Will Zen 4 be the real deal and a worthy upgrade from Zen 3

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Your thoughts. I have heard mixed reviews. No one will know for sure until it is out. Its set for September 15 barely under 3 months away.

How much performance improvement do you see for gaming and future high end video cards installed in a Zen 3 vs Zen 4 system with same core count CPU. Do you think Zen 4 will make a big difference?

Will Zen 4 age much better than Zen 3 for handling future high end video cards and future games while still having good performance compared to Zen 3??

Does the fact Zen 4 will be on a new platform going to make it age better if you do not care about more USB ports nor PCIE Gen 5 other than video cards that may use it but not at all for SSDs or other things??
 
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Spirit_Retro

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Your thoughts. I have heard mixed reviews. No one will know for sure until it is out. Its set for September 15 barely under 3 months away.

How much performance improvement do you see for gaming and future high end video cards installed in a Zen 3 vs Zen 4 system with same core count CPU. Do you think Zen 4 will make a big difference?

Will Zen 4 age much better than Zen 3 for handling future high end video cards and future games while still having good performance compared to Zen 3??

Does the fact Zen 4 will be on a new platform going to make it age better if you do not care about more USB ports nor PCIE Gen 5 other than video cards that may use it but not at all for SSDs or other things??

Well, the way I see it I don't care.

We've had so much increase in performance over the last 10 years, that except for content creators, no one is hurting for performance with a relatively modern processor.

Zen 4 could end up being "Pip farting on a snare drum" and it makes no difference.
 
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funkydmunky

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As far as I see it everything is ONE step more modern. There is nothing revolutionary there, just a modern logical upgrade.
We won't be let down unless one expects some unknown "super" features that make everything previous obsolete. When was the last time we saw that?
 

applegrcoug

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Well, the way I see it I don't care.

We've had so much increase in performance over the last 10 years, that except for content creators, no one is hurting for performance with a relatively modern processor.

Zen 4 could end up being "Pip farting on a snare drum" and it makes no difference.
This is what I think too...

Think about a 4790k from eight years ago paired with a 1080ti...it can handle a lot. Ray tracing is about all it can't do.

Maybe a year and a half ago to play flight sim you needed more, but they redid it to make it run better.
 

learners permit

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I won't be going Zen4 until the 3D cache chips are out and bios mature enough to not be a pain in the ass for the transition. By then DDR5 prices won't be ignorant and maybe a bit faster memory chips available as well. Gonna grab the 5800X3D and see how AMD's first attempt at stacked cash goes since the processors warranty period will more than cover the entire duration of my wait for Zen4 3D and DDR5.
 

Spirit_Retro

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As far as I see it everything is ONE step more modern. There is nothing revolutionary there, just a modern logical upgrade.
We won't be let down unless one expects some unknown "super" features that make everything previous obsolete. When was the last time we saw that?

Thunderbird? Athlon X4?
 

Domingo

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Depends on what kind of Zen 3 setup you have and what resolution you're going to be gaming at. If you have a decent processor right now, you don't really have much reason to care. Especially if you're gaming at 4K (or anything above 1440p) where the CPU only barely matters anyway. However if you're rocking a lower-end model or are gaming at lower resolutions, it's a much bigger deal. You have to look at what Intel has or is rolling out soon, too. I, obviously, like that something legitimately new is inbound, but I don't see it as a purchase people with non-aging systems will care about for a little while.
 

evhvis

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For about 95% it would be a waste going from 5800x or higher to Zen 4. Gains will most likely be similar to Zen 2+ to Zen 3, maybe a bit less or a bit more. It mainly makes sense for those with very heavy workloads, older CPUs (Zen 2+ or older) or low core count CPUs (5600x etc.). For the rest it is mostly about having to have the newest stuff or bragging rights.

IMO it makes sense to wait for the second generation AM5 chipsets and CPUs along with more mature DDR5 platform, rather than going with Zen 4. Lots of new stuff on Zen 4, including a new memory controller. AMD had some major issues with the launch of AM4 and I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few issues with first gen AM5 boards as well.
 
