Spiritual Sequel To The Old DOS Warhammer 40k Chaos Gate: Daemon Hunters

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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Alot of these Warhammer games look good but alot if them fall flat this has everything but could be great. The last Games Workshop title I picked up I didn't care for much the one with Drizit. There was that Necromunda game that looked awesome was afraid to pick it up with the coop ai dog.
 

mstersmith

Weaksauce
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Alot of these Warhammer games look good but alot if them fall flat this has everything but could be great. The last Games Workshop title I picked up I didn't care for much the one with Drizit. There was that Necromunda game that looked awesome was afraid to pick it up with the coop ai dog.
I have no idea how an IP with so much raw potential always falls flat on its face. I know it has a lot to do with the internal politics of GW. Have to take the bad with the good I suppose.
 

Armenius

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I have no idea how an IP with so much raw potential always falls flat on its face. I know it has a lot to do with the internal politics of GW. Have to take the bad with the good I suppose.
Probably because GW hands out the license to anybody who wants it, but GW really has been rotting away from within for the past couple decades.
 
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Alot of these Warhammer games look good but alot if them fall flat this has everything but could be great. The last Games Workshop title I picked up I didn't care for much the one with Drizit. There was that Necromunda game that looked awesome was afraid to pick it up with the coop ai dog.

Drizit is D&D not GW.
I have no idea how an IP with so much raw potential always falls flat on its face. I know it has a lot to do with the internal politics of GW. Have to take the bad with the good I suppose.

I've been into it in the late 80s and know a few people that work for GW and the situation is pretty screwy. Long post you are warned.

They have an issue where the fun stuff in their IP is so totally crazy you can't always do it justice outside of table top/book method. You couldn't get a proper 40k live action movie published because the sheer need for CGI and top notch effects would prevent you from making it as violent, abusive, sex and drugs, mocking of religion and right wing view points (which is what 40k actually is all about in it's lore) that it truly is. You'd had everybody coming at you from every angle about how horrible awful it was and people would freak. The games sort of reflect this where they dodge what's actually going on like 40k space marine, or hide all the truly screwed up stuff they actually do (Vermintide). So their stuff comes out as this wierd sort of cartoonish knockoff while avoiding the deeper lore that makes it fun.

Some of the games are pretty good though. Some of the DOW, Chaos Gate, Space Marine, Vermintide, Blood Bowl, are all good. Total War is good as well. But you can't show the IPs actual political view points and tounge in cheek message (conservatism, very bad, ruined everything, the Empire was against it and religion) or the actual horror of what the factions do (there is how you make space marines, penitent engines, or the skavens massive brood beats, slave factories, rampant cannabilism, and that's leaving out Slaneesh). They've had to tone down the IP in table top editions since the 80s because a lot of people did freak out Satanic Panic style over it "won't someone think of Jesus and the children" which is sort of sad.

They don't know what to do internally and are mired in issues. They have people showing up in Nazi unfiroms to 40k events not realizing that it's offensive or that half the point of 40k is lampoon and mocking the hell out of the right, even though they state that explicity and repeatedly. They had to tone the hell down out of Slaneesh because of the entire sex and drugs angle and parents freaked when they realized what the lore actually says. They still have some of the darker stuff like penitent engines (which look up for a laugh) but they sort of avoid the "how that happened issue" now. And a lot of their former writers (Matt Ward) screwed the actual lore beyond belief so now there are multiple competing cannons about what is actually what.

They are sort of in an odd place where what made their IP fun and unique when it was really cooked up in the 80s and they were handing out instructions of how to build a land speeder from an empty deoderant cannister or how to convert a whirlwind from a GI Joe is not possible now that they are main stream. They started out kinda punk rebelling against the Reagan/Thatcher era and social/religious conservatism as well and NEVER thought it would blow up like this. They can't really go back to it being publically traded and as big as they are. A lot of the classic books that set the lore like the old "Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned" simply could not be published today. Also the rampant mocking of Christianity that was the Imperium with the key point of the Emperors success being wiping out religion and his crushing of The Last Church with glee because destroying religion was the only way to take out Chaos and actually advance humanity won't fly now due to how big GW is. You also can't have a faction that cooks humans down to drugs and snorts them before going into orgies (though it's now hinted it). They often go pretty "Grim Dark" in their books but they have to steer clear of that in a video game where someone could see it on a screen. You can even look at the old art VS the new art and see the change. The old stuff was insane, the new stuff is really all generic if not cartoonish.

