoT/Servers/Cloud/Infrastructure/etc are more telling?
 
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