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For about 95% it would be a waste going from 5800x or higher to Zen 4. Gains will most likely be similar to Zen 2+ to Zen 3, maybe a bit less or a bit more. It mainly makes sense for those with very heavy workloads, older CPUs (Zen 2+ or older) or low core count CPUs (5600x etc.). For the rest it is mostly about having to have the newest stuff or bragging rights.

IMO it makes sense to wait for the second generation AM5 chipsets and CPUs along with more mature DDR5 platform, rather than going with Zen 4. Lots of new stuff on Zen 4, including a new memory controller. AMD had some major issues with the launch of AM4 and I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few issues with first gen AM5 boards as well.
I mostly agree but I don't think it would even be worth it much to upgrade from the 5600X. It would be pretty costly as in addition to the CPU upgrade, you'd need a new MB, and new RAM unless you already have DDR5, which my assumption is that most people running a 5600X don't.
I'd definitely wait for Zen 5 so AMD can work out the kinks with AM5 first. The only exception I could think of is if their next-gen GPUs require PCIe 5.0, you'd need a new MB and therefore a new CPU and DDR5 RAM as well, but I find this extremely unlikely, even for their highest-end cards.
 

TheSlySyl

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I'm pretty sure it'll be the real deal and it'll have great performance uplifts when it comes to FPS and Producitivity.

I personally won't be biting until at least the second generation AM5 platforms, chips and more mature DDR5 RAM. I had all sorts of issues at AM4 launch and my AM4 system, recently upgraded with a 5950X, will likely be more than adequate to last me for quite a few years. Honestly I'm expecting it to last until the next console generation and 8k or 4k120+fps become a standard.
 
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Depends on what kind of Zen 3 setup you have and what resolution you're going to be gaming at. If you have a decent processor right now, you don't really have much reason to care. Especially if you're gaming at 4K (or anything above 1440p) where the CPU only barely matters anyway. However if you're rocking a lower-end model or are gaming at lower resolutions, it's a much bigger deal. You have to look at what Intel has or is rolling out soon, too. I, obviously, like that something legitimately new is inbound, but I don't see it as a purchase people with non-aging systems will care about for a little while.


Well actually I game at 1440p exactly. Is above 1440p only to care, or even at that resolution should I care with a 5900X. Cause I do not game at 4K

And yes I have l looked at what Intel has rolling out and has come out with. I was at a time intrigued by Alder Lake, but I did not care at all for the hybrid arch and e cores after trying it. And Intel being stuck at 8 performance cores max and sadly Raptor Lake going to be more of the same with more e cores. If only Intel had more than 8 P cores, I would likely go with them. But then there is the insanely bad power consumption leading to insanely hard to keep cool CPUIs which has turned me away. A shame a company as big as Intel with as much money and resources as they have cannot make a CPU with more than 8 performance cores and have better thermals. That has made me rule them out and go all out AMD now.
 
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For about 95% it would be a waste going from 5800x or higher to Zen 4. Gains will most likely be similar to Zen 2+ to Zen 3, maybe a bit less or a bit more. It mainly makes sense for those with very heavy workloads, older CPUs (Zen 2+ or older) or low core count CPUs (5600x etc.). For the rest it is mostly about having to have the newest stuff or bragging rights.

IMO it makes sense to wait for the second generation AM5 chipsets and CPUs along with more mature DDR5 platform, rather than going with Zen 4. Lots of new stuff on Zen 4, including a new memory controller. AMD had some major issues with the launch of AM4 and I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few issues with first gen AM5 boards as well.


As for 2nd generation AM5 platforms, will there even be any before Zen 5? I mean aftercall AMD released X570 as the flagship for Zen 2 and never released another chipset for Zen 3? It was X570 and the slightly stepped down B550 that were the flagships and stayed on for Zen 3 with no new releases unless you count motherboard makers making fanless chipsets and updated motherboard revisions of X570 and B550 well after Zen 3 came out as 2nd generation chipsets?? Not sure why AMD released new chipsets for Zen and Zen+ and Zen 2, but not Zen 3 when Zen 3 was the best.
 

bobzdar

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I think if you want 5800x3d gaming perf but with 16 cores it'll be worth it, but outside of that kind of doubtful given the cost of ddr5 and lack of any pcie5 peripherals. Pcie4 doesn't even make much difference yet.
 

bigbluefe

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Your thoughts. I have heard mixed reviews. No one will know for sure until it is out. Its set for September 15 barely under 3 months away.