IMHO, it's suffered for it. GW was a lot more fun when it didn't take it self seriously and spent it's time goring scared cows and lampooning stuff with a healthy heaping of "we didn't give a fuck" but that's not where they are today. You can get an idea here: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-retro-three-decades-of-land-speeders.html you can see the evolution here
landspeeder.jpg
speeder 2.jpg
kharn1.jpg
kharn2.jpg



You can tell the art and the models from the era and that's kinda where things stand. The difference in styles is start. On the tabletop side of things now you at least have Forge World. Forgeworld is super expensive and ships in resin and costs several times the amount GW does. But as it's rather esoteric and niche they can still touch the areas GW doesn't want to. So you get crazy stuff from them in both model level and lore. And they openly go where GW used to. They are a subsidiary, but kept seperate in some ways legally which I think lets them get away with it. What's interesting is that Forge Worlds content doesn't really show up in their video games. And their army books gets openly into the really screwed up stuff that GW has sanitized out of the mainstream 40k books. A lot of the old schoolers only play Forge World now, and the rules are the older more complex version than the newer streamlined.

Which gets into another thing. Like the sanitizing of the lore, the swath of crappy games, the rules simplifying and the change from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar (that was a shit show and pissed a lot of people off) was done to please investors once they turned publically traded. Traded has also caused them to shut down fan content and hide it behind the "Warhammer Plus" paywall, which also hides unique miniatures as well. It's resulted in shitty hiring decisions as well. For example the return of Matt Ward. He's one of the leaders in fucking up the lore and army books but at the same time he did "increase sales" so it's a win for them. How he did this was bad though. In the Ward era each new codex/army book was more broken then then last. So to keep up with the meta you had to build a new army with each new release. Rather than picking your favorite army, which were not all equal but your luck changed via edition, it became pay to play with each new book. The era resulted in the shattering of fantasy into AOS and 40ks 8th edition. And all this idiocy resulted in the move of the old school 40k community moving to Forge World and oddly battletech.

Way too much ranting and writing and way too much inside baseball for most people. But the point is the company has gone schizophrenic since it was taken public which explains a lot of the current "WTF" about the stuff they license and pump out.
 

Dan_D

Extremely [H]
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Messages
60,415
I can't recall a single point in human history where the "spiritual successor" to any game was actually anywhere near as good as the original IP/Title that inspired it.
 
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I can't recall a single point in human history where the "spiritual successor" to any game was actually anywhere near as good as the original IP/Title that inspired it.

Ehhh GW has pulled off a couple of these oddly though. For example 40k is the successor to Rouge Trader and for a long time was widely viewed as better, until about 8e. 40k is NOT the original game by any stretch. And while I started in Rogue Trader it was hot damn mess of overly complex rules that could end up in hilarity at times. Along those same lines Epic 40k was the sucessor to Titan Legions and was vastly better. Both games were rather complex but Epic is vastly superior and remained so until the introduction of super titans like the Imperator. It's follow up Adeptus Titanicus is even better from every angle except having extra species (it's Horus Hersey era) but from every other aspect it's vastly superior.

I think it's possible to do while things are still small and plucky but once you hit a critical mass and can't take risks things stagnate and then backtrack.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
24,422
Drizit is D&D not GW.


I've been into it in the late 80s and know a few people that work for GW and the situation is pretty screwy. Long post you are warned.

They have an issue where the fun stuff in their IP is so totally crazy you can't always do it justice outside of table top/book method. You couldn't get a proper 40k live action movie published because the sheer need for CGI and top notch effects would prevent you from making it as violent, abusive, sex and drugs, mocking of religion and right wing view points (which is what 40k actually is all about in it's lore) that it truly is. You'd had everybody coming at you from every angle about how horrible awful it was and people would freak. The games sort of reflect this where they dodge what's actually going on like 40k space marine, or hide all the truly screwed up stuff they actually do (Vermintide). So their stuff comes out as this wierd sort of cartoonish knockoff while avoiding the deeper lore that makes it fun.

Some of the games are pretty good though. Some of the DOW, Chaos Gate, Space Marine, Vermintide, Blood Bowl, are all good. Total War is good as well. But you can't show the IPs actual political view points and tounge in cheek message (conservatism, very bad, ruined everything, the Empire was against it and religion) or the actual horror of what the factions do (there is how you make space marines, penitent engines, or the skavens massive brood beats, slave factories, rampant cannabilism, and that's leaving out Slaneesh). They've had to tone down the IP in table top editions since the 80s because a lot of people did freak out Satanic Panic style over it "won't someone think of Jesus and the children" which is sort of sad.

They don't know what to do internally and are mired in issues. They have people showing up in Nazi unfiroms to 40k events not realizing that it's offensive or that half the point of 40k is lampoon and mocking the hell out of the right, even though they state that explicity and repeatedly. They had to tone the hell down out of Slaneesh because of the entire sex and drugs angle and parents freaked when they realized what the lore actually says. They still have some of the darker stuff like penitent engines (which look up for a laugh) but they sort of avoid the "how that happened issue" now. And a lot of their former writers (Matt Ward) screwed the actual lore beyond belief so now there are multiple competing cannons about what is actually what.