How much performance improvement do you see for gaming and future high end video cards installed in a Zen 3 vs Zen 4 system with same core count CPU. Do you think Zen 4 will make a big difference?

Will Zen 4 age much better than Zen 3 for handling future high end video cards and future games while still having good performance compared to Zen 3??

Does the fact Zen 4 will be on a new platform going to make it age better if you do not care about more USB ports nor PCIE Gen 5 other than video cards that may use it but not at all for SSDs or other things??

Sadly it's going to be like most AMD cpus. "OMG IT'S SO GREAT IT'S THE BEST EVER" and then Intel has a faster part out within 6 months.
 

kirbyrj

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Sadly it's going to be like most AMD cpus. "OMG IT'S SO GREAT IT'S THE BEST EVER" and then Intel has a faster part out within 6 months.

The fact that AMD has better performance per watt and takes the performance crown periodically at all is pretty impressive given their respective R&D budgets. Besides it was more than 6 months between Zen 3 and ADL, and ADL doesn't beat Zen 3 the way Zen 3 beat CML/RKL.

Personally, the closer in performance the two are and the more they push the other means better performance and prices for consumers.
 

Domingo

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I appreciate that AMD and Intel both have viable parts focused on performance. After the Athlon K7 days, AMD was essentially what you bought if you were looking to save money. That's obviously no longer the case. Even if one company has the faster part at a given moment, they're both neck and neck and there are usually caveats to one or the other.
 
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I don't see any big gains if you already have a Zen 3 CPU. I'm still on intel 9th gen and waiting to see how Zen 4/RaptorL perform. But given that I'm not struggling for fps in just about any game I play I'm less inclined to even upgrade then. I thought direct storage might be implemented a lot sooner than it seems to be which would be the main reason I'd upgrade. I'll probably just wait longer and spend it on a 40 series card.
 

bigbluefe

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I don't see any big gains if you already have a Zen 3 CPU. I'm still on intel 9th gen and waiting to see how Zen 4/RaptorL perform. But given that I'm not struggling for fps in just about any game I play I'm less inclined to even upgrade then. I thought direct storage might be implemented a lot sooner than it seems to be which would be the main reason I'd upgrade. I'll probably just wait longer and spend it on a 40 series card.

If you're being wildly optimistic, DirectStorage in games might be commonplace in 5 years. Movement on stuff like that is glacial. Almost everyone is just using an engine, almost everything that's going to be released within the next few years is already too far enough along to make big changes, etc. And to make matters worse, it looks like the performance difference isn't even that great unless you're on Windows 11, which narrows its appeal even more. Windows 10 doesn't have all the plumbing that DirectStorage uses to actually be faster.
 
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If you're being wildly optimistic, DirectStorage in games might be commonplace in 5 years. Movement on stuff like that is glacial. Almost everyone is just using an engine, almost everything that's going to be released within the next few years is already too far enough along to make big changes, etc. And to make matters worse, it looks like the performance difference isn't even that great unless you're on Windows 11, which narrows its appeal even more. Windows 10 doesn't have all the plumbing that DirectStorage uses to actually be faster.
Yeah it kind of sucks. I figured since the consoles had it it would be implemented a lot faster. And it will most likely make me take significantly longer to update to W11.
 

LukeTbk

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Could take a while if we go by the comments of both UE and Unity:

Unfortunately, DirectStorage not simple to implement. While the API is pretty straightforward, 90% of the benefit that you get from it is from restructuring how the engine ingests data. It's not unlike the shift from DirectX 11 to DirectX 12. So even if we decide to do this, it will take some time.

Ubisoft seem near ready:

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora​

Seem to point to use it for example, a "2022" title

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/8018...powers-avatar-frontiers-of-pandora/index.html
Microsoft's foray into the DirectStorage API is helping Ubisoft and the upgraded Snowdrop engine with Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, with Jansen, adding: "You're flying at enormous high speeds on a Banshee over this very, very detailed landscape. It doesn't matter how much we can render, unless we can stream it in as fast when we're moving very fast from one place to another. So just this shift to these newer hard drives, it can't be underestimated because, and it really has a lot of implications".

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora will drop on the next-gen Xbox Series X/S and PlayStation 5 consoles, as well as the PC, sometime in 2022.


Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/8018...powers-avatar-frontiers-of-pandora/index.html
 

Spirit_Retro

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I'm pretty sure it'll be the real deal and it'll have great performance uplifts when it comes to FPS and Producitivity.

I personally won't be biting until at least the second generation AM5 platforms, chips and more mature DDR5 RAM. I had all sorts of issues at AM4 launch and my AM4 system, recently upgraded with a 5950X, will likely be more than adequate to last me for quite a few years. Honestly I'm expecting it to last until the next console generation and 8k or 4k120+fps become a standard.

Agree with your thoughts.

From my standpoint moving from 3700X to a 5950X on x570 just made sense. 16 core/32 threads buys a lot of useful lifetime at a price that excludes a new board and new RAM.

This is especially true if you are making money with the computer. Gaming is important to me- but my profession more so. I'm also involved in other computationally intensive tasks which are part of my hobbies.

People's needs for gaming are different. As a consumer I always buy based on hardware threads. SMT is nice. But hardware cores are king.

As for Zen 4: I'm not excited. I'm interested. But usually move to a new platform in the middle of it's lifetime so the bugs have been more or less worked out.
 

bigbluefe

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Could take a while if we go by the comments of both UE and Unity:

Unfortunately, DirectStorage not simple to implement. While the API is pretty straightforward, 90% of the benefit that you get from it is from restructuring how the engine ingests data. It's not unlike the shift from DirectX 11 to DirectX 12. So even if we decide to do this, it will take some time.

Ubisoft seem near ready:

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora​

Seem to point to use it for example, a "2022" title

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/8018...powers-avatar-frontiers-of-pandora/index.html
Microsoft's foray into the DirectStorage API is helping Ubisoft and the upgraded Snowdrop engine with Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, with Jansen, adding: "You're flying at enormous high speeds on a Banshee over this very, very detailed landscape. It doesn't matter how much we can render, unless we can stream it in as fast when we're moving very fast from one place to another. So just this shift to these newer hard drives, it can't be underestimated because, and it really has a lot of implications".

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora will drop on the next-gen Xbox Series X/S and PlayStation 5 consoles, as well as the PC, sometime in 2022.


Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/8018...powers-avatar-frontiers-of-pandora/index.html

I still think people are being too optimistic about the rate of adoption. We have decades of history to look back on this stuff. It took forever for companies to start using basically any new technology whether it was bump mapping, pixel shaders, etc. Also, I follow the Microsoft developer Discord and you can still see the Microsoft DS developers saying that they're still working on basic stuff. It ain't there yet.
 

LukeTbk

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I still think people are being too optimistic about the rate of adoption.
Feel it depends on how similar to Xbox direct storage the PC version is (in the hard part the way you design the engine to use/feed data), how far in advance how the Xbox will work was communitated and how much people cared back in the days.

In 2023-2024 direct storage could be a 5 year’s old among devs affair.

Maybe why there is rumoured title about to come out a la Forskpoken, because the latest console side already started that way to design stuff to take advantage of very fast access to giant amount of texture data by the GPU and the way to compress/package them.

If current users of Unity/EU 5 cannot convert their project to them we could be looking at 3-4 year<s minimum, if every nanite users (or nanite like for competitive engine) get to use it once it get implemented it could be quite fast to be common by 2024-2025 (with random title having it and being a bullet point about them before that), which would still be 4-5 year’s post Xbox fast storage release.

I feel anything you buy now is not that relevant if you are a frequent upgrader and I am still really unsure for the save CPU workload part benefit on the PC side considering how good CPU got relative to gaming demand, specially when you have 20+ threads.
 