They are sort of in an odd place where what made their IP fun and unique when it was really cooked up in the 80s and they were handing out instructions of how to build a land speeder from an empty deoderant cannister or how to convert a whirlwind from a GI Joe is not possible now that they are main stream. They started out kinda punk rebelling against the Reagan/Thatcher era and social/religious conservatism as well and NEVER thought it would blow up like this. They can't really go back to it being publically traded and as big as they are. A lot of the classic books that set the lore like the old "Realm of Chaos: The Lost And The Damned" simply could not be published today. Also the rampant mocking of Christianity that was the Imperium with the key point of the Emperors success being wiping out religion and his crushing of The Last Church with glee because destroying religion was the only way to take out Chaos and actually advance humanity won't fly now due to how big GW is. You also can't have a faction that cooks humans down to drugs and snorts them before going into orgies (though it's now hinted it). They often go pretty "Grim Dark" in their books but they have to steer clear of that in a video game where someone could see it on a screen. You can even look at the old art VS the new art and see the change. The old stuff was insane, the new stuff is really all generic if not cartoonish.

IMHO, it's suffered for it. GW was a lot more fun when it didn't take it self seriously and spent it's time goring scared cows and lampooning stuff with a healthy heaping of "we didn't give a fuck" but that's not where they are today. You can get an idea here: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-retro-three-decades-of-land-speeders.html you can see the evolution here
View attachment 464695View attachment 464696View attachment 464697View attachment 464698


You can tell the art and the models from the era and that's kinda where things stand. The difference in styles is start. On the tabletop side of things now you at least have Forge World. Forgeworld is super expensive and ships in resin and costs several times the amount GW does. But as it's rather esoteric and niche they can still touch the areas GW doesn't want to. So you get crazy stuff from them in both model level and lore. And they openly go where GW used to. They are a subsidiary, but kept seperate in some ways legally which I think lets them get away with it. What's interesting is that Forge Worlds content doesn't really show up in their video games. And their army books gets openly into the really screwed up stuff that GW has sanitized out of the mainstream 40k books. A lot of the old schoolers only play Forge World now, and the rules are the older more complex version than the newer streamlined.

Which gets into another thing. Like the sanitizing of the lore, the swath of crappy games, the rules simplifying and the change from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar (that was a shit show and pissed a lot of people off) was done to please investors once they turned publically traded. Traded has also caused them to shut down fan content and hide it behind the "Warhammer Plus" paywall, which also hides unique miniatures as well. It's resulted in shitty hiring decisions as well. For example the return of Matt Ward. He's one of the leaders in fucking up the lore and army books but at the same time he did "increase sales" so it's a win for them. How he did this was bad though. In the Ward era each new codex/army book was more broken then then last. So to keep up with the meta you had to build a new army with each new release. Rather than picking your favorite army, which were not all equal but your luck changed via edition, it became pay to play with each new book. The era resulted in the shattering of fantasy into AOS and 40ks 8th edition. And all this idiocy resulted in the move of the old school 40k community moving to Forge World and oddly battletech.

Way too much ranting and writing and way too much inside baseball for most people. But the point is the company has gone schizophrenic since it was taken public which explains a lot of the current "WTF" about the stuff they license and pump out.
Great post... I was curious about GW in general. I played Warhammer online and it still is my favorite mmorpg next to older daoc. Was kinda confused to hear about age of sigmar more recently.
 
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Great post... I was curious about GW in general. I played Warhammer online and it still is my favorite mmorpg next to older daoc. Was kinda confused to hear about age of sigmar more recently.

Warning another rant...


That game got a lot of things wrong as well. For example the model they use for N'Kari is all wrong. That's the model for Zaraknyel. N'Kari has a mans head with horns not and womans with tenticles and is masculine (though still hermaphrodite) and Zaraknyel is feminine (though again hermaphrodite). Also N'Kari is a demon prince at core though mannifests as a keeper of secrets (aka he was once a mortal but did some truly fucked up shit to get elevated) Zaraknyel is just a straight up pure demon keeper of secrets and tied for the strongest of them with slannesh with Shalaxi (kinda, Zarak is still a tad stronger but Shalaxi is the better duelist). All of them are depicted repeatedly in the art so everyone who's been into the game knows what they look like. N'Kari does not have a model, Zaraknyel has a mode from Forge World, Shalaxi has a model from Games Workshop.