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I think if you want 5800x3d gaming perf but with 16 cores it'll be worth it, but outside of that kind of doubtful given the cost of ddr5 and lack of any pcie5 peripherals. Pcie4 doesn't even make much difference yet.


Like meaning do you think the standard Zen 4 16 core part will give 5800 XD gaming performance or better than it? Or will we have to wait for the 3D-VCACHE versions of Zen 4 first?
 
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The fact that AMD has better performance per watt and takes the performance crown periodically at all is pretty impressive given their respective R&D budgets. Besides it was more than 6 months between Zen 3 and ADL, and ADL doesn't beat Zen 3 the way Zen 3 beat CML/RKL.

Personally, the closer in performance the two are and the more they push the other means better performance and prices for consumers.


Heck yes it is. AMD has done am impressive job indeed and really right now only option I look at it as Intel is not so good beyond 8 cores as they cannot get more and I do not at all care for the hybrid arch and e core latency is horrible. With AMD you can get more than 8 p cores.

Its quite a shame Intel cannot get more than 8 performance cores on a single CPU node on latest mainstream platform given the vast amount of resources and money Intel has compared to AMD. Golden Cove is really good but sucks it is capped at 8 cores and Raptor Lake will sadly be the same just with far more e cores uhh!!:(

And certainly Golden Cove does not beat Zen 3 even close to how Zen 3 beat Rocket Lake and Comet Lake or how Conroe beat AMD K8 especially at same clock speed. Though Golden Cove can clock higher which also helps.
 
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Agree with your thoughts.

From my standpoint moving from 3700X to a 5950X on x570 just made sense. 16 core/32 threads buys a lot of useful lifetime at a price that excludes a new board and new RAM.

This is especially true if you are making money with the computer. Gaming is important to me- but my profession more so. I'm also involved in other computationally intensive tasks which are part of my hobbies.

People's needs for gaming are different. As a consumer I always buy based on hardware threads. SMT is nice. But hardware cores are king.

As for Zen 4: I'm not excited. I'm interested. But usually move to a new platform in the middle of it's lifetime so the bugs have been more or less worked out.


Yeah I agree. I buy based on cores and not SMT/HT. In fact I turn that off as I like real cores/threads. With 12 real cores, that is plenty for gaming and in fact overkill. but overkill in a good way as games start to scale with more cores. 16 cores is probably more than overkill for gaming and much harder to cool. Though for you in your profession it is great.
 
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I appreciate that AMD and Intel both have viable parts focused on performance. After the Athlon K7 days, AMD was essentially what you bought if you were looking to save money. That's obviously no longer the case. Even if one company has the faster part at a given moment, they're both neck and neck and there are usually caveats to one or the other.


Don't you mean after Athlon 64 K8 days? Athlon 64 K8 was spanking Intel starting late 2003 until July 2006 when Intel dropped the superior Conroe and rest was history for AMD until AMD came out with Zen 2 which made parity with Intel Coffee Lake clock for clock and had higher core counts and was only option for more than 10 cores as it had parity clock for clock and core for core vs Comet Lake. Though Comet Lake at same core count had a slight advantage as IPC was so close, but it could clock higher. Then Zen 3 and blew Intel out until Alder Lake. I mean Conroe from what I remember had like 20-25% better IPC across the board and overlocked so much easier and higher with same power consumption and much less power consumption at stock than K8. Even Golden Cove from Alder Lake has only 10-15% IPC over Zen 3 and not always as much across the board compared to Conroe and has much worse power consumption and as such heat output. And AMD has answers where as Intel is still struggling with their process node as seen by delays in Meteor Lake and Sapphire Rapids.
 

learners permit

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As for 2nd generation AM5 platforms, will there even be any before Zen 5? I mean aftercall AMD released X570 as the flagship for Zen 2 and never released another chipset for Zen 3? It was X570 and the slightly stepped down B550 that were the flagships and stayed on for Zen 3 with no new releases unless you count motherboard makers making fanless chipsets and updated motherboard revisions of X570 and B550 well after Zen 3 came out as 2nd generation chipsets?? Not sure why AMD released new chipsets for Zen and Zen+ and Zen 2, but not Zen 3 when Zen 3 was the best.
Unless u care about frame time I guess.
 

Meeho

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How much performance improvement do you see for gaming and future high end video cards installed in a Zen 3 vs Zen 4 system with same core count CPU. Do you think Zen 4 will make a big difference?
No.

Will Zen 4 age much better than Zen 3 for handling future high end video cards and future games while still having good performance compared to Zen 3??
No.

Does the fact Zen 4 will be on a new platform going to make it age better if you do not care about more USB ports nor PCIE Gen 5 other than video cards that may use it but not at all for SSDs or other things??
No.
 

funkydmunky

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My mistake: Athlon 64, Clawhammer era.... Socket 939....
Sure, sure. And the first X2's. But my point was Zen 4 is just going to be incrementally better, it incorporates all the new bells and whistles but won't be revolutionary like the OP hopes and nor does it need to be. It will be a platform going forward. Unless they pull an Intel and erase it in one year when they have stated a AM5 launch?
Who really knows :ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

WilyKit

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Quite content with my 3900x at the moment. Unless some killer game comes out with absolute shit optimization that hugely benefits from single core performance, I’ll be sticking to this setup for several more years.
 

Spirit_Retro

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Sure, sure. And the first X2's. But my point was Zen 4 is just going to be incrementally better, it incorporates all the new bells and whistles but won't be revolutionary like the OP hopes and nor does it need to be. It will be a platform going forward. Unless they pull an Intel and erase it in one year when they have stated a AM5 launch?
Who really knows :ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Oh I understood the point. And it's a good point.

The only thing I'm thinking is that if we see an incremental performance increase, coupled with generally larger core count, and then add the 3d cache in on top of it- it may end up being more significant.

I'm not saying it will be. It's just a possibility. Of course it might be a dog as well. Unlikely. But still possible. Until users have silicon in hand no one will really know.
 
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https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000-raphael-x-zen-4-v-cache-desktop-cpu-launch-late-2022-confirmed/

AMD appears they are going to release Raphael-X CPUs with the 3D V-CACHE in November or December 2022. That tells me IPC and overall performance uplift is likely to be underwhelming compared to Zen 3? Otherwise why so soon afterwards to release 3D VCACHE versions if the standard versions were so much better??

Does not appear it will be the Zen 2 to Zen 3 uplift I had hoped for across the board.

Competition among Intel and AMD is very strong and both have their good and weak points. Unfortunately neither has a Conroe moment right now nor really ever did in last few years despite the progress. Don't get me wrong, I do not mean a Conroe moment to drive the other out to the point where competition is lax on the other side. What I mean is a Conroe moment where the other can respond. Zen 3 was maybe closest thing to Conroe moment from AMD, but even it was known to be coming and even it does not overclock as easily as Conroe did compared. Then Alder Lake from Intel with Golden Cove cores, but even they were not a Conroe moment and even less so than Zen 3 over Comet Lake as IPC uplift is less and not as pronounced across the board and still stuck at 8 p cores uhh!!

https://chipsandcheese.com/2021/12/02/popping-the-hood-on-golden-cove/
 

WilyKit

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AMD released 3D VCACHE not because 5k series wasn't significantly better than the 3k but because they were responding to Intel. In addition, the 5800x3d showed significant gaming improvements in many games. A non 3d Zen 4 might not be significantly better than a 5800x3d in those situations, so why not make one available to also give those users something to upgrade to?
 
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AMD released 3D VCACHE not because 5k series wasn't significantly better than the 3k but because they were responding to Intel. In addition, the 5800x3d showed significant gaming improvements in many games. A non 3d Zen 4 might not be significantly better than a 5800x3d in those situations, so why not make one available to also give those users something to upgrade to?

Well yeah 5000 series CPUs were significantly better than 3000. And yeah they released 58003DX to respond to Intel. But why so soon to release 3D VCACHE on Ryzen 7000? Perhaps is Ryzen 7000 regular non-VCACHE CPUs going to be released within a month and ahead of schedule to get lots of sales. Because if 3D VCACHE chips are released only 2 months after regular Zen 4 in September, many will just wait for 3D VCACHE versions??
 
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