How did this happen, the people who made Warhammer Online thought Zaraknyel looked cooler so they swapped the character model in. This created a fisaco for Total War Warhammer III where online game people who knew nothing of the lore wanted the "N'Kari model" for the keeper of secrets as N'Kari and the people who actually played table top poinint out that's not N'Kari and they didn't know what they are talking about and linking to Forge World and the Zaraknyel rule set. These sort of goofs happen all the time. Which is why even the best games (at least since they were 2D shit shows) get the entire lore and all sorts of details completely and utterly wrong. Total War is sort of rare here where it doesn't screw much up and use the right models for the right things. Everything else is a cluster fuck. 40k Space Marine makes a bunch of hilarious errors if you know the lore (melta guns do not work like that being a funny one).

A huge portion of this is due to GW though frantically retconning all the crazy out of it since they turned public while Forge World trucks on with the loony. FYI, Forge World is remaking Warhammer Fantasy as Warhammer The Old World so it's going to come back, which is also another "then why did GW cancel it in the first fucking place" moment, followed with "and why did I rebase all my fucking Dark Elves onto... round bases, ah fuck now I need to move them back to squares". So if you want to buy and paint some Warhammer Fantasy stuff, just wait it will be back!

Part of the confusion is that GW relies heavily on the "unreliable narrator" view point. Most people are hyper right wing religious conservative fuckwits and so cannot be trusted on anything because they just repeat the dogma that caused all the problem to start with and all these people are the actual problem and worthless. Then you have the people above them who manipulate them for power and money and such speak bullshit and lies. Then you have the handful of actors who know what the real truth is and are reliable but they don't openly state it because it would break the minds of most of the morons. Any normal person in either Warhammer who clues in to what's going on is either immediately wiped out or inducted into the elite and shuts the fuck up quick. So both universes have a bunch of Churchy morons, manipulative right wing feudalist assholes who are out and out fascists, and people who aren't saying shit about shit. All three factions run around offing anybody who isn't a bloody idiot. This sort of works "in theory" but it confuses the hell out of game designers and some of the novel writers. Because unless you know all of the lore, it's easy to go down a pathway into idiocy that is just flat out wrong. Which is why we get games that are plotline incoherent.

For N'Kari and jokes. Here's N'Kari Warhammer Online, and he's the official art of N'Kari vs Aenrion (big badass of the high elves) in the official art.... and then here is Zarakynel from Forge World, you can see where things went dumb. Also tossed in the "classic" keeper of secrets which was a horny moo moo cow with nipple rings and chains, and Shalaxi for shits and giggles.nkaritrue.jpgonline.jpgzaraknyel.jpgshalaxi.jpgrtrader.jpg
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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That Map in the above video is pretty sick not sure if it feels the same way when you play it hoping for another Mecahnicus game.
 

SeymourGore

2[H]4U
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I've been playing through 40K Battlesector and really enjoying it - nice to see quality turn-based 40K games being made.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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I just preordered it for the extra DLC content I got the DLX version.
I've been buying Steam Cards on my lunch break at work just recently again I found that I could use my 10% discount card on them again I wasn't able to for about 3 years or so but it kicked back in again so like for a 50.00 card I can get 5.00 off.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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Thise reviews must of just landed. I couldn't find anything two hours ago.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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Don't be put off by the starting tutorial it's needed..... but the game is better once it's over. Unlike alot of other turn based game I mean you can move like 20 squares and even teleport to an area or just cover the area with overwatch basically the maps don't follow traditional turn based games. There is controller support as well but I won't use it until I can figure out how to zoom in via middle mouse wheel.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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The game looks easy until you get back on your ship with wounded Knights.
So I reloaded my save and I didn't save during the battle.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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Messages
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There is a a multithreaded post on Steam saying this game is way too hard even on Normal going to switch to Easy.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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They are going to patch the game up I guess and there will be less penalties for wounded Soldiers. I'm not sure if I should keep my game or restart on Easy.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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I picked the game up again lol saved 18.00 on CD keys version.
I just saw another video going to start on easy.
 

Comixbooks

Fully [H]
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20220512112940_1.jpg


Finally a different enemy type than those peck guys who hide all over the place this game has a really steep learning curve.

Basically if you want to have fun do these 6 things..

1. Turn down your Native resolution so you eyes don't bleed stuff was like pins at 1080P on my 24"

2. Play with an X-BOX controller makes menus alot easier and moves for the game.

3. Don't be afraid to pass time in the game but I'm not sure if I'm playing the game right that way but it's the only way to advance.

4. The seed deal you gotta extract these seeds by melee trash mob guys then you can upgrade.

5. Upgrade and change loadouts make sure your guys are healed and use Armor and specials

6. Play on easy even that can be hard if your casual like me.
 
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